iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Pros and cons?????

Started by lyle niemi, March 13, 2012, 08:11:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lyle niemi

I see that there is alot of people with bandsaw mills now. Im sure this has been asked before but what are the pros and cons between an old headsaw mill like mine and a bandsawmill??? I can see some obvious advatages with the bandsaw.    Lyle

hackberry jake

Bandsaw pros; Requires less horsepower/fuel to operate at the same cutting rate. More manuverable. Safer (some people may argue, but I have worked both and in my experience the bandsaw is much safer). Takes out less kerf.

Circle pros; A higher output mill can be had for less $ than a higher output bandmill. If there is enough HP supplied and hydraulic handling, the production is unmatched. Cheaper over time for blades and easier to sharpen.

The pros of one are the cons of the other. I probably misses a few, but I'm sure someone will help me out with the rest.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

bandmiller2

Bandmills can be a backyard operation,circular mills are a mini industrial site.Circular is the best bang for the buck, production wise,but the most involved to set up. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

MHineman

  Bandmills have not only a smaller kerf, but a smoother kerf.  If I cut well to minimize cupping of the board, I can get a planed board smooth on both sides and lose less than 1/8" off each side.
  If your goal is to sell dry, S2S (surfaced 2 sides) lumber at the nominal 3/4" thickness, your rough board can be at or less than 1".  You can get a extra board out of the log and make less passes through the planer.
1999 WM LT40, 40 hp 4WD tractor, homemade forks, grapple, Walenstein FX90 skidding winch, Stihl 460 039 saws,  homebuilt kiln, ......

lyle niemi

Quote from: bandmiller2 on March 13, 2012, 09:30:59 PM
Bandmills can be a backyard operation,circular mills are a mini industrial site.Circular is the best bang for the buck, production wise,but the most involved to set up. Frank C.
I paid 1000 bucks for mine. The only real expence so far was getting the blade work done on it today. Im thinkin that was a good deal for that mill????

hackberry jake

Forgot to mention, circle mill can handle larger logs most of the time
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: hackberry jake on March 13, 2012, 10:53:39 PM
Forgot to mention, circle mill can handle larger logs most of the time

Although both come in all different sizes.

I would suggest that generally speaking, circle mills are best for low-margin high-volume operations, and band mills (and swing mills) are better for high-margin, low-volume operations. But that too is a generalization.

From all I have seen, band mills do seem to be much safer than traditional circle mills. If you keep your hand away from the blade, which is fairly easy to do, you shouldn't cut yourself. With a circle mill, there is a lot of opportunity for a shattered blade to throw big pieces of steel around, foreign objects like scraps of wood can fall into the blade and get launched at speeds high enough to kill or maim, and a blade can actually break free from its axle if the nut comes loose. You do not want to be in the same zip code if the blade comes off. Plus the blade is better guarded, typically, on a band mill, and if somehow you fell or got pushed toward the blade, it is much more hazardous to fall toward a circle blade as there will basically be only bits and pieces to pick up. If a band mill cuts off your had or foot or finger or whatnot, it is a fairly clean surgical cut and there is a much higher chance for reattachment than for whatever the circle mill spits out.

You didn't ask about swing mills, but it seems to me that swing mills are slightly more dangerous than band mills, but nowhere near as dangerous as traditional circle mills.

All saw mills are dangerous, and you must fear the blade at all times.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Tree Feller

According to Dr. Gene Wengert, there is generally more degrade in circular-sawn lumber than in band-sawn lumber.

The reason cited is that circular saws will continue to saw after they have dulled  whereas dull band blades will heat up, resist cutting, produce wavy cuts, etc. and must be changed.

A slightly dull circular saw blade will tear the wood fibers slightly and those tears can become checks during the drying process.
Cody

Logmaster LM-1 Sawmill
Kioti CK 30 w/ FEL
Stihl MS-290 Chainsaw
48" Logrite Cant Hook
Well equipped, serious, woodworking shop

Ron Wenrich

Okra

I've sawn over 50 million bf and 1 million logs.  Never had any of those things happen that you talk about with the circle mill.  The blade won't fall off if the nut falls off.  The guide will keep it there.  Only ever heard of 1 blade that shattered, and that was due to operator stupidity error.

We've had lumber buyers who wouldn't buy bandsawn lumber due to quality.  That comes from wavy cuts.  It isn't the equipment, its the operator. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Kansas

I guess a lot of it depends on what you want to accomplish. Most bandmills are built for portability. The high/low volume high/low margin comments were correct. But one thing I want to point out is this; log costs are going to rise. Too many people have gone out of the business, and diesel does not seem to be getting cheaper. The days of getting a log laid in on the place for pallet lumber for 18 or 20 cents is coming to a close, if it hasn't already happened. Grade log prices will go up, and bandmills get more out of the log.  Circle mills can do large outputs of volume and if you are cutting cants, they work fine. You don't have the kerf loss. But it seems to me to really be efficient you have to have band saws to go with a circle mill. Depending on cutting application, resaws or a grade resaw runaround is going to be a lot more efficient. Problem is, you need all the people to run the stuff. On the other hand, you will never be able to buy used equipment cheaper than now.

How much you want to cut in a day, what you want to cut, how many people if any do you want to employ, future plans, would be the key questions.

Ron Wenrich

But, you're talking industrial bandmills with a 1/8" kerf.  They have better production rates than a typical circle mill, and a lot depends on what you're cutting.  This comes more from material handling than the type of saw.  Most setups that use a resaw have a circle mill for primary breakdown.  A lot depends on what you want to cut.

I run some numbers one time on mill costs and kerf loss.  The kerf didn't become a factor unless you were running high value wood.  At that time, you had to average $600/Mbf log run.  Hard to do on a commercial mill. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

I use boath,the danger of a circular mill is overrated,I've been barked up much more changing bands than ever working around the big saw.A cluts is in danger with a screwdriver,the greatest slicer is a chainsaw.As i said before a circular mill is much more complicated to set up and requires more space.Close neighbors may object to the wine of the big saw. There are some things that just command respect,headsaws,chippers and great white sharks. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

FeltzE

Good points, no disagreements. 


Assumption: Comparison of 1 1/2" bandmill to a 50" circle mill, less than 10000bf/8hrs through put

Circular
Conns
- Generally stationary
- Must change or sharpen/swage teeth if you hit tramp metal. $1each+/- x number of teeth
- thicker kerf, more saw dust
- may be difficult to initially set up and true out
Pros
- Often less expensive to get started with
- Faster cut speeds/ higher daily through put
- will often cut well and straight with a dull blade
- once set up and running right they take very little maintenance

Band Saw
Conn
- Band blades easily deviate from straight cuts in knotty wood
- Band saw blades must be changed or resharpened often especially in dirty wood (without a mud saw/debarker)
- Over feeding (sawing too fast) results in poor quality cuts (wavy)
- Blade must be sharpened or changed immediately if tramp metal is encountered
- Higher initial purchase price for a moderately productive mill
- Lower daily through put compared to a similarly priced circle mill
Pros
- Band blades are inexpensive $20+/- each Resharpened for about $8 incl shipping. An advantage if you cut a lot of residential yard timber.
- Portability (in most cases) 5 minute setup on some saws then ready to cut
- Smaller kerf, less sawdust produced
- Custom portable sawmill operation can be run with a PU truck, cant hook, chain saw, and sawmill doing mostly portable work.


IMO:
1 1/2" band based sawmills are great for the custom cutting market. Great portability for someone who isn't maintaining a log yard and larger operation. The sawmill profit margin based on producton BF and man power it just isn't there for a large comercial operation. Besides that the cost of the sawmill isn't the driving factor in the larger operation, it's everything else. The saw needs to keep up!!!

A recent visit from a sawyer from the north west commented on the quality of our lumber and general capabilities of my micro operation. The sawmill  he works at runs 400,000 bf/24hr day. Their bf profit margin would bankrupt virtually everyone I know who saws custom work. Their product is measured in accuracy of .001" and everything is consumed or sold. There really isn't a comparison between the two operations financially in any respect.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on March 14, 2012, 06:47:20 AM
Okra

I've sawn over 50 million bf and 1 million logs.  Never had any of those things happen that you talk about with the circle mill.  The blade won't fall off if the nut falls off.  The guide will keep it there.  Only ever heard of 1 blade that shattered, and that was due to operator stupidity error.

We've had lumber buyers who wouldn't buy bandsawn lumber due to quality.  That comes from wavy cuts.  It isn't the equipment, its the operator.

You're right, Ron, but it is exactly that operator error factor I am talking about. With a band saw there is less high risk involved. I have never been present for any of the accidents or incidents I mentioned, but have been told about them. Especially the launching of foreign objects that hit the blade, most everyone I talk to who has been around circle mills much has something to tell about that. I also knew an operator who told about shutting down his mill only to find out the nut that held the blade on had worked its way almost off. Evidently he hadn't tightened it enough. He also said that the people he bought the mill from had shattered a blade and one piece had hit one of the men in the shoulder requiring stitches. The production mill I sell pine to will custom cut soft species up to and including cherry, but prefer not to do oak and refuse to do hickory because they shattered a blade sawing hickory once.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Meadows Miller

Ohh this ole one again  :) :) ;) :D :D :D Ill quote Ron here ;) "It isn't the equipment ,its the operator. it about sums it up for me across the board  imho as alot of it comes down to the thing between our ears as that is where how well our machines run ,how much recovery/overrun in the best grades possible comes from  ;) And I think that in general mill run where you are cutting a full mix of 2x & 1x in average size logs where you are not going to get the accumulative gain of the saw kerf to have any affect on recovery :);) You call me a fence sitter  :) :D :D as I have run Circs ranging from the 6-18 Lucas though to large twin rigs running 54" saws one ontop of the other in a vertical plane and single saw rigs s upto about 60" and I have run bands from 1ΒΌ right through to 12" so I know they all have their pros n cons and their sweet spots  ;) its upto you to decide which is rite for the sawing task at hand if it was me Id have one of each ;):):)

Regards
4TH Generation Timbergetter

thecfarm

I only run a manual band mill. It's a very simple mill to maintain. Blade wise too. It's just about put the log on and cut it.I don't mean just cut it,have to the the same thing with it no matter what blade you are using to open it up with. Don't have to have the blade sent out to be hammered. I feel a bandsaw is easy to run. Maybe less intimidating too. I have been around a circular saw before, Seemed kinda scary to me,but I suppose cuting down trees would scare some people too. A band mill learning curve is not so much either,I feel. But I only have to push the head and run the throttle too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Meadows Miller

Feltze you made some dang good points there Mate  ;) ;D ;D ;D 8) 8)
4TH Generation Timbergetter

hackberry jake

I said circle mills we're more dangerous  because I worked at a production mill that ran a 350 hp three phase head saw with verticals edgers. If the saw ever found a good sized piece of metal, it would rip shanks and teeth out and send them through the roof. It looked like someone had taken a machine gun to it. I also saw it pick up chunks of busted log and throw them out the back wall. All these fairly scary things were safe garded though. The sawyer sit in a saw cab with bullet proof glass and everybody else was plenty far away from the danger zone. So I'll rephrase. Circle mills aren't more dangerous, they just need more safe guards to keep them safe.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

beenthere

Maybe for newbies getting into sawing logs, the bandmill would be easier for one to stay out of trouble.

However, being around both small bands and small circles, I'd rather have the circular.

If the saw is the only breakdown machine (no edger available) then the circular rig is easier to edge lumber (IMO) and much more flexible sawing larger logs than the bands.
Probably takes more "mechanical" smarts to understand, operate, and maintain the circular saw rig too. That is not said to impune any band operators either. ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Okrafarmer

I think like cfarm said, there is a bigger learning curve on a circle mill, and to add to that, I think it is easier to make a very costly or dangerous mistake with a circle mill. Once a trustworthy, conscientious person learns the ins and outs of a circle mill, I am sure they can do quite well with it and be very safe. Like Jake said, they can be very safe, but it takes more to make them safe.

It just seems to me that bandmills are a little more forgiving to newbies and people who don't have the smarts. By no means am I putting down anyone who uses one-- I use one. But it's kind of like the difference between carrying around an axe and carrying around a gun, in both cases you have to be careful not to hurt yourself or anyone else, but the gun has a broader range of damage it can do if you're not careful with it. An axe, you almost have to be deliberate with it to do damage, but with a gun you can blow a hole in your head, or someone else's, just by a combination of a wrong position combined with a wrong action. All this can be avoided by practicing proper gun safety. All circle mill accidents can be avoided by practicing proper equipment safety. All accidents are avoidable-- well except for the freak accidents you just can't account for. But they are a very tiny percentage of all accidents.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Jeff

Quote from: Okrafarmer on March 14, 2012, 11:16:24 PM
I think like cfarm said, there is a bigger learning curve on a circle mill, and to add to that, I think it is easier to make a very costly or dangerous mistake with a circle mill. Once a trustworthy, conscientious person learns the ins and outs of a circle mill, I am sure they can do quite well with it and be very safe. Like Jake said, they can be very safe, but it takes more to make them safe.

This seems a fitting place to refer to this old topic. :)

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,7893.0.html
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Okrafarmer

I had not seen that post, Jeff. That is what I am referring to-- I don't think band mills usually present that kind of hazard to bystanders. I'm sure you can get injured from a breaking band blade, but the speed and force of those teeth on the circle mill, shearing off and going who-knows-where, it's just like bullets. Hopefully most of them go straight up, but they don't always, do they?

Reminds me of a quote from Moby Dick (paraphrasing) : "leave that whale alone-- he doesn't bite-- he swallows."
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

ALWOL

   I like the circle mills also. The best part about 'em, is that friends and family don't ask to borrow! Not even the portable.
There's a big difference between staying busy and making money.

bandmiller2

On my mill I've always cut down to one inch last board,that means you saw is passing off the knees about 5/8 to 3/4" your heart is in your throat on that last cut,thats a big reason for saw guides.The last board problems don't stop there the offbearer usally will grab the last board by the bottom and pull it out from under the dogs.You got to watch any swinging dogs that might not retract.When your a sawyer try not to ever stand in line with the saw,which is why I always throttle down and declutch the arbor when I'am turning logs and cants.Accidents usally happen when your trying for max production and hurrying. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Thank You Sponsors!