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Hickory? If so, what type?

Started by Old Greenhorn, September 03, 2021, 06:04:53 PM

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Old Greenhorn

Took a quick run through the woodlot and found two big trees down from the recent storms. One was across the skid trail and will need cleaning up. Pretty good sized tree. I don't run into these much, pretty sure it's a hickory, but wondering what kind? Pics aren't as good as I'd like.



 
Thats the fruit and leaves.



 

Slightly different shot of the structure. I will have to come around from the other side to start cutting and take a look at the bark. After knowing the specific species, my next question is the wood characteristics. What is it good for? Should I take sawlogs if I can get them? Looks to be a pretty big stick, not sure yet where it broke. I know it's good for handles and such, but don't know much else.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Old Greenhorn

Also, forgot to ask, the nuts on this tree, what can be done with the. There is quite a crop. Wondering when they should be harvested, and what to do with them. Is this crop lost because it's too early for harvest?
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Tacotodd

Re wood: I don't know except for what I've read about on here, devil wood.

Re fruit: I've seen squirrels eat most kinds of tree fruit (seeds) in almost any state, except rotten. For other critters, they should have been ripe before harvest whether or not it's done by you. I'd say leave the nuts (fruit) where they drop & forget them unless not able to because of neighbors.
Trying harder everyday.

mike_belben

Definitely hickory.  Pick a few nuts and a branch end off and google images tab.  The nuts are pretty unique.
Praise The Lord

Al_Smith

Hickory is a second cousin to pecan and walnut from what I gather .The nuts from shag bark or shell bark are edible but the so called bitter nut or smooth bark/pignut  are not .As far as lumber info I gathered from a local sawmill says the bitter nut makes the best lumber .
Identification would be of course the bark plus the number of fronds in a leaf .
The lumber is hard and durable but does not hold up to weather well .For firewood it needs cut, split and stacked plus covered  in a timely manner  because left in the log it will rot .It does make for example very nice flooring and I have around 1000 square feet of it in my house of laminated hickory . 

Al_Smith

--more as usual .For reasons unknown I've lost quite a few rather large hickory trees that just die on the vine .These are like 3 feet in diameter and upwards of near 100 feet .I have one I hope to get to this winter that's nearly 3 1/2 feet .Whatever  the problem is it seems to only get the shag barks .
Green cut they aren't bad but standing dead they are hard as a rock .I'll be going to get a lot of practice with the file I'm certain when that time comes .
I might have a scant 2-300 board feet of air dried shag  I saved with the intent of making a table leaf for a pecan dining room table .It's been stacked for over 15 years inside so it's about as dry as it's ever going to get . 

WDH

Quote from: Al_Smith on September 04, 2021, 09:08:44 AM
Hickory is a second cousin to pecan and walnut from what I gather .
Pecan is a hickory.  There are two groups of hickories, the true hickories that have five to seven leaflets and rounded nuts and the pecan hickories, of which pecan  smiley_devil is one, that have seven to many leaflets and flattened nuts.  Pecan wood is considered hickory in the trade.  There are four pecan hickories, pecan, water hickory, bitternut hickory, and nutmeg hickory.  
OGH, I can positively identify your hickory with just a bit more information.  How many leaflets?  Is the leaf stalk smooth or fuzzy?  Is the underside of the leaflets smooth or fuzzy?  Does the nut husk split all the way to the base or only partially?  Is the nut husk thick, like 1/4" thick or is it thin, 1/8" thick or less?  If it was shagbark or shellbark, it would obvious from the very shaggy bark.  From what I see in the pics, your hickory appears to be pignut. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Old Greenhorn

Thanks all. Big wedding here today and I am tied up with chores. As soon I can I will zip back down to the woods and get a better sample and photos. I could not even see the trunk for the direction I approached it. Should have clipped off a branch but didn't think of that.
 After the wedding I will refocus.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Al_Smith

On what I found to be humorous squirrels are the best tree planters in the world .I find little hickory and walnut saplings rising up a long ways away from the standing trees .Some are so small they get mistaken for a weed but they certainly don't pull out of the ground like a weed .Tough little rascals . 

KEC

So, is bitternut and pignut one and the same ?  What I encounter here is bitternut. It is great for smoking meat and excellent heating wood. One thing though, you can cut it, cut it up and stack it right away and before long the powder post beetles are in it. Other than handles, I don't know what the lumber can be used for. When I hauled hardwood logs I would see bitternut logs sitting at a landing and in short order the ends of the logs would open up with cracks you could fit your fingers into.

WDH

No.  The two are very different.  Pignut has a leaf stem (rachis) that is smooth but bitternut has a fuzzy one.  Pignut normally has 5 leaflets, sometimes 7.   Bitternut has 7 to 10.   Buds are different.  Pignut has a small black/brown bud with overlapping scales.  Bitternut buds are very unique and diagnostic.  They are sulfur yellow, longer than round, and do not have overlapping scales.  The bark can be very similar. Tight appressed ridges that interlace although one variety of pignut hickory has bark that still forms interlocking ridges but is a little scaly. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Al_Smith

Another thing I found with fresh cut hickory is the ants .Once cut and stacked they attack it in warm weather .They stop when it's bone dry .I used to stack it and spray it down with Sevin and water ,dead ants every where .
I did about 3 cords early this spring that was bone dry and haven't noticed any ants . 

KEC

Thanks, WDH. I'll have to look at some of the hickory trees around here.

JBlain

We have pignut, mockernut, shellbark, shagbark, and bitternut hickory on our place in central PA.  Different soils and elevations favor each one. 

For the nuts, our favorite thing to do is find ones that aren't rotten and crush them with a hammer.  Throw them shells and all into a pot of water and boil them.  It makes an excellent tea and the nut meat separates to the top and the shells to the bottom.  We ladle off the meat and then strain the tea with a coffee filter.  Our kids love it.  
Josh

KEC

I seem to recall that the husks from bitternut nuts are toxic and that the Indians would throw husks into water to kill fish.

WDH

Not sure about bitternut but I believe that walnut nut husks were used the same way and also to make a dye.  
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

thecfarm

That nut is kinda starting to open up like a shagbark. BUT I've never seen any other hickory trees either. I have a shagbark hickory on my land. Right next to the truck road. The logger that was cutting the trees told me about it. He thought I did not know it was there.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

WDH

Down here, the involucre (nut husk) on the shag barks is thick, like 1/4" thick.  Check out the pic of the nut husk on shagbark in this link.  

https://dendro.cnre.vt.edu/dendrology/syllabus/factsheet.cfm?ID=20

The one in this thread seems to be a thin husk variety like you see in pignut or bitternut.  
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

thecfarm

I missed the thin shell. No need for the link for me, I have plenty of shells to look at.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Crusarius

Hickory is very dense heavy hardwood. makes very nice lumber. I just stacked some boards that have been air drying for over a year. Felt like fresh cut red oak in weight.

I have been collecting as much as I can cause I wanted to do hickory floors in my house. It can be really nice stuff. but for sure it is hard. I have had better luck cutting the hickory than I have cutting spruce.

WDH

Down here, if I had hickory air drying for a year, it would be pretty much riddled with PPB's unless sprayed green off the sawmill with DOT (disodium octaborate tetrahydrate).  They love my hickory and desperately love my pecan. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

beenthere

Quote from: thecfarm on September 06, 2021, 09:48:09 AM
I missed the thin shell. No need for the link for me, I have plenty of shells to look at.
Thin husk, not thin shell. 
Shell is that which surrounds the nut meat, and the husk surrounds the shell. 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Al_Smith

Speaking of which ,hickory I'm to round up a bunch of small stuff and burn them into coals .I've got plenty near my splitter .The T-bone steaks  I've got laid out for supper  deserve a better fire than a gas grill . It takes about an hour and a half to burn it down to just the right coal bed .--plus of course about 2 or 3 barley pops while feeding the fire . ;)
  

Old Greenhorn

OK, went down this afternoon and clipped off a branch. It's dark down their in the full sunshine. First, here is the bark:


 

Here are the nuts:


 

This is the leaf tops (smooth):


 
The leaf bottoms (also smooth as is the stalk):


 

As I said, no fuzz on the leaves or stalks. The leaves are in groups of 5 or seven, I could not find more. Looks like I have some millable logs in there. The nuts are still green and hard but I shaved off some of the husk and it is thin, 1/8" or less and very fragrant.

 So I think what we have here is pignut based on the WDH description. My prime concerns/uses come in the following order:
1) Mill lumber for furniture type stuff (not structural).
2) firewood from what I can't mill
3) maybe try using the fruit for 'something'.
 I plan to let it sit for a few weeks to let the nuts mature and maybe pick a bunch. This tree broke off at the stump so it still has a lot of water and nutrients in it to feed those nuts. It is blocking the skid road along with a small maple it took down along it's earthward journey.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

WDH

Yes Sir.  You hit all of the marks exactly for pignut. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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