Hickory? If so, what type?

[Old Greenhorn]

OK, sorry, but I have to put in a page to @WDH again. The other tree down in this storm that I walked past and assumed it was 'yet another red maple' (juvenile bark) turned out to be another hickory, but this one is different from the first.


 
The leaves are a totally different shape from the previous one, there are 5 leaves in a group, they are smooth both sides and the stem.
The fruit is more than twice the size of the previous specimen.


 

This one is split stem to stern and the husk is a LOT thicker than the other specimen too. I am confused now. HELP! My guess is this is a young shagbark before the bark has developed. I forgot to get a bark photo but it is smooth.

[Old Greenhorn]

Followup. I did shell one of these nuts and it don't taste bad at all. I'll be collecting these I think. ;D Kind of like a mellow walnut. A lot of work to get them out, but nice clean meat. The pignut was not quite ripe I think and pretty mushy. The taste was not, um, attractive. :D

[thecfarm]

I betcha that one a shagbark nut. 

[beenthere]

OK, sorry, but I have to put in a page to @WDH again. The other tree down in this storm that I walked past and assumed it was 'yet another red maple' (juvenile bark) turned out to be another hickory, but this one is different from the first.


 
The leaves are a totally different shape from the previous one, there are 5 leaves in a group, they are smooth both sides and the stem.
The fruit is more than twice the size of the previous specimen.


 

This one is split stem to stern and the husk is a LOT thicker than the other specimen too. I am confused now. HELP! My guess is this is a young shagbark before the bark has developed. I forgot to get a bark photo but it is smooth.

Shagbark hickory (Carya ovata). Young bark smooth, without the shag.
Shagbark hickories change as they grow - Lifestyle* - seacoastonline.com - Portsmouth, NH
Nut meats easily removed after cracking by using dike side cutters to break the shell and release the meat of the nut.

[Old Greenhorn]

Yeah, I think you guys are right. I have seen some shag bark trees that are small, 4-5" diameter and had the shag, never saw on with smooth bark. Sorry to see this one go, but it will get used for mushroom logs, so it gets to 'live' for a few more years.

[WDH]

You, Sir, are picking up the subtleties of tree ID by looking at diagnostic characteristics.  If I see a 5 leaflet hickory leaf with a smooth rachis (what the leaf petiole is called on a compound leaf) and a big fat nut with a thick husk that splits freely to the base, my very first thought would be shagbark.   Mockernut, one of the most common hickories also has a nut just like that, but leaflets are in 7's and the rachis is tomentose (wooly/hairy). 

This illustrates well an important feature of tree ID. Many times it takes several characteristics paired together to make a determination.  If you go on only a single characteristic in many cases, you can go down the wrong path.   

For example, the shaggy bark of shagbark hickory is unique.  However, as my friend Mr. Beenthere points out, young shagbarks may not have developed the scaly bark at that point in their development.  However, in your case, the nut prevented us from falling into the pignut trap because, "this ain't right".

Hopefully what I am about to add is not too confusing.....
When I was learning trees there was a species called red hickory.  It typically has 7 leaflets, sometimes 5 and the leaf rachis is smooth.  The nut is exactly like pignut hickory, smaller with thin husk that does not split all the way to the base.  The bark has the interlacing ridges, but is a bit scaly. The scientific name was Carya ovalis.  

Today, most Taxonomists do not consider it a separate species, but a variety of pignut hickory.  Pignut hickory is Carya glabra (glabraeous means smooth in taxonomic speak) so in many texts "red hickory" became false pignut hickory with the name Carya glabra variety ovalis. Others just consider it within the range of variation seen in pignut hickory.  

So, your first posted hickory is the "false pignut hickory" variety of pignut hickory with the 7 leaflets with smooth rachis and tardily dehiscent nut husk (does not split to base of nut) with slightly scaly interlacing ridges in the bark.  So, it is just a confused pignut hickory tying to be different but I did not want to confuse you about this confused pignut  .  

[Old Greenhorn]

Well you did not confuse me (this time ;D), but I won't say I understood all the words you used. :D
 I just came back up with a small load of mushroom logs off the second specimen and collected a bunch of nuts. Once I cut back the brush and got a better look I see that the tree, about 55 feet long (formerly tall) does in fact have the classic shagbark in the lower more mature trunk. My original impression came from the upper, newer, and less mature branches which were obscuring the skid road. The mosquitoes came out to greet me in droves and between the sweat and them and my out-of-breathedness, I came up to unload and take a break. I pulled 14 logs off the top wood on that one. The pignut is much bigger. Trying to squeeze out 40 logs for an emergency order. Not bad for a bonus tree.
 I'll get back to it in a little bit. Thanks for all your help with this.

[Al_Smith]

I think in this big  long discussion it just boils down to what term is given to them locally .Pig nut,bitter nut and smooth bark seem to be given to one in the same or similar species .To me the bark on same is similar  to a black walnut .Depends on how you look at it I guess .I'll take a picture of a big one that got the top wind blown a year or two ago .Blew out about 60 feet and left a 40 foot snag .It was a trick removing the top ,too dangerous to climb, no room for a bucket truck .Had to use some creativity on that one .The top alone had about 2.5-3 cords of fire wood .I've never taken the time to estimate how much lumber or firewood the standing snag has but it's quite a bit .BRB ,camera and off to the woods .

[Al_Smith]

Here you go call it what you want .

 

[WDH]

Pignut and bitternut are two completely different species of hickory.  Calling one the other does not make it right.  Or, maybe you will be right 50% of the time. 

[Al_Smith]

I wasn't saying they were however what they might be called in a region might differ .For an example a white oak in northern Ohio might be called a northern white oak but in Mississippi it certainly is in the south .Weather it differs or not who could really say ? The big question is would they both have  the same characteristics therefore the same usage no matter what it's called .Kind of like is a pigs butt really pork ? ;)  

[KEC]

I would say that people should try to use correct common names for species so that we are all on the same page. The "correct" common names of birds are given to them by the American Ornithologists Union. Using these names makes it so that we all know what someone is talking about when they say that they saw such and such a bird. WDH, who assigns common names to trees ?

[WDH]

Most were documented by the early Botanists, Dendrologists, and Taxonomists that first described the species and gave them their Latin names.  I am sure many came from what people had been referring to them by, thus, many species have several common names.  

Some local common names are wrong.  One notable example is in the deep mid-South, namely Mississippi, Louisiana, and Arkansas, what is called "pin oak" is one of three species, water oak, willow oak, and laurel oak.  There is actually a very common species of red oak called pin oak, Quercus palustris, that is a common in a large area of the drainages of the Ohio river, so a "pin oak" from a common name standpoint depends on where you are from, although the genuine pin oak is the one in the Ohio valley. 

[Old Greenhorn]

There are SO many examples of this it boggles my (little) mind. Just go look at the listing on wikipedia of all the species called 'Ironwood'. That term is even used to refer to hornbeam and hop hornbeam. I don't see anyway to get a handle on this locally assigned nomenclature. The cow has been out of the barn for centuries. For the average person I don't think it matters hardly at all, a red oak is a red oak, right? But there is a big difference between red oak and scarlet oak when the log buyer comes around. ;D

[WDH]

Exactly. 

[Al_Smith]

Log buyers are another subject very controversial .In these parts they deal with the land owner about once in a life time .Draw your own conclusions on that one .--just saying --- ;)

[KEC]

So, is it that there is no one organization that attempts to assigned common names to trees and plants. I guess this explains why tree books and wildflower books list so many names for any given tree or plant or flower. Did you know that the term "in the catbird seat" was actually referring to Northern Mockingbird ? Mockingbirds sing loudly from high open perches while Gray Catbirds skulk in thick brush and trees. Who needs more confusion in their life?

[WDH]

"Not I said the sparrow with my little bow and arrow".

[etd66ss]

These are the Hickory species I have:



 

From left to right I believe they are: Shagbark, Shellbark & Bitternut.

[Old Greenhorn]

I am thinking that middle one is a Pecan. The shellbark nut I believe is much rounder than your example.

[etd66ss]

I am thinking that middle one is a Pecan. The shellbark nut I believe is much rounder than your example.

Ok, another picture from about 2 weeks ago, when the husks were fresh:


 
Pecan are not native here.

[Old Greenhorn]

Same nuts? Same order? or are you playing a shell game here? :D :D :D :D

[etd66ss]

No, not the same nuts or order.

I have too many nuts to keep track:



 

[Old Greenhorn]

OH.

[Crusarius]

we are all just nuts here anyhow