The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems

Chainsawr, The Worlds Largest Inventory of Chainsaw Parts

Smith Sawmill Service



Author Topic: Concern regarding reforestation program  (Read 2262 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EWilson99

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Concern regarding reforestation program
« on: January 22, 2021, 05:43:35 PM »
My parents own a farm here in Eastern Ontario, and they've decided to reforest a small 0.7 hectare (1.7 acres) piece of their property. The trees are being planted by the local Raisin River Conservation Authority, and the amount of trees goes along like this, for a total of 1400 trees:
800 White Pine
300 White Cedar
100 Red Maple
100 Bur Oak
50 Bitternut Hickory
50 Black Cherry
The composition of the trees, and their amount, were solely decided by the RRCA, and my parents had no control over the decision. What worries me is the lack of space that there will be in-between the trees once they're planted, and what effect it'll have in 4-5 years time. My parents calculated that there should be about 4-6 feet between each seedling, but I've heard that some of these trees actually require more space. Does this mean that there's a chance of most of the trees (50%) not reaching maturity? If some of the seedlings die, would it help other nearby trees when it comes to space?

Any help is very much appreciated

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2021, 06:17:06 PM »
Natures way is to overseed.  It would jam them every 8 inches and then the winners prune out the losers over time by shading them to death.  

Isaiah 63:10

Offline VTDonn

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2021, 06:23:11 PM »
I'm not familiar with how that organization operates, but from a planting perspective, that's fairly conventional. Young trees need to be crowded for a bit in order to promote vertical growth. If they were spaced 30 feet apart, they'd grow horizontally like trees in a city park. In 15-20 years or so, the stems will be thinned to open up the best crowns. Then again a couple decades after that. So ultimately you won't be growing 2,000 trees per HA- there might be a couple hundred after intentional thinning and natural mortality, including early survival rates a few years after planting..

However, all of that only applies to a conventional softwood plantation, but less to the hardwood component, which I normally don't see in a plantation context. You'd really need to know the ultimate management objective in order to form a hard opinion. I.e. is the goal to grow an even aged forest where trees are grown to a certain target, then clearcut and replanted? Or are they intending to recreate an uneven/multi-aged forest, where some trees will grow in perpetuity, and you'll foster new generations to maintain a multi-level forest structure indefinitely?

At a scale of a hectare, it's all a bit academic, but the bottom line? No, that's not an unusually crowded start to a plantation! Enjoy watching your trees grow.

Offline EWilson99

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2021, 06:35:24 PM »
I'm not familiar with how that organization operates, but from a planting perspective, that's fairly conventional. Young trees need to be crowded for a bit in order to promote vertical growth. If they were spaced 30 feet apart, they'd grow horizontally like trees in a city park. In 15-20 years or so, the stems will be thinned to open up the best crowns. Then again a couple decades after that. So ultimately you won't be growing 2,000 trees per HA- there might be a couple hundred after intentional thinning and natural mortality, including early survival rates a few years after planting..

However, all of that only applies to a conventional softwood plantation, but less to the hardwood component, which I normally don't see in a plantation context. You'd really need to know the ultimate management objective in order to form a hard opinion. I.e. is the goal to grow an even aged forest where trees are grown to a certain target, then clearcut and replanted? Or are they intending to recreate an uneven/multi-aged forest, where some trees will grow in perpetuity, and you'll foster new generations to maintain a multi-level forest structure indefinitely?

At a scale of a hectare, it's all a bit academic, but the bottom line? No, that's not an unusually crowded start to a plantation! Enjoy watching your trees grow.
Thanks for the note. And yes, I am very excited to see them grow! The land all around my parent's property has been clearcut by a local wealthy farmer who's bought it recently, so it'll be nice to have some greenery around, even if it's a rather small forest. It's going to be great to walk around in the woods without having to drive more than an hour away to some provincial or national park.
The ultimate goal is to have a multi-aged forest, where trees will grow in perpetuity. Are you saying that with the "natural selection" side of things, we should expect less than half of the seedlings to grow into maturity?

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31936
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • Share Post
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2021, 06:48:48 PM »
There will be natural mortality and like Mike said, the trees will sort themselves out.  After four or five years, if they are too thick, you can thin them out.  Likely, nature and natural mortality will do this for you. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Online SwampDonkey

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 39903
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2021, 07:06:42 PM »
The ultimate goal is to have a multi-aged forest, where trees will grow in perpetuity.
Not with a plantation alone. You would have to have multiple entries , say beginning in 20 years with the goal at first to thin to keep a healthy crown until trees mature. Once seed production begins, small openings need to be created for light to hit the ground to establish new trees. Multiple entries will be required  to make some holes to promote new trees from the surrounding mature trees. What your beginning with is an even aged stand, multi-aged is going to require a bunch of work. Trees have to grow and mature some before you get seed. Then, since the site is small, there is a lot of ingress from the neighborhood, including birds and mammals bringing stuff and making deposits. ;D

Your spacing works out to almost 6 ft between trees, which is the predominant spacing in eastern Canada for reforestation.

Yellow birch planted around black cherry on an old orchard.



same site



A few years back. Now these trees are producing seed. Planted in 2000 (date stamp is incorrect), thinned in 2012.  Need new photo update, the understory is mostly bare except wild herbs like trout lily, purple trilium, false Solomon's seal, false lily of the valley, star flower. Even a couple butternuts in there I poked into the soil. Typical wild plants here under hardwoods in New Brunswick.
“No amount of belief makes something a fact.” James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

Offline Ianab

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 14974
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Stratford , New Zealand
  • Gender: Male
  • Marmite on toast is a real breakfast
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2021, 07:31:42 PM »
The multi-aged forest is going to happen eventually, providing it's not clear cut in ~50 years time. 

But it's your Grandkids that are going to see that. A mixed age forest will have trees that are 50-100 years old, AND new saplings coming up to replace the older trees as they die. But it takes 100 years to grow a 100 year old tree. After maybe 10 years it might start to look like a "new" forest, but you have to start someplace, and it's interesting to see how things develop over time.

A planting plan like that is about the best option to get a mixed species forest started. Like other have said, not all the trees will survive, but you get "canopy closure" much sooner with the closer spacing. That both suppresses the weeds, and forces the trees to grow taller to reach the light. Over time some of the weaker ones will get suppressed and die off, or be removed by management. 

If you look at how a forest naturally regenerates after a large tree falls (or is removed) there will be hundreds of seedlings sprouting in the new open space. Eventually only one or 2 are going to reach maturity. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Offline EWilson99

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2021, 07:47:36 PM »
The ultimate goal is to have a multi-aged forest, where trees will grow in perpetuity.
Not with a plantation alone. You would have to have multiple entries , say beginning in 20 years with the goal at first to thin to keep a healthy crown until trees mature. Once seed production begins, small openings need to be created for light to hit the ground to establish new trees. Multiple entries will be required  to make some holes to promote new trees from the surrounding mature trees. What your beginning with is an even aged stand, multi-aged is going to require a bunch of work. Trees have to grow and mature some before you get seed. Then, since the site is small, there is a lot of ingress from the neighborhood, including birds and mammals bringing stuff and making deposits. ;D

Thank you for reminding me of that- I was a bit worried that at the rate that White Pines grow, they'd quickly overshadow the White Cedars and other trees, and I'd be stuck with a White Pine-only forest in 20-30 years time. Is it better to trim the White Pine branches early on (around 5-10 year time frame), or should I wait for the 20 year mark?

As long as none of the small animals eat any of the seedlings, I'm happy ;) There's a couple of animals on the property already (raccoons, squirrels, fox and skunks), and I hope that as the forest starts to grow there's a lot more wildlife that can find refuge in our backyard.

Offline Otis1

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 29
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Wausau, WI
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2021, 07:50:47 PM »
Without knowing what your planting layout will be... Often times, the hardwoods are planted in rows between the faster growing pine rows. The competition will force them to go up instead of out. You'll probably end up thinning out the white pine before the others. Some additional competition control such as mowing any grass/ brush will aid in reducing mortality. If you have a lot of deer, you may want to consider some protection for the hardwoods and cedar at least. It's easy picking for them to just walk down a row and nip buds.

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31936
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • Share Post
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2021, 08:01:47 AM »
When pruning the pine, maintain at least a 50% crown ratio.  That is the height of the live crown with needles divided by the total height of the tree.  You can begin pruning them when they get about 10' to 15' tall. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Online SwampDonkey

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 39903
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2021, 08:58:56 AM »
Pruning the w. pine will also help deter rust disease. Up here we have severe rust and also severe weevil damage. So for me I have to grow white pine in a little shade to keep them from being dominant for awhile or the weevils will just hammer it. Your area may not be so difficult to grow w. pine. Pruning is most effective against the rust. The rust finds the right habitat in humid understory conditions, they inoculate needles and then grow to the stem and girdle it. They need a host plant to spread, that is any currant or gooseberry (ribies).

20 years is just a number I tossed out there. We often thin forest at 12-15 years here in NB. The lower limbs are dead and you can see under the canopy.
“No amount of belief makes something a fact.” James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

Offline Sod saw

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Age: 70
  • Location: upstate NY: Sodus Bay area
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2021, 04:42:33 PM »
And then,    there was the old forester who was asked "when is the best time to plant trees?"


reply:     about 50 years ago
LT 40 hyd.          Solar Kiln
.
It's extremely easy to make things complicated, but very difficult to keep things simple.
.

Offline KEC

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
  • Age: 70
  • Location: Town of Pompey, NY
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2021, 07:19:45 PM »
Deer can be hard on the White Cedar and Red Maple.

Offline EWilson99

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2021, 10:45:36 PM »
And then,    there was the old forester who was asked "when is the best time to plant trees?"


reply:     about 50 years ago
Good point, although at the end of the day I'm happy to have the trees planted now, rather than wait a couple of more years. Unfortunately, the provincial government doesn't do a good job at advertising reforestation projects and subsidies; otherwise, the trees would have been planted years ago. 
Deer can be hard on the White Cedar and Red Maple.
Thanks for the heads up!

Online SwampDonkey

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 39903
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2021, 03:17:09 AM »
Unfortunately, the provincial government doesn't do a good job at advertising reforestation projects and subsidies; otherwise, the trees would have been planted years ago.
One of the benefits of having woodlot owner organizations. DNR staff work with industry only these days. It's been up to woodlot owner organizations to carry the torch or no one will know about the silviculture programs. There's not single add on the television by anyone out there talking about silviculture. Sad state of affairs. Adds are even rare in local papers, except notifying everyone one of an annual meeting. Those meetings have value, but hardy anyone shows up unless you serve dinner to. :D
“No amount of belief makes something a fact.” James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

Offline Boreal et al

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Location: California, Pennyslvania, Michigan
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2021, 06:02:29 PM »
As temperatures rise and drought intensifies, fires grow larger and burn more severely. What happens to the landscape next is unknown.  It's about Arizona and the millions of homeless and deceased animals who have lost their Trees of Life and their Forests of Life.  That's todays headline.   I realize most people on this forum are selling equipment to turn trees into something else. but with the thousands of members who log on.  couldn't the moderators lead a team of volunteers to help accelerate the reforesting. Not for plantations.  But for life.  Arizona and California, could really use the help. It's heart breaking and deviating here.  Hello Ontario?!  And please indict the people who  have decimated the monarch butterfly habitats!
When a tree grows a forest, everyone hears it!
Squirrels, deer, bears, field mice, hawks, eagles --all of us hear the seeds of greatness landing at our feet.  Acorns, pine cones, apples, cherries, mesquite pods, olives and more. Plant a seed today, to leaf the planet better than we found it.

Offline Old Greenhorn

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5284
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Catskill Mountains, NY
  • Gender: Male
  • An old coot, still learning.
    • Share Post
    • Woodsman Forest Products
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2021, 06:20:16 PM »
 popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 450, 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I am the woodcutter now.
I can work with wood, but I am NOT a Woodworker, yet.

Offline Clark

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 929
  • Location: Duluth, MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2021, 09:16:18 PM »
And please indict the people who  have decimated the monarch butterfly habitats!

This does seem like the most appropriate place to bring up such a topic!

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

Offline btulloh

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4139
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Midlothian, VA
  • Gender: Male
  • I never met an air conditioner I didn't like
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2021, 09:52:27 PM »
Modern forest management practices result in good regeneration and these management practices also create habitat for wildlife as well as homes for families and the many other products that we all need and depend on.  The forest is a renewable resource. 

California in particular as well as other western states constrain and limit good forest management practices.  There are millions of acres of dead standing, overgrown forests full of beetle killed pine. These areas are highly susceptible to fire. They are like dry gunpowder waiting to go off.

A lot of this is the result of well-intentioned, but mis-guided and under informed people and the politicians who pander to them. The forest product industry is very capable of managing these issues but the bad decisions regarding harvest, access, and regeneration are coming from the state legislatures, etc.  

There are quite a few members here involved in fighting these fires and many more that care about good management of a renewable resource. 

You’re right.  There are people people here “selling equipment to turn trees into something else”.  The “something else” is properly managed renewable forest that benefit all creatures - including humans. If only there were enough people who understood facts rather than feelings. 

Online SwampDonkey

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 39903
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: Concern regarding reforestation program
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2021, 04:56:50 AM »
Bernstein, who is on youtube not on the forum, he is a woodlot owner as well. He cuts firewood and logs for lumber he uses for himself. He was just talking the other day about spraying leafy spurge (invasive from Europe), it's a menace to pasture ground in ND. He has to spray the stuff, so there are consequences. He notes that he does his best not to spray the 'wild' hemp ;D or the milk weed. Milk weed being used by the monarch, hemp being used as chinking (retted fibres) in his buildings mixed with clay for a binder. There is more going on than you have read from propaganda papers. ;)
“No amount of belief makes something a fact.” James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
My Biggest Concern

Started by SW_IOWA_SAWYER on General Board

6 Replies
730 Views
Last post December 15, 2004, 03:01:08 PM
by breederman
xx
WM Lubemizer Freezing Concern.

Started by Chris Burchfield on Sawmills and Milling

4 Replies
1493 Views
Last post December 30, 2005, 08:00:44 PM
by ronwood
xx
Concrete slab concern

Started by SevernDH on General Board

15 Replies
1647 Views
Last post July 18, 2016, 08:11:43 PM
by Bruno of NH
xx
Concern on Sawmilling Black Walnuts

Started by ben5398 on Sawmills and Milling

49 Replies
5448 Views
Last post January 26, 2021, 09:02:53 AM
by RussMaGuss
 


Powered by EzPortal