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? Judging tree vigor by bark ?

Started by sprucebunny, September 03, 2005, 03:56:48 PM

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sprucebunny

Let's say I have 2 white pine, both 16 " dbh . One has bigger plates of bark and a lighter , smoother look. The other has smaller and closer darkish plates of bark and is rougher looking. My guess is that the first tree is growing well and the second has slowed down in it's growth rate.

Is that the right guess ???
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Tom

Even though they left an hour apart, the first train will arrive in Chicago first.  :D


Heck, I don't know.  It just sounded like one of those algebra test questions we used to get in school.   :D :D

SYP, down here, will do the same thing.  I don't know what causes it.   The same aged trees will have different looking bark.  It's more site specific for them I think.  It does seem that the older pines develop a thick bark.   I've seen old loblolly with bark plates that are several inches thick.  My guess is that it's as much a genetic thing as it is age.  I'll be sitting by waiting for an answer from someone who knows. 


Here is a start.  it looks like it can get really confusing.
Bark LINK

Now, look what you've done!  You've got me interested in something else and I haven't finished the other quadrillion things I got interested in before.   :D
What are the guys calling it, AADD?

sprucebunny

Thanks, Tom. That's interesting.
I didn't mean to distract you ;D

I'm asking because I'm starting to cut bigger trees and often must decide between 2 right next to each other. I've seen differences in the bark of spruce right next to each other too, so I was wondering if it was something to consider.
;D
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

floyd

which tree has the longest leader?

Is 1 spaced closer to trees around it than the other?

only way to be sure is bore 1 & see what kind of growth it's putting on.

Tom

Probably one of the elder Foresters will have an opinion.  It probably does indicate tree maturity in some fashion, but I've found myself judging which to take by looking at the crown.  An old forester that used to help me when I got started told me that you can't judge much about a forest by looking straight ahead.  He would always be calling out to me, "Look up, Look up".   I spent a good deal of time on the ground because I wasn't watching where I was walking. :D

If you look up, you can better judge which tree is canopied over or has the best crown.  Things like cat-faces, dead limbs and unhealthy leaves show up.  I guess he had a good point. :)


sprucebunny

The two I'm thinking of seem equal as far as crown and spacing so I'm hoping that the bark will be the final determining factor. If one is still growing well, I'll leave it and cut the other.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Minnesota_boy

If I had 2 white pines the were 16"diameter at breast height and was looking to choose which to cut, I'd look at a different species.  Unless there is an indication of stress such as decreased amount of needles in the crown, I'd let them grow a little more.  Something like another 100 years would be about right.
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Timburr

I'm with Tom on the genetic thing.
Human siblings, although genetically very similar to each other, can be as different as chalk and cheese. This analogy, when applied to trees, shows the subtle differences of the juvenile stock from the same parent tree. Even greater variations occur between sub-strains of the same species.
Another minor factor, I'm guessing, is micro-environmental.....some trees could have a tad more potash than it's neighbour....more sunlight on it's trunk....slightly more wind exposure.......better access to ground moisture........    They all have an effect on form.

As a general rule, when the tree grows faster than the bark can accommodate, the bark develops 'stretch marks', but this certainly is no exact science. Years of experience is needed to read it.
Sense is not common

SwampDonkey

I'm guessing it would be difficult to tell the health of a tree without seeing it in situ. I think anyone 'appraissing' those trees goes by alot of experience aquired over the years and growing conditions. Difficult to assess from a far. ;)

Ok, I guess that's essentialy what's been said already. ;)

For me, bark on white spruce and balsam fir tells alot about their health as does the crown.

I seen alot of good money wasted on 50 year old over topped balsam fir by thinning it and seeing that most of that junk is full of but rot. Usually an over story of poplar, white birch and red maple have been removed. The mix of suckered hardwoods in the trails with that junk fir between the harvest trails is suppose to make it look like good thinning.  >:(
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Scott

The trees may not be of the same age even though they are of the same diameter class. One may be growing  fasrer than the other based on current stand and site conditions.

If they are both healthy white pine trees at 16 inches diameter, have good crown spacing and form class, you might not want to cut them yet, unless white pine is all you have and the stand is in need of thinning to 90-100 square feet basal area. You may want to retain them as seed trees at present.

If you must, cut the worst first with professional judgement.  ;)
~Ron

Tom

But, Ron......

Can you get an indication of the growth rate or stress inhibitions by the looks of the bark;  Thin and Smooth as opposed to thick and rough?

SwampDonkey

I'll lend an example Tom for balsam fir for instance.

Balsam fir bark that has no pitch bubbles has been suppressed if the diameter of the tree is small (up to 6 inches for example). Also, the bark will often be more gray. If it has a flat-topped crown it will re-inforce that assessment. If it's been slow growing because of soil conditions there will be lichen in the branches on real dry sites as well as wet sites. If the tree is young and vigourous there will be lots of pitch bubbles and the bark is darker. I've seen 50 year old balsam fir no more than 3 feet tall with an overstory of 30 year old poplar. ;)

There are alot of species that might not indicate vigour as well by looking at bark. It's just one indicator used from a list of many others. ;D

With white cedar for example I think bark it indicates more about development stage (notice I didn't say age) than vigour. Development stage has a range of ages for each species group.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Scott

Thin and smooth bark would normally be a characteristic that indicates a faster growth rate and good health, especially in younger aged trees, but access the other characteristics and site condition also such as height, form, crown diameter, defects, dominance, growth rate, exposure, soil condition, etc.   
~Ron

sprucebunny

Thanks, Ron and SwampDonkey, too.

I found a 10 acre stand of white pine which is all 16 " dbh and a few balsam/spruce under it. ;D

These two trees are only 5 feet apart and I will be needing some pine boards in the furure so I want to cut the right 1 or 2. The only difference between them seems to be the bark.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Minnesota_boy

Quote from: sprucebunny on September 05, 2005, 06:30:34 PM
I found a 10 acre stand of white pine which is all 16 " dbh and a few balsam/spruce under it. ;D

These two trees are only 5 feet apart and I will be needing some pine boards in the furure so I want to cut the right 1 or 2. The only difference between them seems to be the bark.

So cut them both down and note the differences betweent he two of them.  Then you can be the expert on white pine and its bark characteristics.  ;D
I eat a high-fiber diet.  Lots of sawdust!

Furby

I was kinda thinking the same thing. ;D

jayfed

The fact that the two trees are so close, genetics is less likely a factor since the seed source is probably the same.

To use an example that might serve to answer your question, I turn to my short work experience with working with Ponderosa Pine in Idaho.

The youngest and fastest trees were the partially protected 10-14" within the densest stands on the flatter areas.  These pines had nearly black bark with orange-edged thinner and smaller plates. The growth space between the plates were distinct.

As one progressed to the hillsides where there had been no cutting and the dominant trees were mature at their 30-50" diameters, The plates were much larger, thicker and had an almost bleached look to their color.  The occurance of tufted pine needle clusters at the branch ends and not back along the limb was more prevalent.

The trees falling between these two extremes had the more common orange coloration.

I would be inclined toward the daker pine being the more vigirous of the two. But, with pine, a canopy check would be useful. If you can not really distinguish a difference I would also be more inclined towards taking the pine on the more shady side of the pair so as not to unduly expose the tree with the least amount of branches facing the SE to SW side. Might as well let grow with the tree having the 'sunniest' disposition.

(Sidebar: In northern hardwoods, bark is an excellent indicator of tree health to the point that even the prescence of abnormal lichen and moss growth on a tree within a stand that has only some occurance is subject to being marked for cutting.)

Yooper-at-large
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