Tips for preventing cable break related injuries when pulling stuff

[Ginger Squirrel]

I  have a big pile of trees from land clearing that I want to start picking away at to cut into fire wood. They are fairly tightly packed and I don't really want to climb it with the chainsaw either as it might be unstable.  Thinking of just tying a rope, chain or cable to one log at a time  and pulling with an ATV to break up the pile.

My biggest fear is the cable either breaking or coming loose, and snatching back at me, I know this can be a pretty dangerous thing when using winches or any form of pulling.  

What is the best way to protect from that?  I will probably just be using yellow rope, like the standard stuff you get at hardware stores, but if that's not strong enough then I might move to steel cables, and that's where things can get more dangerous.  I do know you're also not suppose to tie off to the ball hitch as the ball can actually sheer off and fly at very high speed.

[beenthere]

Smart/good to be careful. But gain more knowledge about rope, cable, and what an ATV can do. 

Can't offer much more without a pic or two of the log pile you are speaking about. 

[TroyC]

Pulling a decent size log with an ATV will put a lot of stress on the ATV, especially if the end of the log digs into the ground. Be careful and watch for snakes!

[TreefarmerNN]

Rope/cable can get very dicey as a strong pull is stored potential energy until something moves.  Either the object being pulled moves or the rope breaks.

Putting a blanket or tarp over the cable helps prevent it from flying by knocking it to the ground .  If you have an adequately sized cable, I doubt an ATV would break it when you do it correctly by slowly moving into the pull instead of getting a running start.  A running start can put 2-3 times the tension on a cable and there's no time to adjust things. 

Whatever you use, make sure the attachment points are secure and up to the strain.  A rope flying around is bad enough.  A piece of steel attached to that rope can be deadly.  Hooks and clevis can break and become missiles.  If you tie the rope off and don't use a hook or clevis, that danger is eliminated.

My pto powered winch has a screen which protects the operator.  It's a heavy wire with about 2" x 2" weave.  I still don't want to break a cable but unless it gets pinched, I don't have enough pull to break a 3/8" high strength cable.  If I think I'm going to put a lot of stress on the cable, I'm behind the screen. 

[Old Greenhorn]

First, stay away from rope, especially the kind you get in the box stores. It is poorly rated for pulling and flies like a rubber band when snapped. You can get rated braided winch rope on ebay for pretty cheap, just look at the load ratings. Cable is ok and anything 1/8" and up your are unlikely to break with a UTV. The other advice offered here is also accurate and true. Make your hitch point low on the UTV, at or below any ball hitch otherwise you could flip backwards and that can get you seriously hurt.
 Don't snatch (jerk) the load, use a steady pull. Jerking is what causes injuries and makes a mess. If you can't pull it with a steady load, then find another way such as using snatch blocks and Z rigs to multiply your force, this gives a big advantage of directly the line of fire away from you at the same time.
 Think this through carefully and try to imagine where the danger zone is if any component fails. 
 I once watched a failure of a block (double sheaves and a sling hook) and when that thing took off it went so fast my eye couldn't track it, it took all 4 leads of 3/4 rope with it as it flew to full extension in the other direction. The hook had straightened out where it was 3/4 thick. I think that block weighed 10 pounds. I could not imagine getting nailed by that thing at that speed. But nobody got hurt because we took all precautions.
 Just be careful.

[SawyerTed]

Use chain.  When you're done with cable it is aggravating to store, it gets kinked etc and doesn't roll up smoothly.   Rope doesn't last, even arborist's rope.  Both can be dicey if they break.  

When you are done using chain, you still have chain, it stores easily and lasts.   The dangers are less with chain but a failure of anything under tension is unpredictable.  Given a good grade of chain, you won't break it with an atv. 

[SawyerTed]

Grade 43 chain is an economical chain for general use but not rated for overhead lifting.  It's for logging, farming and load securing.  Working load is 20,000 pounds.   Wire rope will need to be 1/2" or larger to have equal working strength, I'm not certain on equavance.  Not as easy to manage heavy cable compared to chain especially on firewood size logs.  

[TreefarmerNN]

Rope/cable can get very dicey as a strong pull is stored potential energy until something moves.  Either the object being pulled moves or the rope breaks.

Putting a blanket or tarp over the cable helps prevent it from flying by knocking it to the ground .  If you have an adequately sized cable, I doubt an ATV would break it when you do it correctly by slowly moving into the pull instead of getting a running start.  A running start can put 2-3 times the tension on a cable and there's no time to adjust things. 

Whatever you use, make sure the attachment points are secure and up to the strain.  A rope flying around is bad enough.  A piece of steel attached to that rope can be deadly.  Hooks and clevis can break and become missiles.  If you tie the rope off and don't use a hook or clevis, that danger is eliminated.

My pto powered winch has a screen which protects the operator.  It's a heavy wire with about 2" x 2" weave.  I still don't want to break a cable but unless it gets pinched, I don't have enough pull to break a 3/8" high strength cable.  If I think I'm going to put a lot of stress on the cable, I'm behind the screen. 

[TreefarmerNN]

Grade 43 chain is an economical chain for general use but not rated for overhead lifting.  It's for logging, farming and load securing.  Working load is 20,000 pounds.   Wire rope will need to be 1/2" or larger to have equal working strength, I'm not certain on equavance.  Not as easy to manage heavy cable compared to chain especially on firewood size logs. 

Chain working load depends on grade and size.  I'm not sure what size Grade 43 has a working load of 20,000 lbs but that seems very high for a chain I want to lift. 

Since I use chain for both transport and logging, I just use Grade 70 to simplify my life.  I don't need to be wondering which chain I can use for transport or trying to read a proof mark on a link.

[YellowHammer]

I agree, use a chain.  Always put the hook on the top so if it breaks it will snap the chain down. However, and I may be wrong, but I have snapped a couple chains skidding logs and yes, they pop, but the links absorb the recoil and the energy and Ive never really seen one snap back hard, mostly they just pop and snap back a couple feet and fell to the ground.  Pretty much a non event.  

[SawyerTed]

@TreefarmerNN  I reread my post - you are correct!  The 20,000 pound chart I looked at was for 3/4" chain!   My error.   I wouldn't want want to pick that up either.  

Working loads are lower in the easier to handle sizes but still not likely to break using an atv.  

[Ianab]

I do know you're also not suppose to tie off to the ball hitch as the ball can actually sheer off and fly at very high speed.

Well if something is going to fail, you want it at the end where you are, so the shrapnel flies AWAY from you. If it's dragging logs, then make sure it's the log that gets whacked , not you. Those nasty accidents you read about are usually the tow ball coming off and flying through the window of the 4x4 they are trying to "jerk" out of the bog. Hits the towed victim in the head, and game over. The bolt on the tow ball was the weakest link, and the tension built up in the tow strop and did the rest. 

[TreefarmerNN]

I agree, use a chain.  Always put the hook on the top so if it breaks it will snap the chain down. However, and I may be wrong, but I have snapped a couple chains skidding logs and yes, they pop, but the links absorb the recoil and the energy and Ive never really seen one snap back hard, mostly they just pop and snap back a couple feet and fell to the ground.  Pretty much a non event. 

I have seen chains fly and it's a bit startling to say the least.  But an adequately sized chain isn't likely to break when using an ATV.

[Ginger Squirrel]

Good idea on the chain, I never considered how much of a pain cable could be to store. Didn't realize rope could still be violent, I was leaning that way thinking it would be the least violent if it does break and it's easy enough to cut to size.

Found this which is grade 70. https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/ben-mor-grade-70-transport-chain-chromate-gold-5-16-in-x-20-ft-0618860p.html?rq=grade+70+chain

I don't imagine I'll be putting a crazy amount of strain that it will break but like anything, things wear out, and can break over time, so still want to be on safe side. 

Come to think of it, what if I tie the chain to the ATV using rope, if something is going to break, it's most likely going to be the rope, then it will at least fly the other way.  And yeah I will want to hook up as low as I can to avoid from flipping, and just go slow. My ATV has a super low gear, it's almost a tractor.

I may potentially want to use snatch blocks so in that case I will need to use rope or cable but for what I'm doing I think I'll have enough power just pulling directly.

Here's a picture of one of the piles just to give an idea.  Goal would be to hook on to one of the lower logs that I can safely reach and pull.  I will chainsaw some grooves to act as a grip.  Probably use a chain and hook to wrap around the log tightly.  I imagine once I start to break up the pile they will pull out fairly easy.

[YellowHammer]

Over the years, I have gotten rid of all my cables and use chain exclusively.

I use 5/16 Grade 70 for a lot of work, I have a short one about 10 feet long with a slip chain hook on one end and a regular chain hook on the other.  This makes it easy to choke logs, and hook to longer lengths.  it's light and easy to handle.  Then I have a 20 footer that I hook to the choker chain and generally to the tow ring.  I also have a 30 footer for the long pulls, but don't need it much.  This rigging does about 90% of basic pulls but when I need the extra margin, I have the same setup in half inch chain.  

Grade 70 5/16 has a near 5,000 lb working load and near 20,000 lb failure strength.   

[beenthere]

Ginger
Follow the good advice of YellowHammer. 

What is the largest end diameter of the "logs" shown in that stack of brush in your photo? 

[Ginger Squirrel]

Sounds like a plan, the chain I linked to should be a good start then. I will get a couple different lengths along with hooks. Wont bother with cables or strings. So the keyword to look for is grade 70, on any hardware I get such as hooks etc. 

Most of these particular logs are small, I'd say well under 10". Been picking away at the ones I can get by hand.  Although I may pull some bigger ones from the bush at some other point too that are bigger so I'll want to get the right setup and be well above what I need. 

But sounds like chains are way to go so I'll go that route.

[thecfarm]

For a chain I would use this.
choker chain

I have a 40hp tractor with a 3pt winch and have never broke a chain.
The hook is not a grab hook. The chain will slide through the hook.
A grab hook will stay that size when you hook it up, where this type of chain can get smaller or bigger on the log.
You will need a grab hook to hook onto the end of the chain.
Some place that sells tractors should have a choker chain for sell.

[Hilltop366]

A grab hook mounted on the ATV and a choker hook (a slider hook will do but not as good) on the chain is all you need. No need for a hook on the other end of the chain for this task it just gets in the way. If you want to be able to add another chain for longer lengths you just need a grab hook on one end of the next chain.

The grab hook on the ATV gives you the ability to adjust the amount of chain out quickly and easily. A Tractor drawbar hook may be easier to rig on you ATV.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, follow the suggestions and recommendations on using chain. A better safety factor with chain.

[Ginger Squirrel]

So looking at these:

Chain: https://www.princessauto.com/en/5-16-in-x-16-ft-grade-70-recovery-drag-chain/product/PA0008918807?skuId=8918807

I'll get 2 in case I need more length I can adjust as needed.

Choker: https://www.princessauto.com/en/log-choker-with-tow-rings/product/PA0008575383?skuId=8575383

Can't find a chain style choker but this should work too right? 

I'll also make sure when I hook, that I'm hooking at the bottom of the log as suggested, so if something breaks it should hopefully just go down and not shoot up.

[Old Greenhorn]

That choker you have there is 3/16 cable. It will be a pain to rig, is not rated the samr as your chain and they often take a bight in a log and might be hard to remove. They will kink and twist over time. What you want looks like THIS . But you can just buy the chain and cut it, and buy your own hooks and install them. Only takes a few minutes to make a choker. They one I linked is the same chain size and rating as what you planned on using.

[Hilltop366]

Search "logging chain choker hook" and they should pop up. If you can't find one locally at a tractor shop or saw shop they are easy to get on line. Don't bother getting the choker with chain just the choker hook to add to a long chain.

This guy shows what I'm talking about for the hook and how I was talking about rigging it up with the grab hook on the vehicle and choker hook on the chain. He also has a grab hook on the other end of the chain that I would not bother with as it will hook on to things when you are dragging the chain by the choker end to hook on a log.

I would get a single piece of chain the length you think you need and avoid having to hook other parts together when hooking up logs or for extra length as it become time consuming and unreliable with stuff coming unhooked when you don't want them to.

[YellowHammer]

I use a round smooth chain slip hook as it needs to freely slide up the chain to choke the logs.  I detest any chain hook with the little spring loaded safety clip, they always break, and once you get the hang of it, you can unhook a slick round choker hook with a flip of your wrist without even having top bend over and reach down.  With my front end loader, I can unhook the choker by flipping the loader bucker and the hook falls off without me having to get down to unhook it. 

On the other end of the 10 foot chain is an actual chain hook shown in the other picture.  It is used to go through the "D" ring you should have or install in the trailer receiver hitch on your tow vehicle.  Don't use a ball to hook your chain around, that's pretty unreliable, I've had enough chains come off that I don't do it anymore.  I assume your ATV has a normal 2" receiver hitch, simply put in an empty receiver tongue with no ball attached and put a D ring through the hole and hook the chain to itself.  Or get the ready made version in the picture.

For the vast majority of tows with logs, the shorter the tow chain, the easier the ability to steer the logs and have them follow the ATV or tow vehicle.  A short chain also provide a little bit of "up" pressure to keep the log ends from digging in the dirt.  So choke the log, back up to the tow chain, pull it through the D ring, shorten the chain up as much as reasonable, and hook it back to the running length of chain.  Nothing is much worse than hooking and unhooking a chain under an ATV with the exhaust blowing in your face, so hook back into the chain in a convenient place down the running length of chain. 

From a practical side, a short 10 foot chain weighs half as much as a 20 foot chain, and after climbing a brushpile a few dozen times to attach a choker, the reduced weight will be noticed.  Most times long chains are not carried, they are dragged because they are heavy and full of poison ivy whereas a short chain chain be grabbed and carried or dragged. 

Anyway, as I mentioned, slick slip chain hook on one end, standard link chain hook on the other, D ring in the receiver hitch whether ATV, pickup truck, or tractor, and easy peasy, no big deal. 

 

   

[dougtrr2]

The chokers that came with my Farmi winch have a straight piece of rod on the end opposite the hook.  It makes it a lot easier getting it threaded under a log.

Doug in SW IA

[Hilltop366]

We use to rig a chain like you describe YellowHammer, we even had a old forged grab hook that was around 10" long with a 4" long chain slot in it, the long slot made it harder for the chain hook to fall out and the long overall hook length made a handle and it was much easier to grab the hook and hook it on the chain. We would hook on a log and take the slack out of the rest of the chain with the grab hook then drive the tractor ahead then back up and re-hook the grab hook on the chain shorter until the log was on the wood road then re-hook with a shorter chain so it could be lifted a bit to reduce drag and put weight on the rear of the tractor to haul to landing.

With the grab hook on the vehicle you are no longer restricted to how short you can make the chain so it was just a matter of hooking the chain on the log once and shorten on the grab hook and go to the landing. After we got a logging winch the chain method is not used any more but I put grab hooks on my tractor bucket and use that often to move things around, its so much easier and dependable to adjust the chain on the bucket hook than doubling the chain and it also gives you the ability to switch the chain around and use the grab hook end of the chain when needed when you don't want to have the chain choke around something. 

[Magicman]

I believe that at least 6 of my chains have a grab hook on one end and a slip hook on the other.  Works for me and my needs.

[beenthere]

And Ginger will be finding out what works for her, and then know if the ATV will pull anything out of the pile of tree tops she faces. But a good chain and a secure place to hook to on the ATV will be top of the list. Hope she lets us know.

[barbender]

You'll have a heck of a time pulling anything out of that pile with an ATV. All of those tops will be tied together with the cumulative weight of everything holding them all fast. Even if you had a cable skidder with a 20K# winch, you could hook a choker on to one log and half the pile would come with it.

 I'd cut the better stems loose from the pile, and then pull them away with the ATV. I think that's the only way you'll have any success.

[Hilltop366]

I figure it would work better and be safer to try and pull them off the top or near to it.

[thecfarm]

Hilltop, I moved a lot of logs doing the same thing with my Father.
My father would drive the tractor, and I would be the chain man. That hook better be hooked the way he wanted it too!!
But it was the right way to do it.

[Ginger Squirrel]

I will try to find that chain style choker in Canada, I think at this point I might only do this next year though as we were having a nice spring so was feeling like I could get it done this year but the weather just turned fast.  Lot of cold and rain. The cold is not so bad, but working in rain is no fun. Although I've been told they are planing to plow the main road year round now so I could end up going in winter before the snow gets too deep on the unplowed part of the property as I don't have much in terms of equipment there or place to store it.

But yeah I will have to experiment as I go. The best would be to pull from the top but I will see how possible it will be to pull from the middle or bottom.   I will probably be moving to different logs and going back and forth as I work it out. Come to think of it I might get more than one choker once I find a source as if I'm trying to jiggle logs around it may be useful to alternate where I pull from.

Oh and I'm actually a dude, I guess the screen name kinda sounds girly but I'm a ginger.

[Ginger Squirrel]

Found this, so got two, just to make the shipping more worthwhile:

https://theforestrystore.com/products/choker-chain?_pos=1&_sid=02d3eafa7&_ss=r

And I'll get some 1/2" grade 70 chain locally at the hardware store with regular hooks just so it matches the same rating. Then I'll be ready for whenever I get the chance to go out to my property again whether it's this year or next year.  I do want to try to squeeze in one last trip this year as it would be nice to bring my ATV there and leave it there, to make room in my garage so I can do work in it this winter.   Also will be good to have some firewood ready for next year already sitting on the property, even if I don't get around to splitting it at least it will be in rounds. 

[YellowHammer]

I tried the hook welded on the tow vehicle thing, decades ago, but I didn't like it.  Two hooks welded to the bucket of the tractor, a hook welded to the landscape box, a hook welded to the bush hog, a hook on every other implement I happened to have in the woods at the time. which size? 5/16" or 1/2" Or both?  Then a hook would break, so weld on another.  Or just don't. 

Now I move logs with the excavator, or the track loader, or the trailer,  but I still use my short chains all the time for various jobs on the farm.  My long chains just lay in a rusty pile in a couple milk crates in the shed.   

In my mind, a chain need to have a hook on both ends, no matter what it's used for, and one hook may as well be a slip hook. 

[thecfarm]

Much better price then the link I posted. Two for the price of one. 
Good luck with the job.
Pulling at different angles might get things moving better. May take 3-4 times to get a log out.

[Ginger Squirrel]

The chains came in, will still need to buy regular chain lengths but the local places seem to have that so I'll just get it locally whenever.  



Hoping to get a day off with decent weather so I can go and try these out sometimes. If I go I'll post back with results.

[Peter Drouin]

They work well, I have some.

[Ginger Squirrel]

Got a chance to try this out today.  I bought a 20 foot 1/4" grade 70 chain and an assortment of hooks so I can figure out what works best. I found the slip hooks, at least the ones I got, don't insert properly into the chain, but I also had some quick hooks so I will probably just use those for attaching the lengths together and to the ATV.  ATV does not have a good spot to hook to so I did the faux pas of using the hitch ball but I figure if it breaks it's going the other way, and odds of it happening is slim to none.  Traction is the limiting factor not the steel. 

Managed to pull out some smaller logs, and also snap some in half if they were very stuck, but I don't think this will work out well for the very big ones that are very jammed in there. Didn't have that much time as I wanted to head back home before it gets dark and the days are very short now, but at least I know this works.  I have a good 10 or so logs that are loose and ready to be bucked for the next time I go for a visit.  The choker chain really holds on well though, so that worked out nicely.

Over the winter I want to brainstorm what I want to build next and that will require making quick work of the piles to free up the space, so I might end up renting an excavator to handle that in order to get it done faster, and I can also use the excavator to prep the ground for the structure while I have it, and maybe even dig an outhouse.  But in the mean time I'll pick away at it with the ATV.