The Feed Crop, Grain, Forage and Soil Health Thread

[jeeper9574]

There is a mixture of timothy, orchard grass and other perennial grasses but the field is getting taken over by the smooth bedstraw. 

I have thought about doing baleage and would like to, but don't have the machinery for that yet. Not worrying so much about the weather would be a big advantage. We make the smaller square bales which can be a pain to feed out but have been good to sell locally to horse owners that come and get 20-30 bales at a time. 

Nice setup Magicman!

[Southside]

Honestly switching to baleage is like hooking onto a gooseneck for the first time, you NEVER want to go back. 

[newoodguy78]

@WhitePineJunky this thread has some good information if the cover crops I mentioned in your other thread are of interest. Also gets into some unconventional but effective methods as well. 
Keep up the good work, your land stewardship efforts are commendable. 

[jeeper9574]

@newoodguy78  Have you dealt with smooth bedstraw in any of your hay fields? If so, how have you dealt with it?

In asking around locally, the consensus is to raise the ph to discourage the bedstraw, fertilize to promote the grasses, spray with a broadleaf herbicide, then over seed with a new hay/pasture mix. I am worried that it won't do enough to eliminate the bedstraw and not crazy about the idea of spraying which will also kill off any of the beneficial broad leaf plants. 

[newoodguy78]

jeeper I currently manage ground for vegetable production and don't produce any hay right now. In the past fortunately bedstraw wasn't a problem in hay ground so I can't offer firsthand experience. I've got someone to ask about it though, I'll get back to you. 
You may be onto something with the lime. Weeds are a very good indicator of deficiencies of some kind in the soil. Personally I'd be hesitant to spray for the broadleafs as well for the very reason you mentioned and others. 

Have you ever done frost seeding or soil testing?

[jeeper9574]

Thanks I appreciate that. It seems to be becoming more of a problem. I will try to get a picture in the next couple days to show what I am dealing with.

I have not tried frost seeding but it is something I should consider. We did do soil testing and added lime and nitrogen last year. I know we were on the lower range of PH and I guess the idea is to push that towards the upper bounds of recommended PH for grasses to discourage the bedstraw. I should do another round of tests now to see where we are going in to the spring. 

[SwampDonkey]

The bedstraw has taken over fields up here that lay fallow. Many of those old fields have been reforested over time with planting, but the curse was always bedstraw. They would smother the spruce trees or pines. Our wild type of bedstraw is sweet scented bedstraw that have tiny hairs that grab your clothing. This field stuff is not native here. Never saw it in fields that were actively farmed. I'd rather have goldenrod than bedstraw.

[TreefarmerNN]

@newoodguy78  Have you dealt with smooth bedstraw in any of your hay fields? If so, how have you dealt with it?

In asking around locally, the consensus is to raise the ph to discourage the bedstraw, fertilize to promote the grasses, spray with a broadleaf herbicide, then over seed with a new hay/pasture mix. I am worried that it won't do enough to eliminate the bedstraw and not crazy about the idea of spraying which will also kill off any of the beneficial broad leaf plants.

You might want to test using 2,4,d on a small area which should provide some control and not hurt any grass.  It will burn white clover but at recommended rates should not kill the clover.  It will kill some other broadleaf plants so you will want to run a test to see how it does in your situation.  Certainly getting the soil right is the first step so other plants can compete and ultimately crowd out a relatively shallow rooted bedstraw.

[newoodguy78]

jeeper9574 are the fields you're battling bedstraw in older seedings? When do you typically take your first cutting and how many a year?
Curious what your soil tests say about calcium levels. The more I learn about healthy soils which ultimately produce healthy crops the more I realize how important calcium is. Not so much on hay ground but in vegetable ground I've seen firsthand the results of focusing on calcium. Yours and others might have different soils which would show different results.
Been using Humiflore a TiMac product (fertilizer company started in Europe) to help get calcium up, it's paid for itself undoubtedly.
Where are you located? if it's something you're interested in let me know I'll share the contact information. Just don't want to post someone's personal information publicly.

[SwampDonkey]

Calcium is def. important. Our bedrock here is calcareous shale, but does no good to plants down deep under the good soil. All the cedar ground here is on top of grey/blue lime beds, but you won't grow veg on swamp ground. I add lime every year here to gardens and berries. I don't use much fertilizers, mostly rotten manure. A bag of fertilizer does me 3 years. If I had more time to myself I wouldn't buy any manure, but I have to work and make living besides a garden and cut firewood. Like my father said, I can't work 24 hrs a day.  And of course in winter there isn't much growing to do.  

[TreefarmerNN]

jeeper9574 are the fields you're battling bedstraw in older seedings? When do you typically take your first cutting and how many a year?
Curious what your soil tests say about calcium levels. The more I learn about healthy soils which ultimately produce healthy crops the more I realize how important calcium is. Not so much on hay ground but in vegetable ground I've seen firsthand the results of focusing on calcium. Yours and others might have different soils which would show different results.
Been using Humiflore a TiMac product (fertilizer company started in Europe) to help get calcium up, it's paid for itself undoubtedly.
Where are you located? if it's something you're interested in let me know I'll share the contact information. Just don't want to post someone's personal information publicly.

PH levels are fairly important on all crops, including hay or pasture.  Locally, our soils tend to be deficient in magnesium so when we need to lime it should be with dolomitic limestone which has a bit more magnesium than calcitic does.

Magnesium is critical in the spring when pastures are just coming out.  With low magnesium levels in the soil, cattle, especially nursing mama cows are at risk of grass tetany which can be fatal without immediate treatment. 

Before adding any fertilizer, get the PH right for the crop you intend to grow.  It's not the same for all crops, some want a more acidic soil while others want a more basic soil.

[newoodguy78]

TreefarmerNN you bring up a very good point on the lime. Where I farm our soils tend to be higher in magnesium. Our local source of lime is just that high mag. When I started getting into we sourced a high cal lime which didn't cost but pennies more just had to make the right connections.

Time spent researching pays dividends in the long run. It's an awful rabbit hole once you start down the path. Very intriguing to me.

IMO money invested in lime is well spent, it helps create healthy soils. Commercial fertilizer (or any fertilizer for that matter) feeds the plant not the soil. There's a big difference. Healthy soils are what I'm after.

[TreefarmerNN]

The farm I grew up on and the family still owns was really well managed by my grandfather and father.  Probably not the best native soils but crop rotation, soil testing and the inclusion of livestock really got the best out of the soils.

In 2010, I got a farm with extremely sandy soil. Much, much different from what I grew up with and it's been interesting to learn the differences.  Until then, I didn't know sandy soils can be naturally high in phosphorus.  The first soil test results were so different that I thought the lab had screwed up the tests.  My other surprise was that sandy soil can have a compacted plow layer.  I could feel it when taking soil tests and it really surprised me. 

Different soils, different challenges and I'm still trying to learn.  I do wish it was practical to run cattle on the sandy soil but it's not really practical since my home is about an hour away.  Letting cattle graze for 2-3 weeks on a lush cover crop would really help the organic matter though.  Lots of good things happen with increased organic matter- water and nutrient retention, increased microbial activity, etc.  I'll figure it out one day. . . if I live long enough.

[newoodguy78]

It's definitely an on going learning experience, if you get set in your ways it'll lead to your demise or get really expensive.  The ground I'm responsible for now is for the most part very sandy, the heaviest soils are lighter than where I'm from. Worlds apart from what I was familiar with.
Like you mentioned about phosphorus they present their own challenges. Along with that sandy soils have a lower CEC and naturally can't hold as many nutrients. Along with calcium OM percentage and CEC are things I watch closely and want to see rising. For me trying to focus on organic matter and keeping live roots in the soil for as long as possible has paid off. There's more going on than I can understand but see the results.

Your grandfather and father certainly understood good farming practices. Livestock managed properly is probably the best thing you can do for soil health especially cows.

We started raising pigs last year. This year crops will be grown where they were pastured so to speak I'm excited to see how they do.

One little piece of trivia for anyone growing peppers. Once they're big enough to start developing seeds inside cut one open, if any sign of grayish color is found that's a tell tale sign of calcium deficiency. Probably too late to correct for that crop but gives an indication of what to work on. Peppers are calcium lovers.

[SwampDonkey]

Tomatoes to, lack there off and you get flower end rot. Your tomato will start developing and the end rots. Peppers will to.

[TreefarmerNN]

We've had blossom end rot on tomatoes at home in previous years.  Advice from a commercial vegetable farmer was calcium and throw the water on them.  Of course you have to watch out for splitting and other issues because of over watering.  One thing leads to another but if I'd had the soil right before planting, I would have been chasing one problem and causing another.  Lesson learned.  The funny thing is we grew tomatoes commercially when I was growing up so I should have known better.  But on the farm, it was just another crop- soil samples, correct ph and nutrient levels, side dress at various growing stages etc.  Scout for bugs and especially aphids and tobacco worms.  Compared to growing commercially, I'm a pretty lax gardener, lol.

[doc henderson]

lots of good info here.

[newoodguy78]

Tomatoes are a fickle labor intensive crop when grown commercially. One nice thing with tomatoes is they typically respond quickly to nutrient applications. We've had our fair share of blossom end rot in the past as long as you're paying attention it can usually be corrected before the next fruit set. Tissue samples are the only sure way I'm aware of to stay ahead of it. 

Always cracks me up watching people choose tomatoes, everyone wants the perfect tomato and everyone's opinion on what that is varies. 
Was in the store last year with the boss was a group of guys buying tomatoes they must of spent twenty minutes picking out the few they wanted. After they left told the boss good grief that was like watching someone choose who they were going to marry    She about spit her coffee out. 

[SwampDonkey]

I make a lot of sauce, so shape or whatever don't matter as long as it isn't rotten. 

[jeeper9574]

Treefarmer - Thanks that is a good idea. I believe that the 2,4,d is what was the recommended herbicide. Yea the more I think about this and get input, doing the soil test now is critical to developing a good plan moving forward.

Jeeper9574 are the fields you're battling bedstraw in older seedings? When do you typically take your first cutting and how many a year?
Curious what your soil tests say about calcium levels. The more I learn about healthy soils which ultimately produce healthy crops the more I realize how important calcium is. Not so much on hay ground but in vegetable ground I've seen firsthand the results of focusing on calcium. Yours and others might have different soils which would show different results.
Been using Humiflore a TiMac product (fertilizer company started in Europe) to help get calcium up, it's paid for itself undoubtedly.
Where are you located? if it's something you're interested in let me know I'll share the contact information. Just don't want to post someone's personal information publicly.

Yes these are older seedings, it has been quite a while. We typically do first cutting end of may/early june and usually get three cuttings a year. We have been trying to time the cuttings to prevent the bedstraw from going to seed but can be difficult depending on the weather. I am located in north central CT in the CT River valley area.  I may take you up on that but will wait to see the results of the soil tests first.

Thanks for all of the input and discussion. I am going to try and take soil samples today before the stretch of rain we are supposed to get.

[TreefarmerNN]

Tomatoes are a fickle labor intensive crop when grown commercially. One nice thing with tomatoes is they typically respond quickly to nutrient applications. We've had our fair share of blossom end rot in the past as long as you're paying attention it can usually be corrected before the next fruit set. Tissue samples are the only sure way I'm aware of to stay ahead of it.

Always cracks me up watching people choose tomatoes, everyone wants the perfect tomato and everyone's opinion on what that is varies.
Was in the store last year with the boss was a group of guys buying tomatoes they must of spent twenty minutes picking out the few they wanted. After they left told the boss good grief that was like watching someone choose who they were going to marry    She about spit her coffee out.

I wish I could remember the varieties we started out with.  Almost all of our tomatoes went to a local cannery but we sold a few as fresh market tomatoes.  When Roma came out, we switched to those so the cannery had a consistent tomato.  Initially everything was handpicked, loaded into baskets, hand put on the truck and hand dumped out of the baskets.  We had picking crews do most of the picking but the family loaded the trucks.  Some of the hardest work I've ever done was loading the trucks- it made picking up hay seem like a vacation. 
Then with Roma tomatoes we could dump the baskets into the truck which had low sides and was lined with plastic.  At the cannery the tomatoes were washed out of the truck with a high volume hose. 
We'd go through the fields at least twice and sometimes three times with handpicking.

A couple of years before we quit growing tomatoes we switched to machine harvest.  The early machines were temperamental but they improved and worked pretty well unless the field was muddy.  Machine harvest was one and done.

For a number of years, I didn't eat any tomatoes.  Maybe that explains why I'm not good at growing a few plants now, lol.

[newoodguy78]

I can appreciate your comments treefarmer. I've got a bean picker but other than that everything is hand picked. Pickles are another item thats a solid 16oz to the pound. 
This is always an exciting time of year and has me chomping at the bit to get going it's just about hammer time. Will say the first killing frost is another highlight of the season    By that time usually everyone is about fried and ready for change. 

[SwampDonkey]

I remember when McCains harvested peas for famers around here, the machines were proprietary, you could not go down to an implement dealer and buy on. McCains are a world wide food processor, headquartered 10 miles from here. They recently announced a campaign to promote regenerative farming methods in the UK but plan to spread globally.