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Second guessing woodmizer order

Started by Busysawyer, April 26, 2018, 09:47:03 PM

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Busysawyer

I want to start by saying that woodmizer has been a great company to deal with so far. Originally we intended to buy a timber king 2200 or 2500 but when I found out they were at least four months out on delivery I didn't want to wait that long. I am really excited about getting our lt70 super wide head which now has a delivery set for May 23. I'm worried that a 46hp diesel is too small for a wide head 70 with hydraulic bed functions. Do any of you think this mill will be underpowered? Also a little disappointed that I recently found out that the mill is limited to 6ft extension. I called the other day to order an extension and was told 6ft is the max. I was under the impression from the website that I could get a bigger extension. It shows log capacity of 36" x 44.2'. To me it looks like misrepresentation of the product but maybe I'm reading wrong.  Another small disappointment  is when the mill was ordered I was told end of April first week of May for delivery and they are a couple weeks behind. No big deal , was just excited to be getting the mill soon and will have to tough it out for a couple more weeks. I am posting a screenshot from the build a lt70 off of woodmizer website and was wondering how you guys interpret the log capacity?

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Jeff

And why might I ask are you not picking up the phone and asking Wood-Mizer?
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Busysawyer

Quote from: Jeff on April 26, 2018, 09:58:19 PM
And why might I ask are you not picking up the phone and asking Wood-Mizer?
Im confused i guess. Asking woodmizer what? I've already asked them every possible question I could think of. I'm curious as if I'm the only consumer that is misunderstanding the capacity advertisements or if the guys here think a 46 hp is underpowered on this mill.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Jeff

That isn't what I found.

LT70 Super Hydraulic Portable Sawmill

Our fastest portable sawmill with deluxe engine-powered hydraulic log handling and head controls, pedestal control station, advanced board return, debarker, diesel power, 36" log diameter, 20'2" log length, and production up to 1050 bf/hr.



 
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Busysawyer

Quote from: Jeff on April 26, 2018, 10:06:20 PM
That isn't what I found.

LT70 Super Hydraulic Portable Sawmill

Our fastest portable sawmill with deluxe engine-powered hydraulic log handling and head controls, pedestal control station, advanced board return, debarker, diesel power, 36" log diameter, 20'2" log length, and production up to 1050 bf/hr.




Click build and price. I assumed the 20'2" was without extensions and when you go to build and price the first screen is showing the 44 so I improperly assumed that you could put an extension on to get that. It was explained to me why they cannot extend this mill like the others and it makes sense. I was just a little disappointed when I went to purchase an extension that I couldn't get what I wanted.  Another clue I should have picked up on is later in the build and price menus it shows options available. Transfer deck, incline conveyor etc. And lists a 6ft extension as an option. Me being ignorant and new to mills just saw that 44.2 number and assumed you could run big extensions like most woodmizer mills. It's not a deal breaker for me by any means , just naturally disappointed to find out I can't get what I thought I could. 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

gmmills

    Compared to my LT 70 DCS with a 55HP  Yanmar engine the 46 HP engine on the new LT70 Super Hydraulic is quite a step down in performance. I am due to upgrade to a new mill next year. Hoping WM will upgrade to a higher HP engine in the near future. Been hearing rumors, not yet confirmed, that there may be a new tier 4 compliant 55 HP engine offered some time this year. Hopefully Marty Parsons may be able to shed some light on the subject.

   The limitation of bed extension length is due to the fact the hyd lines are routed through a cat track chain. Would have to run longer hyd lines and additional sections of cat track to accommodate a longer bed extension
Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

WV Sawmiller

Beaver,

   Definitely call WM. As to the extensions when I go to the site I see they advertise 6', 12' & 24' extensions for everything from the LT28 to the LT70. Why do you think you can only get a 6' extension? How long a log do you expect to cut and do you have the support equipment to handle extremely long logs, beams and boards? From previous posts I thought you were pretty well set up.

   As to the engine size what size and species logs do you expect to cut? I'd bet money you will find you have plenty of power for what you will be cutting. 

   I think you are underestimating WM level of patience when dealing with their customers. Go ahead and ask away.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

SawyerTed

The 46 hp diesel should have no problem operating the the hydraulics.  Woodmizer doesn't have a reputation for under powering and over selling.  I started looking at the LT15 and my dealer was candid about my expectations and whether the LT15 would meet them.  It wasn't a sells tactic, it was honesty about the realistic capacity of the machine.  

The website says 6', 12' or 24' bed extensions are available, have you asked about that? 

Woodmizer has great customer service, aftermarket support and great quality.  It will be worth the wait.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Busysawyer

Quote from: gmmills on April 26, 2018, 10:26:17 PM
   Compared to my LT 70 DCS with a 55HP  Yanmar engine the 46 HP engine on the new LT70 Super Hydraulic is quite a step down in performance. I am due to upgrade to a new mill next year. Hoping WM will upgrade to a higher HP engine in the near future. Been hearing rumors, not yet confirmed, that there may be a new tier 4 compliant 55 HP engine offered some time this year. Hopefully Marty Parsons may be able to shed some light on the subject.

  The limitation of bed extension length is due to the fact the hyd lines are routed through a cat track chain. Would have to run longer hyd lines and additional sections of cat track to accommodate a longer bed extension

That is what they told me regarding extensions. I was also told that they will be going back to the 55hp sometime later this year.  The salesman didn't want me to get upset when I see a 55hp available in 6 months.

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on April 26, 2018, 10:27:45 PM
Beaver,

  Definitely call WM. As to the extensions when I go to the site I see they advertise 6', 12' & 24' extensions for everything from the LT28 to the LT70. Why do you think you can only get a 6' extension? How long a log do you expect to cut and do you have the support equipment to handle extremely long logs, beams and boards? From previous posts I thought you were pretty well set up.

  As to the engine size what size and species logs do you expect to cut? I'd bet money you will find you have plenty of power for what you will be cutting.

  I think you are underestimating WM level of patience when dealing with their customers. Go ahead and ask away.


I'm not sure if I would ever need the extension but after discussing it with my dad off and on for a couple weeks we decided to go for it. It days in the brochure that pricing on the extensions was for with a new mill purchase and we thought we would save money ordering it now as opposed to later. Most of what we will be milling is red oak, walnut, white oak and cherry. The first year or so I'd imagine we will be milling our own trees and most of them will be over 36in diameter. The lt70 that was at the mill I visited was running a 61hp turbo caterpillar I believe and that thing was fast.  

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Southside

It is my understanding that they are testing several different engines and have yet to decide on what one will be used moving ahead.  A couple of weeks back I was told 120 days before anything would be announced.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
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Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Busysawyer

Quote from: SawyerTed on April 26, 2018, 10:33:26 PM
The 46 hp diesel should have no problem operating the the hydraulics.  Woodmizer doesn't have a reputation for under powering and over selling.  I started looking at the LT15 and my dealer was candid about my expectations and whether the LT15 would meet them.  It wasn't a sells tactic, it was honesty about the realistic capacity of the machine.  

The website says 6', 12' or 24' bed extensions are available, have you asked about that?

Woodmizer has great customer service, aftermarket support and great quality.  It will be worth the wait.
Yes I have asked about why it shows 44.2' and why they show the extensions available in different lengths. As gmmills stated they can't run an extension on the cat track or hydraulics.  If you look at the design it makes sense why large extensions won't work. I'm not too concerned with the extension I guess.  I was mainly posting this to see if I was the only one misunderstanding the lt70 capacities and what guys thought of the 46hp. I'm sure the mill will cut just fine with the 46 just wondering how much of a difference people thought it would make. Woodmizer told me that it is not a noticeable difference in cutting speed.  They said they have timed the 46hp and 55hp and they are really close. 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Busysawyer

Quote from: Southside logger on April 26, 2018, 10:45:21 PM
It is my understanding that they are testing several different engines and have yet to decide on what one will be used moving ahead.  A couple of weeks back I was told 120 days before anything would be announced.  
I was told that they had a 55hp tier 4 approved but it would take the manufacture of the engine 120 days to start getting them to wm.  I see the 120 days is consistent with what I was told. 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Southside

4x4 has the 55hp tier 3 motor on his Super 70 Wide and he has mentioned that he would not want any less, that is all I know about the comparison.  Personally I am waiting to see what they do before I pull the trigger.  I am not convinced that having a tier 4 engine in a sawmill production area is a good idea, so for me it's not just the HP I want to see, it's the whole re-gen issue that I have serious reservations about.  

I have contemplated seeing if WM would sell me a 70 without an engine and I will power it, guess we will know in a couple of months.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

DPatton

So my question to you is if you are looking at a Lt 70 and willing to spend that type of money why aren't you comparing it to a TimberKing 2500? The 2500 offers a 59 hp Kubota with longer bed extensions capabilities. Sounds like your wait time turned out to be similar between the two mills. Just saying sounds like someone promised you something they aren't exactly delivering on..... 
TimberKing 1600, 30' gooseneck trailer, Chevy HD2500, Echo Chainsaw, 60" Logrite.

Work isn't so bad when you enjoy what your doing.
D & S Sawmill Services

Busysawyer

Quote from: DPatton on April 27, 2018, 12:35:44 AM
So my question to you is if you are looking at a Lt 70 and willing to spend that type of money why aren't you comparing it to a TimberKing 2500? The 2500 offers a 59 hp Kubota with longer bed extensions capabilities. Sounds like your wait time turned out to be similar between the two mills. Just saying sounds like someone promised you something they aren't exactly delivering on.....
That is what we were comparing to.  The 2500 actually cost more than the lt70 wide by the time you add debarker and board drag back. Also woodmizer is less than half the wait to get the mill once ordered. 2 months  vs 4 months.  I feel bad for Bob the TK sales guy, it's got to be hard to sell a mill when you can't deliver for over 4 months. I don't understand how anyone can run a business with that lead time. Seems to me the TK is a popular, well built mill. Why aren't they matching production to demand. Seems like hiring a few more guys and expanding operations is in order. Or running another shift. There are a couple things I like about the woodmizer that the tk doesn't offer like factory laser and the big one for me is no remote operating station with joystick controls. I have operated both lever hydraulic machinery and joystick and once I ran joystick I would  have a hard time pulling a bunch of levers all day.  I can tell you that if tk had comparable delivery times to woodmizer I would be waiting for delivery of a tk 2500 right now.  I think they are both great mills . 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Magicman

I don't know that I am reading about any promises made or broken but I am reading about some assumptions that were made.  

All manufacturers are under the same EPA guidelines.  The only ones that have mills with Tier3 engines available are those that the frames were serial numbered during previous years.  When those are sold the playing field will again be level regarding engines. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Busysawyer

Quote from: Magicman on April 27, 2018, 08:59:27 AM
I don't know that I am reading about any promises made or broken but I am reading about some assumptions that were made.  

All manufacturers are under the same EPA guidelines.  The only ones that have mills with Tier3 engines available are those that the frames were serial numbered during previous years.  When those are sold the playing field will again be level regarding engines.
I don't feel any promises were broken. I wasn't promised anything.  As far as delivery i was told about 6 weeks, could be a little less could be a little more. I did make some assumptions that lead to a small amount of disappointment.  Granted those assumptions were based on misleading information on woodmizer website. Judging from what is posted here I'm not the only one to make those assumptions based on woodmizer advertisement of the mill. It seems that woodmizer should have correct information on their flagship mill. I think that information should be corrected and the 36" x 44.2' should be changed to show the actual capacity the mill is capable of with the only available extension. As far as I'm concerned it should read something like 36" x 26'2" or whatever the true capabilities are. If you look at the lt50 it shows available up to 45' would it be wrong to assume a lt50 could be extended to 45'?
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Magicman

True in a sense, but I see the "build a mill" as a gee whiz late night lounge chair thing to get a general idea what is available, but even then the 6' extension is the only one listed as an actual option.   A conversation with a salesperson clarifies and defines that options are presently adaptable on the current models being manufactured.  Yes, I have seen a 20' extension on an older LT70.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Busysawyer

Quote from: Magicman on April 27, 2018, 09:39:39 AM
True in a sense, but I see the "build a mill" as a gee whiz late night lounge chair thing to get a general idea what is available, but even then the 6' extension is the only one listed as an actual option.   A conversation with a salesperson clarifies and defines that options are presently adaptable on the current models being manufactured.  Yes, I have seen a 20' extension on an older LT70.
I agree 100%. The build and price is just to get a feel for what's available.  I made the mistake of not being thorough with my questions to my sales person. I had researched for months, taken pages of notes and made a list if questions.  I thought I was covering all bases. I'm not upset with Woodmizer in the least. They have been great to deal with.  I have called them At least 20 times with questions about the mill, edger, cant hooks, blade choices, mill covers etc. Very happy with the service provided
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Will_Johnson

Quote from: Busybeaver on April 27, 2018, 08:55:03 AMI don't understand how anyone can run a business with that lead time. Seems to me the TK is a popular, well built mill. Why aren't they matching production to demand. Seems like hiring a few more guys and expanding operations is in order. Or running another shift.
We're fortunate to have strong demand for our mills, and we're grateful for folks who are willing to wait. We feel a TimberKing mill is well worth it!

While we'd love to increase production, we're unwilling to do that if it will in any way impinge on our quality. And while it sounds easy enough to "hire a few more guys," that's not what's required. What's required is that we hire a few more quality guys, get them the training and experience they need to put out a product worthy of our name.

If ever we have to make a choice between losing a sale or rushing a machine out the door we will, with regret, let the sale go. With all due respect, that's how you run a business that stays in business for the long haul.

On engines, this is the last year that companies can put Tier 3 "Flex" engines on machines. We're beginning to make the transition to Tier 4, but we have a few Tier 3 engines still available, including the 59HP on the 2500 mill. Worth noting that while a 2500 with debarker and drag-back does end up costing a bit more than the LT70, it comes with the larger engine, dual log turners, dual log clamps and standard 37" width of cut and 24' cut length. So, to be fair, it's not quite an apples to apple comparison.

porcupine

I have a 47hp Yanmar on my LT50. It has never bogged down or skipped a beat while being pushed through hard maple or anything I've cut. I think you will be fine with that 70!

Buyers remorse...I just bought a Kawasaki Mule and went a little crazy on accessories ....when I got the bill from the dealer my reflection on the price began....best thing to do is stop thinking about the price and get ready to enjoy the machine. Life will pass you by.
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Brute Force Grapple
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Busysawyer

Quote from: Will_Johnson on April 27, 2018, 10:19:50 AM
Quote from: Busybeaver on April 27, 2018, 08:55:03 AMI don't understand how anyone can run a business with that lead time. Seems to me the TK is a popular, well built mill. Why aren't they matching production to demand. Seems like hiring a few more guys and expanding operations is in order. Or running another shift.
We're fortunate to have strong demand for our mills, and we're grateful for folks who are willing to wait. We feel a TimberKing mill is well worth it!

While we'd love to increase production, we're unwilling to do that if it will in any way impinge on our quality. And while it sounds easy enough to "hire a few more guys," that's not what's required. What's required is that we hire a few more quality guys, get them the training and experience they need to put out a product worthy of our name.

If ever we have to make a choice between losing a sale or compromising on quality we will, with regret, let the sale go. With all due respect, that's how you run a business that stays in business for the long haul.

On engines, this is the last year that companies can put Tier 3 "Flex" engines on machines. We're beginning to make the transition to Tier 4, but we have a few Tier 3 engines still available, including the 59HP on the 2500 mill. Worth noting that while the 2500 does end up costing a bit more than the LT70, it does offer this larger engine, dual log turners, dual log clamps and standard 24' cut length. So, to be fair, it's not quite an apples to apple comparison.
It was a really tough decision for us. I wanted the tk and dad wanted the wm but he left the decision and research on me. I felt like TK offered more mill for the money. The 2500 was just slightly more than the 70, not enough difference to factor in the decision. The two main factors for us were delivery times and location. Wm is a little over 3 hours from me and you guys are more than 13 hrs. It was a tough decision for us and either way we went I felt like I will always wonder if I made the right choice.  Bob was great to deal with and I enjoyed talking to him. I felt bad that we ended up going with the woodmizer. As the owner of several successful business in the past I feel like 4 months is unacceptable as a lead time. I understand that it is hard to find quality help. My last business was a fabrication shop. We specialized in building prototypes for companies involving some pretty advanced tig welding that needed to be perfect. I went through quite a few guys and spent many late nights redoing unsatisfactory welds. Building a portable sawmill isn't rocket surgery and after design is set it is fairly simple in a manufacturing sense. I am happy to hear that you are not willing to sacrifice quality for production. As a consumer and potential customer I feel it's important for you to know that 4 months seems like a long time to wait for something as basic as a portable sawmill. Especially when one of your main competitors is cutting your lead time in half. Considering all of the supporting equipment we need to get you have missed out on over 100k in sales simply due to the fact that your current manufacturing does not meet your demand. Not to mention potential sales lost due to word of mouth and getting more of your mills in this area. It seems to me the more quality mills you get out the more you will sell. In this area wm is king. There is one guy with a tk mill anywhere near me. There was another guy but he sold his and bought a woodmizer. I hope you don't view this as bashing your company that is not my intention at all . Just trying to help by informing you of my views as a potential customer.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Busysawyer

Quote from: porcupine on April 27, 2018, 10:21:20 AM
I have a 47hp Yanmar on my LT50. It has never bogged down or skipped a beat while being pushed through hard maple or anything I've cut. I think you will be fine with that 70!

Buyers remorse...I just bought a Kawasaki Mule and went a little crazy on accessories ....when I got the bill from the dealer my reflection on the price began....best thing to do is stop thinking about the price and get ready to enjoy the machine. Life will pass you by.
Thank you . That's what I wanted to hear. I have buyers remorse and unfortunately I'm one of those guys who always wonders if my money would have been better spent,  especially regarding major purchases. In regards to sawmills it is really hard for me because I really believe that there is a lot of great quality mills being produced which makes the decision a tough one.  So many happy owners from both the companies we were looking at. I really hope I don't have any issues with the woodmizer and don't anticipate any.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Will_Johnson

Every buyer brings with them a certain set of requirements. While our product itself seems to have checked the boxes for you, lead time was ultimately the factor that tipped the balance for you. That's fine, you had to make the best decision for your particular set of circumstances. As I said, other buyers' priorities are balanced differently and we're grateful for their business.

I'd quibble with your notion that making nine different models of machine with several configurations and many thousands of parts is "simple in a manufacturing sense." If it were there would be a lot more people doing it -- and doing it as well as we do. As it happens, there are few of the first and even fewer of the second.

SawyerTed

Quote from: porcupine on April 27, 2018, 10:21:20 AM
Buyers remorse...I just bought a Kawasaki Mule and went a little crazy on accessories ....when I got the bill from the dealer my reflection on the price began....best thing to do is stop thinking about the price and get ready to enjoy the machine. Life will pass you by.
It is unusual that a piece of equipment gains value over time - UTVs, tractors, computers, boats, sawmills, motorcycles, you name it - the only way to offset the loss in value is to use, enjoy and maintain these things.

I'll never recover the money I've spent on boats or fishing gear but the return on the "investment" (loosely used word) has been countless hours spent with family and friends fishing, skiing, camping and cruising.

So I fully agree! Get what you can afford.  Don't strain over gnats, don't  second guess and don't borrow trouble!  It is hard to move forward rehashing well thought out decisions.

That LT70 is one heck of a machine! Get your hands on it, work it and enjoy it!
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

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