I know none of the rest of you have ever run out of storage space but first I built a 14'X62' pole barn. It filled up so I built shelves and went vertical. All of them filled up. I nailed a tarp to the end and that space is full of benches and the tarp is wearing out. I have stacks of lumber on blocks in the pasture with metal roofing on top and logs I have not sawed because no place to put them.
I finally decided to build another shed/pole barn in my lower lot. I have to back off at least 10' from an overhead power line running from a transformer on a pole in my pasture across the creek and road to a neighbor's place. I bought a bunch of good used metal roofing in 11-18 ft lengths (total 180 running feet and 3' wide). I tried digging holes and setting poles there but it is tough digging due to the rocks and such. I got the 2 poles for the short end set then Wednesday I stopped and picked up my auger I bought with my used tractor 2 years ago. I spend a good bit of the day yesterday trying to free up the link to the PTO which I had removed from the head of the auger. I put it in a vice and used a pipe wrench got the 2 parts rotating but not sliding in and out freely. I think I moved it 6-8 inches. I used plenty of WD40 and got a can of PB Blaster rust remover last night and put it on today. I finally chained one end to the upright on my pole barn and the other to the ball hitch on my ATV and finally got it free. I soaked the female side good with rust remover and took my belt sander to the male section till it was shiny. I sprayed it and put them together and they worked freely. I drained and put 2 quarts of gear oil in the auger head and can likely use a little more. Found a 4" bolt to hold the 10" bit on the auger head and I was in business.
I measured., marked drilled the other front corner 28" from the first and dug about 2' till impassable rock. I set that corner which was very solid then marked and dug the next hole about 28" and broke the bolt connecting my auger head and bit. I pulled the bit out with my FEL and set that pole which went up real well. If the weather permits and no major equipment problems I will drill and set the next/final front pole then I can mark and dig the back then middle poles.
Looks like my internal dimensions will be 12' short end, 28' on the front, about 20' on the long end and whatever the diagonal on the back works out to be for my trapezoid shaped shed/barn. I will need 3 internal poles I figure on the wide end of the barn/shed and some spans up to 16-18 ft on the narrow end with 12-18 inch overhang. I figure 12'-13' height on the front and 10' or so on the back. Then I'll start sawing some more long framing to fit the distances involved. Having a mill caused this problem but will solve it too. I figure I will use some of my metal roofing to help square things up when I start framing and putting on my nailers for my metal. That is faster and easier than figuring angles and such for me.
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One more pole for the front, the 3 corners are set. I'll probably have to move my that last stack of mostly 5/8" ash siding back against the fence. Odd shape lot, lots of rock and a couple feet in elevation change which is pretty flat for WV.
Once built I will have to decide if I want to enclose it or not. I can't come forward more because of overhead power lines. I will store my benches and maybe prefab a bus stop or two to keep in here and fill in the rest of the space with mantels and LE slabs and such. This may be weeks to months before finished depending on weather and lake levels for fishing (Gotta keep priorities straight!).
There are three immutable laws of sheds that are as immutable as Murphy's law.
First you have already discovered Law one is Sheds are never big enough.
Second law is go much longer because length is cheap sq footage as the end walls and and overhead doors are the expensive parts.
Third iaw is to go real high like 14 foot or more at the eaves because when you run into the space issue from law one you can put a lean to off the side for more cheap square footage
All three laws look right. Also it is good to go for longer overhangs which help protect the walls and makes it easier for making those lean to's.
Always good to be making progress on additional storage. I'm curious why you're making it a trapezoid. Must be a good reason, but I missed it if it was in your post.
I am making it Trapezoid to fit the lot space. The front is parallel to the power lines, the ends go back to the fence then angle along the wood line till I run out of usable space due to a rock bar and boulders at the upper end. Remember flat land in WV is at a premium and it often comes in small patches and odd shapes. Even this piece drops 2-3 ft in elevation on a 28' run. See the height difference between the poles on that front run. The height of my lowest pole is my limiting height factor unless I want to start stair stepping, which I also considered.
Roger. Thanks for that explanation. Making the best of the situation at hand. Makes sense.
Yeah, my preference would have been a rectangle or square but I need all the space I can get even if it is a corner.
BTW - did you know why many African huts were built round? Because they believe evil spirits are little men who hide in the corners. That is also one of the reasons they built their beds up high so the little men could not jump up while they were asleep. (I suspect snakes and bugs on the floor may have also influenced that decision which I heartily endorse. I know - a little off track but inquiring minds want to know. :D)
Good thing to know. Maybe sawmill sheds should be round. Then the evil spirits wouldn't raise the backstops just as I'm making a pass. :D :D
Hmm I have a couple empty round grain bin slabs, so no evil spirits hmmm..maybe I should put my hay equipment in a round shed..... Nice start on your new one btw.
Looks good. I have the same problem, have to build around the rocks. Most are too big to move
Put a carriage bolt in my auger bit and promptly broke that so went to local hardware store and bought a couple of 7/16" grade 8 bolts. Drilled 4 more holes but 2 were only a foot or so deep before I hit big rocks. I'll have to put the other poles up on either side so I can nail the framing up to hold the poles in place. The more I add the stronger it will get. I got the final corner installed. The back side will be 30'4" outside to outside and the long end is 22' outside to outside. I got one more pole installed on the back, moved a stack of wood, dropped it and had to restack it. The auger has a hard time in the rocks but is sure a lot easier than manually digging the holes. I need to saw some 2X12's to run the rafters across and grab a string and snap some lines. I snap a string the nail a short, scrap 2X4 or 2X6 at the mark as a shelf to rest the heavy framing on. It is a bear to get these big heavy poles and framing up by myself. The tractor and FEL and auger is a huge help but an extra set of hands would make life so much easier and faster just to hold a pole plumb or tamp it in while it is in position. Oh well, all 4 corners are up and a couple of line poles.
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Outside measurements now front 28'. lower end 12', upper end 22' and back 30'4". Low corner is 9'6" which will be max height of the back unless I decide to stair step the roof. I'll probably extend the roof 18" on all sides.
This is gonna be cool when it's done! Around here we wouldn't hit any rock until we got at least an inch down. :D
OGH,
I typically tell folks if you dig 6" and haven't hit a rock to immediately stop because you are over the gas or water line and somebody has already moved the rock that used to be there. :D I guess it is kind of like the guys who pour footers then build on that. Our footers are already there on you have to guess the depth before you find them. It sure makes it a challenge when you are thinking to dig down about 30" or so so the ground will hold your pole upright till you get it plumb and tamped.
Years ago my FIL in Ala told my BIL who was building a big pole barn to just dig the holes, put the poles in place then the framing would square everything up as he installed it then to fill and tamp the dirt around the poles. Makes sense that should work.
I used to live in a place where you could dig a 4' hole (by hand, with just a shovel) and would not have enough rocks to fill a gallon bucket, all nice round quartz rocks. But where I am now, well, not so much. I dug 3 holes 20 years ago to rebuild my attached porch for the 12" sono-tube. It took me 2 weeks in the evenings with a pick, shale bar, and small shovel. I got down 3' and hit shelf. I showed the building inspector. He laughed. He said drill a few holes, drop rebar in the shelf and pour your tubes. SO I did.
I have a shelf under my place the is 2' above grade at the road edge and slopes to 4' below grade at the back edge of my property. It's all clay, bluestone, and shelf. Digging holes here is always the hardest and biggest part of any project. Don't ask what we had to do to put the 1,000 gallon septic tank in the yard. That was quite a deal which included two big track hoes (one with a hammer), a skid steer (which fell in the hole, but another story), and lots of dump loads. Basically the guy cut a square hole through the shelf about 12' deep. The leach field was another issue.
My son lives 10.3 miles up the road from me and his place sounds like you describe. He bought a pre-fab home they brought in and assembled on site. He was going to dig a basement about 8' below ground to set the house on so it would sit about ground level but he hit bedrock at about 2' so now you walk up about 6' of steps to get to his porch and enter his house. He occasionally has a large hardwood tree uproot and you see the roots went down about 2' then spread widely. They went to drill his well, hit water at about 30' but dug/drilled to 300' hoping for a bigger stream then gave up and use that 300' as his reservoir. I grew up in Fla where we had no rocks. If we dug a well we had to case it as we went or the sand and gravel would fill in behind you. Around here they typically do not case wells. Our biggest problem when digging a post hole was there was not enough clay in the soil to get the clump to stay together so we could lift it out with the hole diggers. We had a family chain link fence business so I was pretty good at digging post holes. In fact my dad used to sign paperwork and put PhD at the end of his signature. When some one questioned him he told them he had earned it as he was a Post hole Digger. :D
OK, one last little tid-bit, then I gotta hit the rack. Where I live is an old area, the stone industry dates back about 200 years and a lot of the bluestone that lined the city streets in New York came from here and specifically within a 10 mile circle of my house. The cobble stones, the bluestone that buildings were faced with and sidewalks were laid with. Bluestone mining and cutting is still an industry here, but much smaller. The road I live on was one of those where they transported the heavy stone boats (steel tired wagons) carrying the big slabs to the railroad depot in town (now underwater in the reservoir which feeds water to NYC ironically, they bought our stone, then took our water). The road was paved with bluestone to handle the weight of the wagons and those wagons wore grooves in the bluestone 3" deep. Those slabs popped up here and there during different modern road projects. I have a piece on my front lawn. Most folks don't know what they are. My neighbors has one and he doesn't know what it is.
Oh, and the road I live on, its called Stone Road. Had that name for a very long time. Everybody on this road with a couple of acres can pull either crushed stone or slabs out of their property without much effort.
Since I am not building a shed, is it OK for me to get excited about your build?? ??? 8)
I am running into some shallow post holes due to mean rocks so decided I better start putting some framing up to hold everything in place. I checked and found several nice pine 2X12's 12' long that will work for my top plates but I either had to cut a 14' 2X6 to 12' or saw another to frame the short end and I'll need those longer boards for rafters and such later so I went and cut a stock ash log and got 6 2X6X12's and a couple of 2X4's out of it. Of course my busy body neighbor stopped by but he bought $50 worth of lumber and such so it was okay.
I started at the low corner and put up 2X12X12 as a top plate on the back run. My FEl would not reach that high so I put it as close as I could the used a 14' extension ladder to hold one end up nearly level then I drilled the plate and the upright with a 1/4" spade bit - I really need to find my 1/4" auger as it cuts a lot faster - then I nailed a couple of 6" (40d) nails/spikes into the upright then moved to the other upright and nailed it the same. Next I nailed the fresh cut 2X6 across the end using the same process so now I had one corner secured.
I measured and dug the next hole which yielded some respectable rocks but finally got about 18" before I hit a boulder. I lifted the pole with the FEL and was able to tamp enough dirt and rocks around it to hold it upright overnight, I hope. Turns out it is about 15' between the front and back so looks like I'm going to have to add another pole and an intermediate pole because of the distance. The more I work on this the more I feel like Sheriff Little Bill (Gene Hackman) in The Unforgiven. I should have filmed this and added this build to one of the TV self help/DIY series but I don't know if the comedy channel would accept it. ::)
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Nearly ran out of light before I got this picture. You can barely see the 2X6 tying the end together. All the poles on the front are in place and the one left of the stepladder I installed today and it is next in line for a top plate. I'll nail a short 2X4 to the corner post 2-3 ft above the 2X6 to determine to roof slope. I'll lift the next 2X12, tie or chain the corner, raise, level and nail to the new post. I could not locate my string level and may have to invest another $1.38 for another pair tomorrow if I do't find it then.
I have about decided to stair step the roof otherwise the height on the left side will only be about 6-7 ft high. The right side shown will be just under 10'.
If the picture looks a little skewed remember the back is not square with the front.
I had a few minutes this morning so I went out and put up another 12' 2X12 as a top plate for the front. I set it 30" higher than the back. I nailed a short 2X4 on the corner pole as a shelf, lifted the 2X12 up and set it on it and chained it in place. I went to nail the other end and almost pushed the shallow rooted pole over I installed last night so I had to straighten and nail a temporary brace to it. My FEL would not lift high enough so I ended up standing in it's bucket to work while I drilled and nailed the end to the pole. Then I moved to the corner and nailed it. I went to move my chain and found it had tightened when I lifted the 2X12 so I had to pull the cotter key from the hook bolt, take the hook off then reassemble it. I need to cut some more framing to brace the 15'6" span between the first line poles from front to back.
Most times an extra set of hands does not double the output. Rough framing is not one of those times.
At times like these another set of hands would likely triple or better the output and make things a whole lot easier and safer. Just climbing back up and down a ladder or tractor to get a tool you dropped or hold a pole upright where the hole is not deep enough to hold it up, etc. is labor intensive and time consuming. I have never tried to build on footers where every post/upright would have to be held in place until it was framed or temporarily braced in place. I like the idea of a barn building where the old timers got together and built a house or barn for a neighbor in a day. Of course that would mean I would have to have all the materials on hand and ready to use instead of running over to the sawmill, measuring/bucking a log to length and cutting the next set of framing or rafters or jumping on the ATV and running up in the woods and cutting another locust tree to get another pole. :D
I really did love the scene in Witness where the Amish team got together and built a barn for the couple. My favorite scene was about sunset where they had all the timber framing up and people were standing and hammering while standing on the timbers.
My fat,now blue thanks to a mis-directed hammer strike, finger just ate my post. I hate it when that happens.
I used my new 21' 2X6 as a temporary brace between the corner and 2 posts down on the back which allowed me to put in the final post on that back side even though the hole was only 12-14 inches deep and not deep enough to hold the post up. The temporary brace held it up till I could get a 12' 2X12 top plate nailed in holding the new post upright in place and stabilizing the corner which is also in a shallow hole.
I changed my design, again, and decided to keep the roof one level instead of stair-stepping it. I now have top plates on both back corners and just need to cut a 10' 2X12 to go in the middle to tie the whole back together. The short end is tied together and I have the top plate on the front lower corner. I have my last stock 12' 2X12 which I thought was pine but turns out is ash (Did you know a 12' ash 2X12 even after air drying for a year is still heavy. So is that green 21' fresh cut as 2X6 I'm using as temporary bracing) leaning against the front and will install it next. After that I will install the last perimeter pole in the upper/wide end. It is 22' so even my new 21' bracing is not enough but while typing this I realized I can stretch a cable there as temporary bracing to hold the pole upright in a shallow hole till I can nail some permanent 2X6 bracing between them. Every piece added ties it together more makes it stronger.
My back, upper corner will still be at least 7' high and the low side and I may even be able to dig some of that out with the FEL bucket before I put the internal uprights in place. The two remaining internal uprights will (Should?) be easy since I can us the 21' 2X6 to hold them centered and in place between the corresponding outside uprights. I'll pop a string to line up the centers. Should be fun. We will see.
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The 12' 2X12 leaning on the front is next to install then the end then I need to saw a couple more 10' 2X12's for the middle front and back top plates to tie the whole perimeter together, then two internal uprights on the wide/upper end, then rafters, strips and metal roofing. Then to decide if or how much siding to put on. There is 30" drop/slope between the front and back sides.
I build alone. Not by choice. Try putting trim boards up alone on the eves of a roof. ::) I just about do what you do. I go in the woods and cut down a tree, bring the log to the mill and saw it up. ;D I put whatever lumber I want onto the loader arms, the rest gets stickered and put aside. Than I bring the tractor over to the build site and start to pound nails. Loader arms get emptied, back to the woods I go. ;D
When I did my building I didn't even have a FEL. I survived by using "main force and awkwardness". ::)
I built my first pole barn without a tractor or FEL too. I used my ATV and would attach a snatch block to a tree behind the shed and pull or winch the pole upright. Fortunately in that spot I was about to get some 30"+ holes dug that would keep the pole in the air. Once you get the first pole up then you can start using it to help support its siblings. I should correct that slightly. My son came down with his tractor and FEL and helped me lift the first 2 - 20.5' 2X12 top plates. All of the poles and everything else was backbreaking labor and jury rigging.
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Here is that shed before I later added internal shelving. 62' long X 14' deep and 12' tall at the front.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1720.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1582212501)
My pore old blue finger this morning. Ouch - do I qualify for a purple heart? (We used to irreverently refer to them as slow ribbons because the faster Marines avoided getting one ::).) I was nailing up a short 2X4 to an upright as a shelf to hold the top plate till I could secure it with a couple of 40d nails/spikes on each end.
I lost my newly purchased string level and went out where I had split firewood and then to the shed site and finally found where I had dropped it. Then checked my mis-functioning chainsaw and found it was just a bad bar. I may be able to just replace the tip but I swapped the 24 with a 20 inch bar and tested it and it works fine. We have a retired teachers luncheon and I'll get back to the build this afternoon I hope.
That looks painful. I really hate getting one of those. Slows me down and makes me more irritable than usual. You better get a hot needle or small drill bit and put a hole in your nail somewhere to relieve the pressure in that finger. Otherwise, you might not be able to concentrate on anything else.
as long as there is a puddle of blood under the nail, then a hot needle will not hurt. if a thin layer it will hurt the same as any other finger getting stabbed with a hot needle. you can also not use heat and drill it with a bit, or a medical needle. be sure and stop when you see a spurt of blood. If the finger is swollen and B&B, and the nail is not lifted, their is no benefit to poking a hole, just adding insult to injury! looks like more the finger than the nail. push down on that nail with another finger and see if it floats up and down. if so, then the hole in the nail can prevent the loss of the nail, and give some immediate relief.
Looks like a little pool of blood under the lower right part of the nail that can be tapped into.
I heated a pin last night till red hot and poked a hole or two in the nail and it drained a little. I probably should have used a paper clip or something a little bigger. I suspect the nail will shed before long though.
That looks painful! I hope you get some relief and it heals quickly!
Ted,
It feels a lot better now than it did last night. We had some snow flurries after lunch so I did not get much done but just before dark I went out and nailed up a couple more temporary braces and popped a string on the front and nailed up a couple of short 2X4s as shelves to hold that next top plate in. I was tempted to try to at least lift and tack it in place with a couple of 16d nails but decided I better wait till I had more light before I hurt myself or messed something up. When I hammered my shelves up my old sore left finger was far from the nails!
I got a new 7-1/4 circular saw blade and some more spikes today so I should be set for enough fasteners for the framing.
EDIT: Oh yeah -Somebody told me you can reverse the blade on a circular saw and use the back of the blade to cut metal roofing I had to square up and when I broke my last cut off wheel on my 4.5" grinder I tried it and guess what? It works. Guess what else? It knocks the set off the blade and kills it so when I put it back it would not cut so I had to buy a new one. ::) It was an old blade and I was willing to experiment with it.
I got my 12' 2X12 shown earlier nailed up as a top plate. My 1/4" auger sheared off in the locust upright. I tried some 8" lag screws I had on hand but even after drilling with a 3/8" auger they they sheared off when I tried installing them with my electric impact wrench. Oh well, it was worth checking out. If I had grade 5 or grade 8 lag screws they would likely work but not the softer metal of these. I had to go back to using my 1/4" spade bits and nailing 6" (60d?) spikes and they are a chore to use but work.
I measured and dug another shallow hole in the middle of my shed across from the 2nd poles from the short end and even removed a very round rock about the size of a basketball. After I sawed some more 2X6's I popped a string, built 2 small shelves nailed one of them up. Then I set the pole I also squared today using the new 2X6 framing to hold it upright and leveled it in the new shallow rock filled hole. This actually frames the first/lower bay and I can start installing rafters. It is 12' across between the top plates on that lower end so I'll start with about a 15' rafter then every one going uphill, as the shed gets wider, will get progressively longer. I have a 21' 2X10 I can use as an interim top plate at the upper end that is a perfect fit but I really wanted to to extend it another 4-5 ft or so so the span between rafter support won't be so long. I think I will go ahead and use my 21' - 2X10 and scab on to it for additional support. In fact I think I will extend it past new pole I put in today then scab on at the upper end. (I find I do a lot of my planning here while typing up my daily progress reports).
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View at the end of the day today from the upper front corner.
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View from upper back corner at end of the day today. It looks like that corner post has canted back a little but I'll make sure it is plumb before I put up the next piece of framing.
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View from the front at the end of the day today. I need to saw 2- more center 2X12 top plates about 10' long for the front and back and install 2 more poles - one interior and one more in the middle of upper end. I have enough framing for the interior top plates so I can use some shorter interim rafters. I probably have enough rafter for 60%-70% of the roof and it won't take long to saw the rest. It looks like I need to cut one more good locust pole for that upper internal support. That cross brace between the 2 poles from the upper end is already there. I just need to pop a string and raise it and cut off a couple feet to the proper length.
Looks good!!!!
I hope to be building "garage". A place to be organized, shelves and a place to hung all of my shovels and rakes. It will only have a wood floor, but that will be fine.
Right now I only have $200 invested in used roofing metal and a few, maybe $20-25 dollars for nails and a replacement 7-1/4" circular saw blade. The locust uprights and framing lumber came off my place and I sawed it.
One mistake I see already is I set too short a pole in the lower back corner which determines the overall height of the shed. If that pole had been 2' taller I'd have had that much more height throughout. I am too far along now to be inclined to replace that and redo what I have already done. Right now I will have approximately 493 square ft of interior storage that ranges from 7-10 ft high at the back and sloping from about 9.5-12.5 ft high on the front.
You are making some great progress. I imagine driving those spikes in locust can be a challenge. It is looking good and is coming together!
I think the Egyptians built pyramids quicker than I am getting this shed built but every day gets a little closer. I decided I needed a couple more and larger poles to finish the project so I scouted out, cut and bucked a decent locust log to 14' long. I put it on the mill, squared it and split it into 2-4.5"X8"X14' poles which will work nicely. Before cutting the pole I dug my last hole and tried to make it deep but just could not get around the large rock at the spot. Since I was done with the auger I disconnected and stored it and put the blade back on the back of my tractor. I have a hook and ball hitch for pulling on the blade and it adds stability going up our steep hills. I wrapped a cable around the longer/upper end poles to the shed to use to brace against and to pull them back plumb. I move the pole into place and set it in place. This was one of those times when another set of hands would have been a huge force multiplier as I was constantly having to get on and off the tractor, move it 6" lift, get off, move the pole repeat, etc. I finally got it close enough to cut to length and nail an 11' X 2X6 to the corner pole to stabilize the pole in a plumb position then repeated to the opposite corner pole. This stabilized and held the pole in place. I was then able to remove the cable and tamp the dirt in the hole.
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Last exterior pole and bracing to keep it in place. One more internal to go. Note the little 2X4's used as shelves. They make a huge difference in holding the weight up so I can nail it in place. The last pole is cut and ready to install to morrow. Hoorah!
By the time I cut off the excess length on all these poles I will have a weeks worth of firewood from them.
Looks good. Yes,I have used little 2x4's too. ;D
On thing I was thinking about while digging my last post hole was how to get the bigger rocks out of the hole. I saw on a Gold Miner's White Water episode one time where the old timer, Fred, drilled a rock with what looked like a battery powered drill and installed an eye bolt and lifted it out. I don't remember if he inserted a lead anchor or what. Have any of you ever done anything like that? I wonder how well an electric jack hammer would work on them and how much generator it would take to run one. Same with an air powered one. We rented one one time in my late teens but the air compressor came with it and seemed bigger than what most of us need and too big to haul around our slopes.
My next eye opener may be when I go to put in my intermediate top plate. I put in the back one then the front one 30" taller. I set both level but because my back run is angled and 2.5' longer than the front I suspect my middle top plate may not be level. If that is the case I will just have to pop a string and run the top of the top plate even with the bottom of the string. I will know if a day or two.
The first thing that came to my mind was tapcons but they don't make eyebolts. The next best thing is to get eye bolts with an expanding mandrel like red heads. I searched tapcon eyebolts and found plenty. For the hole any hammer drill should work, even a battery powered one. The big question is what kind of stone do you have? Quartz would be tough to drill. ;D
Best of luck, it's a neat idea.
The few times I have done that is with a chain. Put the bucket over the hole and hook the chain to the rock. Than I just walk beside the tractor and work the loader controls from the ground. Yes, can take 3-4 times before I can get the rocks turned enough to find a good corner. Not too many round rocks around here. Well on my land there is not. ;D
OGH,
We mostly have relatively soft sandstone around here that really should not be all that hard to drill. Of course Fred was tapping boulders in a white water stream in Alaska where they were trying to get down to bedrock to vacuum up the gold pockets that had accumulated there over the years. He would tap a boulder and hook it to a winch on a skyline then lift and slide it downstream out of the way and drop it. My rocks are under the dirt so I'd be better off with some kind of jack hammer to break them up the use typical post hole diggers to dig them out. Oh well, my last post hole for this project is dug so it is a moot point till next time anyway.
BTW - is your Blue stone up there granite or what? Dad had a monument business and most of what he sold was blue granite from Elberton in N. Ga. I catch most of my my catfish here in the Bluestone River and Bluestone Lake near where it joins and becomes part of the New River a mile or so above the COE Bluestone Dam 1/4 mile above where the Greenbriar River also joins them. I don't know who or why they named it that as I haven't seen any Blue stones. ???
cfarm,
My problem with these rocks is they are under the ground and not exposed and you can't get a chain around them. You never see the whole rock and don't know it it is 2" thick and the diameter of a pizza pan or a 4' diameter boulder.
WV, our Bluestone is just bluestone. It is not granite. Think of 'slate' and you will be very close, some call it shale when it breaks up small, sharp as a razor.. It fractures in sheets and it considered an art to be able to split out a 2" thick slab 4x6 feet out of a quarry. It's on my list of things to learn and try before I die. I have lots to practice with across the road.
Glad your holes are done, that is the worst part. Now I am off to the shop after more hours getting the new phone functional. ;D
3 foot rocks and up are common on The Farm.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10436/rock_in_blueberry_field2014.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1402014618)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10436/a_rock_in_bluberry_field_2014.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1402014540)
This is why one reason the gravel/wood floor is going in to that garage I want to build. I have 2 rocks, that I can not even wiggle. Too big for what I have to move.
Okay, a long and productive day. I removed a 21' 2X6 from the back where I put it for temporary bracing, cut it to 19' and nailed it from front to rear where I needed my last post set. Once up I set the last pole and nailed it in place to keep it upright and in place. Then I went and cut a 21' poplar log I had in stock up in the woodline. I cut 3- 21' 2X12's out of it and ran out of time before I finished edging the rest into 2X6's. I put one of the long 2X12's across the bracing. It will be used for my middle top plate. I cut one of the remaining 2X12's into two lengths to finish the front and back and nailed them up. I was thinking about dgdrls talking about Festus singing Duck, Duck, Do on Gunsmoke being stuck in his head. I had a Ray Steven's song stuck in my head take your tongue out of my mouth - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=take+your+tongue+out+of+my+mouth&&view=detail&mid=3CA9AC0BD6562CB6C7E43CA9AC0BD6562CB6C7E4&rvsmid=34706C2E157D508F767B34706C2E157D508F767B&FORM=VDRVRV) On the last hole on the last top plate I kicked the ladder out from under me and had to grab the pole and shinny down several feet getting skinned up inner arms but landing upright. My Ray Stevens song was replaced by Jeff FF policy on old guy members on ladders instead. ::)
Now all my framing is up except that one internal top plate going across 2.5 bays. I just need to start nailing up rafters then nailing strips. I will use a couple of the extra long (21') rafters to help show me the height for my internal top plate. I figure that will be more accurate and definitive than just popping a string. It had gotten nearly dark before I got a chance to take the below picture at the end of the day.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1736.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1582506395)
All tied together and a couple of rafters and the interim top plate placed across the upper framing.
Oh yeah - I have decided to name my shed "Ode to Little Bill" in memory of Gene Hackman's house he was building in The Unforgiven. :D
cfarm,
I have some that big on my rock bar just above this shed site. I don't know how big the ones underground may be. :(
There's actually 2 kinds of bluestone in the US. OGH's is a sandstone and you've seen a lot of the other WV, it is all along I-81 up and down the valley of Virginia, the biggest quarry of it is in the Shenandoah valley and that deposit is supposedly 10,000 feet thick. It is dolomitic limestone, limestone with magnesium in it. Supposedly the deeper you go the bluer it gets. When you hop on 77 outside Wytheville and head my way you cross out of that ancient seabed and into our granite and gneiss, hard precambrian rock, from there down to the piedmont, the Blue Ridge. Going north your way when you go through the East River Mt tunnel you cross out of that ancient seabed onto your Allegheny plateau, mostly sandstones and shales.
I use a large Hilti percussion drill, a BA hammer drill, to drill and chisel rock. I have up to a 1-3/8x 2' bit which, short of explosives, is what is used with expanding grout to bust rocks that can't be chiseled and beat apart. My 5kw generator runs it easily, I'm sure a smaller one would. Rental yards often have the Makita brute breaker, electric jackhammer, it doesn't have a drill function but has a much harder hammer mode than mine, it can run on a gennie as well, it probably does need the full 5kw. There was a truck sized rock behind my barn that the dozer couldn't budge. Over the years I lit fires on it and quenched them with water from the spring and slowly worried the rock away with that thermal shock, sledges and cussedness. There's a Volkswagen sized one that has slipped into the creek right at one of my big culverts, I need to beat it to death this summer :'(.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 23, 2020, 08:09:28 PMMy Ray Stevens song was replaced by Jeff FF policy on old guy members on ladders instead. ::)
DanG! I didn't know Jeff could sing, let alone carry THAT tune! :D :D
Glad you din't get badly hurt or fall. Some scratches and splinters are painful enough to remind you, and all of us.
The shed is beginning to take on some real shape now. Nice day's work! Wish I could claim the same.
You can see the excess pole height where I need to cut them off. Only the bottom lower pole is even with the top plates and does not need to be cut off. Some poles are 4' higher than the roof height. I should have cut them off before setting them to reduce the weight but I waffled on stair stepping the roof and would have used the extra height.
When I get the first few rafters up I will lay a couple of long pieces of roofing up there to use to square up the roof with (Will likely be the first thing on the build that turns out square :D.) and try to keep the lower end and front side square. If that works as planned the roofing goes up real fast. I need to sort through my pile and maximize the use and reduce the wasted parts as much as possible. I think I have 3 pieces of 8' and a couple of 3-4 ft pieces red roofing and 180 linear feet of gray roofing ranging from 11' to 18'. It is used and had been fitted and I squared it. I probably should not have trimmed it till after this build. I think I have plenty of screws for anchoring it down but can always get more if needed. If I run short on roofing I will either have to wait to find some more used or get off my wallet and buy new. The last I bought for my school bus stop was about $2/running ft for 3' wide metal. The good thing about that if I have to buy more is I can buy exact sizes to marry up with my used stuff. We will see.
Don,
I knew there was a big sand and gravel pit behind one of the truck stops there in Wytheville we stop at on our way to Charlotte which is likely the seabed you are talking about. If you are ever heading north and have the time stop at Exit 58 on I-77 there at Bastion about 8 miles before you hit the last tunnel there at the WV line (Last place before the gas prices rise from Va to WV) and go visit the Wolf Creek Indian Village - a palisaded Indian village they found, mapped and reconstructed when widening I-77 several years back. The county runs it and it is very interesting and educational.
OGH,
I don't know if Jeff can sing or not. I know Ray Stevens does. ;D I know Jeff has published warnings and FF policy members about old timers getting hurt on ladders.
Okay I need clarification on this old timers thing. Jeff and I are close in age. What is the definition of old timer? This is important as I may have an opportunity to climb a ladder today. If the FF warning includes me, I'll need to report that to the Fleet Command (Aka Admiral Emily)
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 23, 2020, 10:17:49 PMI know Jeff has published warnings and FF policy members about old timers getting hurt on ladders.
I must have missed the memo. :) I am fine until I hit about 15' and anything over that I tense a little. If I am on any step ladder and the top is below my thighs I get a little tense also. Just be careful.
I can tell you about an "Old Timer" falling from a ladder just 8' high it will leave you in a wheel chair for a year and 2 surgery's then cripple and pain for the rest if you life. Be careful
Quote from: thecfarm on February 23, 2020, 08:01:41 PM
3 foot rocks and up are common on The Farm.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10436/rock_in_blueberry_field2014.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1402014618)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10436/a_rock_in_bluberry_field_2014.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1402014540)
This is why one reason the gravel/wood floor is going in to that garage I want to build. I have 2 rocks, that I can not even wiggle. Too big for what I have to move.
If the rocks have three feet then you should be able to herd them to where you want.... :D :D :D
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on February 24, 2020, 06:57:47 AM
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 23, 2020, 10:17:49 PMI know Jeff has published warnings and FF policy members about old timers getting hurt on ladders.
I must have missed the memo. :) I am fine until I hit about 15' and anything over that I tense a little. If I am on any step ladder and the top is below my thighs I get a little tense also. Just be careful.
OGH - I am fine at 15'. Its when I hit the ground that I have problems. :D
OK Cowboy EOTE, why don't you show us how its done. When you get all these boulders in the corral I have some cats and chipmunks you can start on too. :D :D :D
On ladder policy - Read reply 1&2 here. There are more I could not immediately locate.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=89343.msg1374882#msg1374882 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=89343.msg1374882#msg1374882)
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 24, 2020, 09:11:52 AM
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on February 24, 2020, 06:57:47 AM
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 23, 2020, 10:17:49 PMI know Jeff has published warnings and FF policy members about old timers getting hurt on ladders.
I must have missed the memo. :) I am fine until I hit about 15' and anything over that I tense a little. If I am on any step ladder and the top is below my thighs I get a little tense also. Just be careful.
OGH - I am fine at 15'. Its when I hit the ground that I have problems. :D
OK Cowboy EOTE, why don't you show us how its done. When you get all these boulders in the corral I have some cats and chipmunks you can start on too. :D :D :D
On ladder policy - Read reply 1&2 here. There are more I could not immediately locate.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=89343.msg1374882#msg1374882 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=89343.msg1374882#msg1374882)
WV Sawmiller, if you look real close, I am the guy bringing up the rear of this cat herd. :D :D :D Rocks are pretty docile compared to cats. ;D
Herding Cats (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTwJzTsb2QQ)
WV Sawmiller - This is the rock I moved (well the road crew moved it) out of my front yard in the mid 1980's. I had put a few 4" x 4" fence posts in this rock a few years before the county decided to upgrade the road and purchased (legal thievery) a strip (850 ft long) along the front of my property. I used a pointed harden bar to chip out the rock for the post holes. They blasted this a couple of times. They make my wife and young daughter leave our house before they set the blasts off. Then they used two of these dozers (D9 cats I believe) to move it about 40 yards down the road and push it over into a gully across the road from my current house.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/50090/The_Rock_-_before_they_moved_it_from_outside_kitchen_window.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582583866)
Rich,
We have them around here that big but I did not know you had them in Ala that big. My BIL lives there in Birmingham and I can't say I've seen any around his place like that. I know the kind of pointed bar you describe but mine is what we call a spud bar and has a wider wedge shaped tip that works fine to cut roots but the point is better for breaking and chipping rocks.
All,
I did not really work on my shed any more today. I finished edging my 21' log I cut yesterday and ended up with 5 more 2X6's and one long 2X4. I pulled them off the mill onto my FEL and took them to the shed and lifted them as high as I could then slid them off on top of the roof to be used as rafters. I have one extra 2X12X21 and if I don't use it I'll rip it for 2 more rafters.
I was sore when I got up from my ladder fall and grabbing the pole and shinnying down but I stretched the joint at my L shoulder as well as skinning up my arms. I have several other scrapes, a couple of knots on my head from repeatedly walking into low temporary framing and I am still nursing my blue finger. What is it they say - getting old ain't for sissies.
Weather is threatening to slow me down over the next few days but I'll do what I can, when I can. Besides, I still need to saw 218 more bf to get my 100K mark. One decent log will do that.
Quote from: brianJ on February 14, 2020, 07:34:10 PM
There are three immutable laws of sheds that are as immutable as Murphy's law.
First you have already discovered Law one is Sheds are never big enough.
Second law is go much longer because length is cheap sq footage as the end walls and and overhead doors are the expensive parts.
Third iaw is to go real high like 14 foot or more at the eaves because when you run into the space issue from law one you can put a lean to off the side for more cheap square footage
These "3 Laws of Shed Size" are pure genius. Experience distilled down into three rules.
EOTE,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10436/001~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1508150451)
you mean like this. :D :D :D
Quote from: thecfarm on February 24, 2020, 09:34:34 PM
EOTE,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10436/001~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1508150451)
you mean like this. :D :D :D
Alright! We have a rock herder, cat herder and now all we need for WV Sawmiller is a chipmunk herder!
I love it! 8)
While we were talking about bluestone the other day, Michelle brought a cool rock home that I've been hunting down, finally think I found it today. One of the greenstones, epidosite. It was formed underwater by volcanic vents sending hot sulfurous water through fissures in the parent igneous rock that underlies the Blue Ridge displacing much of the minerals with epidote.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/epidosite.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582599607)
This is the blue dolomite from up along 81 in the Valley and Ridge. It had just started to sprinkle when I took the pic so that is the mottling, this is metamorphosed sedimentary stuff and cleaves well, these were from an old basement. A friend knew Michelle liked them and so when I was gone one day 5 truckloads of it appeared :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/dolomite.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582599880)
The capstone here is PA bluestone, I think the same as OGH's stuff
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/timberframing_009.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1480639139)
The bluestone steps are on my trailer in the background. The rest of the rock is the native sandstone that was on the site and in field piles. That is just over the mountain towards Wytheville, I could hear the works at Sand Mt you spoke of earlier from there. This sandstone was laying on the surface, we didn't hit any in the basement dig. I'm pretty sure it was a capstone that descended on the surface as the softer stuff underneath eroded. We collected about 200 tons for this job, and I broke a leg in a particularly sweet honey hole of rock in one draw, very tough footing in places. I've been to Wolf Creek, it was just getting going back then, I need to go back again.
I spent yesterday on a ladder installing hurricane ties, sure glad I used red oak for the rafters :D. My calves and feet are about shot, glad that's over with for a day or 2 of rain. Made white pine T&G in the shop for the soffits today.
Never underestimate brute force and ignorance :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/rockcrusher.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1221192709)
Quote from: Don P on February 24, 2020, 10:20:02 PM
While we were talking about bluestone the other day, Michelle brought a cool rock home that I've been hunting down, finally think I found it today. One of the greenstones, epidosite. It was formed underwater by volcanic vents sending hot sulfurous water through fissures in the parent igneous rock that underlies the Blue Ridge displacing much of the minerals with epidote.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/epidosite.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582599607)
This is the blue dolomite from up along 81 in the Valley and Ridge. It had just started to sprinkle when I took the pic so that is the mottling, this is metamorphosed sedimentary stuff and cleaves well, these were from an old basement. A friend knew Michelle liked them and so when I was gone one day 5 truckloads of it appeared :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/dolomite.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582599880)
The capstone here is PA bluestone, I think the same as OGH's stuff
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/timberframing_009.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1480639139)
The bluestone steps are on my trailer in the background. The rest of the rock is the native sandstone that was on the site and in field piles. That is just over the mountain towards Wytheville, I could hear the works at Sand Mt you spoke of earlier from there. This sandstone was laying on the surface, we didn't hit any in the basement dig. I'm pretty sure it was a capstone that descended on the surface as the softer stuff underneath eroded. We collected about 200 tons for this job, and I broke a leg in a particularly sweet honey hole of rock in one draw, very tough footing in places. I've been to Wolf Creek, it was just getting going back then, I need to go back again.
I spent yesterday on a ladder installing hurricane ties, sure glad I used red oak for the rafters :D. My calves and feet are about shot, glad that's over with for a day or 2 of rain. Made white pine T&G in the shop for the soffits today.
Never underestimate brute force and ignorance :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/rockcrusher.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1221192709)
Both the PA bluestone and the blue dolomite look the same as ours. What is the difference? that capstone stuff is used all around here, there are several yards that cut it to order. I'll grab some picks next time I head into the woods.
I think some of the other guys have a better grasp of geology but my understanding is both are metamorphosed ocean stuff. Our dolomite is limestone, so the shells of ancient sea creatures. Here they were very tiny, early evolution, so I've never seen a fossil. Over in KY I've seen similar stone full of shell fossils, I think I've still got a chunk down at the mill. That would be in WV's time period where life was booming, the third hit of Africa. The dolomite was from the second mountain building event so early life. Your stone is the same period as mine I believe, the first Appalachian building collision, pre Cambrian, no life, yours is a sandstone, the beach. Side by side your bluestone is much deeper colored and harder. I think the current marketing name from one quarry for the dolomite is "Stonewall Grey". Wandering through history, Stonewall Jackson had a cousin who was a bit less brave, his nickname was "Mudwall", rather than standing like a stone wall, he melted like a mud wall.
My basement rock is plutonic magma, Pluto, god of the underworld, so magma domes that swelled but didn't blow its top. To go off the Blue Ridge down to Ted's neighborhood, Pilot Mt from my understanding was an earlier volcanic island ring out in that pre Atlantic sea.
I grabbed a chunk of rock this morning, our same basement rock as in the sledgehammer pic, cranberry gneiss, and set it beside the chunk of epidosite. You can see the similarity I hope. The pink feldspar is the last thing to be epidoted in the fury of the vent so some is still visible in the green rock. When there is more pink still present it is called unikite and has moderate gem value.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/cranepido~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1582634935)
Here's some pics and description of the unikite;
https://geology.com/gemstones/unakite/ (https://geology.com/gemstones/unakite/)
Sorry for the side track WV, never accuse me of staying on topic :D
Don & OGH,
I wish you guys had told me you are so keen to dig for rocks. I'd have been glad to show you 11 specific spots where I wanted you to look and for depths up to about 30" and 12-15 inches around. You are too late now. :D
That green rock is real neat though. A lot prettier than any I encountered.
Pretty colored rocks have caused a lot of trouble in human history.
Okay, off the geology and unless anyone finds an edible rock I'll move on with my shed build. I forgot to take my camera so no picture today. It was a miserable drizzly wet morning so I did not think I'd get anything done but when I went out to feed my horse and mule it began to clear up a little. I started moving a couple of the rafters into place on the narrow end then nailed one end of three of them on the high/front side and brought over a 17' & an 18' piece of roofing and laid it down to square up the corner then nailed the other end into place. Working alone that meant climbing up and down a couple of ladders many times and making minor adjustments till I felt I had the first one square to my build and screwed the low end down. I figured if I tried nailing/toenailing it in I'd knock it out of place so I drilled it in. After that things went faster as now all I have to do was put a 14" spacer block between the rafters and nailing 16d nails in from both sides. After that and as part of that I cut off the excess pole length on the perimeter poles only having one fall back on my head and sawing into one of my spikes pretty much killing the chain on my wife's little Sthil 180 EZ start saw and dumping 2 tanks of bar oil when the cap vibrated off.
I have a visit to the tooth fairy tomorrow to get fitted for a crown on a new implant so will go get a new 24" bar or tip if they can just replace it, a new small chain for the 180, some more bar oil, etc so I won't get to build any more tomorrow.
You are making me feel like a lazy slouch. ;D
Sounds like you could use a helmet and some hammer-proof gloves. Wish I was around to give you a hand. Good luck with the tooth fairy.
OGH - getting 3 rafters installed in 3-4 hours ain't settin' no speed records so don't worry about your progress compared to mine. ::)
Jeep - I am sorry to say I have a good hard hat. It was sitting safely in my tack room where my saws and saddles and such are hanging instead of on my gourd where it needed to be. :( I don't know about those hammer proof gloves. What do they look like? Does HF carry them? ;)
WV,
I also sometimes neglect to wear a helmet when I should. And ear pro. And eye pro. I was kidding about the gloves, but there are actually some out there. I would not call them hammer "proof", but better than nothing I suppose:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Large-Anti-Impact-Hammer-Glove-Padded-Left-Hand-DP470041/304029706 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Large-Anti-Impact-Hammer-Glove-Padded-Left-Hand-DP470041/304029706)
These are pretty cool, but I could not find a US distributor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrRhcxfJ5Zs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrRhcxfJ5Zs)
https://resafe.cl/en/ (https://resafe.cl/en/)
This one has promise, and you can order them online:
https://www.d3o.com/our-products/industrial-workwear/ (https://www.d3o.com/our-products/industrial-workwear/)
The D3O products have a lot of potential. If they were able to construct a glove with reactive thermoplastic covering the thumb and pointer finger, that would be the ticket.
Jeep,
Pretty neat concept on the gloves. I am afraid the Safety guys in the industry will see them and mandate their use causing even more expense and slow the work down even more. My injury was strictly preventable by just moving my left hand out of the way once I got the nail started. At least until the pain has been gone a very long time it is not something I will be repeating.
Same with the hard hat since the cutoff falling back on me was a very reasonable possibility and could have been prevented by wearing my hard hat or just re-positioning my ladder and cutting from a different angle. Sometimes you just can't fix stupid and some of us need more reminding than others and no need to start changing the rules and requirements for others.
It reminds me of a guy in Bagram Afghaniland who stuck his hand in the back side of an open door and got a it crushed when the wind or someone closed the door. I remember his section designated him as the department safety rep in retaliation to getting skylined for having an reportable injury. Turns out he took the assignment seriously and did a commendable job for them. I used to make all my team members/employees give a safety lecture any time they had an injury or near miss. It worked well as I found the team would listen to a co-worker guy wearing a pull start hat tell them why he should have warn his hard hat than anything I could say.
People are always more concerned about safety after an incident. Accidents happen once complacency creeps back in.
I am a big "that which does not kill us makes us stronger" guy, and I think gloves are nice, so you do not have to look for the finger tip all over the shop before coming to the ER. 8) :D we almost never sew them back on anyway. thumb is diff. story.
Doc,
I am pretty good about using my work gloves but typically take them off to start a nail and in this case I just rested my hand too close and missed a stroke. The fancy hammer proof, saw proof, nuclear blast proof at 200 yards gloves would have been the same as I suspect I would have taken them off to hold the nail to start and had the same results. Safety equipment that gets too unwieldy and complicated to use won't help because it doesn't get used. This was just clearly cerebral flatulence at work. I am pretty good about using hearing protection any time I run my mill or a chainsaw or am shooting or such. I wish I had done so when I was much younger. ::)
I wear the mechanix MPACT gloves, as they are thin and can do most manly things with them on. my dad wore leather gloves and took them off and put them on with out even thinking about it. like glasses on your forehead and you cannot find them. It has taken several years, but my 18 y/o son will now wear gloves. before, he would always say "it will be fine, or I'm good" then get a splinter or a pinch. he is trainable! :)
Glad you've not been hurt worse WV! Be careful out there!
Quote from: doc henderson on February 26, 2020, 03:46:54 PM
I wear the mechanix MPACT gloves, as they are thin and can do most manly things with them on. my dad wore leather gloves and took them off and put them on with out even thinking about it. like glasses on your forehead and you cannot find them. It has taken several years, but my 18 y/o son will now wear gloves. before, he would always say "it will be fine, or I'm good" then get a splinter or a pinch. he is trainable! :)
Like Doc I wear the thin gloves and am pretty good about using them. I don't get the name brands, I think they are overpriced for what you get from them. I have blown out a finger a just a few hours on most of them. Home Despot usually get a big barrel of them every fall and they are 3 pairs for just under 20 bucks. Those plus the usable ones from the previous year get rotated through as they get wet during the day. I can do just about everything with them except pop the top on a beer, which is probably an evil safety feature. Of course if the weather dictates, I use heavier gloves. The only ones that really seem to hold up for a long time are the surplus extrication gloves I have from the fire dept. but even they get worn pretty good handling sawn lumber, they just don't blow out and are very cut resistant. They also cost about 80 bucks a pair.
you may be forced to switch to bottles. the gloves help with twist off and a bottle opener is still doable. after the hard work is done, of course! 8) :D smiley_beertoast
The hitting yourself with a hammer brought back a memory from a bit over 50 years. My brother, 70 now a teenager then, and I were building a tree stand in a triple tree about 8-10 inch and he was hugging the tree and reaching around and somehow hit himself in the nose with the hammer, I can't even type this without laughing. I think I need to call him now and remind him.
Quote from: gspren on February 27, 2020, 01:13:22 PM
The hitting yourself with a hammer brought back a memory from a bit over 50 years. My brother, 70 now a teenager then, and I were building a tree stand in a triple tree about 8-10 inch and he was hugging the tree and reaching around and somehow hit himself in the nose with the hammer, I can't even type this without laughing. I think I need to call him now and remind him.
Oh my that is good! I have tears in my eyes reading it because I can see how easy it would be to do.
A friend of mine once knocked himself out cold laying under his truck trying to break a 1-1/2 nut loose. He finally got in a position where he was on his back, pulling equally with both arms on the box wrench. When it broke loose, the wrench hit him square in the top of his head and knocked him cold. Fast forward 30 seconds, I come walking up his driveway and see his feet sticking out from under the truck, when he doesn't respond to my questions, I kicked his foot to get his attention. About the time I realized he was out cold, began to wake up, then he tried to sit up... while he was still under the truck.
He was not having a good day. Still brings tears to my eyes. ;D :D
slip sliding away - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=slip+sliding+away&view=detail&mid=AD07DACD00B6CB7C7297AD07DACD00B6CB7C7297&FORM=VIRE0&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dslip%2bsliding%2baway%26form%3dEDGHPT%26qs%3dLS%26cvid%3d5a0017fef3494c8f97daab2dd9e7ddf7%26cc%3dUS%26setlang%3den-US%26plvar%3d0)
New song to work to. Dang that ladder. Dang that mud. By the time I finish this shed I may not be any taller but I should have longer arms.
We got up with about an inch of snow that fell last night. It all melted off the east and south facing slopes by about noon. I went out and got my hard hat and chainsaw and cut off some more poles enough to lift framing over them as needed. I placed a couple of 21' rafters as far they'd reach across the top plates then lifted the intermediate top plate across the wide end till it touched the bottom of the rafters. I only had to lift the top plate about 3" and put some spacers there to keep the 21'X2"X12" top plate in place then drilled and spiked them into the uprights. I'll probably have to scab about 2' on the wide end and 4-5 ft on the short end to provide extra support on the long rafters used there. Then I sawed the poles off even with the top plates.
I resumed work on the narrow end, used up the rafters I had cut then ripped a poplar 2X12X21 to get 2 more and cut a third one out of an ash 2X10X21. I nailed them up although I almost quit for the day when my ladder and I parted ways but I got back up and decided to finish so now have all the rafters on the first bay up. From here on out the rafters will meet at the center top plate and will be from 12-14 ft long. I'll have the wife pick up some more 16d nails in the morning when she goes to town for her hip therapy.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1745.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1582851059)
Weather and body aches permitting I may even start putting strips/nailers across the rafters already up tomorrow and start screwing the roofing on to place.
OK, now it's taking shape in my head. I get it now. You really should consider putting a leash on that ladder to flip around the beam and hold it in place, or screw some springs on the bottoms of your boots.
Yeah, it's beginning to look more like a shed now. You can see a handful of 12' rafters to the left edge of the picture and in the corner of one of the piles on the right I have 8-10 14' rafters already cut. There are a couple under the back side of the shed by the fence that have punk on one end and needs trimming. I am pretty sure I will need to cut a few more but I have some stock ash logs I need to use. I have a very big 12' ash log on the other side of the creek the tree people cut last year but it is too big for me to pull out so I may have to rip it with a chainsaw and drag each half up and saw them. There is enough wood there to get all the 12' rafters I need. I only need 218 bf to hit my 100K mark. We will see if my right ankle and knee agree to my plans in the morning.
Reading the notes above about people hitting themselves with hammers and wrenches reminds me I got too close when I was toenailing the rafters to the top plates and was working close and ripped my shirt pocket off with the claw on my hammer on a backstroke. ::) Oh well, it was an old beat up work shirt and my wife will patch it. I also broke the string on my nail apron and will see about getting another to morrow when she gets nails. If not I'll patch that one. They only cost about $1 each the last time I bought a couple.
Every meal is a feast. Every day is a party and every project is an adventure. If I thought otherwise, the crazy stuff that happens would have me hiding under the covers trying to avoid Murphy.
Ted,
Don't forget "Every day is a holiday" too.
My wife got me some more nails this morning and is going to fix my nail pouch or make me a new one since she forgot to get another one while she was as the hardware store. We are getting periodic snow swirls but looks manageable to work in a little bit. The next few days look to be cold but relatively clear with rain starting next week.
My right ankle is complaining some but considering I stretched out full length as long as I could yesterday and being too far from an upright to shinny down I finally dropped about 6' I am lucky its not broken. Fat old men don't bounce as good as we did when younger. I remember climbing a big old magnolia tree looking for flying squirrels when I was a teen. I was up a good 35-40 ft and stepped on a dead limb that broke and fell out from under me and I was up there hanging by one arm watching a 50 lb limb falling straight down on my buddy thinking "He's gonna die!" then at the last minute he stepped back and it missed him by nearly a foot. I swung over to a secure limb and climbed on up to check the empty squirrel nest then climbed on down to go look for the next one.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1746.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1582935590)
I looked through my assorted stock and pulled the 1X4s I saw on top. They ranged from a few 5-6 ft ash to some 12' poplar ones and I cut the ends off a miscut 21' ash 1X0. Cut it to 13'6" and ripped it into 2 1X5's to use as nailing strips. I used an 8' piece of roofing to square the strips and started nailing them on 2' centers. I need to dig out my knee pads and my old knees are getting sore crawling around up there. I got the nailers installed in about half of the first bay where I had the rafters up. It sure is a lot more comfortable than nailing up framing or rafters and a lot safer. I finally quit near the end of the day after I dropped my tape measure about the 3rd or 4th time and got tired of crawling between the 14"X 20" cubes/openings to retrieve it. I'll likely start by cutting some 11' rafters tomorrow from my stock logs rather than using some longer ones I have in stock.
I got interrupted by my neighbor stopping by a couple times but he did pull out a 4' LE cherry slab on his first trip and he bought 4 cherry pre-cut tenon legs I made for my benches. He wants me to drill and install and cut them to length on a special spalted maple slab about 30" long and 15" wide that he is working on. Weather permitting and if I have not killed myself by then we will finish it Wednesday or as close to that as possible. I'll see how that works. His enthusiasm is infectious so I enjoy working with him even though he just buys small amounts at a time. I love seeing someone enjoying himself with wood he got from me.
May be too late, but you might want to snap some chalk lines and leave the tape in your pocket. :)
I'll be snapping some chalk lines when I start putting screws in the metal roofing I suspect but it would not be a time saver here. I laid the first nailer/1X4 strip and use it as a base and measure 2' down, nail one end, move to the other end 6-12 ft away depending on the length of the next nailer, measure it 2' down and nail it in place. That keeps all the nailers perfectly parallel to the first one. To snap a line I'd still have to climb down every time twice to measure and snap from each end and if the line slipped I'd have to repeat and climb down 2 more times. I just need to remember to put my tape back in my pocket or nail pouch instead of laying it on the next nailer and kicking or vibrating it off by nailing. When I get the rest of the rafters up on the front I will be snapping a line to lay the next nailer to keep it all straight and maybe even square (If I laid the first one properly :D). I'll be snapping a line on the back side where the line is a diagonal.
Ha. Yeah, there's no simple way to be two people when you're working by yourself. I think wives are supposed to help hold the other end of the chalk line, aren't they? ;)
Nice progress. You'll be dried in soon.
Gravel floor?
good progress, should start to sturdy up!
Yep. As I have mentioned every piece I add makes it stronger. Just nailing the strips across the rafters helps stabilize them and sure makes it a lot safer to walk and work up there.
I sawed 6 more 10' rafters and a 10' 1X4 nailer and put the rafters up today. Went to saw some 11' rafters and found my log had sat too long so ended up with firewood instead. :( Did not remember to take my camera but now have rafters in half of the second bay. Basically the rafters are up for half the shed.
Yup. Your days work compared to mine keeps me in the slouch department again. Good on ya man, you are an animal!
OGH - hey I'm happy. I didn't get any new bumps and bruises and the only equipment issue was due for work anyway and if the worst I did in lost another set screw and jam nut I am doing well. I'm disappointed about the log but not surprised and I needed to fill the woodbox anyway. :D
I staged 3 frresh cut 14' rafters right off the mill on top for future use. I staged 16 fresh cut 1X4X9 nailers for future use. I nailed up a couple of 12' 2X6s and found I still have 1-21' rafter left which will be the next thing to go up. No speed records but its coming. One good thing is I am working in the middle and have plenty of rafters and framing to brace against and hold too so it is much safer working conditions.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1763.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1583110360)
Just over half the rafters up. See 3 new 14' rafter staged on top of the shed on left side of the pix.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1762.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1583110357)
See bundle of 1X4 nailers in the middle on top right side as facing the shed.
EDIT/Add-On
Quote from: btulloh on February 29, 2020, 09:02:34 AM
Ha. Yeah, there's no simple way to be two people when you're working by yourself. I think wives are supposed to help hold the other end of the chalk line, aren't they? ;)
Nice progress. You'll be dried in soon.
Gravel floor?
I missed replying to this earlier. Yes a wife or kid would be handy to hold the string or tape measure or pass my tape or hammer back up when I drop it. Dad used to hire some of the neighborhood kids to go with him when he was measuring for a chainlink fence or such. A kid could hold one end of a tape measure or go fetch a level or such just as well as an adult. Then when they got older and bigger they already understood a lot of the process. A lot of the neighborhood kids first paying jobs were working for him.
As to the gravel I have not planned that far ahead. I may make it sawdust - at least it won't hurt as bad when I fall again. :D I helped my BIL in Ala build a pole barn one time. He put the poles up then stacked hay under it and we nailed the framing and roofing up. It was handy to climb on and reassuring knowing if you fell you didn't have as far to go and a much softer landing.
WV, that neighborhood kid thing seems to have disappeared from the culture. No such thing around here as a kid looking to help or wanting to shovel snow to pick up a few bucks. And forget about the kid wanting to mow the lawn to pick up some pocket money.
When I was a kid, my favorite thing to do was helping my dad with a building project, or even better, helping a neighbor. I wasn't even looking to get paid. It was just fun. Usually when helping a neighbor they would give me a few dollars at the end just because they appreciated the help.
I never see a kid from the neighborhood looking to do any of that. Times have changed. And then some.
Yeah, when I was a kid my brothers and I helped my dad after school and on weekends with the family monument and chain link fence business he worked after his regular full time job at the local paper mill. My first job was when I was about 6 and I had to haul water to mix cement or wash up granite and such. All my life I hated that job and when I was older I'd readily pass the Gunga din duties on to any paid helper we might have. Dad would sometimes hire other off duty paper mill employees to help us kids. I could do the entire job but was not old enough to drive so Dad would hire me a driver to help.
A teen could buy a cheap push mower and make a lot more money mowing yards in a subdivision than working at McD or such but many won't do it. Unfortunately some cities and towns now cave in and squash that by making sure only licensed landscapers do the work taking that opportunity from kids. We had a friend in SC when I was stationed there who had several teams with a teen and an adult he'd send out with a 5X10 trailer, a riding mower, a push mower and a weedeater towed by and old station wagon or beat up truck. He had contracts with local real estate companies in an area with frequent turnover of houses because of the military bases and 8-9 months of grass growing season so they were making a mint. I'd much prefer working outside to flipping burgers or working at a 7/11.
I have several young men that come around to pick up some gas money or date money. Having been a teacher I used to hire kids that needed to make a little money. Now I hire their sons and daughters and a few of their grandkids! Aaaccckk!
If you are looking for a teenager to do some general labor and knows which end of a hammer to hold, check with your local high school agriculture teacher of carpentry teacher.
Ted,
I have one family down the road with a several teenagers. Their mom and our son and daughter were in school together and she was in my wife's HS band she directed. They are good kids and grew up working on the farm. I used to of the boys and had their older sister drive the truck last year in the hay field when I got my winter hay supply. She could drive the truck as well as a big man and the boys were plenty strong enough to get it done. My nephew was out a few years ago at hay time and my 500 lb younger brother drove while we loaded. He is about 30. Before we got the first load on my P/U and 5X8 trailer he stopped and got back in the truck. That was pitiful IMHO for a fat old 65 y/o man to be outworking a 30 year old. Of course his dad was in no shape to help so what should I expect. :(
Back to the shed - I think I got up a rafter or two yesterday before I got into log moving and bridge repair projects. Today I milled 9 more 12' ash rafters and some 1X4 nailers. I nailed up another 6-7 rafters before I got rained out and had to go pack up and quit for the day.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1773.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1583276553)
I may be able to use 1-2 more 12' rafters before the overhang requirements make me start using the longer ones. Little by little it is getting there. Weather permitting I will finish the rafters and nailers this week. The metal should/could go up real fast. Dry weather sure would be nice.
I think part of it is liability (thank a lawyer) and in my neck of the woods it was the issue of not being licensed (pay the county or city their fee). A young high school girl was cutting yards to raise money for a mission trip a couple of years ago and she got shut down after a landscaper turned her into the city. She wasn't really charging for the service, just asked for a donation. And the person that owned the yard had no problem with her cutting the grass.
When I was a young teenager I would get the family lawnmower and a gas can and roam the neighborhood and got more jobs then I could handle at times. But my dad was on the hook if the mower broke... I did help him fix it and learned how to sharpen and balance the blade.
My BIL there in Birmingham AL said the city has pretty much shut down the teenagers mowing yards in the area because they were not getting their cut and because of political pressure from the big landscape companies in the area.
cannot hardly raise a decent child anymore!! they need that experience! ;)
Kids need to learn.
I work in a hardware store. We hire 20 years old that have no idea how to hammer a nail. ::) I have no idea what they was doing when their Dad's was doing something. Maybe no Dad. Maybe Dad was not pounding nails?
cfarm,
I'm not saying anything. If you saw how many nails I have ruined just toenailng in my rafters you might add me to that category. :( This hard ash wood, soft zinc coated nails and off angled nailing is pretty ugly. (Is pretty ugly and Oxymoron like a giant shrimp or something?). One mis-strike and that nail is toast. Instead of trying to pull them out I just bend them back and forth a few times till metal fatigue breaks it right off.
I am thinking about taking my drill up there and pre-drilling the holes but that is awkward and no telling how many drill bits I would break in the process. We will see what kind of mood I am in tomorrow morning.
Well least you are pounding them in. ;D
The ones I have seen come and go and the ones I have, have no idea which end to use. :( I don't say nothing or ask any questions. I just try to help them pound nails. ;D They have no idea how big a ¼ inch bolt is or a ¾ inch one. And the list goes on. :( Just make me a thinks I am one pretty smart guy. :D :D
Time for a nail gun. Rent, borrow, or buy. Way less fatiguing than a hammer.
Howard, I had the same problem when I built my mill shed. I drill a bunch of holes, but then my son saw my dilemma and dropped off a gas powered nailer he had bought just because it was a great deal and used once. That worked pretty dang good but you have to be careful to keep your face out of the way in case it blows out a the side of a rafter. ;D Also, you don't want to be up un a ladder holding a rafter in place with the nailer next to your head. (well OK, go ahead and try it, but you will only do this once.) That thing drives 3.5 inch nails through dry ash pretty slick but will explode a knot. ;D
Man you are like a dog with a bone on this job, just cranking it out! Congrats on the huge milestone! 8)
X2 on the framing nailer. Makes a huge difference when working alone. Or with others. You can hold with one hand and nail with the other. Like having three hands. Only better.
I tried the drill this morning and got 2-3 more rafters nailed and broke every 5/64" drill bit in the pack in the process before a customer came and I ran out of time. I'd drill the pilot hole and hammer and the nail would still bend. I may try some different nails. I'm using 16d galvanized sinkers. I may try skipping the galvanize and see if I get a stronger sharper nail. I may step up the size of my drill bit and see if a slightly bigger pilot hole helps too.
that bit size sounds teeny for a 16 p nail. the pilot can be as big as the nail, then drive it into the plate. the bending is the hardwood vs softwood framing prob.
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) ,
Not sure what you mean about hardwood vs softwood issue. Often I am nailing through a fresh cut ash rafter into a hard ash top plate. Some of the top plates are pine. I could understand if I were nailing through a pine rafter into an ash top plate. Almost all my rafters I am toenailing are ash. The odd and awkward angles and height while standing on a ladder make it easy to mis-strike but I watched one nail bend this morning when I was being gentle and meticulous and know I never missed a stroke - the nail just wasn't up to the job.
I think I misquoted the bit sizes. They are one step up from 1/8. I need to check the package tomorrow. They were probably 5/32 not 5/64 but they do still seem slightly smaller than the 16d nail diameter.
yes the math was hard to do in my head, but seems like if it was piloted through the rafter to the plate should drive ok. but if the plate is hard... when I was a kid, I found some wood trim in the neighbors trash. I took some pieces and tried to make an airplane. I was about 4. I spent a lot of time trying to drive finish nails though the wing into the fuselage. it was oak trim and after watching for some unknown time, my dad drilled some holes that made it much more fun to drive the nails. baseboard makes a good wing, when you are four! :D
the shed looks great.
Yeah the plate is almost always the the same or softer wood. I'm having nails not making it through the pilot hole to the plate. These nails probably were designed for soft, treated pine decking or such but I liked the zinc coating idea.
Your plane at 4 reminds me when my granddaughters were about that age and my son was making benches out of short pieces leftover decking and treated 4X4's for legs and 2X4's for runners and such. He'd nail the nails in and leave about an inch exposed and task the girls to hammer it in the rest of the way. They would have the handle of the claw hammer in both hands choked up tight right behind the head furiously hammering the heads of the nails in the rest of the way and hitting so hard their feet would bounce up off the floor. There was so much of the nail already in the wood I don't think they ever bent one over but they were having a blast "helping Daddy". He built a shooting blind and they must have nailed a couple pounds of nails into the flooring where they did no good but really no harm and it kept them busy. Those were really good times when we look back on them. smiley_angel02_wings
OK, I just got back form a retirement dinner for my boss I Really did not want to go to, but I try to be a gentleman, and i went. I will find out tomorrow how many of my passing comments offended the corporate type, but frankly I do not give a wing-dang. They need to grow yup and they earned it.
Anyway, the whole nail thing drew me in and I can't let it go till morning. I have many good memories of my dad giving me a board, a hammer, and a box (or keg) of nails and telling me to have a good time and see if I could drive one straight through. I must have drove a hundred nails trying to get one to go straight, but he always laughed, and it was always good, and I always felt good about what I was trying to do.
Now Howard, on your issue, I used a drill that was the same size or just a 64th smaller than the nail and drilled it to the same length of the nail less about an inch. This allowed the nail to go in OK but still drive into the home (base) wood pretty good. Anything else short of that drove me crazy.
Sorry, that's the best I can offer tonight wondering what I will pay for tomorrow after my comments at the dinner tonight which may have offended their very sensitive corporate senses. ;D If I weren't so close to retirement, they might fire me. These guys they bring in to run companies these days with all their credentials have no idea how things are made or how to run a manufacturing facility and it makes me NUTS. I am just sitting here chatting with folks i know and trust trying to put the evening out my mind while listening to ZZ Top and Credence to clear my head.
I remember setting rafters with my old mentor Kenny. he would let us try, but he did a start tap and without missing a beat 2 more hits and that nail was driven home. his right forearm was twice the size of his left. and that was toenailing rafters. now they have hurricane straps and folks use screws, although I think by code they recommend a short stubby galvanized nail.
Read the specs on those engineered straps before jumping in. generally you need to derate the connection if you use the short joist hanger nails. I installed hurricane ties last week in the mixed dry red oak and poplar framing we are using on a house. I used an 1/8" bit and 3" nails into the plate and joist hanger nails into the rafters. I think I bent 3 and had the same bit in the drill I started with but I've done a lot. My palm nailer was out on lone and unreturned, dang it. The homeowner bailed after failing to do one, somehow it was all my fault :D. It's that 10,000 hours thing and it was the wrong place to get him there, sometimes its easier to just do the job and move on.
Technically speaking ::), a pilot can be 70-90% of nail diameter depending on density of the wood. The steel the nail is made of can play a big part in the frustration level. Generally a Maze nail will cost more and is well worth it in those kinds of jobs.
I was going to x2 the hurricane straps, but DonP's post is new info for me. I thought (guessed) the screws and stubby nails were both rated for those. A lot of times I use a combination of screws and stubby nails. The screws to get the straps in place, then finish up with the stubby nails. Question for DonP: How does the de-rated connection with the stubby nails compare to the toenailed connection?
A framing nailer sure makes it easier to toenail those rafters, but with a hard wood, or even a knot in SYP, you can get some blowouts or deflections. I have noticed that pros are better at toenailing than I am. (There's a big gap between me and somebody that does it for a living!).
I probably have about 12-15 rafters left to finish so I figure I will finish as I have been doing. I will get some different nails this am and hope that was my major source of frustration and I get another pack or maybe better drill bits. The bits will only bite about 2" into the wood because of the angle - can't get full length toenailing like you can flat drilling and if I use my more expensive 6" 1/8" specialty bit I will certainly break it in short order. I have used the hurricane ties in the past and they work fine for the most part but remember now half the nailing is on the middle top plate where they overlap/join because of the length. Once I nail the first one up I just toenail from one side then nail a nail through both ends of the 2 rafters. I even used hangers in the past but they are typically designed for dimensional lumber but full size. The advantage to them is you can pre-measure everything then nail the hangers in place then just slip the rafter in. I used them on my boat shed where I bought finished rafters for a peak roof. These are just straight 2X6's and the roof just slants one way. With the hurricane ties you have a L and R to contend with sometimes too. Weather permitting and lacking other distractions I may get the rest of the rafters up today. We will see.
This is the type I was referring to: Strap (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-Z-MAX-18-Gauge-Galvanized-Hurricane-Tie-H2-5AZ/100275721)
10-4 on the almost done thing. You are close to the finish line.
Yes, that is the type I was discussing. They do come in L & R BTW so keep that in mind if you are building using them.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1775.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1583455916)
A little hard to see just the ends as I took this right at sunset. All the rafters are up. The last one is plumb flush with the very end of center top plate. I have enough top plate left on the front to add one more rafter but would have to scab on to the middle and back ones to add another. I will see how my metal finishes out and if it is worth the extra time and expense I'll add another.
I went to the local hardware store first thing this morning and bought some more 16d nails but did not get galvanized and got 4 more 5/32 drill bits. The non-galvanized nails were smoother and seemed to drive better. I only bent one nail all day and it was on the last rafter on the outside of the top plate. I did not have room to drill a pilot hole and the ladder was really in the way and could not drive it straight. I got the inside toenail in fine. I will toenail the outside the next time I am up there nailing strips on or snapping a line to mark where they will go. If we don't get the predicted snow tomorrow I and I don't have to go get my ATV, which is supposed to be ready, I should get the nailing strips up.
My neighbor stopped by to check on things but he did buy some more wood so it was not time lost. He recently medically retired and is now getting excited about woodworking and in enthralled with my stacks of slabs and such. I hope it is contagious and all his friends get the same bug. Somebody has to keep paying for my nails. :D
@Don P (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=17) mentioned a palm nailer which I've seen but never used, how useful are they for framing type work?
A gun is definitely well ahead of it as far as day to day use. When driving odd nails or odd locations it starts to shine. There is probably no faster way to bend a nail and drive it beyond removability though, there is a learning curve especially with common wire nails in hard woods. For the hardened nails I was driving straight into ties in a tight tappy tappy swing zone between rafters it makes the job go a good bit faster and easier on the arms.
I bought it when we were doing some log homes that were assembled with 12" pole barn nails. We were using sledgehammers to drive those and everyone was getting tennis elbow. That was when there was only one company making them and they were ~$300. When it blew the driver through the piston I talked to them while ordering parts, describing the failure which was new to them. He asked how it happened and I described what we were using it for. "It isn't made for that!" "Maybe not but it sure beats a sledge :D". I got parts and another one at that point. Times move on, oly type screws have replaced the honkin pole barn nails and my last palm nailer cost around $35. It is mainly used for driving hanger nails or tight framing situations now.
Well, we had snow and sleet and rain yesterday and I could not pop a chalk line. The snow began melting a little after noon so I got out and piddled with my nailing strips. It was still damp so I finally just pulled a string and once the first strip was placed I used it as base and measured from it. The most frustrating part of the day was trying to get a pair of rubber knee pads on tight. They keep slipping. They work good to help protect my pore old knees but it is a pain to try to keep them in place. I had a pair of plastic and foam ones with velcro I think that stayed in place much better but all I can find was 2 pairs of rubber ones. I guess I got about half the strips up before the sun dropped and the temp started dropping quickly and after dropping one hammer or tape measure too many for the day I gave it up. Weather and wife's schedule permitting I should get the rest of the strips up tomorrow and may even start placing my roofing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1776.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1583622599)
Nailer strips go up pretty fast. Just random lengths off assorted 1X4's.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1785.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1583710536)
Making good progress. 1- 18' roofing section is already screwed down with a 2nd 17' piece on the roof. I used to the 2 together to square up the 1X4 nailers on the left end. The metal on the ground is better than the picture shows - it is resting on boulders making it look bent and rippled. It is very straight and groups range in length from about 11' to 18'. I am nailing it in place from longest to shortest from left to right as facing the front of the shed. I will custom order more short pieces as needed from my feed dealer to cover the remaining gaps at the end. I did forget to nail my drip edge up first but I think it will slide under the piece installed and if not it is only a matter of loosening 3-4 roofing screws.
I resumed work on my 1X4 nailers this morning.I used up all them I had on the site and pulled 2-7' pieces out of stack I am drying for more school bus stops. That was perfect with no more waste. I thought I was going to have to rip a 10-12 ft 1X8 then spotted the 1X4s in the drying stack.
I nailed 1X6's on the back edge 18" from the top plate for my overhang. Using that as a guide I grabbed my chainsaw and trimmed the excess length on the 2X6 rafters then did the front only I had to use the ladder and cut off 2-3 at a time there.
I have got to get some more better knee pads before I get much further along. I tore up one old rubber one. The ones in the kitchen are the same kind and the ones in the bedroom .... Never mind :D I just need to get some that stay in place better than these one strap wonders.
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All nailers in place and rafters trimmed. Once I put the first piece of metal down I marked and trimmed these nailers on this end. One thing I noticed is I miscalculated the slope. I have a 2' drop from front to rear on both ends but the width is 12' on the narrow end and 22' on the wide end so the slope is gentler on the wide end. It will work for my purposes but what I probably should have done was framed up a 12' X 28' rectangle with a 2' drop then place the poles for the back angled section and pulled a string from both the top plates and kept that same angle on the back pie shaped addition.
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View from underneath showing the gap where my 18' metal ran out. I measured and this is 7'6". I happen to have several 8' pieces which is a perfect fit here. For the ones where I run short I will order it. My dealer can order exact lengths and I just pay for the square footage. I will just not put the screws in the last couple feet so I can slide the pieces under it. I'll allow about 6"+ overlap.
Around here we put the drip edge on top of the metal on the high side of the roof. We use a taller and longer flashing so it laps over the metal more and taller so it aligns with the side flashing.
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Man, you are moving along like a ball of fire. You will probably be roofed in and stacking lumber before next weekend at this rate. Good on ya man!
OGH - I may have to stack lumber in there because I may need the metal roofing on my outside lumber stacks to finish the shed. :D
Among first priorities is moving my benches under there. They are under a deteriorating blue tarp tacked to the end of my big shed. I'm thinking I will wall in the wide/upper end and the back and may install doors in the front 3 bays and narrow/lower end. I can do that while it in use though.
We had another real nice day to work outside. I started late morning and put up drip edge then put up metal till I ran out of screws. I have about 40% or maybe more under cover now. I have been able to measure and match up odd lengths of metal on hand to match the width of the roof/length of metal needed each time to maximize the use. I have 5-6 more pieces and may be able to splice out with some other odd pieces I have in use. The widest bay is dried in now. In most cases I have been able to line up the existing holes with the nailers but a couple just would not match and I will have to plug them when I am done. I have half a gallon or more of old black mastic roofing repair which will fill any odd nail holes not reused. That stuff never really dries but the exposed bit will harden a little. I used it on my old shed when the silicon no longer seemed to do the job. I found I can install these screws while standing and just bend over and the drill will reach which is a little easier on my knees.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1788.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1583788651)
Coverage with overhang started at about 25' and the next run has narrowed to 22' so my 2-11'3" pieces will be the next to go up.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 08, 2020, 08:21:27 PMI just need to get some that stay in place better than these one strap wonders.
Isn't that what duct tape is for? Just do a couple wraps around you legs and your leg hairs will keep it from sliding off. ;)
I seriously considered using duct tape yesterday! Since I find I can now do most of the work standing up/bent over, it is a moot point as my knees are no longer taking such a beating. I did use duct tape on my band-aid on my R index finger to hold it on this morning. The band-aid kept coming off but the duct tape helped. I got back to the house and found it was gone so I guess it is in my glove. We always called duct tape a "cold patch". :D
Getting dry under there, WV. Excellent. Good weather is a bonus for getting stuff done. You're on the home stretch now.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 08, 2020, 08:21:27 PMIt will work for my purposes but what I probably should have done was framed up a 12' X 28' rectangle with a 2' drop then place the poles for the back angled section and pulled a string from both the top plates and kept that same angle on the back pie shaped addition.
If anybody asks why the pitch on the roof varies, just tell them it was designed by a world-renowned architect like I.M. Pei. He gets big bucks for designing a roof like that. :)
If you do another trapezoidal roof you can use a framing square to create reference lines to set the pitch at both ends and snap a line on your poles. Or use an angle finder or a bevel gauge after you set the rafter at the short end and then duplicate the pitch on the long end. Lot's of ways to skin that cat without a lot of trouble. But now you have an architectural gem, so what the heck anyway. The rain will run off either end just as well.
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Looking good!!!!
If you know you have work to do that requires you to be on your knees, wear the double knee Carhart jeans, and there is an opening in the bottom to put a knee pad in (rolled up) and then it is there when you need it. in the right place and not bunching up behind your knees.
Good info, Doc. I didn't know they made pants like that.
I check in here every day to make sure that you have not fallen off a ladder and killed yourself.
Yeah its finally coming together. I am considering using those squared off post sections to make some heavy duty, movable display racks to keep some of my heavy slabs and mantels and such where people can see them better. They are locust so I can put them directly on the damp ground and not worry about them rotting.
@btulloh (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29962) ,
Tools like those fancy angle finders likely assume you have a square or plumb surface to start from. :D As I have said I am naming this shed "Ode To Little Bill". Yes it will be unique - but it is cheap. So far I probably have about $300 in it. About $250 for used/excess metal and about $50 for the hardware/fasteners. Most of what I do it as much hobby/time filler as for any expectation of profit.
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) ,
Those fancy Carhart britches sound real nice too. I believe the back of my knees are about as sore as the front.
@wdh ,
Danny, thanks for checking. If you don't hear from me for several days you might want to call my wife and let her know I am missing. ::) I haven't fallen off a ladder in nearly a week. :D It is a much safer structure to work on now with plenty of framing to brace against so the ladders can't slide. My R knee and ankle are still tender from the last fall. I find I don't bounce as well as I used to. I put on a pair of muck boots yesterday and thought I was going to cut the right one off as it was so sore I couldn't pull it out at that angle.
did my best to take a couple pics. there are cheaper double knee "logger" jeans. the knee pads are out there and not expensive. they make it so you can function and wear the protection.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/FF3B3356-C2ED-4953-AFED-D3895545017C.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1583797132)
I have 3 pair of pads, some not used yet
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go in the bottom into the pocket between the material
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on the outside but you get the idea hopefully
Quote from: WDH on March 09, 2020, 07:03:41 PM
I check in here every day to make sure that you have not fallen off a ladder and killed yourself.
Isn't the correct term "kilt yerself"?
or is it "up and killed yerself"?
or "fell down dead"?
Maybe "woke up dead"? (no, that's a different thing)
Well anyway, he ain't gone and killed hesself yet, which is very good. ;D :D
OGH,
Maybe the British have it best. They use terms like "Enjoying ill health" or my favorite is "She fell pregnant".
About the only Norwegian word I remember from working over there was that the hospital was the "Sykehus" (Sick House) which made sense to me. Oh yeah, parking was parkerring so you'd see "No Parkerring" signs all over the place.
seeing someone "Kilt" on a ladder, conjures a bad visual for me!! :o :o :o ;) :) :) :) :D 8) to sorta quote Ray Stevens, "don't look up, Ethyl!"
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 09, 2020, 08:15:02 PMso you'd see "No Parkerring" signs all over the place.
My old man had a shotgun that was "Parkerized" but I think that's different. ;D Just keep your feet under you no matter what you call it. (and don't fall pregnent). :D
Doc, I should have known you would go there. ;D
My grandma had a little sign in the bathroom. We aim to please, so you aim too please! :) you are welcome OGH!
Doc,
Urinals in Schiphol airport in Amsterdam experimented with painting a fly on the porcelain bowl as a target and they said it reduced their staff's clean up requirements well over 50%. It was fun to try to wash that fly off the surface. (Targets also work when trying to potty train grandsons but I digress...) I never got used to the women cleaners coming in the men's room there and in London. You'd be doing your business and some lady would come in pushing a mop bucket and say "Move your feet, mate, I'm trying to clean in here."
My favorite bathroom sign is "Stand closer - it's shorter than you think."
These 2 guys were walking home from the bar at about 3am and decided that... Nah, never mind. Somebody would get mad at me and I'd get in trouble or at least get chastising PM's. ;D
So yeah, are you gonna have enough sheets to cover it Howard?
OGH,
Yeah I will have or will get enough sheets to finish it. If too many I may watch the local trader for some more good used metal or check back with the guy I got the last from as he takes down homes and such and runs into such salvage sometimes.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on March 09, 2020, 08:31:56 PM
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 09, 2020, 08:15:02 PMso you'd see "No Parkerring" signs all over the place.
My old man had a shotgun that was "Parkerized" but I think that's different. ;D Just keep your feet under you no matter what you call it. (and don't fall pregnent). :D
Doc, I should have known you would go there. ;D
The parkerized finish on an M-16 was the black finish that helped keep it from rusting. Of course a Parker shotgun was a pretty high end gun. I never saw any except double barrels. Dad had one my son has it now. My son found one in a local pawn shop and offered the guy $500 cash and the guy decided to sell. He thought it was a 12 gauge. Son got home and checked and found it was a 10 gauge. Sold it two days later to a dealer in Charleston WV for $3500 and financed their Disney vacation which helped my DIL agree to his gun deals.
As to keeping my feet under me so far I have and did last week but 6' for a fat old man still gives a jolt and I bruised a knee and ankle. I am lucky not to have broken something important.
I always wondered about that Falling pregnant. I wondered if she fell and could not get up so used her cell phone to call some friends to come party or something. Of course the Brits also use terms like "Give me a bell" meaning call me or one of my favorites was "Let's go over to Bill's house and knock him up" meaning knock on the door till he gets up but always makes American's laugh.
The ever famous "Hoover the rug" is also popular.
My wife stopped at our local hardware store this a.m. while she was out for therapy and picked me up a couple more boxes of screws. $48 for 500 - ouch. nearly a dime each. I think that is about double what I've been getting them from my feed dealer who sells roofing metal. I went out just after noon and resumed my work. I placed all the rest of the metal on the roof and started screwing it down. When I ran out of metal I still needed one more 3'X16' piece to cover the last section of the narrow end and a couple of pieces to close the gap in the middle. I forgot about the drip edge and need to buy 2 more 10' sections to finish that. The bottom corner may be just a hair over 36" and worst case I could use a few feet of aluminum flashing to cover that tiny strip of exposed wood.
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You can just see a little sunlight shining through the exposed right side/end and a little in the middle. It started misting rain so I used that as an excuse to stop. I will move a couple of stacks of the wood on the right and use that metal to finish the end and part if not all the gap in the middle. I did not screw the last couple of feet of metal down there so I can slide the remaining short pieces under them. Then I will put the rest of the screws in to hold it all down.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1791~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1583866636)
Last run on the end. A 3' piece will about do it.
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Remaining gap in the middle. I need pieces from about 6' tapering down to nothing to close this.
I got out this afternoon and put the rest of the drip edge up, ripped a 7' piece of 2' corrugated metal into thirds and nailed it up as overhand to protect the last rafter on the narrow end which was covered on top but not the outside edge, moved 3 pallets of lumber under the shed to free up some more 8' pieces and put on the last row of metal. I checked some other pieces I had to see if they would fit the gap but would take more splicing than it would be worth so I now need to order a 7', 6' and 4.5' piece of metal from my feed dealer in the morning. He has pretty fast turnaround and it will likely be here Tuesday as he gets deliveries twice a week. It won't take 30 minutes to finish that when I get those pieces which should cost about $35-$40 or so. The shed is now actually in use. I may patch the unused nail holes tomorrow, clean up the cut off pieces of boards and start nailing up siding on the back and wide end.
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The last run of metal closed the end gap. I spliced with some cut up corrugated metal. Looks like I have about 2-3 little nailers still to trim.
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First 3 pallets of lumber now drying under cover.
Just super! You rock man! It's gotta feel pretty good. The next good rain you need to get a lawn chair and a cold beer and go sit under there and watch it come down. I love that feeling.
Yeah, I'm happy to see it in use but being a teetotaler I will never realize the pleasure of sitting under it with a cold beer in the rain. :( It would be good to go out in the rain and look for leaks I missed. The last time I sealed my other shed I went out at night with a big light underneath and looked for spots where there was light leaking through and sealed them with black mastic. That worked good. Was also how I'd patch our tents when I was in USMC. We'd get them in the air on an exercise and I'd send a team to fix all the tents. I'd get one guy inside looking for daylight where there was a pinhole or such. He'd take a pole and push against and center the hole on the end of the pole then I'd send a skinny 2nd story man up on top with can of glue, patches and a rawhide mallet. He'd smear glue on a patch, center it on the pole end, tap the air bubbles out with the rawhide mallet and seal the hole. It was a lot easier to see and fix the holes with the tent in the air than back at the warehouse. I just reverse the light source and do the same thing with my metal roof.
Well a hot cup of good coffee will work just as well as a cold beer. I interchange them for celebrations. good on ya'
OGH,
You're striking out at every turn dude. I don't drink coffee either. Actually my overwhelming modesty is about my only fault. :D I may have to go out with a 32 oz stadium cup full of ice and unsweetened ice tea and eat a bowl of hot grits or something.
I'm already looking at places I need to start building shelves and such to store stickers, tools and equipment as well as floor space to store lumber and such. I do need to come up with a good rack system I can store big heavy fireplace mantels and be able to turn them and show them to the customer. I'll move my benches there in a a day or so too.
O, to each his own and I am surely not one to suggest somebody should have or not have any particular habit. BUT anyone who knows me, knows that I live by the mantra "No Coffee, No Workie" and that's just me. If they made me stop drinking coffee I would have a real problem moving past that. :D
The point was "Sit...Relax....and enjoy the sound of the rain". Now, can you do that and stay within your comfort zone? ;D :D
It's a good feeling to make it water tight!!!
OGH,
My wife drinks enough coffee for whole families so I understand your feelings. In Afghanistan at one point we ran out of rice and a large part of our labor force were Indian and Filipino and they about went on strike. They told us without rice they were too weak to work.
cfarm,
Yeah even if I never sealed the unused old nail holes it would still be drier than when they were just out in the weather under sheets of old roofing.
I have 2 pole buildings and a barn, one pb has a metal roof, one has wood and asphalt shingles, and the 100+ year old barn has slate. In the metal roofed building you can hear the rain when it's so lite you can hardly feel it and if it rains really hard you should probably wear hearing protection. The old slate roof which is common around here is on slats so you can see the slates from inside, there are numerous spots where you can see light through the slates but it doesn't leak.
I ordered my 3 short pieces of roofing from my feed dealer this morning. Will be here Tuesday by noon and about $36. I went out and nailed up 2-21' - 2X4's on the back side and 4 12' 2X4s on the long end to nail siding to. I sawed some siding out of a couple of stock logs then nailed it up and closed in the back of the back bay.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1798.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1584144324)
View from the other side of the fence on the creek bank back there. A little over 1/3 now sided. All about 7' long and you can see the gap widening as you go downhill. You can see a little of the change in the pitch of the roof from this angle.
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Framing nailed up for the wide end too. Ready for siding as I saw it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1800.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1584144709)
View from the front. You can see the new framing (2X4's) on the back and end and the siding at the back of one bay as far as it went. I used my last 6" spike on the last piece of framing and am running low on 8d nails so I'll pick up some more of them in the morning. It is handy to be able to work under cover and I can leave my nails and tools there out of the weather till I am done.
Looking mighty good man!
I nailed up another 2X4 on the tall bay on the long end of my shed then started sawing 4/4 ash and installing it as soon as it came off the mill. Finished closing in the entire run by about sunset. I have about that much still to do on the back then have to decide whether to wall in the short end or try to build a couple of wide doors for that end instead. Then I will close in the top part of the front down 3-4 ft as the mood strikes me. As you may have noticed my design is pretty much done on the fly. ??? Sure makes it handy to have a mill and be able to cut whatever the mood strikes me. Of course without the mill I would not need this shed anyway. ;)
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Completed this entire end today. Low end is about 7'6" and high end about 9'6" and total length is about 22'. The ends of the boards sticking up on the rock bar next to the little buckeye is all I cut today that I did not use.
I'm impressed at how fast you have moved forward with this project. Looking really good.
@Nebraska (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=45256) ,
Some phases go quickly, others take forever. If you look back you will see I started this thread and build over a month ago so I'm not setting any speed records by any means. :D Setting the first poles alone were very difficult in such rocky soil where they had to be braced and supported instead of free standing in a deep hole. Once a few were up and I could start nailing up framing to brace against each other things started speeding up. It takes much longer to lay that first rafter and first nailler strip and first piece of metal roofing than the subsequent pieces because it is the base for all that follows. The metal roofing basically went up in 2 days once started and was only interrupted because I ran out of screws and rain one afternoon. Its a lot safer to work on now because there is framing and rafters and nailer strips to brace against and keep ladders stable and such.
I have learned a ton in the process and tried to share my mistakes so others learn from, as well as laugh at them. It is a very shoestring, hobby type budget where I have more time than cash to expend so pneumatic nailers and jackhammers and such were not an option. It basically all started when I found/bought 180' of 3' wide used roofing for $200. Using that plus several 8' sheets I had obtained earlier means I only had to buy about $35 worth of new roofing. Nails and screws and drill bits are still under $150 ($48 of that was roofing screws alone) so it is still a pretty good, sweat equity bargain.
Building alone makes you appreciate the one armed wallpaper hanger. ::)
Boy, that's the truth. It forces you to improvise and come up with all kind of new ways to do things. Some of the most frustrating parts are things as simple as dropping a tape or hammer off the roof then having to climb down and get it only to drop something else or have the end pop free on your chalk line and have to go climb down again and start all over or climb to the roof and go to the far corner and find the power cord came unplugged back at the socket and your drill won't work, etc.
Yeah, hanging 20' 2x10's isn't a lot of fun alone either! :D ;D
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So true. I see you jury rigged a solution that seems to be working. The biggest piece of framing I had to lift was a 2X12 that was 21' long. I cut 3 of them, hung one as a center top plate full length, cut one in half to tie the front and back together as top plates there and ripped another to get 2 more 2X6 rafters. Off that same log I cut several 2X6s that were 21' and a couple of long 2X4's. The long pieces let me tie together a couple of poles from 19-20 ft apart then I could brace against them to put uprights where I could not get a hole deep enough. The next time I build I may just pour a concrete footer and build on that or put a big flat rock down as a footer like Eustace Conway on Mountain Men when he built his lumber shed. Of course he had his buddy helping hold his locust poles upright while they nailed temporary bracing in place. I might could do that with the FEL on Baby John.
I read just yesterday in an old Fine Home Building magazine where a builder didn't "run into rock", he moved it there on purpose! Guy had surface boulders in the builds general area that weighed ~ 5 tons each. Kind of like you see in pastures in VA, etc.. Then dug holes and partially buried them for his timberframe support posts which were positioned on the huge rocks and kept in place via steel pins drilled into the boulders.
Caught my eye cause rocks mostly get in my way when I build. Once in my native KS I had a pile of various lumber brought out to a remote build site then talked my buddy into taking off and helping me dig creosote post holes by hand. The part that got in the way was limestone not far below the surface, such is life for those who lack experience! and I did at that time! :D
My sawmill shed has a home made long truss, not beam, (like 20' long) to hold up the log entry side of the shed roof. i used a tractor to lift it against two corner 6x6"s. Stole the design off the internet.
We watch Maine Cabin Builders on TV and I see them using concrete muffins and various short posts on cabin rehab jobs- I suppose the whole building then floats above the freeze zone which is bound to be deep in Maine. Sometimes they use the steel posts that auger into the earth as pier supports.
My next project is a cabin so the whole subject of remote foundations is of interest. I'm stuck on sono tubes on plastic bases filled w/hand mixed concrete for now. When the weather changes...
OK, I finally got it all dried it just before dark and I reversed and put an old 7-1/4" circle saw blade on and trimmed off the excess metal. Not a real pretty job but it will keep the wind from catching it. My metal came about noon today instead of Tuesday and it fit just fine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1822.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1584660581)
View from the wide end
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1823.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1584660582)
View from the narrow end. The dark gray is used metal I bought a few weeks back. The red is some I bought a year or so back. The light gray is what came in today. Sort of looks like a patchwork quilt. All I need to do to the roof is put some black mastic over the unused nail holes. I have plenty of it left over from last time. A gallon only cost about double what a quart did.
Next is to continue work on closing in the back and move my benches under cover.
You probably also wear one gray sock and one red sock :D.
I see the sock thing in the younger crowd.
What's a sock? Remember I live in WV. :D
My middle gd does that mixed colors sock thing.
My goal on the shed was to get a water tight roof. Obviously cosmetics and cost are secondary to functionality IMHO. Looking from the underside you will hardly notice. :D
Functional, minimal cost, built quickly, fits available space - what's not to like. Good deal.
I didn't know about the sock thing. Always lots to learn here.
Just warning you that you might be running afoul with the Fashion Police ;D.
Danny,
I think they are holding a joint conference with the Political Correctness Committee and both have a warrant out for my arrest. Could be something about those mismatched boots but hey, why throw away a perfectly good pair of boots just because one is slip on and the other is lace up. :D
Quote from: WDH on March 20, 2020, 09:24:11 AMyou might be running afoul with the Fashion Police
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/chicken.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1584717236)
I thought there for a second that he might be wearing
fowl chicken boots. :o
I sawed up some ash uppers off a big dead ash I cut a few days ago. I put the boards directly off the forks on to the back side of my new shed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1829.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1584833019)
All the back enclosed except for the last 5'. I have another stock log or two that will let me finish this end without using any of my precut lumber that has been drying a while.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1831.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1584833150)
Update on my smashed finger from about 4.5 weeks ago. I did not lose the nail and it does not hurt any more.
I gave up using any kind of caulking on old roofing fastener holes, or holes from where fasteners missed hitting anything. I went to stainless steel closed end pop rivets in stainless washers with the neoprene gaskets. They aren't exactly cheap, and you need a heavy duty rivet gun, but they should last as long as the rest of the roof.
I use 3/16" rivets, and washers that they fit tight in-I think #10's. I bought the last ones off Amazon. I have to drill the holes out to 3/16's, but that's all the old Marstron Big M gun will fit.
I have several shed roofs with "donated" metal on them too.
@Tom King (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=25437) ,
Have you ever tried the black mastic? I think it is the same thing they put around flashing on chimneys and roof crickets and such. I think it will outlast any other caulking out there. I painted my last corrugated metal roofing with the silver roof paint which was probably good for the rust but did not seal all the holes. I tried silicon caulk but that did not work as I hoped so I used the black mastic and have high hopes that continues to work.
Roofing tar and metal, are not long term compatible. I've replaced many pieces where someone put the black mastic on flashing, and roofing metal, where it ate holes through it. It will last some few years, but it gets to the point where it makes more trouble than it cured.
I've been working on this type of stuff, for a living, for 46 years now.
Here's a link to the rivets I used. They're not exactly cheap, but since they will outlast the rest of the roof, it's cheaper in the long run.
https://www.amazon.com/Closed-Sealed-Rivets-Stainless-0-188-0-250/dp/B07JR2ZNXM/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=closed+end+stainless+pop+rivets&qid=1584882513&sr=8-4 (https://www.amazon.com/Closed-Sealed-Rivets-Stainless-0-188-0-250/dp/B07JR2ZNXM/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=closed+end+stainless+pop+rivets&qid=1584882513&sr=8-4)
And the washers:
https://www.amazon.com/Neoprene-Bonded-Sealing-Washers-Stainless/dp/B00YG5QQ0I/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=stainless+washers+roofing+neoprene+washers&qid=1584882685&sr=8-7 (https://www.amazon.com/Neoprene-Bonded-Sealing-Washers-Stainless/dp/B00YG5QQ0I/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=stainless+washers+roofing+neoprene+washers&qid=1584882685&sr=8-7)
If there are some dead hole is the tops of 5V tin ridges, I buy larger diameter washers, and form them to fit the V's on a wooden form using a hydraulic shop press.
I don't have time to redo stuff. I like to fix it once.
I don't advertise that I troubleshoot, and fix leaking roofs, but I get called to do it once in a while. I charge double my normal rate, and tell them to start with that I don't want to do it, but I still get people wanting me to come fix one. There is an especially increased amount of such work since there are so many exposed fastener metal roofs these days. It used to not be so much trouble until they came out with 18v impact drivers, and they get put in the hands of workers who don't care.
I sawed one stock log, got enough siding to finish the back. Now just clean up the cut-offs (I got a feed sack full of them this morning for kindling as we had run low), scrap metal, and broken and escaped nails and nail heads and seal the unused nail holes. I thought about closing in the narrow end but decided to leave it open a while longer. I see I could move my pasture fence back a few feet and add one more smaller bay narrowing from 12' to about 8' X 10' long to get about 100 square ft more storage. Would only need 2 more poles, 8-9 2X6 rafters and a little framing and a couple of top plates and 3-4 more roof panels and such. We will see how long it takes to fill up what I have now.
I got so bored yesterday I tried to go out and patch the unused nail holes in my new shed roof but it was a dreary, misty, rainy day and I found the mastic did not stick well so I waited till this afternoon when the metal was dry and patched all the holes I could see. I did not use the more professional method suggested by Tom, which is no doubt a better and more permanent fix. Since this is a lumber shed and not a home or high end business and I already had the mastic on hand I used it. I have used it in the past with no negative results to date. I put between half a teaspoon to a teaspoon full of mastic over every hole with a paint stirrer. I did not get underneath and look for light yet. Since the nails were consistently installed originally when you saw one there were typically 2-3 more right in line with it so it made it easier to look and spot them.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1838.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585079788)
I probably still have a quart or more left over after this, my second project using this can.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1839.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585079940)
You can see just a few of the little black dots which are all it takes to plugs such a small hole.
I put my nailers on 2' centers which matched what the original user did so most of the holes lines up with mine and I just reused them and the little neoprene gaskets on the screws sealed them again.
You are getting too old to be crawling around on roofs spidey-smiley. Along with the virus, roof crawling is one of the things that I am trying to avoid :).
Actually the first FF Rule :P that was broken was: Ladder!! :o
Danny,
The pitch on the roof makes it pretty safe to work on (even though it varies from end to end). I was able to patch all the holes from a standing position.
Lynn,
I have been climbing up on the low end where I can get up using my 8' stepladder. I still have trouble removing my muck boots off my right foot after the last time I kicked the extension ladder out from under me while putting up rafters on the high end, hung then dropped about 6' and evidently did not tuck and roll as well as I used to. I don't bounce as well as I used to but felt lucky not to break any bones. ::)
@WV Sawmiller (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) I am behind you by about 7 years, and I am not sure when I will decide I am too old. but I know if I almost trip, it is not as pretty as it was when I was younger
Doc,
That is the problem. Too many of us have an invincible young man's minds stuck in some fat old guys body.
I worked in some pretty remote and hairy locations including several war zones and my wife used to worry about me but my old friend and scuba partner who became our financial adviser told her not to worry about me getting hurt over there as he was sure I would get killed while I was at home cutting a tree, turning my 4 wheeler over or on the lake at night in my boat or such. Actually that seemed to ease her mind - maybe she figured they could at least recover the body and she could collect my insurance. :D
Where are you in your building project? Very hard to work with mud so deep that there is no bottom to it. Course, you have rocks under W. Va mud. :D
I am trying to find a level spot to build cover for my sawmill. Last summer I hauled 50 truck loads of bankrun gravel from my personal "gravel pit". I do not dare mention that truck was full :)All 10 tires looked like were a "little" over loaded. :P Only on road for 1/2 mile and I know I was NOT overloaded. :laugh:
Tell us more about how your project is progressing. Oh, and more rain coming from your direction this afternoon. Gee, thanks.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 25, 2020, 09:24:37 AMt is the problem. Too many of us have an invincible young man's minds stuck in some fat old guys body.
I resemble that remark. Please report how well that roofing sealer works for you. I need to find some that will seal up the used metal that we used to cover our mill shed. Every time I think we have all of the leaks plugged/covered a deluge will prove otherwise. We keep spray paint in the shed to spray at the leaks so that when it dries out, John can poke some wire up through the holes so I can locate the leak and try to patch them from the top.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1841.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585261383)
@1countryboy (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11322) ,
While it will never be finished as I am sure I will be adding shelves and such and I may eventually move the pasture fence and add another 10' bay on the right it is ready to use. I moved my mill today and need to move the sawdust pile and I think I will spread it under the shed. May help keep mud off an occasional board or bench. I have 3 8' stacking pallets in the upper/left bay already and after I move the sawdust I guess benches are the next thing I will be moving in there.
@caveman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=12883) ,
I put some of it on my other shed 6-7 months ago and it seems to be working fine. It is a little messy to apply and if you get it on you use WD40 to remove it. It never really dries completely and is great where lack of flexibility causes cracks. I don't know how it would do on a big area for for simple patches, such as nail holes, I am well pleased with it. Good luck.
That's a good looking shed. I'll add the roof patch to the to do list.
We have been able to check a few things off of the list the last week and a half but most of the items we checked off of the list created more work.
Cavey,
You saw the earlier posts here from Tom King where he described how he patches nail holes with stainless rivets. That is probably a better long term solution but I had the mastic roof patch left over and its just a rough shed for lumber and rough wood products. You decide what works best for your situation. Good luck.
Looks great and "repurposed". Don't you like that new terminology :D. We always called that used and to good for the junkyard. The fixes you use to seal leaks are similar to what I use. Roofs look a lot higher than they used to!!!!!!!!!!!! and the ground is a long way down. ???
How are you going to keep water from running into the shed?
Danny,
I may get some running through just like I do in my other shed. I keep everything stacked on pallets, cinderblocks or cross ties and such. The lay of the land actually naturally diverts most of the water around that area. If blowing rain becomes enough of a problem I will wall in or hang shade screen or tarps over the front and open lower end. I will also dig trenches and make berms around the shed to divert water as needed.
The 3 pallets you can barely see in the upper, left bay, are made of 3- 2"X6"X8' spaced to 24" wide nailed across 5 - 2X4s on 2' spacings. These are stacked on top of 8" cinderblocks. That is pretty typical of how I stack under my other shed too.
A raised concrete or gravel floor would have been better but would have taken longer and cost way more than I have invested in this whole shed. When I hit the lottery I may add the gravel.
Actually a local resident, Jack Whitaker, won a $330 million lottery but took the $170 million early payout back around 2002-2003. I was working in Cameroon in W. Africa and a co-worker came up and told me "We heard someone in southern WV just hit the 330 million lottery. You better call home and see if it was your wife." I replied "There is no need to call. If she won there won't be anybody left there to answer the phone." Jack has pretty much run through most of that money by now. He got drunk and was arrested for DUI and carrying a concealed weapon. Our local judge (Judge Irons) at the trial said "Jack, you're gonna have to do some time for that DUI but we're gonna throw out that gun charge. If I had that much money I wouldn't go around unarmed either."
If I win I will take the money and run. No way would I trust the state to hand out the money to me. ::)
Yes, I might run out of money too after I buy all of the equipment I want. :D
Since I did an off site job Thursday while the mill was moved I loaded up the sawdust and dumped a couple cubic yards under the last 2 bays of my shed to cover the mud there. I raked it out to cover the area today and removed the benches I have had stored all winter. I see some got damp and I see some mildew. I will clean them and if required I will re-sand and refinish with more tung oil. I have a couple of long benches I will likely cut in half and rebuild as smaller benches which seem to sell better because they are easier to transport. I moved/re-located the 4 plastic pallets I had stacked the pallets on. On one big pallet there was some fine gravel that made a buzzing sound sliding down. It was in the 80's today and I thought I had disturbed a big old timber rattler and that will get your heartbeat raised real fast and a lot. I re-stacked the benches under the new shed in one half of the center bay. I had 23 benches in stock. I'd say I can probably easily store 40 or more and if I decide to use the whole bay I can get 100 or more in there.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1845.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585436050)
Benches made of wild cherry, locust, ash, walnut and white oak. Range from 3' to 6' long.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1846.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585436168)
View from above.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1847.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585436265)
Stacked on 4 pallets in half the center bay of new shed on a dusting of clean sawdust. Bag of cut-offs leaning on the pole. A handful of longer cutoffs in the back right which will likely be used for future projects.
OH man, that is impressive. You have been hiding your lamp under a basket, you sneaky dog. It all looks great! I wish I had that much stock. Now I feel like you have raised the bar. I have 5 or 6 slabs in the shop finish drying and on the table for the next work sessions. But with the stock you have I have to step up. Geez man, good for you! It must feel great to have that new space. I am tickled pink for you! 8) 8) 8)
OGH,
Thanks. It has been a learning experience as to what sells and what will not. Smaller is better in my experience. I doubt I make anything over 3' long unless a special order or and odd piece of wood that won't work in that size. You can make a pretty nice bench out of a 6-8 inch wide slab if the right piece comes along.
My next goal is to try to build a rack in that last stall, probably along the wall, to store fireplace mantels. I usually make them 3 or 4 inches thick and mostly 8' with an occasional 10' piece. They are up to about 17-18 inches wide and I need a better way to display them. I may even see if I can build a vertical rack where I can stand them on end and maybe slide them around to a point where I can show both sides. Maybe something with a slight angle with the foot kicked out so they lean against the wall or more framing on the same uprights. They are very heavy and can be dangerous so safety if first concern with display access secondary. I'll sleep on it and see what develops.
Geez and I was happy I sawed some 3x3 elm to make some legs the otherday. You have a lot to show for a winter.. looks really good.
These have been in stock all winter. I probably have not made a bench in 6 months. I have dozens of legs already cut and tenons applied. I can take any 8/4 LE plank in stock, bore 4 holes, glue and drive the legs on, cut off the excess and throw it on the mill and cut the legs to the right angle and height in one pass and have another bench ready to sand and finish in about 30 minutes or so.
I like that picture that shows the different type of wood you used. Like the colors!!!
Surprisingly one of the prettiest woods I have found to make benches is black locust. It has a really pretty grain pattern.
I went out and brainstormed how to build a shelf or rack or something to store heavy fireplace mantels until I about used up my last brain cell and everything I contemplated either seemed too complicated or too dangerous. I finally decided to just try stacking them on short, heavy duty sawhorses. I decided on 2X6 legs, about 18' tall and 4' long. I collected and used up most of my rafter cut-offs, used one broken 2X4, ripped a long 2X6 rafter with wane into a decent 4' 2X4, etc. I got 2 of them built today before 2 busybody neighbors saw me and both drove out to see me. I'll finish the other one in the morning and may move the mantels then. If this doesn't work I will still have 3 more good sawhorses and I can rearrange them in the future if I change my mind.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1848.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585529387)
One of the finished sawhorses. 3-4' 2X4's for the top I-Beam, 4-18", 2X6' for legs - 18 16d nails, 8 - 8d nails, and about 10' of 1"X 3" for stretchers.
It is amazing how much weight those Ibeam saw donkeys can hold. You are filling your shed up. You will probably be adding on soon.
Some L shaped brackets mounted to the walls may also work to display mantles. The lumber store that sells some of our wood has mantles mounted behind the front desk on steel brackets.
I make them with the legs 20" (2x4's or 2x6's), the beams 42" long (matches the forks) and cut 10° angles on the tops and bottoms of the legs. I don't brace lengthwise but do put in short braces between the legs on the ends. They are easy to carry, stack and quick to build. We use them to stack lumber on as we drag it back off of the sawmill.
If you want to see some wobbly wood projects, turn some 14-17 year old kids who were raised by Facebook and Netflix loose with a handsaw (or chop saw), hammer, nails, square, bevel and a tape measure and ask them to build a saw horse. They will make up for their lack of ability with enthusiasm.
Quote from: caveman on March 30, 2020, 12:24:53 PMIt is amazing how much weight those Ibeam saw donkeys can hold.
Here's another take on saw horses/bucks/donkeys...
Next Level Carpentry (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEUgNjT1nGU)
He demonstrates just how much the saw horses can hold. Pretty interesting.
Yeah, they are stout. I built the 3rd one today and put them in place and stacked 14 rough mantels on them that I am sure weigh well over half a ton. The mantels are a mix of 3" and 4" with a couple of walnut, one character ridden ash, several cherry, a couple of spruce and one wormy white pine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1859.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585598351)
Side view from the end/last bay. This stack of mantels takes up about half the bay.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1858.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585598463)
From the front view of the shed - end of the mantels. BTW - those little sawhorses are quick and fun to make and great use for scrap pieces of wood.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1852.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585598602)
10' X 4" walnut mantel, 8' spruce and 8' ash
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1853.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1585598953)
looks like 4" cherry with some sweep. I have squared off the back and made round edged mantels in the past that worked real well.
Not super easy access but light years ahead of where I had them store before. And if I find I don't like them here it will not be real hard or take long to move them now.
@EOTE (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=44084) ,
The guy in the video does a great job but most of that measuring and precision is not necessary IMHO. I put a block 4' from the blade on my RAS to cut the tops and side . I eyeball the 2X4s to center the pieces when making the I-beam and hammer in 3 16d nails from each horizontal to the vertical 2X4. I used scrap 2X6 cut-off rafter ends for the feet, in this case I cut them to 18" on the RAS predrilled 2 holes in the 2X6's about an inch from one end with a drill press, positioned and nailed them then nailed another into the vertical piece, cut, pre-drilled and nailed a couple of 12" 1X3 or 1X4 or whatever scrap is handy and nailed on the ends of the 2X6 legs then predrilled and lined up the 4' 1X3 or 1x4 stretcher and nailed all the stretchers on with 8d nails on the front side of the legs. Since I am using them on dirt I don't worry about the angles on the bottom of the feet. If I wanted to use them on a concrete floor I'd turn them upside down on my mill and saw them off like I do my benches so they would all be cut at the same angle and length. For waist height working I make the legs 36" tall.
WV Sawmiller, I actually like your saw bucks a lot for working on dirt or gravel... It looks like you could park a tractor on top of a couple of them and do the service. They reminded me of the video because you use the I-beam concept. That is a super strong configuration. I really appreciate you sharing your progress and ideas.
WV looking great. i have a set I made to work on a 18 foot sailboat in the parking lot of my apartment in Albany, NY during residency. I did a span of plywood on the ends to stabilize the ends but no stringers. I used glue and nails. My two are 7 feet long each, and held a thousand pound boat. they will stack up and nest on top of each other. looks like you will need a second set so when the guy brings his wife, and she wants to see the one on the bottom, you will have a place to re-stack! smiley_hairbow smiley_beatnik smiley_furious3 smiley_beertoast smiley_roller
Doc.
That is true but I have several 3' tall ones sitting around for that and I can also use if I have to move them around to show a customer or if I just need to move a few I can stand them up against the wall or put them on the tractor forks. I typically moved 3-4 at a load. But building some more is not out of the question as they are a great salvage option and they are for sale if a customer wants a pair of them.
EDIT/Add-on: I am not worried about stacking. I leave mine outside and am not overly concerned about the weather effects as they are just too cheap and easy to make using salvage from my scrap pile. I don't know that I will ever be able to market them as there are too many cheap folding sawhorses from HF and others and they are well made for their intended purpose so I'm not knocking them either.
@caveman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=12883) ,
I'm not ignoring your suggestion about the L's either only Instead of buying metal I might just make shelves using 2X12's cut into diagonals. I've made some for my wife and she has boxes of copy paper stacked on them as heavy the typical mantels with plenty more weight capacity. The problem with that option is they take up so much wall space. If I were going that route I think I'd want to store/display them on the opposite end of the shed where there is a 22' wall. I'll keep kicking that option around for future use. Thanks for the brainstorming help.
I started to put this in the Whatcha Making but figure Tom intended that for crafts and not general construction. I had mentioned earlier about building an extension on my last lumber storage building and using it to store and display live edge slabs and Fireplace mantels and such.
The hard part of any project is finally getting started and a couple days ago I squared or at least partially squared a couple of locust I had salvaged from a storm or knocked down by other trees i had cut. I cut a 14' and a 15' pole for this project.
Yesterday I dug a 30" deep hole and set the 15' pole. I was real happy with that as often it is hard to get a hole deep enough to hold a pole upright. Amazingly I did not hit any big rocks and I dragged the pole to the hole, placed my 6' spud bar against it to hold it in place then lifted and pushed forward with the FEL on the little JD 750 and the pole slid right down the spud bar into place. I had to turn the pole a little to line up the squared sides with the existing barn. Since a locust pole that size weighs about 360 lbs I wrapped a choker around it and put the spud bar in the loop and rotated it right into place. What age removes in the muscle. strength and endurance department it replaces with experience. I leveled/plumbed up, tamped and steadied the pole and called it an afternoon.
Today I did the same thing with the second pole but I had to cut my fence as it is about 3' outside the fence line. I strung it off from 2 directions and dug a 2' deep hole through some healthy buckeye roots and a few rocks till I hit a big rock on the bottom. I lifted and raised and inserted the pole as before and my system worked fine again. A few nudges and a light twist and the pole was right in line and pretty dang near plumb. I finished plumbed it level, tamped and steadied everything. Then I extended the fence to keep the horse in and put my tools away while a few snowflakes fell. Now I just need to scab on to a couple of 2X12's and finish framing and installing rafters, get a roof on it, build my slab storage racks which I'll attach to the back nailers and trusses then I'll put my siding on and move my slabs into it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3388.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674253767)
Opening is 12' on front. back will also be 12' but angles in due to the lay of the land. The end is 8' from outside to outside of the uprights. Height is about 10' at the back and 12' at the front. I'll leave a foot of overhang on front and back and probably about 2' on the end. I'll close in the back but not the front and probably not the end unless I use a tarp or something so I can still have ready access.
Howard, you can put whatever you want on that other thread, I ain't the hall monitor, however I think none of us would want to know when your 'making hay' so to speak. :D
Looking good, nice start, yeah that's the hardest part (ask me how I know). How deep is your frost level there? Up this way we have to go 4' with posts, unless we hit shelf. Big rocks don't count as shelf. ;D I would think 2' down that-a-way should be fine. Keep on pluggin' kid, you are over the hump!
Tom,
I have never heard how deep the frost line is here. I would bet a water line buried a foot deep would not freeze but I'd go deeper if I were putting one in. For a pole barn set in dirt I don't see where it is going to make much difference. I am not pouring footers or anything just putting poles in the dirt. My biggest concern is just getting a deep enough hole to to hold the pole upright till I get it framed in. I know some of the poles in the original build are not a foot deep with the pole just sitting on a rock. I remember if I could get every other pole 2+ feet deep I'd run a cable between them to hold the pole upright till I got the framing up. Its been up 2 plus years with no problems.
The original pole barn I built is 35-40 yards away and I had no problem getting 3' deep postholes for it but the topsoil is lots shallower on this side.
The frost line in Virginia is two feet minimum. All posts, underground utilities must be that depth or more.
For most of West Virginia its 32-40 inches.
Well I know it's not a big concern for you, but what happens when the frost takes hold is it will lift those posts straight up, racking your shed, then drop back down in the spring. This moving up and down every year takes it's toll by loosening your structure joints, causing roof leaks, etc. Over many decades a large rock that a post was set on can begin to 'grow upward' and not go down each spring as much as it goes up each winter and over a long period I have seen posts that gain 6 inches in height, while others in the same building have gained none, or even lost height which all makes a mess out of the building. In my limited experience, I have never seen bad effects like that in a building less than 50 years old. However, if you plan on living that much longer, you may have some chores to do. :D
Truthfully I am quite sure you are more than fine and safe. I was just curious. Given what Rustic said, I believe you have nothing to worry about. Up here, you do have to be careful with stuff like that. Under my shop driveway there is a large rock buried some ways down. In the summer everything is at grade level. In late February in really cold years that section of the driveway heaves up about 6 inches over about 10 sq. ft.. I have 'found' the heave with my plow a couple of years to the point that it stopped the plow dead, lifted the back tires clear from the ground, and nearly took all the teeth out of my head (well, what's left anyway).
I have no doubt you'll be just fine as long as you stay off ladders. :D
Yeah, that ladder issue is getting pretty close. Not much else I can do from the ground. Now I need to dig through a couple of piles for some 2X12's for those headers and some short ones to scab on to the previous build. I think there are 2- 15' 2C12s in that stack on the right beside the front pole. I may have a pine one in the original shed and am pretty sure I have a couple of short ones for scabbing material. I need some 5.5" bolts for that but don't when I'm going to TSC to buy them by the pound. I may buy a handful from my local hardware or just use 16d nails to get everything started then get the bolts the next time I am in Beckley at the TSC.
Don't understand how a building without poles being anchored deep in the ground can stay anchored down in a wind storm? Here I put poles at least 4' deep. A neighbor built a steel shed without digging deep piers, and we had a wind storm and it was spread all over the field. Is the wind in West Virginia calm?
ffk,
Well, come to think of it we don't have the wind issues here they do in lots of places I have lived. Maybe the mountains stop them. We had a Derecho here 9-10 years ago with hurricane force winds but that was before I had my mill or had built the 2 pole barns I have since erected to store lumber.
I did have a hay barn built with similar poles but it was more closed in than the lumber sheds. My hay barn stood up to the storm with no damage at all.
Okay, back to today and my current extension project.
If I were hiring me to do this work I'd have to pay by the job and not by the hour as it is not breaking any speed records.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3394.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674346048)
At the end of the day I had installed an ash 2X12 that was 15' long on the back which is the low side. I also scabbed on a 5' long 2X12 to connect to the existing section. I also tacked on the ash 8' long 2X6 on the end but I consider it just tacked up and need better fastening. I need a new sharp 1/4" spade bit to get through the 2X lumber into the locust upright deep enough I can drive up a 60d 6" spike to connect them. Today I only got a couple of inches into the uprights before the spike bent. I think the galvanized 6" spikes are pretty soft and bend easily. I wish I could use lag screws but they are soft metal and break off in locust.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3390.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674346687)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3391.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674346686)
To install the heavy 2X12 I pulled a string and nailed up a short 2X4 to rest on and chained it to the pole in place while I positioned and fastened the other end. Doing so pushed the upright out of plumb a little.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3392.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674346878)
To pull the pole back upright I grabbed a small cable come-along and pulled it back into proper plumb then nailed it in place.
I have another ash 2X12 for the front but I see it has a big crack abouts half way so I either have to scab a reinforcement on it or find another 2X12 and use several feet off this one to connect the new and existing sections.
I tried to do the easier to reach sections first because they also stabilize the front which is the tallest piece to be added.
Mr. Green:
You wrote: "Today I only got a couple of inches into the uprights before the spike bent."
Suggestion: coat the ends of the nails in oil or grease prior to driving in.
It might help aleviate the bending issue.
If you do try it please let us know if it works.
GAB
pre-drill.
Doc.
I had pre-drilled through the ash but just had a regular drill bit which would not reach into the locust uprights. My 1/4" spade bit is long enough but is worn out and I need to replace it to get deeper. I'll get a new one Monday when the hardware store is open. I'd rather have an auger but the last time I tried it I just twisted it off in the wood.
Gerald,
I will try greasing the next spikes I use and I'll let you know if it helps. It sure can't hurt.
No work on the shed today except some mental which took up part of the night too. It was a dreary drizzly wet day and I spent several hours of it looking for my wife's lost cell phone. I think I spend half my days helping her find her phone, wallet keys and the checkbook but that is another story. We even drove to the last place we had gone to 2 days ago and she had called and had it turned off.
Anyway, weather permitting, I will hit the local hardware store in the morning for a 1/4" auger bit and some carriage bolts for scabbing then I'll resume work. I figure I can lift the last 2X12 with the ATV and a cable and snatch block for a pully.
when I made my log buck from the roller frames, I used honey locust. and the pre-drilled holes where larger than it would have been for other wood. I twisted off a few, but most got to the point the impact would not turn them anymore.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/F19CDCB2-1940-4C6C-9D98-6476E45B8945.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1571875371)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/62243D6F-4600-4C2A-9642-297A5BBBA86D.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1571875741)
From memory...it's in the wood handbook somewhere, it says to predrill with a bit that is 70-90% of the root diameter of the screw. It took busting several large lags in black locust for me to really appreciate that range :D. Another sixteenth of diameter on the predrill and some wax on the threads got em in.
Beeswax or a bar of plain old ivory soap will work for lube (the soap is handy for other stuff too). That 70-90% thing has always been in the back of my head for so long I have no idea where I learned it from. The thing is, with big stuff like there, there is a HUGE difference between 70 and 90% (besides being 20% ;D). One some woods, 70% is undriveable (is that a new word?) and on some woods 90% will never make tight.
Decisions, decisions... :D
I checked and see a 40d or 60d nail are both .238" diameter. It looks like a 40d is 5" and 60d is 6" long. I have been using a 1/4" spade bit or auger which should be making a bigger hole than the nail but they have always held good in the past. Maybe it is the extra length. I think the galvanized nails may be a little thicker because of the coating so maybe that is why they hold so well.
I bought my stuff this morning. I probably should have waited till I was at a TSC to buy the carriage bolts and such as the bolts were $2.29 each and nuts and washers were $.37 & $.35 each instead of by the pound. They only had common 60d nails. All told was $71.51 for the hardware, auger and drill bits.
I confess (again) I have never greased or waxed a screw or nail. I may see what a squirt of ATF in each hole does.
and of course over 100% for the shank wood for lags and screws so they turn freely and clamps the two together.
I patched a crack in the 2X12 header I planned to use but when I lifted it using a snatch block and cable with my ATV. As luck would have it the patch hit right where the upright sits so now my fasteners are not long enough. I could unbolt the patch. Raise and nail the header then put the patch back on but I checked and found another 2X13 long enough to use. Of course it is half way down in the stack which reminds me why I started this extension build in the first place.
With the new auger and ATF on the spikes they go in real easy - maybe too easy. I would pre-drill the whole length from now on.
It is so muddy out there it is miserable to try to work so I put up my tools and will try again tomorrow. Maybe it will dry up some. If it would freeze hard it would be easier to work too.
I think I have pretty much figured out the header issues and expect it to go well tomorrow or whenever I get weather and time to work on it.
Meanwhile I have been thinking about a floor or I guess more appropriately I should call it a floating deck. I am contemplating taking a bunch of locust posts I have accumulated and throw them on the mill and saw them down to about 4" thick and not worry about edging them. These would be in contact with the ground. I'm thinking I'd probably cut them to about 3' lengths, lay them down and nail 1" boards to them to make about a 3' X 10' (Maybe 8') deck. I could make 2-3 of them to cover as much of the area as I need. I'd start with one 3' section to build my rack for vertical storage of live edge slabs. If it works well I could build a 2nd or even 3rd deck to cover more of the area.
A big challenge is the out of square shape of the back wall. The storage bay is about 10' wide on the inside and 8' on the outside end and about 12' long on both ends. I am thinking of making the deck square with the outer end.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3395.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674518624)
You can see I am no architect but here is what an aerial view of the footprint would basically look like.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3396.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674518765)
This what I am thinking of cutting and laying 4" thick LE locust posts/strips down as footers next to the back wall and nailing floor boards on top of them. The area is relatively flat but not level and no attempt to level it other than minor raking will be done. The storage rack for the live edge slabs would rest on top of this deck.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3397.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674519014)
From above this is where the deck would be positioned and the storage rack would rest on it.
If this works and I want more I can build more decks in the future. If it does not work I could tear it out and have a dirt floor like the rest of the shed as shown below.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3374.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1673280966)
Has anyone ever built such a deck? Any comments or suggestions on the proposal?
If you can slope the dirt to drain, put plastic down, gravel to level and keep it dry. Hmm, I think I just quoted the treated wood floor guide.
That's exactly what I did in my storage quonset hut. Roughed out the ground, leveled some crushed stone and put down some tar paper I wanted to get rid of (it was dried out), then put a full sheet of plastic and graded with crushed stone. I had a mess of Recycled T&G pine wall boards, so I put that on top for durability. It's bee dry in there with no moisture rise for about 6 years now and I used up a bunch of junk I kept moving around.
I would not want to try to level it end to end but could probably do so side to side.
I like the idea but I bet the crushed gravel fairy can't find WV. I may have to do like the old women I saw in Haiti and Cameroon in West Africa sitting there with a sledge hammer with about a 1' handle breaking up stones and selling them to local contractors to use in making concrete. Sure makes me miss all that sand and river gravel back where I was from in N. Fla as that was a major industry. I guess I could pick a few of the smaller stones around here for fill and put them on the plastic then use the crushed stone to level things out.
I should have known better than to let the design committee get wind of this project as you know that is going to create work and cost money. I guess this is payback. :D ;)
EDIT-ADD-ON:
BTW - how do you keep the gravel from punching holes in the plastic? I understand Tom's tar paper helping protect and I could see if it were sand but thinking of the gravel I put in my drive looks like it would poke holes in the plastic. I thought about a cheap nylon tarp but that is not really waterproof is it?
Well Howard, now you know how it feels to be on the receiving end of the committee a little bit anyway, but you are getting off lucky, we haven't come up with anything pricey ....yet. ;D
I have a couple of partial rolls of heavy visqueen which is a clear plastic, about 20' wide. We used it for wrapping machines that were cleaned in a clean room for transport, hanging temp curtains, etc. It tends to stretch quite a bit before it punctures, of course when it gets old, all bets are off. I was using it up because I was getting tired of moving those heavy rolls around when I re-arranged things. I still have at least a couple hundred feet of it. The tar paper was just to use it up, but it added another level. The wood on top was another 'use it up' deal. I burned what I didn't use. It works well for driving the lawn tractor and other gear in there. It's amazing how that floor has stayed dry and I don't get the condensation in there that I expected. None of my durable machine parts and other stuff in there is not rusting away as I thought would happen. The whole thing sits in the middle of my swamp, so there is that.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
SO what do you have to work with. Crushed stone is common here and a lot of folks will collect bank run gravel for free in buckets from the rock cuts on some roads where it is just sliding off the hill. The stuff I used was surplus from a few jobs that overran which my son did (maybe he ordered heavy for me, but he never said). Sand, dirt, something, anything that you can use to get things close to what you need will help. Got an implement for the tractor that can turn or break up your ground, use that. There has to be something around free, or for cheap you can use to grade things a little better than they are. Flat stones maybe? Do your neighbors have anything? Maybe a barter deal? Just ponder on it a bit, something will pop into your head.
Be happy to fill your truck with gravel in kit form :)
*On the plastic. In a perfect world you have built a pitchers mound under the roof, in other words water is not running through your tent. The plastic is to keep the ground moisture out of the space between dirt and the wood. If it makes it easier to put it on the gravel I don't think it'll matter. That is where I put it under a slab. It also doesn't really matter if it gets somewhat holey, it is still reducing the moisture in the soil from having a free path ...or that's what they tell us in response to that question under slabs.
Tom,
I collected a few FEL bucket loads of the bank run gravel next to my mail box a couple weeks ago to fill in a couple of pot holes by my bridge and under my yard fence gate. It is so full of clay and dirt it is not much count for drying anything.
I have a couple of fields full of rocks that have been washing up and a couple of rock bars of big rocks. I actually will collect a few cart loads of them and put down. I have them under my tractor where it was rutted out and held water all the time. They will help.
I was in charge of building a man-camp in Haiti when we built the Embassy there. We rented the land in front of the embassy and had to move the Noodle Lady to build the camp where she was squatting. She would cook a big pot of noodles or beans or such and fed our local workers breakfast and such. To get her to move we gave her a used 20' connex and set it up a couple hundred yards away but still on the property we were renting (23 acres) but off the camp site. She was one happy lady because now she could lock her pot and table up at night and not have to worry about it being stolen. My fondest memory of Haiti was watching her 11-12 y/o daughter carrying her table to the connex and sweeping it out with a palm frond. That was one happy little girl and her mom's life was so much better.
We shipped the camp over on a ferry from Houston and many of the units were like mobile homes with one open side closed in with heavy plastic similar to what you are describing. It was in very high demand by the local workers but we saved a couple pieces and helped the Noodle lady tack it up to the side of her connex so now she even had a covered dining area! She was in tall cotton!
Not to upstage Don, but I think Cfarm has a standing offer for free large sized kits. You just have to take care of transportation.
Don,
From the picture of the shed above you can see why the "pitcher's mound" concept won't work. There are several feet of slope just on a 40' run.
Tom,
Trust me - large rocks are not in short supply. I have thought about posting a sign "Anyone caught stealing the rocks here will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law" hoping people would think they have value and remove them for me. I thought about the same thing with multi-flora roses when we got here but I pretty much have them under control now.
Hence the comment, keep the water out of your tent, make water go around rather than through. The gravel and plastic are not keeping you dry from liquid water, they are to keep the ground moisture, the rising damp, from ... rising. Geometry keeps tha water out.
Under a starter hothouse here the grade goes from nothing to ~4' of fill. I brought in rocks, would plop them down and then a scoop of pea gravel worked around it. Under the floor of the shop goes to about 2' deep the same way. The big rock can really extend the pea gravel if you have easy to get rocks.
Yes, Don, sorry I whiffed on that comment. You are spot on, exactly what I did. It's a 12x 24' pitchers mound. My thinking was just as you said, the plastic and the tar paper won't fix it all , but it sure will slow it down a lot, and it amazes me how how it has done that. I figured the stuff I stored out there would be doomed to a slow death, but it turns out that everything pretty much looks like the day I set it out there. Even the mice like it for nice dry nesting places. >:( But it's not a hard roof, and what will likely end the party is a tree coming down on it someday.
If I could get the cash I would love to put another of those things up, but the supplier I bought from seems to have gone away and I don't want to buy another brand of lesser quality. This one is a heavy rubberized fabric material and holds up well under the snow and ice. It would make a good place to store lumber in the quantities I handle. (Well, maybe two of them. ;D)
Now we're cooking with gas - oops, I might better not say that as I hear there are idiots out there who already want to take away my gas stove.
I took pictures but bumped the setting on my camera and all of them were too bright to make out the detail.
I cut 5' off the 2X12 I tried to use unsuccessfully yesterday and finally got it in place with the aid of some rope and a lot of effort. Once I got 2 heavy carriage bolts in it to connect to the existing header it was stable and ready to use.
I unstacked several layers of ash slabs and boards till I got to another 2X13. I cut it down to 13' which is still plenty of trim. I hooked the cable and snatch block too it from yesterday and raised it with the ATV winch. I had to adjust a time or two to get the length right to marry up with the other header. I lifted the other end to the little shelf I had put in place for it. I chained the new header in place on the new corner pole and removed the snatch block and the chain holding it. I used a ratchet strap to hold the 2 ends together on the left side then drilled and got a couple of bolts through the scab piece and the new header. I checked the plumb and found I had pulled it over pulling the heavy header up so I go the tractor and pushed it back into plumb and bored some pilot holes and installed 2 60d spikes to secure the header to the upright. That completed the framing on the new bay.
While I had the tractor handy I went ahead and lifted 8 15' long ash 2X6's for rafters and lifted them on top and across the framing. If all goes well I should get the rafters toenailed to the rafters and maybe even get a few nailers put in place.
I checked my measurements again and the new bay has 3-12' sides and one 8' end so that should be about the same amount of storage space as a 10X12 bay or 120 sf of floor space. Next I need to measure and take inventory of my available roofing and order enough extra to finish then start collecting small rocks to put under my deck.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3402.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674599843)
I went back out and got a picture before it got too dark. You can see where I scabbed on at the left by the ladder and you can see the rafters across the framing ready to install.
Howard, too bad you are not closer. I found a box of about 20# of 60 d ring shank nails I bought on clearance 15 years ago.
I nailed my last one today on the header and cannot think of any more 60d nails I'll I will need on it. I'll start on the 16d stash tomorrow for toenailing the rafters to the headers. I'll cut me a 14" spacer from a piece of scrap and that will be my guide. I could measure on the front/straight/square header and mark 16" centers but on the angled foot that does not work. I'll use the same measuring stick when putting in the nailers to prevent any bow left or right. Its a quick and easy way to do them.
No building for a few days it appears. Pouring rain and 85% chance of rain today with over 50% for the next 2 after. Saturday looks decent so it may be then before I can really work on it again. Its a bummer too as I was all set to make some major progress on it.
One thing I am reminded of on the build is the change in slope. I built it with the front 30" taller than the back so I have that much slope/run-off. The angled back is the problem as it changes from about 22' at the wide end to 8' on the narrow end so the slope is "walking" on me. I have 30" of drop on 22' width on one end and 30" of slope on 8' on the narrow end. It still works fine but I don't know how you'd keep the slope the same on a moving target. I just kept the front and back level from end to end.
Well, I got a call a 4 wheeler I had in the shop was ready and since it was 38 degrees with spitting snow and high wind I decided to go get it instead of working on the shed. While I was out I visited a pawn shop while my wife was next door at the cloth shop. This guy had a gravel display out so I asked him and he said his pea gravel (probably everything he had) was $65/scoop. Apparently a scoop is about a cubic yard. We have to go back there next week for my wife's eye appointment so I could take my trailer and get a scoop there at the same time. I figure a cubic yard should make a bed 10" deep for a 3'X10' deck or more realistically 4-5 inches for a 5-6' wide pad 10' long.
When I got back and put the ATV I went ahead and started on the shed rafters and got 4 of them in before dark. I have 4 more up there and if that is not enough I don't think I will need more than one more rafter and probably no more than a 12' one. I will check but I don't think I have any in stock as an old neighbor bought most of what I had a few weeks ago. I could resaw a 2X8 or such but I have small poplar log section near the mill I can buck to 12' and cut the rest up into 1X4s for nailers. I am confident I will get all that done tomorrow as we expect snow instead of rain and I can work in that.
Sometimes, not often but once in a great while, things just click and today was one of those days! It was cool but the sun was shining. I started with my chainsaw cutting the 2 uprights off even with the top of the headers and did not cut anything important or drop anything breakable or expensive.
I resumed nailing the 4- 2X6X15 ash rafters to the headers. Other than one sliding off and having to be lifted again that went pretty well. In fact, when I nailed the last one in place and took my measurements I realized I was not going to need an extra rafter that I thought I might need to cut.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3403.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674858343)
I checked my supply of 12' poplar 1X4s for nailers for the metal and found I had plenty. Turned out I only needed 7 of them and one 5' one to finish the angle. They went up smoothly.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3404.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674858412)
I trimmed off the rafters with my chainsaw, took this picture then realized I had not trimmed the ones on the front so I trimmed them right after this picture so the excess length on the front is now gone too.
I did a quick inventory of my used metal. I have a hodge-podge but it turns out I have enough 3' wide metal like the rest of the roof for 3 more runs which means I will only have to buy one sheet of metal to finish the build. I'll put on what I have in the morning, measure and order the remaining piece and it normally comes in 2 times a week so by mid week it should be in. I think I have enough drip edge in stock for my next composting toilet build to borrow to finish the edges.
To top it off I called a local dealer 15 miles away about gravel and they have it for $27/ton vs $65/scoop (about 1200 lbs) of pea gravel from the dealer I talked to yesterday who is 30 miles away. I suspect a ton will be way more than I need to cover the area I want to use at first.
Its looking like my shed extension is going to cost me less than $150 and I can start on the racks for my live edge stock by the end of next week. :)
Howard,
You can never have too much, stone or gravel !! I bet you find a use for it right off
Matt
I knew it was too good to last. I went out and put 2 pieces of drip edge on the front and back and started placing my used metal. I got 2 sections (6' total width) and had 2 more pieces for another 3' then I noticed someone had cut about 4" off one side in its previous life so I could not use it. Besides, I ran out of screws for the project so I had to order one 7' piece and one 11'9" piece of metal and Ill pick up a couple of pounds of screws at the same time. Looks like it will be here Thursday. I still have about 60% of the new area dried in so I will move/restack a stack of ash boards and go ahead and get a load of gravel and spread it then start on my deck and LE slab rack.
I've got to go back out and bring in some firewood and I'll take a picture and add it later.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3405.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674935877)
View from underneath. The last short piece of roofing is just tucked under the adjacent piece and hopefully the wind won't blow it away before I get the other metal and screws next week,
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3406.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1674936007)
The stack of ash 4/4 boards on the short sawhorses will have to be moved and I'll put gravel under the back area. This the most level spot in the shed. I'll frame in the back, connect the LE Slab rack to the framing on top of the deck which will be on the gravel. Then I will wall in the back which I'll leave open for access to the rack build. I forgot to measure but I think there is about 10' of clearance at the back and over 12' at the front.
On advise from the design committee ( ???) I decided to go get a load of gravel for my shed extension today. I first built a simple box/fame to fit in the bed of my flatbed 5X8 utility trailer.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3408.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675118542)
Just a scrap wide ash board cut into 2 end board just under 5', a 1X8 & 2-1X4's for the sides and I picked up 4 short cut off 2X4s out of my scrap pile and tacked them together with 10-12 screws about 2" long each.
I drove to a store 15 miles away who sells stone and such and bought one ton of gravel. Here's what a ton of gravel looks like.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3409.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675118884)
I snapped the shaft of the 2" ball on the blade of my tractor turning too sharp but the safety chain held and worked.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3410.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675119015)
It is awful muddy out there but I got the trailer close and unloaded it and covered about 2/3 of the pad along the back side where I planned to build the LE Slab rack. I leveled it to about 3" thick then measured and realized there is not enough height to stand a 10' slab along that wall so I think I will board in the end and build the rack there so I can accommodate 10' slabs. I won't be loading from that end anyway as it is right against the fence. Now I guess I'll go get another ton of gravel tomorrow afternoon or Wednesday and do the whole bay. A ton of stone is only $28.62 so it won't break the bank yet.
Okay, more on the never-ending shed extension. I have never built a floor in a shed so welcome comments and especially those based on experiences (even though I may carefully consider your learned advice and head carelessly into the wild and do something else.)
Since now it seems I will be covering the whole bay with stone about 3-4 inches thick I will go ahead and put in a floor for the whole area instead of just a pad along the back wall as I originally planned.
My current wild hair (Hare?) is to take a bunch of locust posts I have accumulated over the years and saw them into 8/4 LE slabs and lay them on top of the gravel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3412.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675175674)
I would then lay/nail rough 4/4 boards on top perpendicular to the locust for a floating floor. The floor would not be connected to the shed anywhere. I'd probably line up the end and front but back where the slanted wall is would have a hodge-podge of ends which will not be seen anyway as they will be under some racks. The floor would mostly be poplar because that that is mostly what I have. I may even use us a stack of maple I have in outside storage as it is not a big seller for me and would clear up that spot.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3413.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675176137)
Next I would build the LE vertical racks along the end and back wall making some sort of redneck curve around corner which is pretty much going to be wasted space any way I build it. I'll wall in the end as I will not be accessing from there due to the pasture fence and even build a short wall on the end to protect the stored slabs from blowing rain and snow.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3414.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675176376)
I don't know what the life expectancy of rough untreated wood an inch or so on top of locust will be and how the floating floor will hold up. Your thoughts?
The front is about 12' wide - I might just build 2- 6' wide doors there and protect the whole bay from the weather. I suspect the design committee would like will like that as I'd have to buy hinges.
For what you are tying to accomplish, I think your idea should work out fine. BUT I would suggest putting down a sheet of durable clear plastic under the locust. Ground moisture evaporates constantly and even if you have piercings in the plastic here are there it will knock it down considerably and extend the life considerably. I am still amazed at how mine holds up and keeps the inside area dry.
If you can, borrow a power tamper to flatten out that gravel before you put the floor down. 4" isn't a lot and will vary because of your ground, but tamping will reduce settling later. We try to do around 6" here, but for your application and desired results, I think you will be fine. It's not like you will be using the space for entertaining or something.
That crushed stone is handy stuff. I think I used 8 ton for my storage area and only bought about 4 ton of it (I was in a hurry), the rest was leftovers from my son's jobs. The plastic and wood flooring were free and I just wanted to use them up.
Good luck, work careful, it'll get done.
I think if you google "permanent wood basement" you'll get a document that shows pretty much that method using treated. I should get a kickback, borate the wood or poison it (that will get us into a George Hamilton IV song :D).
What is a slab of concrete? a stiff carpet. What is a floor? Is it holding up the structure OR any structure. If not, this sounds better than green shag or brown mud.
I've debated leaving them 4"x4 and nail laminating it into a "2 way" slab with pole barn nails, battery drill and then you bang and bang till its done.
In the 60's Dad did some decks that had widely spaced beams and the deck surface was 2x4's or 2x6's up on edge with spacers between and then the next one, all nailed one to the next ,to the next. They now do it spaced or solid and call it nail lam or dowel lam or glue lam.
Don,
Good info but I am not trying to build a house or a permanent structure. I won't be buying any treated lumber for my build. Locust from my property is as close as I will be getting.
So you saw the word treated and stopped reading? Leave out the word treated and pay attention to the concepts. That is how to build various capacity floors using those methods. Flatways on sleepers, then heavier boards on edge or timbers nailed together as the load on the floor increases.
Don.
I dug a little deeper but I confess I did not go very deep before I got way lost in terms and descriptions and building codes and such that were way more technical than I was interested in. Here is the article I was reading.
Permanent Wood Foundations - InterNACHI® (https://www.nachi.org/permanent-wood-foundations.htm)
If you have "Wood floor for dummies" article that is more on point I'd love to see it. I did encounter the term "Sleepers" which sounds like a better term for the LE Locust 8/4 strips I was suggesting above.
BTW - I have to be very careful about learning too many new things because my mental hard drive is full and for me to learn something new I have to dump some memory and the memory dump may be something like my wife's birthday or such that is going to get me in deep trouble.
This is a little fancier than I was thinking but would spread the load out better than the floor directly on flatways sleepers, it'll stay flat longer having those 2x4 joists across sleepers.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/pwf.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1675220657)
Don,
Thanks for the illustrations. The one on he left side is most interesting to me. I can see where the extra height would help keep things drier with the extra ventilation under the actual floor. Instead of 2X4s I may use 2X2 strips to help keep the height down and reduce overall lumber needs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3415.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675287819)
I went over today and got another ton of gravel and got it unloaded and spread. It is pretty level but I may run a long board across it like finishing concrete to make it more perfect. I bought a roll of landscaping plastic for a moisture barrier but did not read the details and it is for weed control not moisture control so I'll take it back.
We'd evidently had some snow and ice last night and the higher I got the worse the road looked. I got up there okay but decided to take the interstate back even though it is 10 miles further. My son's next door neighbor's fence had been hit by somebody last night and broke off 5-6 posts and in one place 40-50 feet of guardrail had been hit but it looked like it saved them from running off the mountainside. Going down Sandstone Mountain on I-64 we saw 3-4 big rigs pulled over on the side of the interstate where they were not able to make it up the mountain. There was even one big wrecker pulled over. That stretch of road used to be and may still be famous as the 3rd largest killer of truckers in the USA.
We got home with no issues. My last 2 pieces of metal should be in tomorrow and I'll get them on and start sawing some locust sleepers and poplar 2X4s for framing.
Apparently we had ice on Whitetop but it was clear here.
Years ago I was in the slow lane heading up Sandstone Mt with the motorhome fully laden, all I could do was ride low gear. Halfway up my CB crackled, "Are you going up or backing down? :D" it was the truck behind me roaring up my rear with his flashers going. He blew by me in a 40 mph flash as I'm asking him to throw out a rope. 1433' in 4.6 miles.
Fancy Gap on 52 from here down into the piedmont of NC is another famously fatal stretch that is now closed to trucks with I-77 doing about the same route now.
I've never seen anyone level gravel with a screed board.
When I need to level gravel under a slab, I pull a mason's line across the area with a couple of line blocks that can be moved along the form boards, brick rowlock, or boards tacked in place.
Buy the Great Neck/Goldblatt G06991 2pc Wood Line Blocks | Hardware World (https://www.hardwareworld.com/pkzqy0p/2pc-Wood-Line-Blocks?gclid=CjwKCAiAuOieBhAIEiwAgjCvcqLZ4LGC3Hq-UjYH0xFl9iSdoijwMNYTJbOnRXIU8mmGt-uE3fjNXRoCb2UQAvD_BwE)
I judge the distance a hard toothed rake needs to stay below the line to get the thickness of the slab close enough, but you could pull the line the height of your rake.
I'm not good at drawing, like Don is, but if that's not clear enough I'll try to explain better.
Tom,
I am not pouring a slab just building a rough floor. I did think about placing a 1X4 like a form board along the sides but this does not need to be that precise for my needs. I can drag a board across the top to knock off the high points but its already pretty close.
Don,
My son lives about 1/2 mile from that mandatory truck pull off at the top of Sandstone Mountain there on I-64. The big issues I have on I-77 at Fancy Gap is the fog and sometimes it is pretty windy. They frequently have to close I-64 here at Sandstone during snow and ice and the National Guard sometimes has to bring the truckers MREs and water and even fuel to keep the trucks running to stay warm. Sometimes the trucks are stranded for days there.
I never had to climb Parham Gap out west on I-80 in the snow and ice but it was a strain in good weather in a big truck just because it was such a long constant grade.
Howard I have done sand with a screed to get a consistent slab after the pour, and even gravel, but it is more of a sight thing and often have to use a rake to move a small pile building in front of the screed. usually a 2 x 4 with small stake boards screwed to the top edge so it drops down between he form boards 3.5 inches. I have also stretched a string and gone off that with a landscape rake under the string.
You do need to retain that gravel or every step will walk it out of there.. locust timbers, boards against the posts and a few grade stakes, boulders, dead chicken, whatever will act as a gravel stop.
Back in the day when floors were dirt it was common, neccessary, to keep bringing in straw to keep yourself warm and dry. The doorway became a problem, the straw would try to spill out. You need a threshold.
Don,
Are you running for president of the design committee? :D You are certainly doing a good job of following the principle of spending other members money. ;) Now I see I need to cut an additional 44 linear feet of locust as a gravel retaining wall. ::) I guess that is cheaper than constantly replacing gravel. Thanks for the tip.
I've got to spend yours, she cut me off years ago :D
I just looked up the etymology of threshold. it was such a good, wives tale :D
Threshold « The Word Detective (word-detective.com) (http://www.word-detective.com/2009/03/threshold/)
Actually Howard Don is saving you time, money and aggravation. I forgot your uneven ground there and he's right. Even on my flat spots where I have my sheds I put in a 12-16" wide tamped and compacted section of stone that is tapered from the full pad height down to zero. Putting in stop boards is cheaper and quicker and will probably last longer now with less maintenance.
Threshold, I like that, never thought of it before now.
Tom,
Just because Don is right doesn't make it any faster, easier or less expensive to complete my project. ;) I conceded in my previous post that I will now need to saw 44' of locust for backing to prevent loss of the gravel. :( My big regret in hind sight is that I did not cut and place it before buying and placing the gravel. :-[ This particular spot is actually the most level spot on the whole shed.
Remember this started out as a 3' X 10' pad for a LE storage rack along the back wall and has now grown to a 120 sf rhomboid shaped floor.
Well I hate to sound a little like the politicians I would like to punch in the mouth, but Howard, you will be much happier when you see how it comes out and have a whole lot better setup for your slabs.
This is the the pain that is experienced when you open the gate for input, but in the end, you make the decisions and live with the result.
We haven't got to the good part yet, the one you like the most, when the job is all done and we start suggesting add-ons that will need a lot more work, provide no improvement, but look really cool and make us feel good. :D :D :D :D
Tom,
I already see the end result being much better than the original design. I had conceded in my mind I would not be able to store any slabs over 10' long and even that was shaky now I am confident I can store my 10' pieces and possibly even store some 12' slabs.
What started off as one rack along a new bay and only walling in 12' more on the extension looks like the entire bay will now have a gravel bed covered by a wooden floor, walled on 2 sides with a pair of wooden doors on the front. ::)
The upside of all this is selling one high end walnut slab or a couple of fireplace mantels and all my expenses will be recouped and my future labor will be greatly reduced.
If I weren't afraid it would rub off on the slabs or mantels I'd paint the whole thing purple. :D
I thin brown, like I use, would be better. It will look purple to you and brown to the rest of the world.;D
Well, my metal was a no-show this week. The lady said maybe next Thursday. :(
I pulled up a few scrappy locust posts and the crooked cut off from one of my poles. I figured I'd make some LE 8/4 sleepers for my shed floor and maybe get some gravel dam material off the edges/outer slabs. I grabbed a couple of pieces off my scrap slab pile from where I had squared up the poles and squared one side of them. The mud was not doing my blades any good but fortunately it is all small diameter cuts.
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Its a muddy mess out here at the crooked posts are 7-7.5 ft long and the pole remnant is about 10' long.
I cut several pieces of gravel edging and installed them on the edge of the new shed extension. I nailed them to the uprights and drove up a stake or two when I had to splice them. I filled in a gap or two with some other locust scraps. I did not try to completely level the pieces with each other like I were pouring a concrete slab or such but they a pretty level I raked the gravel around and was happy with the way it looked.
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I loaded the sleeper material on the back of my cart and brought them over to put in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3418.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675376238)
They won't win any beauty contests but I think they will work well for my plans. I had 3 pieces from the 10' and 8 of 7-7.5 foot pieces.
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I started placing them and the 10' pieces just fit the location on the wide end. I remembered I meant to put down a plastic moisture barrier so Tom doesn't chastise and say bad things about me so I stopped and will resume when I get the plastic down. I guess that is a project for tomorrow morning, weather permitting.
Looking good kid! Yeah, that plastic is gonna make a big difference in how everything last. I will be away from Friday to Sunday, but may just check in to make sure you a re sticking with the plan.
Take more photos, so we can put our stamp on it.
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I went to our local hardware store and got a 10X25 sheet of 4 mill plastic ($17.48 ), doubled it over the gravel so now I have 8 mils of waterproofing in place under my future floor.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3421.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675462246)
I laid my LE 8/4 locust sleepers on top of the plastic. I had to go cut up one more locust fence post to get enough to cover the area.
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I had a bunch of 2X2 ash strips left over from when I cut the 2X6 rafters used for the roof here so I placed them and nailed them on 16" centers to the sleepers. I still need to trim the ends and finish nailing as several are just tacked down to 4-5 sleepers. I went ahead and sawed up a 13' poplar and got 5 2X4s and one more 2X2 strip which matched perfectly for my needs here. That will give me enough framing for the back wall. I think I have plenty of 8' 2X4s to frame up the narrow end. When I finish nailing these strips down I will be ready to start nailing down flooring.
Well I have the do-dahs and suspect it is covid so I went and got tested. By the time I get the results I' be over it or have died from it I guess. Sore throat, dry cough, body ache, head ache and light headed. Of course some of those symptoms may be related to the 2X4 that fell on me yesterday. ::)
Anyway I started yesterday but finished the framing today. I used up some old 8" lag screws I have had laying around a long time.
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The next step is to start laying the floor or put the last 3 pieces of metal on depending on when it comes in and the weather. The 2X2 strips on the sleepers are the equivalent of the floor joists.
I like this floor and the Look of it as it develops, great photos. The concept is like the floor I'm now renewing in a log house from about a hundred fifty years old whose real downfall was mostly the result of varmits undermining the sleepers though yours is looking fairly varmit resistant.
Don,
All this flooring is new to me so we will see how it works out. I don't know what kind of varmints you have up there. I guess rot and bugs are what I have to worry about.
I assume from your description you will have to lift the cabin/log house and tear out and replace the flooring. What kind of sleepers are you using?
Right now I have about $175 invested in this extension and that includes $36 worth of nails I bought today. I still have about 18' of metal roofing and the screws on order. That is not including the poles and lumber I cut off my property.
Maybe new to you but the concept is old. A builder acquaintance told me once of a floor he'd restored in an old church with the sleepers embedded in lime that were well preserved after hundreds of years, with only minor damage at the ends. This was in The Netherlands where rot is a big problem normally. Maybe that's similar to your conditions.
My log house floor - "house" would be an exaggeration - is high and dry here in the desert, a condition I can appreciate for sure. The critters I suspect are pack, or wood rats, not to be confused with those low-land rats by any means, much more sympathetic in every way.
The floor I'm working on only extended to the inside perimeter, that or else the walls had shifted and fallen off the sleepers but I cleared out the floor prior to lifting the building.
My (very) tentative plan is to use split spruce half-rounds as sleepers, available locally, adze the undersides of the floor boards to equalize, and maintain a similar economy to yours, of course.
The main floors of old log homes here were usually independent of the walls.
Yeah, I guess that was the case and it's my plan also. The big unknown is on the ground, as above, piered, or ledgerd.
Will your log house rest on the sleepers in your new design or will you build back to the previous design.
I don't know where in the desert you are building but I did a project in the Gobi desert in Mongolia and they could not put power poles and such in the ground because the would quickly be eaten or rot off at ground level. The phone lines over there had a concrete post in the ground and they strapped a couple of bands around the pole to the concrete post.
I don't know how your wood will hold up in your conditions but I'd love to see pictures of the build and see how it works out.
Look, even here - Western Colorado - ideally everything wood would be elevated. The question is, is it worth it in such favorable conditions since, let's face it, elevating is a bunch of extra work, and maybe with a floor independent of the building it could be sensible to let downsides get dealt with down the line since any choice will outlast me and future generations should not be deprived of maintaining the traditions of the past. I'm kidding around , in a way, but in a way, not.
My progress is anything but continuous so be patient.
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Well, if you look at this thread you will see I never broke any speed records. :D :D Good luck on your project.
Looking through the thread it is your rate of progress's been so impressive. It could be that says more about me than you :).
But really, I leave off work on the place for the next months, besides, I can't get up on the mountain for wood with all the snow that's there, and will be till June. Which I'll take since it means plenty of water on the hay this summer. :)
I was up on this rickety ladder with a running chainsaw. It was windy and there was snow and ice on the steps. I turned around to saw off a limb and ... Oops. I think I'm in the wrong thread here.
I got a call my metal had come in. I told the lady I had covid and got the amount for the check and she said pull up beside the window and she'd send the guy out to load it and collect. I went over and did that. 18' of metal and a box of 250 screws were just under $86 so I now have about $260 invested in this extension.
I picked up my roofing, went and picked up my Covid medicine (Pavloxid Paxlovid), came home, fed the horse to keep him out of the way and put up the rest of the roofing. This new stuff was really slick and on the steepest angle of the build so I had to tie a rope to a sturdy fence post to lower myself down to put the screws into the nailers.
I cut off the extra metal angles off the back, trimmed off the extra length on the nailers and top plates and installed the last couple of feet of drip edge. I did have to get on a step ladder with a small chain saw to do this but it was secure and I stayed off the top step. :D
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I am now all dried in except for one more trip up to patch a few nail holes in the used metal. It is a hodge-podge of colors but it is dry and it was cheap.
I did slice the inside of my R thumb at the end of the job when I tossed a cut-off piece under the shed to go in the scrap metal bin. Gloves would probably have prevented that but it was so sharp it would have cut them too - just not as deep in the thumb if so.
Looking at it from this angle with the creek running by...Good thing you're not out here on the Left Coast. You get sited for water running off a material know to the state to cause cancer right into a waterway! ;) Actually, cutting wood is known to cause cancer in this state - the sticker on a piece of red oak closet rod said so! :-X
Nice to be done, looking great!
Thats why I dont live in California. Everything there causes cancer!
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 07, 2023, 05:24:49 PM
I was up on this rickety ladder with a running chainsaw. It was windy and there was snow and ice on the steps. I turned around to saw off a limb and ...
Howard, that's not funny! (ok well it's a little funny, OK, actually it was really funny but...) I put a lot of effort into clearing your record over on that other thread and you go an flaunt my efforts. Geez man! Do I have to drive down there and give you a counseling session out on the porch consuming a pot of coffee in the process. Geez man, just say "hey, I got a lot done, some of it was tough and I got a couple of bumps and cuts, but it's done and nobody died." How are we going to run your for office or something if you keep dissing on your reputation?
Yes it is about 20' from Madam's Creek. (So named because near the town of Hinton where the creek runs into the New River there was a popular house of horizontal refreshment that extended out over the creek, hence the people called it "The Madam's Creek.") In fact, in some of the pictures you can see an old green pitcher pump about 2' from the front end/corner pole I had mounted on a fence post with a flexible pipe with a foot valve in a deep hole in the creek below a big boulder. I used to pump to provide water to cows or calves temporarily penned in a lot there. We got rid of our cows and the lot fence has been down for many years so the pump no longer serves a purpose.
I suspect the normal WV organic material from the overhead trees and such that stick to the roofing serve as a natural purifier and water running off the roof of my shed into Madam's Creek is much cleaner than rain falling through the California smog. :D In fact I think I read where in blind studies normal rainwater in LA were determined to fail all known California EPA regs for carcinogenic compounds. ;)
Tom,
Since my Covid test came back positive and I am in quarantine I will have to delay the porch conference or we will have to do it on line to protect all attendees. Besides, I do not drink or even know how to make coffee so if your coming give me plenty of notice so I can study U-tube videos on how to make a pot of coffee. :D
Well I know you don't drink alcohol, but I was unaware you did not drink coffee. I will ignore my concern at this and just say, if the porch session becomes necessary, I will bring a pot and take care of it. It takes too many years to get it right and I have been the subject of folks who knew I drank coffee and did their best to figure out how it is made, bless their hearts. We don't need to add that kind of stress.
Excuses for the digression from the milestone of the completed roof, ( that must feel good standing in there ), but I wonder if you'd consider your floor a puncheon floor? I think it fits the definition.
Tom,
My wife drinks enough coffee for 2-3 families so we might con her into making an extra pot if we catch her in a good mood. (Come to think of it you might better just bring a thermos. ::) :D)
For clarification I have no religious or other prohibitions against caffeine or alcohol or such and get my caffeine fixes from Mt. Dew and quarts of unsweetened ice tea with lots of ice. (I know - most southerners love sweet tea but I drifted away from that track in my late teens.)
Back on my shed track my next step is to start on the floor. I think I will lay a long sheet (or two) of used roofing down as a square guide for that and start on the long end using up my stock lumber especially my slow movers like a stack of maple. That should go real fast.
I hate to admit it but in many cases I don't have a clear process in mind when I start these projects. If I waited till I did, I 'd never get them started. In other cases changes in mid build force me to come up with other ideas - like the floor in this case which went from a dirt floor to a 3' pad to a full floor.
To tell the truth that may be a personality trait (Defect?). For many years while working overseas I would meet my wife on my R&Rs in another foreign country. (For tax incentives I needed to stay out of the USA for set amounts of time so I called these subsidized vacations. I could either come home and pay the IRS or go see a new and exciting country - I'll send you a post card!) On those trips we would hire a private guide and hire a car/driver, some times a boat in the Amazon, and start out with a very loose itinerary and we'd drive/motor along and stop when we saw something unique and interesting and stay as long as it was safe. We'd find local guides that that got us local access. My free lance photographer wife bought a portable printer and we'd give pictures to remote tribesmen in Africa, Mongolia and the Amazon and that got us more access to unique places and events.
Quote from: DonW on February 07, 2023, 07:24:42 PM
Excuses for the digression from the milestone of the completed roof, ( that must feel good standing in there ), but I wonder if you'd consider your floor a puncheon floor? I think it fits the definition.
To me a puncheon floor is very widely spaced sleepers... like middle and ends across a cabin, and half logs hewn and notched over the sleeper logs and adzed smooth on the top.
The lime is not a bad idea. I did that under a very low farmhouse porch replacement not too long ago, hmm, ok 5 or 6 years flies by. Termites were active, the well was right there, hopefully it'll scorch anything crawling over it.
We had 2 local metal companies, the one with better dies also oiled the mess out of them and the metal. The company that ran old worn out dies and the fit wasn't as good, well you could also stay on your feet up there.
We bought a new coffeemaker, it was mislabelled, I don't know what its intended use was.
Don,
I would not consider my floor a "puncheon" floor if that is your question. If the sleepers were squared on one side (the top) and tightly fitted I think that would be a puncheon floor.
I think puncheon floors were made from split logs that were smoothed with an adze or such that were tightly fitted for a floor. I don't know how they steadied them unless they laid a bed of soft sand or loose gravel or such and pounded flush. Maybe a plank was nailed to each end to level them till they settled a bit.
Maybe others here with more experience in such can speak up.
I'll take the word of you and Don P since I think that flooring is heavily associated with your region and one definition I saw - omitting the material description -only loosely fits the floor as you've shown it till now. Thanks
Don't take my word for it as I don't know that I have ever seen one and never knew of anyone building one. I had read about them in old westerns and such but never the description. It did seem like the old novels would have a comment about "We'll add a puncheon floor in the future" so it seems they'd build a log cabin with a dirt floor just to get shelter and add improvements like a puncheon floor and glass windows and such later on when times got better.
Looks good Howard,anxiously waiting for pictures of finished floor.May be something I could use up here.
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First I tried @Tom King (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=25437) suggestion from 3 years ago on patching used roofing with a pop rivet. My 2 regrets are that I did not have and use a rivet gun back then and that I did not patch the holes before I put the roofing up as it would have been much easier to patch on the ground before installation. The few wasted rivets in what I cut off would have been pretty insignificant. I did this test on a piece of scrap (the one that bit me yesterday) then got on the roof and fixed the rest. Great tip. Thanks Tom even if belated use.
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Next I got 2 pieces of used roofing to use as a 4'X10' square to start my first floor board, a 1X8, so it was square with my outside 2x2 "floor joist". I lined the roofing up then measured from both ends and nailed it in place as my base of operation here.
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After that is was just grab a board off the stack, square up the best end on the RAS, put it in place and cut the other end off with my cordless 6-1/4" circle saw using the 2X4 outside wall framing as a guide. I cut them so they will butt up against the 2X4 and even ripped a 1X4 and screwed the 1X2 strip up against the bottom after I had several for a guide. This makes a shelf to brace that little short overhang. I put 38" of flooring down before this Covid kicked me in the butt. I was soaking wet with sweat and feverish and light-headed so I called it a day. I have about 10' more flooring and after 1 more 12' 1X6 then I should be able to start using my 10' stock. If I were any count I'd have finished this floor this afternoon as it is going up really good!
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This is my little 1X2 strip I installed to brace the approximately 1' overhang. It is simple but effective.
Just as a reminder, I use closed end stainless rivets, but I already had a heavy duty rivet gun capable of pulling a stainless rivet. They take a LOT more force to pop than other rivets, so you can't pop one without at least damaging a regular gun.
https://www.amazon.com/Closed-Sealed-Rivets-Stainless-0-188-0-250/dp/B07JR2ZNXM/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1ABQHVP8XHHOX&keywords=closed+end+3%2F16%22+stainless+steel+pop+rivet&qid=1675948116&sprefix=closed+end+3%2F16+stainless+steel+pop+rivet%2Caps%2C95&sr=8-3
I also use those rivets in a stainless gasketed roofing washer.
https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Bonded-Sealing-Neoprene-Washers/dp/B07L5T569J/ref=sr_1_3?crid=Z0TAG0L3D1TR&keywords=stainless+steel+roofing+washers&qid=1675948248&sprefix=stainless+steel+roofing+washers%2Caps%2C99&sr=8-3
Some of those still holding here for more than 20 years on recycled roofing metal on sheds.
A regular pop rivet is probably still better than just caulking a hole. I never found any kind of caulking that would last more than a few years on a dark roof in the Sun.
Tom, what kind/model/brand gun did you use? Just curious becuase I worked in that industry for a manufacturer making the tools for 16 years or so. We sold a huge variety of rivets that could be puled in our guns, even one with decorative snap on cover caps to use in truck upholstery. We sold deck rivets for tractor trailer decks, blind rivets for trailer bodies, and then the bigger lines for truck frame assembly and axle mounts. You need some good pull when you get over a 3/16 aluminum rivet. We had hand tools that would pull up to 1/4" without assist, then we had air over hydraulic tools (we called then pnuedraulic) that would got higher. The the bigger boys all the way to up 180,000# of straight pull force. Used those for RR track switching sections and fastening the fuel tanks on diesel locomotives IIRC.
Just wondered what you are using.
A Marson Big M for 3/16 rivets, and a Big D for 1/4" stainless rivets. I had a sailboat business in the mid '80's and they were leftover tools from that.
I don't even know if those guns are even still made now, but I expect they are. The Big D is like a pair of bolt cutters with a Beefy rivet gun head. The Big M is a long accordion type thing, so you push it about 18" to pull a 1/2" long rivet.
They're still made:
https://www.amazon.com/Marson-Unified-T-Rivet-Klik-Split-Nosepiece/dp/B014VGVW2S/ref=sr_1_2?gclid=CjwKCAiA0JKfBhBIEiwAPhZXD9wCLAvyWGBT22xoZ_Rin6TElohAESrY0nkEZcYmNMAh2jR-OITiaBoCPTcQAvD_BwE&hvadid=177779756565&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9009793&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=11117514434372985222&hvtargid=kwd-1604432081&hydadcr=8461_9883282&keywords=Marson+BIG+DADDY+Riveter&qid=1675952342&s=hi&sr=1-2
Looks like the Big M is off the market now. I expect it was a danger to fingers, but I'm used to it.
Yup! I know those tools. I may even have a Big M on the shelf in my shop not sure if it is straight air, or also uses oil, haven't looked at it in a few years. Just before I retired we cleaned out our engineering lab and we filled a steel skid cage with all the (brand new) tools we had that our competitors made, so I grabbed a couple before they went in the scrap haulers truck. ;D
Marson was a very big competitor for our lower end line (small products) and they would take our designs and find ways to make them cheaper with very good success. They made good tools, but they had a life and were tough to service when they wore out. Ours were pretty much fully rebuildable, but that came at an increased cost which only big commercial users would pay for high production. The Marson tools will last a very very long time and work well with occasional use, maybe a couple hundred pulls a month on average. Some of our clients pulled 15-20,000 rivets a day by comparison.
That big D tool you have is identical to the one we made and sold. I am not sure if it was our or Marson's design first, no matter, it works very well. But if you have to pull a few hundred 1/4" rivets with it, you will either have rubber arms or Popeye arms. :D For repair type work, it is a go-to tool.
Here is what I bought sold as a Marson Big M back then. It still works fine, and is the one I use on a roof. This one has pulled more than a few hundreds of stainless steel rivets. I had a Hobie Cat sailboat dealership in the 1980's, and a repair shop. I have spare jaws for them somewhere, but have never changed them.
The only 1/4" rivets I used were for replacing the 3/16's ones in corner castings that had wallowed the holes out, so the Big D hasn't done multiple hundreds, but still pulls strong when I need it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35437/IMG_4649.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1675964304)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35437/IMG_4650.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1675964340)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3431.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1675988670)
The deck is done! 8) 8)
I used up my stack of unsellable but useable for this purpose maple all except 1 - 1X4X8. You can see the watermarks on a lot of it where it was stored outside under old used roofing. It is solid but stained. Today was much slower than yesterday because of the maple. I had to splice several pieces and rip to width on my table saw in some cases. Because it was so much harder than the poplar I had started with that I had to pre-drill every nail hole. I trimmed an 8' poplar 1X12 to fit around and between the poles on the right. Then I used the trimmed off wedge piece on the left to add some more space there too.
Now I need to do a good clean up of all the cut off pieces of wood and see what I can use for birdhouses, short sawhorses, or to make my LE slab shelves which was the purpose for this whole shed extension, floor/deck, etc. Then I need to do a normal 50 hour (1300 actual) service on the mill and saw some 10' 4/4 boards for siding. Before I wall in this new bay I want to build my LE storage racks so access will be easier to build them.
I'm thinking I'll need to add doors on the front of this bay to keep the rain off the floor and LE slabs stored there. I'll check my stock but I don't think I have the heavy duty hinges and J-bolts. We have a hardware dealer who comes to our flea market with a good selection of such with good prices but Flea Market season is a couple months away. If I found a good deal on the hardware and track I could build a single sliding door but I'm betting I go with hinges and J-bolts. The heavy duty locust poles will support them. I can hang a temporary tarp till I get a door if I need to.
Today was a good day but this Covid kicked my butt and it was hard to keep on putting down one more board at a time till it was done.
After you sand the floor, how many coats of tung oil do you think you will use?
Then a good hard wax?
;) Looking great!
Won't the wax make it hard for the White plush pile carpet the design committee specified to stick to the floor? :D :D
No, you don't want carpet on the dance floor! :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3245.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1659749833)
That reminds me of this customer about 75 miles away. He had me come saw the timbers in this shed then when he got it in the air the wife decided it would be a great venue for their line dancing parties so he called me back on this case last year to saw some more timbers and beams for modifications and extensions as he still needed a place to store his equipment. :D
Looks good Howard. I need to update my old lumber shed.Wood floor would be nice.
Bill,
I still have the walls, doors and racks to build but for less than 3 weeks from the start I am real happy with this and these are observations I have noted so far:
Lessons Learned:
1. Don’t wait – if you’re going to build something build it. Assemble a reasonable list of materials and get started. You can cut or buy more materials as needed but if you wait for every piece you may need, you will never start.
2. You can never have too many ladders – they are handy for holding up materials in place and if you have them in strategic locations you don’t have to keep moving them back and forth.
3. Don’t forget to remove your nail apron before you go pee (I don’t know how that got in here)
4. If building with used roofing, repair old nail holes before installation using the Tom King pop rivet process.
5. For a gravel bed under flooring build your form work/backing to hold the gravel in place before putting the gravel down.
6. If hauling gravel in a flat bed trailer simple sides can be quickly and effectively built using scrap 2X4’s for corners and wide 4/4 boards for side boards – the weight of the gravel will push the sideboards against the ends and sides stabilizing them.
7. Live edge locust, or other durable wood, cut into 8/4 sleepers laid flat on plastic covered gravel works well.
8. 2”X2” strips nailed on the sleepers as “Floor joists” are easy to install using 16d nails or long screws nailed/screwed from above. (Note: Time will tell if more height and more air flow/ventilation would have improved the longevity of the floor.)
9. A couple of pieces of roofing or a sheet of plywood makes a very good square if you need to square up one end and one side of the floor on a badly out of square structure.
10. Running the floor all the way to the wall and out past the “joists” added significant floor space (12+ sf) in this case.
11. Using unsellable rough boards was a great way to get some value from it and helped clear up some space and another stacking pallet.
It looks great Howard, an you are going to love hearing your feet stomp on that floor. Maybe you could take up clogging and maximize the enjoyment? :D
I missed the meeting about the carpet and the tung oil so I will stay out of that. It's come along way from what you proposed and I hope the committee got you to a better end than you originally had planned. As I recall, it was a dirt floor? Yeah, I could read back, but it's late and I'm tired. All I know is you look to be in great shape for your desired storage.
Now lets talk about the type on insulation you are putting in the walls.......
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 09, 2023, 09:32:30 PM2. You can never have too many ladders – they are handy for holding up materials in place and if you have them in strategic locations you don't have to keep moving them back and forth.
Yeah. Every time I see a free ladder on CL, I jump on it. Rough count, Step: two 2', two 4', three 6', two 7' (combo step/extension), three 8' (one is combo), Extension: two single sections 12', one 12' (6' sections), two 24', three 20' sections (messed up my 40' extension :( - snow damage). I'm still collecting!
Tom,
I confess I think I will get much more use out of this wood floor than I would have out of the original dirt or even the 3' pad. I have learned a lot from the process. I can still honestly say "I am no carpenter and I can prove it!" :D
I think the committee canceled the insulation plan because it interfered with the ventilation. :D
John,
I picked up a 6' stepladder and a 12-14 ft extension ladder for about $10 each last year at a big yard sale. Money very well spent.
Well I suppose we could ditch the insulation, good ventilation makes sense. But let's talk about paint colors. I know you are partial to purple because you talk about it a lot .....
i suggest a celebration.
https://ia802503.us.archive.org/10/items/video_20220722/Video.MOV
I have 3 extension ladders, 20' 24' and 32'. the 24'er got quite a workout today with probably 20+ trips up and down to run wires on the 16' high trusses in my building. My neck is now stiff from watching the guy use it.
I started on my LE slab rack and basically have one section pretty much built now. I may add one more 30" crossbar on the outside edge of it.
I need to either rip some stock 2X8s or go ahead and cut a few 10' 2X4s out of a poplar log I have bucked and resting in a run-off about 250 yards from the mill but first I need to drag my weary butt out there and so a service on the mill.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3438.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676155667)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3439.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676155690)
The rack is about 30" wide X30" deep and a little over 11' tall. It is lag screwed to the corner upright and the framing to the back wall. The 2 tall 2X4 uprights are lagged to the 2X6 rafter above which makes for a rock solid connection.
The design committee would sure like to see some diagonals on those walls, triangles brace things.
If you will look back at replay 193 that should give an idea what the plan for the finished wall should be. I am surprised there is any concern about strength or ricking here when you look at the size and amount of framing material used in this build.
Must be a new guy, I'm always saying add more :D
Vertical and horizontal is not braced tho, triangles are... immutable.
Uhh, yeah, I just looked back, not a single brace in the building that I see.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/shed_with_extension_2-2-16~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1505819267)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_0359~8.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676166955)
Are you saying they should look like my other lumber shed or my woodshed as shown above?
Basically, that is best, but some single diagonal boards well attached inside between girts would work fine. 4 sides or more is flexible. When everything is vertical and horizontal the building leans over time. When you brace it into 3 sided "frames", triangles are fixed, you lock things.
I might can swing an angle or two between the girts. I think the Statute of Limitations has run out on the rest of the walls which are just battenless B&B.
I don't get too excited about outbuildings, you are awake and on your feet.
Important structure is a little different. A kid wrote in on another topic, thinking about going into the trade. I mentioned forging chain, he'll understand later. There is no statute of limitations. Legally there is but not really. I hear about a storm, the first thought is what have I built nearby and how did they fare. The test can be the week after I leave, or never, roll of the dice.
I finished a service on my mill today then found I did not have filters for my oil change so I' called my local dealer and should have them tomorrow or Wednesday. I resumed work on my LE slab bins and that is going real smooth.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3440.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676329845)
I installed 7' poplar 2X4s as uprights and lag screwed them to the framing (Girts?) so they are real solid. I nailed 1X4's as cross pieces between the bins. These bins are on 2' centers and 2' deep.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3441.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676329839)
On the short end I have 2 bins about 30" wide X 30" deep and can store 10-11 ft slabs there. I have the one odd shaped corner bin I'll use as it works out.
I need to cut 6-7 more uprights 10' long to connect to these crosspieces. I'll tie them together with a long 1X4 on top and tie them in to a rafter or two for extra stability. Then I need to nail down some short 2X4s as shown on the bottom right to keep the slabs from kicking back when stood on end.
Then the hard part begins - moving all the slabs from their current storge places to here. It will be an interesting inventory once that is done as I will have much better feel from what I have on hand. All this started with the sister thread below.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=121129.0
Assuming you are standing those slabs up on end, and I think that's your plan, those lower struts sticking out won't support anything unless you have shorts. All the weight will land on the top struts and it can build up. ;D Also, just thinking out loud here until the rest of the committee assembles, you may want to screw some straps down to the floor so that the slabs edges will rest on those and not the floor. It promotes airflow and keeps water from wicking up if the rain blows in, also, if sawdust and junk builds up on the floor it keeps the slab edge out of that too. Any old leftovers and inch or more thick will do the job. Just a thought.
What color purple are you gonna paint it?
Tom,
I assume what you are calling the struts are the short 1X4's nailed perpendicular to the upright 2X4s. I realize on most slabs they will not be touching. They are there to nail to the next, taller, outside upright to keep them properly spaced. I do have some 3'-4' slabs and they may rest against them. If I have too many shorties I may build a shelf across those 1X4s and reinforce under them on the uprights and stack 2 levels of them.
I am not following the need for the "straps? on the floor. (Is that supposed to be Strips with that NY/Noggie spelling? ) I don't expect water to blow in as I will wall in the back once I am done building these bins. I have left the back open so far for access to the framing which is working great right now but I will close it in soon.
If you are concerned the weight of the slabs will punch a hole in that 1" poplar or maple floor I can't imagine that. The "joists are on 16" centers and even less along that back diagonal wall. I'm expecting to be storing 8' or less slabs along that long side and the heavy, longer pieces will go in the short end in those 2- 30" bins. I am expecting the slabs to be tilted and just touching the floor on a fairly small corner.
You are not seeing it in most of these pictures but above that middle 2X4 framing (Is that called a girt?) is the 2X12 header or 2X6 crosspiece on the end so anything much over 7' will be resting against that.
I think my leaf blower will easily remove any sawdust or leaves that blow in so am not expecting a problem there.
I have not planned on painting any of this but if I do I can do like you did and just buy a big can of the "No Trespassing" purple and use what is is leftover to paint my property lines. I may just paint the ends of my rafters as they are the most at risk.
Yup, a "wall purlin" is a girt, wrapping the girth of the building.
If the girts are bowing out under load run some of those short studs up to the roof beam.
What roof beam? Are you talking about what I have been calling the top plate? The 2X12 between the corner uprights? The ones the 2X6 rafters are toenailed into?
I could see overloading could cause the back wall to bow out. I could add more 2X4's between the existing girts or pull a chain or cable but all the weight would still be on the uprights.
Right now the weight is on girts that are flat to the load as I'm seeing it. If the studs run from floor to roof "points of lateral support", they are oriented deep to the load rather than flat to it, and they are shorter than the girts.
With this load leaning on the structure, those diagonals are becoming more needed.
My shop floor sighed today. I think ~a half ton of metal is on the truck. I have let the magic out of an impressive number of engines, motors and tools over the years. And apparently saved them all :D.
Don,
Another easy option would be to add 2X6's on the inside of the uprights. I would lose 7-8 inches of thickness but I am confident I have it to spare. I could add as many as I needed to make a really thick, never-bow wall back there. I could even turn a 2X6 on its side to make a real sturdy brace.
I missed something. Aren't you loading your slab so you will be viewing the edges? So you, or a prospective customer, can "leaf" through them until you find the right one? I had suggested a while back to add a board in the front (which looks like you did) so the slabs will want to rock back against the back wall rather than fall out front, like tipping a book off a book shelf in the library. The weight of the slabs should be leaning left and/or right on each of your separator 2x4s, very little if any on the back wall, correct?
The only thing I would consider is either putting a gusset where the 2x4 attaches to your upright and girts OR adding another upright in the front tying into a rafter and the floor. Never mind, I just looked again. The straight on shot hid those extras you already put in. If you have slabs that are almost vertical and leaning on both sides of your separators, life should be good.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 13, 2023, 08:19:45 PM
Tom,
..... I am not following the need for the "straps? on the floor. (Is that supposed to be Strips with that NY/Noggie spelling? ) I don't expect water to blow in as I will wall in the back once I am done building these bins. I have left the back open so far for access to the framing which is working great right now but I will close it in soon.
........
Nope, not concerned about weight or structure with that remark. I was thinking of the quality of your slabs going forward. When the edge sits on the floor it collect moisture and traps'junk' like dirt, sawdust, bark, whatever, over time. This will hold moisture and lead to rot or degrade. tacking down to parallel runners for the slabs to sit on, keeps them off the floor and you can run a leaf bower once a year (or more) to keep the floor clean and the slabs will last longer. Don covered the structural issues I saw quite well, so I let that go. Whatever you do, it will work out over time and you will make adjustments as needed.
John,
I think we are talking the same thing here but the (valid) concern is the amount of weight that will be leaning against the back wall which could cause it to bow outward. In an extreme case the whole back wall could just fall outward. I will have to see how much weight is actually going to be there. Anything 8' and taller will be resting on the top plate which can hold much more weight without bowing.
Tom,
I will look into the parallel strips. They are like chicken soup - they can't hurt and they might help.
Normally suggestions of this nature from the design committee come with a material specification such as some super rare exotic hardwood that naturally repels insects and moisture, is outrageously expensive, and can only be purchased from a handful of importers, the closest being through a specified dealer in north Alabama and after installation the grain pattern would start to come out with hidden laser engravings with insulting phrases such as "Roll Tide". :D
After another sleepless night after the Design Committee had me having nightmares of my whole back wall falling out ::) I am playing with the idea of installing 3-4 long 1X4s on the front edge of the existing 2X4 uprights. Also I will install a 1X4 on its edge screwed to the downslope side of the long 2X4 uprights still to be added. That will stabilize the top and prevent it from moving down in the direction of the weight. The new 1X4s on the current uprights will shift more of the weight to the rack and off the wall. I'm thinking this would pretty much make this a free standing rack just attached to the rear girts.
The additional crosspieces to the current uprights will only cost me 4" of depth which I have to spare. I have plenty of 1X4s and I'll rip a couple for the strips discussed earlier.
Well, I got out and piddled on my shed a little today and used up the 2X4's I cut yesterday. All my uprights are in place and I started on the little 2X4s on the floor between them to keep the slabs from kicking back. I still have a couple to install. I need to move a slab or two over as a pilot and to see where to put my OGH strips.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3445.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676507224)
This is the back side. The bottom of the 2X12 top plate is about 7'8" or so. I did not add my 1X4s I last talked about and as solid as this feels so far I may not add them along this wall. Weight on that back wall is also supported by the tall uprights which are braced to the ceiling/rafters above.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3446.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676507524)
This is a shot of the bins on the end. This is where my 10' slabs and fireplace mantels will be stored.
The load path is a maze but through a dozen scattered connections there sorta is one :D.
Several years ago I, and thousands of others on multiple forums watched in awe as a gentleman built a shed and a neighbor posted pictures that were reposted, pretty much everywhere with armchair quarterbacking from all over the country. Of course the gentleman was unaware of his fame. I think we're famous :D.
Don,
Maybe I am dense but I don't know what that means. Is there a link I am missing somewhere? ??? ???
I'm not looking :)
???
popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley
Its all good.
That picture would be a good lesson for a young carpenter.
How would you stiffen those girts against a likely lateral load?
One way would be to run posts from floor to roof connected to the girts. The roof and floor planes are points of lateral support.
The load path shown does accomplish the same thing in a roundabout way. The inboard posts do run full height, as they also should, then the horizontal arms connect to and stabilize the short? studs that are in turn connected to the girts. By this path if something is leaning on a girt is that force resisted. What you are doing works but is a connection filled long way around of getting there.
It's not the Taj Mahal, it is a relatively temporary shed and it will work. Part of what I do and I think we should do is try think about the better ways to do things as well. In this case, I'd have run full height studs on all the rack verticals, When slabs start banging around it has potential.
All of this assumes you brace the building itself.
I'm no carpenter and I can prove it. ;) (I am also no architect or engineer.)
My bins on the back wall are about 2' square. The back "girts" if that is what the horizontal 2X4 framing is called, are lag screwed to the 7' vertical 2X4 uprights which are nailed/connected to 2' 1X4s to the tall, more to the center of the floor, upright 2X4s which will be braced against the 2X6 rafters above. (If it came down to it those uprights would also serve to help protect against a heavier snow load.) Weight against the back wall is also pulling on the taller uprights. I may add more 1X4 between the uprights for support and to keep short slabs stored there from falling between the bins. I suspect the most weight would be on that 3rd horizontal 2X4 but anything over 7'8" won't touch it and will be resting on the 2X12 top plate. When I finish with the bins I'll install 1" thick siding which will connect the top plate and all 3 horizontal girts/2X4s below which should add some more marginal stiffening and support.
I'm betting it all holds together and am willing to bet my $260 or so invested in this build that it does.
Someone has looked 10,785 times, I hope one of those sets of eyes is one step closer in how they look at structure :).
I would not bet against you :D
It has been drizzling rain all day so I have not gotten much done. I went out to feed the horse and finished putting down my short anti-kickback floor plates. Only had 2 left to finish. Then I nailed up an 8' 1X4 against the top of the long uprights. They are nailed to the 2X6 rafters and will keep the tops from pulling down against the weight.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3448.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676580628)
I brought over a 6' Walnut slab and stood it in place as a test then ripped a 10' 1X4 and put down my OGH floor strips. I can already see the angle of the cut on the slab will affect how much use they provide. This slab is resting on the 2X4 at the back and the upper girt. There is not much weight on that girt. I will have to install a cable, chain or rope or some system on the back to keep the slabs from tilting over backwards toward the opening.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3447.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676581064)
It was a good chance to check the roof for leaks. The new build is completely dry but I noticed a drip over in the original build area. I will have to get up there and do a TK repair on it pretty soon. It was too wet out to try to move more slabs today. I'll move another handful in a day or two then probably I'll put the wall up after that. Then a door on the front to keep the rain and snow from blowing in. I may put a temporary weatherbreak up using a piece or two of used roofing.
One unexpected development is I now have to figure what to do with the excess space. This rack is not taking up much more than 1/4 of the new floor space. Now what will I do with all that extra space? :D I bet I find something to use it for. ;)
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 16, 2023, 04:07:11 PMOne unexpected development is I now have to figure what to do with the excess space.
Make more slab racks in the middle!
John,
I will see how full these racks are then if I need more space I would build on the back side making a big U shape. There is 10' of space available back there which would still leave the front open to load and unload and still have a big open area. I have 2 locust uprights there I could nail some framing to like on the end and build on that.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3445.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676507224)
The next available area is on the left side of this bay. It is 10' wide from front to back and the height is actually more than current area. I think my current max height is about 11' and on this side it would be 11.5' or more at the front sloping to about 8' at the back.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3449.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676765561)
Snow and bad weather yesterday prevented me from from getting anything done but today was pretty nice so after a run to town I came home and in the afternoon went ahead and changed the oil in my sawmill then started installing fresh cut poplar along the back wall of my extension.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3443.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676412262)
The boards are on the left, the 2X4s on the right are already installed as uprights. I used up all the wood I had cut from the log I got my last 10' upright 2X4s. At the end of the day I had put up 9.5' running feet of wall and it looks like I have 3' more along this wall them 8' on the end.
I'll check a couple of logs I have still in the woods. One 10" X 9' log would finish the back side. I have some 10' and 12' 4/4 poplar boards in stock and may have enough to finish the end. Since it slopes from front to rear I'll have to cut each board a different length. Then, or before, I need to move the slabs into the bins.
After that I will have to address either a door or a tarp or something close in the front. I'll probably just build 2-6'X12' doors. Once that is done I'll wait a year or so and see if I need to add battens. Based on the existing walls I probably won't need them.
looks great Howard.
Yeah, walls are fun to put up because they go up so quick. Slap an 8" wide 9' board up there and zap. another 6 square feet of coverage with about 8 nails into soft poplar boards and framing.
I am loving my 20V cordless Braun (HF) 6.5" circle saw. I cut everything today without having to change or charge the battery. A customer I sawed mobile for last year had one we used to cut stickers off the edgings and to trim wane off boards and flitches and I had to have one and have had no regrets with it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3451.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676850935)
I nailed up the wall on the end till I ran out of 8d nails. In fact the last 2 boards I put up only have one nail each holding them in place and the last 2 were nails I found on the ground - one I had to straighten. I have less than 5' of wall space left to finish and plenty of lumber in stock to finish it.
I did a police call and picked up the cutoff boards and trimmings. The small ones I bagged for kindling and the others I'll use for birdhouses and such of they are big enough. The 2X I will use to make short sawhorses for stacking if they are long enough.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3453.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676851311)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3452.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676851316)
I went ahead and started stacking slabs. The ones at the back are mostly 5' on the left to over 8' on the right. On the extreme right are several very big walnut slabs up to 40" wide and some weighed up to 300 lbs when I first had them cut on a Lucas slabber 3 years ago next month. I have 2 left to stack and one is 4.5" thick and weighed nearly 600 lbs when first cut. I think there are 35 slabs stacked there so far.
One distressing discovery is - this rack is not big enough. ::) I doubt I have 1/3 of my slabs stored so far and none of my fireplace mantels yet.
I see I am going to have to run framing from the upright on the left to the one across from it - about 13' with height from 9' to 11'+ and build another set of bins there.
Looks good Howard,I have a 10'x14' section in my shed I am planning to build a floor and racks in if I can ever get the lumber out of it.I cut some pine for a fellow last summer and he paid me for it but wanted to let it dry awhile.It's all 1" thick and pretty dry so I think it's time for him to come and get it. I don't have nearly as many slabs as you have but I'm getting hooked on making benches and need a place to put some slabs to dry.Your racks look like they will work out good.
It looks like enough floor space for a sort of two sided island of racks. I realize I am not part of the design committee so if you want drawings you will need to put in a request with them. ;D
gspren, I think you just joined the committee. :D
Howard if you put a rack along the left side from back to front, which is what I think you are planning, that will still leave you room in the center where you could make a sawhorse workbench to work on making your benches, but is easily movable out of the way for other stuff. You could also hang down a deep shelf from the rafters to lay some smaller stuff up there and oddball lumber. I like to use the overhead room as it is free space most of the time.
It is looking good so far and that floor really looks nice. Bet you're happy with that, you should be!
Committee input: No, I think you should enclose the front (no need for a door) and run a rack there where you have the maximum head room. Then, install a double sided rack parallel to the front. You can then enter from inside the shed to all this storage space that is weather tight!
John makes a great point and that front rack would give you the most space. As for the double sided center rack, I think that would depend on how much storage space you need. If you still have slabs after building the front rack, build out in the center as John suggests, if not, use the center as workspace.
Bill,
Everything I stored there has been cut from 3-4 years so it is as much air dried as it is probably going to get. Good luck on the upgrade. I have learned a lot building this floor and am loving it so far.
Tom,
I will start with the 3rd row of bins making a U shaped. I have even thought about making a shelf/floor on 1-2 of the bins and store short slabs on 2 levels. You can see the last bin on the left has about a 4' slab. I have several even shorter which as fine for making 3' benches and such.
In moving these slabs I re-discovered several cherry slabs that were screaming to become benches. I suspect that will happen in the near future. I may keep a pair of short sawhorses there in the center to stage slabs on if I don't use that area for something else.
gspren,
That is in the back of my mind that I could make a back to back rack as an island in the middle of the area there if I need to do so. That is a last ditch effort as that open area is awful handy. Right now I and loading the slabs on my forks and I can extend them over the middle of the floor and stand them up and place them in the appropriate bin. I had thought about separating by species but so far I have only stored walnut and cherry and height is over riding species for storage decisions.
John/Tom,
That is an excellent idea! The down side is access to load and unload now would have to come from the next door bay which means I have to adjust what I store in there accordingly. Now I have to just weigh the pros and cons but is a great idea because that is my tallest height area and I would not have to buy door hardware. (Wait - this is a first isn't it? A committee decision that saves instead of spending money? :D :D) I could still add a back to back island if I need to - I'd just rotate it 90 degrees.
WV
Likely now that you know how good having a floor is, you will also do that to the bay next "door".
Then the enclosed new bay will be much handier to use for the slabs.
Well I guess accidents happen sometimes. You need to decide what works for you and your operational flow. (John, don't look, but I think you just lit Howard's lightbulb ;D) Of course Howard, you might not need that center island rack. I think having flat dry floor space for a foldable bench would allow you a place to work when it is snotty outside and leave things to dry overnight, etc. . Could you not, now that you have this space, build a rack on the back wall of the original shed? I would suggest getting a comfortable chair and setting it where you can see the whole layout while having a beer or cup of coffee and figure out what you want. But I know that you drink neither of those things, so get whatever it is that you do drink for relaxation and stare at it for a while and work through each of the options. Don't be hasty. I do this all the time and it does take time to 'get in the zone'. ;D But it also does work to get me where I want to be.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 19, 2023, 08:45:10 PM....(Wait - this is a first isn't it? A committee decision that saves instead of spending money? :D :D)......
It might be, but we aren't quite done yet. This is just the next stage. :D :D :D
BT,
Thanks. I have been thinking about that. I'd have to stairstep it down because of the slope but that should not be a stopper. In fact I noted some more locust trees down I could use for sleepers.
One problem to overcome would be a front door to keep rain and snow from blowing in on the board floor.
Tom,
I don't have power to that shed or any good way to add it so using it for a work shop is pretty much a non-starter for now.
My original shed drops off to the creek 20' below about 3' behind it so I can't go in that direction.
Yeah that was a committee oversight and I am sure all are diligently working to correct that oversight. :D
Well, you have battery tools, they can go a long way. But since you've brought it up, perhaps one of those quiet 3KW generators for the shed would be just the ticket! You have lighting and tool power besides. We can talk about lighting later. But I think we are back on the budget track again. ;D
Tom,
You are redeeming yourself very nicely here - gensets, lighting, where is 380v power plan? Rip up the wood floors and put down concrete, etc. :D :D
Nah, that would be frivolous overkill and silly. I am thinking of your needs and growth only. Really.
wait wait wait wait! Where is the environmental impact report from the consultant concerning the aforementioned project?
well a second story is the obvious solution with the roof oriented to the south for solar, when it becomes mandatory and solves all of our energy problems. I am sure don can show us how to scab onto rafters to make then floor joists, with some glue and screw tech. Prob. needs an elevator as Howard is getting up there, and a sun deck above all that to watch the bluebirds, and deer, squirrel and racoons, and such. I think a tether for a zip line to get to the house in a hurry around supper time after a long day at work. :) :) :)
So now I have to install an Anemometer to check and verify predominant wind direction and velocity so we can install a wind turbine then the various animal rights groups will be after me for the bird strikes killing rare migrating trumpeter swans (Who were lost anyway) and I am sure someone will decide they cause cancer. ::)
I went to the local hardware and got more nails, came home and finished putting up the wall on the back and end so that is done. I went back out and moved some more slabs to empty the add-on storage from my original hay barn. In the process I completely filled the back bins and even had to stage a few 6' slabs on the end where I have plans to store my fireplace mantels.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3455.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1676932564)
The bins at the back are stacked tight and are completely full as is the corner bin. I counted 60 slabs so far and probably have that many or more up on shelves and such. My next move will be to move the mantels to the bin on the right. After that I have to decide whether to build an island rack in the middle or frame in and make bins on the front.
popcorn_smiley popcorn_smiley
What's on the back wall in the next bay? Or, I've built stuff in before. I think the driveshaft of one of my old trucks is still framed into the wall, stuck behind my workbench :D.
You drive by a kiln, but what do you do when it gets home?
Maybe it's time to have a sale and trim the slab inventory down a bit. 15% off the normal slab price, a few red tag specials, 35% off a bench if you buy a slab. Come on down folks! It's a Slabapalooza at Howard's Slabatorium! I'd give 'em away but my wife won't let me!
Don,
The back walls on the next 2 bays have shelves about 1' wide up about 6' high and I store crates and cookies and such on them. I had briefly considered removing the shelves, adding a floor and putting in bins there too. The overall height of that back wall gets shorter as you go to the left/uphill. I remember commenting earlier on the original build that was a mistake when I cut the corner post off as that cost me height for all the rest of my shed. Two feet taller there would have increased the whole shed height that much.
The next bay has the mantels and a few odds and end so I am fixing to remove the big items there anyway. Removing the shelves and adding a floor and building more bins would not be impossible. I will check the heights and such. I lose about 6-7 inches of height with the floor. I might could excavate a couple of inches once I clean it out. The first thing I had to do for all of this was the new bay/extension to give me the working room.
btulloh,
Yeah I thought about a sale of some sort and I need to re-look at a couple. I will probably scrap a couple and may cut 1-2 into strips for bench legs.
Well, I have been studying on it and I think I will just put in 2 more locust uprights on the front wall of my new extension and instead of 2- 6' doors like I had discussed I will build one 5' door in the middle and wall off on both sides of it. I figure the door will be about where current bin ends then I can build another bin about 4' wide on the opposite side for tall storage. We last discussed walling it in and using that for storage but I think it will be much easier to load and unload from the front and have other plans for the adjacent bay.
I think I will remove the shelf on the back wall of the next bay and extend the current floor on over into it and build bins there too. In fact, between the the bays I can build back to back bins that share a lot of the same framing. I'll dig out a little to help keep the floor straight and I can use the backing on the existing floor to hold the gravel on the next bay for one side so I only need to build backing for the other three sides. Putting it in ahead of time will make the whole process faster and easier. What I learned from the last build will pay big dividends on the next one.
Right now I am thinking about leaving the middle areas open instead of building bins there. Using the next bay should give be enough bins along the walls.
I moved 9 fireplace mantels today and now I am out of space with 5 more 4" thick mantels to stack. Some of those mantels weighed a couple hundred pounds. I was able to stand them on end and walk them into place.
That was your 14,000 post :)
I can't help, surely everything would fit on the racks with a bundle or two in the middle.
I think I moved 8 bundles to get to 2 slabs. The museum needs to go :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10017/shedful.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1677028506)
Don,
My customers must be coming to see you too. My customers always want the board on the bottom of the stack.
A middle bin in the middle of the new floor/bay would still not provide enough storage for what I have already cut. I'll use the open center space for benches and such and some of the small things like crates and birdhouses can be stored on the shelf spaces I just vacated.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3469.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1677448360)
I trimmed this upright, dug the hole and installed it in the front of my shed extension. I will build and hang about a 5' door to it. The cross pieces all came off a scrap 4' poplar cut-off I had laying by the mill. Why waste it? I will nail some 12' uprights her to stop any rain or snow from blowing in on my new live edge storage area.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3471.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1677537579)
It was drizzling rain most of the afternoon so I could not saw anything so I went over and dug another hole and erected the other pole leaving space for a 5' door I'll hang from the pole I put up yesterday. I got the pole up. tamped tight and plumb and got an 8" lag screw through the upright into the 2X12 header above so it is rock solid already. I think I'll put 8' framing up to cover the front of this bay and for the next side which I also plan to floor and add LE slab bins along the side and end. I even nailed up a couple of 1X6s on the framing from yesterday. I need to cut more before I can finish walling that in.
Not a lot done but its like peeing in the ocean during a drought - every little bit helps.
Where's the stovepipe going?
Straight over the stove - when I get one. :D
Howard, the organization of your slabs is impressive. I may do a special shed for that purpose. I tend to lean them against the wall in my shop, and the walls are bowed out half inch in those placed. I tend to keep leaning the next, and the next. near catastrophic at times trying to look at or pull out a back one. this makes them accessible and take the forces off the wall. I have to give you an A+ on the results.
Doc,
Thanks but the design came mostly from John with input from several others. I am happy with the way it is turning out.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3478.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1677628559)
I had a few minutes at the end of the day and I finished walling in the front corner with the 4/4 poplar boards I cut today. I had one 1X6 and one long 1X4 when I finished and a few shorter ones that will go on the next floor. Tomorrow I plan to move the rest of the stuff in the next bay and start on a floor for it. I plan to put bins along the back wall and the side and leave the center open unless I need that extra space but I think I won't need vertical storage there.
I had a little tinge of "buyers remorse" after giving you a well deserved compliment, so I have to ask, can you put the whole thing up on your mill to trim the bottom edges of the panel boards, so they are all even? ... ? :) :) :)
great work, and as is often the case, a group effort on thoughts of design. satisfying for us that are in the middle of a work week and cannot execute our own next thought of project.
Again A+
Doc,
I admit I was a little rattled as my system can't handle good news very well - since I get so little of it. ::) :D
I still have to go get a couple more locusts for uprights to the next bay and install them, finish the floor in the bay, figure out what sizes and how to hang the doors and such.
Been away a bit and come back to 4 to 5 pages of added input, design modifications and construction upgrades. Great job from the design committee, the construction consultants and the execution of the their input by the owner/operator! I'm tired from reading, nap time!
I keep chipping away. I emptied the next bay today which included making a box to store some short walnut and moving the 5 - 4" thick fireplace mantels I still had to store. I got the tractor bucket and blade in there and cleaned down to bare dirt. I trimmed 2 locust poles and dug one hole but did not get much deeper than 1' before I hit big rocks so I cut the pole off and set it on the rock.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3481.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1677713192)
I nailed one 2X4 from this new door post to the next door post with the corner post to the bay in between. I also nailed to the 2X12 header above and it is resting against a 2X6 rafter so it is stable even though in a shallow hole. I'll add more framing later but will probably build some "form work" to hold gravel and add that next.
No picture (but I am pretty sure it happened ::)) because it was dark when I left.
I went out and was going to install another upright on my shed. I had cut the locust upright yesterday and had it ready but I realized the opening is only 6'. I ended up moving the upright yesterday over because I hit a rock and such. I had planned on a 5' door but decided I could hang it on the existing uprights and just make it 6' wide and leave out the extra upright so that is the current mod (subject to change tomorrow when I go back out ;)). I put down some locust trimming to make a "form" to hold the gravel in then I spent the rest of the morning picking up fasteners I had ordered and and needed, dropped by the bank to cash the last check I got and delivered a planter to a friend.
After that I went to get my gravel. Took my wife to lunch on the first trip then picked up a ton of crusher run gravel, came back and unloaded it using the FEL bucket as too wet to pull the trailer to the shed. Then I rushed back and got another 3000 lb about 15 minutes before the store closed. I came home and unloaded it and started spreading it but ran out of daylight. I'll spread it and may cut some LE locust sleepers tomorrow if the rain holds off.
I'll load up the mill for a mobile job or two Saturday and hopefully finish without having to go finish Sunday A.M. Then come back and mill the 2X2 "Floor Joists", flooring and 2X4s for the additional bins.
I did get the plastic to go over the gravel while I was out this morning so I could finish as far as the sleepers if the weather permits tomorrow. Its been a busy couple of days.
I think we've created a shed floor building monster guys. ;D
Hi. My name is Howard and I'm a shed-a-holic...
Oh, its not to that point yet. Okay, give me time.
I looked at a tall straight locust yesterday and was thinking I could get at least a couple of nice uprights out of it if I could keep it from falling on the power line or the line fence with my next door neighbor. I thought about climbing the tree with a chain saw to top it but I was severely chastised the last time I joked about something similar.
My gravel and plastic I bought today added about $80 to my build project. With the fasteners I borrowed from stock and such I now probably have about $250 in the 2 bays I am working on. That does not include my free sawing and lumber from my property or the mileage to get the gravel and such. That is still pretty reasonable for over 250 square feet of covered, floored storage space.
I got out and finished spreading the gravel this morning but with the dreary wet weather out there today I don't think I will get much more done on it today.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3482.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1677857196)
That is 5,000 lbs of gravel in the picture. I had to spread it with a rake and shovel. The bay is 14' long on the left side and 11.5' on the right side and about 9' wide so I guess there is about 110 square ft there. The floor will not be level but will be floating on sleepers on top of this gravel so it will work.
The framing was exposed on the last bay (on the right) so it was easy to access to lag screw the uprights to the framing. I am not sure just yet how I connect it here. I also have a shelf about 9' long and 12" wide up about 6' high I used to store crates, cookies and such. I'm planning on building bins along the back wall (9') and left side (14') and I also have a 6' space on the front between the doors for 10'-11' pieces. I'm hoping to leave the middle open at this point.
I guess if I need more wall space I can floor in the next bay. ::) It will also be 9' wide but will be about 16'-17' on the long side or about 140 sf but that would require at least 3 tons of gravel. My current next expense is going to be the hinges and door hardware.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3493.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1678321582)
Work has interfered with my shed building project for a few days but I got a little more done this afternoon. I put the plastic down on the gravel and sawed up several locust posts and pieces into 2" LE sleepers. As you can see several were very crooked. In fact I had to cut a couple to straighten them out.
Next I need to see if I have a 9' poplar log down to cut into 2" X 2" strips for "Floor Joists" and the rests of the log will be 4/4 flooring.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3496.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1678404765)
I squared up my new bay floor with the last board on the next door bay using a piece of roofing tin as a square then nailed my fresh cut 2X2 "Floor Joists" to my yesterday cut locust sleepers. Then I cut and nailed down the 3-1X6's off the little top to make the first 12" of my new bay floor. It is hard to see but the new floor is about an inch lower than the last one at the back corner. (I knew I should have saved those thick and thin cuts - this would be the perfect place to use them! ::)) That mismatch will be under the bins for the LE slabs so it will not be a trip hazard. I have 3-4 little 6-7 ft logs off an old tree I cut last winter. Weather and wife permitting I will cut them tomorrow and hopefully finish this floor with them then go buck a log for the 2X4 uprights for the bins.
Our big local flea market will open in 2-3 weeks and there is a big hardware vendor who often comes with good stuff at reasonable prices. Hopefully he will have the door hinges and hardware I need to finish these doors.
It was awful muddy to work out there today but I put down the floor with the short boards I cut today. Had to do a lot of splicing so was pretty slow but I got it all done except maybe one more 1X4 and trim to square up on on the left side. I guess "Square up" is an improper term as the floor I put down was square but there is an unfloored wedge on the left side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3500.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1678491300)
I tracked mud all over the floor but it will sweep off when it dries.
Looking great man!
Now what are we gonna do with the bay just to the left there? Looks like you are planning for a tie-in floor maybe?
Tom,
Right now the bay to the left has a bunch of benches stacked on pallets and an 8' pallet of lumber/slabs/bench leg stock but once I get the bins in and the rest of my LE slabs stacked vertically I think I will have a lot of left over floor space I can use for a lot of my benches. I have not decided on whether to put a floor in the 2 remaining bays but that is a possibility. I really do like the flooring so far.
In the upper edge of the last picture you can just barely see the shelf supports of a shelf along that wall about 6' high. I will have to remove that to put the new bins in. Right now it has crates, cookies and other crafts store on it.
Remember that toe boards aid in cutting wedges? :D If done right the sawmill could rip a board to drop right in there!
The floor looks good! I'll be interested in how it works out over time. I've been thinking of building a sawmill shed with a wooden deck I can drive through instead of pouring concrete. A variation on what you're doing might be what I need.
Ted, you can do wonders with that crushed stone. Not sure what kind of material you have in you area, we have crushed bluestone here and do a lot for this stuff with it. For load bearing I am thinking you put down an even layer of crushed stone about 4" deep, throw some plastic over it, lay down your sleepers, then fill in between to take some of the load, then put your floor boards down. Use a compactor or tamper when and wherever you can, that makes a big difference. I like those plank wood floors, SO much easier on the knees and back over time.
Ted,
I agree with Tom you can do wonders with crushed stone. It is $27/ton here for what they call "crusher run". I don't see why you could not build a wood floor in a shed to drive on. You'd just need to put plenty of gravel down. Compacting it like Tom describes would help. I put my "floor joists" on 16" centers but if I were putting a lot of weight on it I'd have put them on 12" centers and instead of using 4/4 boards for flooring I'd have used 8/4 or such.
Granite, quartzite, and crushed concrete are commonly available. Any would make a good base.
I'm thinking white oak sleepers and 8/4 decking would be plenty to support the truck and sawmill as I pull through. It wouldn't be much different than truck mats loggers use.
I'd much rather walk or stand on wooden decking than concrete and cleanup would be easier than on gravel.
BTW. The world's largest open face granite mine is about 30 miles from here in Mt Airy (Mayberry) Mt Airy was world famous for granite long before Andy and Barney came along.
https://www.ourstate.com/mount-airy-granite-quarry/ (https://www.ourstate.com/mount-airy-granite-quarry/)
Howard our posts "crossed in the mail"
Bear in mind "dirty" stone, crusher run, etc wicks water up by capillary action. "washed" rock is drainage material, usually no smaller than 1/2" is best if you are trying to keep things dry. I've driven on a little bit of wood block road and machine shops, foundries and factories often had end grain floors
Quote from: Don P on March 10, 2023, 09:38:25 PM. . I've driven on a little bit of wood block road and machine shops, foundries and factories often had end grain floors
Is an "end grain floor" what it sounds like? Brick sized chunks of wood set on end?
I'm thinking of how cool that would look, but how tricky it would be to build as well. Super compacted gravel? A vapour barrier of some kind?
Do you know some of the specs on how a floor like that could be built?
I worked in a LARGE plant that had that in the machine and sheet metal shops. This plant was built just prior to the onset of WW2 and had some unique construction that I won't describe here but it was built as a military installation even though it was a civilian contractor to the military. I have no idea how big the pant was in square feet, it was many acres and took 20 minutes to walk from end to end.
But the floor in the machine shop was end grain blocks. Under those was some sand, and I assume, under that was crushed stone and gravel. Yes, they were end cut blocks about 3x6" by 5 or 6" long. Millions of them side by side. No idea on the wood species. Once in a while they would install a new machine that needed a concrete base and they would pull the blocks and save them for use elsewhere, then form and pour the crete. I found the floors prety good on the knees the few years I was there. they were all black from the oil and likely creosote that was popular in the 40's for preservation. Never saw an unstable or wobbly block or a trip hazard. Never saw one that came up without being pulled. Smooth as silk for running equipment over and I never saw anybody doing maintenance on the floor.
Interesting plant from a construction point of view. They excavated a HUGE hole in the earth, maybe 50 acres by 50' deep. Then they built the plant in the pit with long sloping sides all around. The theory was, if the war ever hit out shores in a real way, they could backfill over the entire plant and leave tunnels to get in and out. The building was built to handle the roof load with fill on top and the skylights (the few we had) would stick up above it. A lot of history there. That company also bought house lots that comprised circles around the plant in various radiuses out to 3 miles and razed the houses and poured hug concrete blocks as anchors to hold a large balloon which held a steel cable up in the air as a deterrent to aircraft that would come in low to strafe the plant. Only plant I ever worked in that had machine gun nests at every employee entrance and cleared fields of fire. (They were no longer in service when I worked there, but still caught my eye on day one.)
The wood species most used for the end-grain wood blocks was Douglas fir (when local woods were used early on, before D. fir was transported to the industrial mid west locations)
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/i-was-there-4
And in the late 1800's,
https://www.landmarks-stl.org/news/the_creosoted_wood_block_one_step_in_the_evolution_of_st_louis-paving/
Thank you OG and BT.
I've learned to hate creosote on wood, and the old time factory floors were soaked in it, according to these articles.
I can't imagine how godawful one of those factories would've
been on a hot summer day!
Details like this make history come alive.
So, I'm guessing that Howard's "Shed Design Team" took a pass on this flooring? :D
Andries,
You did not read deep enough. :D The design committee are the cause of the flooring! I was happy with and planning another dirt floor on my new extension - my 4th bay. I mentioned/started with questions about how to store heavy LE slabs and we came up with a vertical bin mostly from ljohnsaw's drawings that matched my plans but they needed a stable floor so I was going to build 2'-3' wide base then Tom/OGH and others got off on the need for gravel and before long I had a ton of gravel down then decided with another ton I could do the whole bay then they pointed out I had to build some containment or my gravel would spread and I'd lose it so then I built formwork for the gravel. After that I used cut locust posts into 2" LE sleepers I laid on top of the plastic vapor barrier (Another committee must have) then I used a bunch of 2X2 strips for "Floor Joists" and nailed a bunch of stock 4/4 boards on that for the floor and amazingly - I liked it. I built the bins including little parallel OGH strips to stand the slabs on and stored about 60 slabs and fireplace mantels and realized that only took care of half what I had in hand. Of course some "helpful committee member" (I'd have to go back and see who at this point) pointed out I had an adjoining bay aching to have a floor that would be perfect for the extra storage. I cleared out the remaining stock in the adjacent bay and the rest is history. ;)
I am nearly ready to start cutting some more uprights and starting the bins in this second bay.
So don't think the design committee was not involved. If I had poured any concrete they'd have wanted to come down and put their paws in it to leave their palm prints for eternity. :D This is very much a group effort.
Howard, I think what Andries meant was that we "took a pass" on the end grain flooring.
In fact it never crossed my mind. But if it had, yeah, I would have discounted it. First, you need heavily worked ground to pull that off, it has to be dead level and flattened with a tamped sand bed. Then each block has to be laid and fitted and the last blocks to fill in the sections could be a bear to get it right. Edges all need to have solid support like timbers or concrete.
When they would open up a section, they would get a maintenance apprentice on the job and he would be there for a long time filling bins with blocks. All I could think of was what it was like to lay that floor in the first place, with millions of blocks and all that sand to level perfectly and tamp each block home. I would not wish that on Howard or any of my friends.
Thinking back on the creosote thing, I am not so sure they did use it. There was no odor at all. I just made the assumption based on color. But back in the 40's almost all machining equipment used a Sulphur based oil, which is a dark brown and nearly black. So more than likely, that's what I saw.
There was noting 'typical' about that plant. The general machine shop floor space was probably 100 yards square. Then there were about a dozen secured machine and fab shop in other parts of the building each assigned to a development team which worked on just one or two projects at a time. Access to those was a 'need to know' only, so I never saw them. That was the 'cake job' to get. You answered to nobody but your team. The job was one guy would ask one of the guys on those teams what he was making and the other guy would say "What I am working on is so top secret that even I don't know what I am doing." funny thing was, many times that was true.
There were at least two Military bases (offices) inside the plant at any given time. During my tenure it they were the US Navy and the Turkish Navy. There was a full hospital with operating suite, a medial clinics, and optometrists office to do glasses for all the employees, a bank, a credit union, a huge cafeteria, an executive dining room up stairs, two stores, and armed security everywhere. When you went out back it looked and felt like you were dropped off in the middle of a military base anywhere in the world. Sperry-Vickers used to operate there and one Saturday while poking around at lunch time, we found a bunch of old casting patterns for their motorcycle engines.
There was a lot more to it such as the gym's, weight rooms, bowling alley, rifle range, and a long list of other stuff I never found out about. The place was huge and during WWII they had 20,000 folks working there on 3 shifts.
Sorry for the diversion, I just had not thought of that place in decades.
To clarify, OGH is clear on what I meant: that the design committee considered and rejected the end grain floor.
Keep up the good work youse guys on the Design Committee.
Remember, the Taj Mahal wasn't built without some consternation.. 😉
Great job but one thing I have seen with a floor setup like that is mice, rats, chipmunks, and other small critters like to nest in the gaps under it. Hardware cloth sealed up around the outside laying about a foot out can help control that scenario and keep colonies from getting huge and smelly.
I thought the Taj Mahal was built by Ustad Ahmad Lahori, who knew? I gues your learn something new each day. Now I gotta go look up who this Costernation guy is and see what else he did.
21,
Then the mice and chipmunks and eventually the groundhogs and all are going to immigrate to my place because I have a 2" space between the sleepers and plastic sheet on top of the gravel and my board floor. That sounds like ideal housing space for them. ;) Most any critter could chew or tear through the plastic and dig through the gravel and dirt below if he wanted to. (I'm thinking mostly something like a groundhog.)
We are far enough south that when the mice and chipmunk population gets big enough the copperheads and canebrake rattlesnakes should move it to feast on them and that will provide an extra layer of security.
Come to think of it - maybe I need to post signs around my lumber storage area saying "Beware - enter at own risk as poisonous snakes are present." If I'd had those signs up in the past it might have prevented a theft or two out there.
Quote from: Andries on March 11, 2023, 10:34:39 AM
Remember, the Taj Mahal wasn't built without some consternation.. 😉
Nothing I do seems to be free of visits from Murphy & Consternation.
With impeccable timing, Consternation seems to follow Mr. Murphy and application of his law.
Those guys show up and the air turns blue.
Back to the end grain floors :D I worked at a Borg Warner factory in the 70s-80s and the area where we did the tool and die/fixture making had end grain floors. Only complaint was some types of metal chips, especially what came off a shaper, would get walked into the grain and were hard to sweep up, sometimes needed pliers to pull them. The production area was concrete.
We had a dreary, cold day with occasional spitting snow and I had to work on a minor plumbing issue first thing in the morning so not a lot done. I went out mid afternoon to feed the horse and bring in some firewood and such. The horse saw me coming and ran over by the gate and the first thing I knew he had fallen on top of the fence and was just laying there. I walked over and tried to pull him up but he weighs about 1600-1700 lbs. While he was laying there I saw him reach over and eat a multi-flora rose sprout so that was a good sign. He struggled trying to get up and rolled on over the fence and dropped on his side a couple feet to the road below. I was afraid he'd broken some ribs or something but he got up and started to walk toward the house. I called him and he turned around and walked to his stall and I fed him a gallon of sweet feed and he ate that with no apparent problems. I finished hauling him a bale of hay up the hill and got a cart load of firewood I'd cut earlier then let the horse out and he walked up to eat some hay and strolled on up in the pasture. I will see how he is doing in the morning. He is about 33 years old but has been pretty healthy. I think he just slipped on the wet trail. I went up and fixed the fence and piddled on the shed a little.
I finished the floor by adding a full length 1X6. I did cut out a half inch notch to fit by the center upright. Then I added a 7' 1X4 from the center to the rear where the bay is a little wider there. That pretty much covers all the 2X2 floor joists.
Then I went over and added 2- 2X4s and a 2X6 to frame in the front area between the new and previous bay to nail wall boards to. I guess the next phase is back to bin building. I did not take a camera so no picture but not a lot of changes to show anyway.
Scrolling through topics a couple days ago your floor caught my eye. I had to go back and read the whole thing from the beginning. Very interesting thread. I found some very useful information and just wanted to say Good job. It looks great.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3501.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1678651637)
Lousy weather again with sleet and drizzle and more mud. This shelf at the back of the bay had to be moved. Turned out just needed to remove 3 screws and drive up 5-6 8d nail where they had been nailed into the 2X4 frame it is sitting on. Was made from a 1" X 14"X 9' ash board. Very simple but effective. I removed the crates and cookies and such there and took the shelf down.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3503.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1678651841)
I put up a couple of 6' uprights and nailed some 2' 1X4's for braces to connect to the next upright. I am at a standstill now till I saw some 15' 2X4s for the left side and about a dozen 10-12 ft long 2X4s for uprights for the bins.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3508.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1678842324)
I got up to find nasty white stuff on the ground. View of my home from up in the pasture above.
I cut 9 - 15' 2X4s yesterday and started put them in for my bins today. I see I will need to cut 6 more 2X4s about 10' long to finish my bins. Plumber in the AM and trip with wife to take sewing machine to the shop in the afternoon may kill tomorrow. I got a good bit done today but had to stop to take my truck to get a new pair of shoes then I got some more done after I got back.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3512.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1678842729)
This is the last framing I put up for wall between the 2 doors on the front of the last 2 bays. (Yeah - I know I need to do a good police call and pick up all the cut off boards.)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3509.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1678842968)
This is 2 bins, one in each bay, behind the wall framing showed above. It will accommodate 10' plus slabs and will handle my remaining fireplace mantels and a couple more big 10-6" walnut pieces. I only need 1-2 more short pieces then the anti-kickback pieces on the floor and the OGH strips and they will be ready to use.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3511.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1678842900)
This is the new framing start of the bins on the left/long side on the new bay. I need more uprights here.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3510.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1678843503)
The will be the bins on the back wall. They will handle slabs up to 9'
I connected the 2X4 uprights to the horizontal framing using 60d nails/spikes. I drilled through the wide part of the upright 2X4 and 2" into the horizontal 2X4. That made for a real quick and easy and a vey strong connection but I need more spikes as I used nearly all the 3.5 lbs I got yesterday.
I got a lot done and the rest will go quickly and it will be ready to use real soon.
Nice place Howard. You should retire there. :) It sounds like you deserve it based on the tales of your travels. what a cool place for the grandkids to visit. a trip back in time. the shed included. God bless!
Doc,
The first winter here my wife got on the kids steel runner sled from up about where I took the picture and she missed the turn to the left and piled up in a multi-flora rose bush. We got chainsaws and cut her out. I brought back snow racers from Norway and I haul them up the hill there with my ATV and let the grandkids ride them down. Also I tie 3 of the snow racers end to end and tow them behind the ATV and play crack the whip on the sharp turns. They have a blast. When no snow I hook the 3' X 4' cart to the ATV, throw a bale of hay in the back that take the little kids for a "Hay ride" around the flatter areas. They love that too.
Been a rough couple of days. My simple plumbing job turned into a major project - cut and cap a long line full of grease which could not be cleared. It never should have had that long a run from a kitchen sink anyway and all in the wall with limited or no access. The plumber will come back Monday with a backhoe and dig down to the septic tank which is 4-5 ft underground and run a new line and tie in. I had to make access to the pipes from the basement which meant removing a ceiling fan with light fixture to get a panel off. I'll have to take down a panel of chain link fence for him to get his excavator in the yard but I have identified one that won't take long or be hard to put back.
When the plumber left we rushed to the sewing machine repair shop in Radford VA 90 minutes away and just barely got there before they closed. We went to a big Chinese Buffet place there then realized both of us had rushed out without our wallets so no money, and no plastic. ::) Had to return and was 7:30 pm before we got to eat with nothing eaten all day. I was one hungry, worn out puppy!
This morning another man came with his backhoe and cleaned out the ditch in my backyard so hopefully that will drain and dry up soon. Of course now I have to blade down the dirt and mud he removed. So now I will have my front and back yards messed up. ::)
I bucked off a 12' poplar log and pulled it to the mill with my ATV. I'll saw it next week. I installed the rest of the cut uprights and put in the rest of the cross pieces for and the anti-kickback protection in the finished bins. Now all I need it 6 more uprights and the kickplates for them and that will go real quick. I did not take pictures of todays work but the next one should be of the finished project ready for use. :)
We go to Atlanta tomorrow for a memorial service Saturday for my last maternal aunt then bring my mom back with us. Overnight in Charlotte and spend all day Sunday with our daughter and grandkids. My mom has not seen them since they were a newborn so I am sure she will love that. We'll come back to WV that evening then spend the week and we have another local GD birthday the next weekend and the whole family will be together for that.
If the weather permits I'll saw the 12' poplar log and finish the bins while Mom watches. She has never seen my mill in operation and that will be a good one to demo. I only need the 6 more uprights and the crosspieces are already waiting for them so that is a few minutes easy work.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3515.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1679442590)
After sawing the 2X4's I finished the bins today. Here is a picture of the tall bins at the front of the shed. My 93 y/o mom is in one of the bins. She sat on one of my benches and watched as I finished the work. These bins will hold slabs up to about 11' long which will include some fireplace mantels. I noticed as I took this picture a missing cross piece on the left side so I added one more 30" 2X4 cross piece after this picture.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3516.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1679442755)
These are the bins on the left side of the bay as you face it. This side is 14' and slopes from about 11' at the front to 9' at the back and includes one corner bin.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3517.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1679442914)
This is the back bins. I have 2 plus the corner one and they will hold slabs up to about 9' tall.
The bins are ready to use. (Don't tell him but the OGH strips are not included here as most of the last slabs did not sit on them anyway). It will likely be next week before I get around to moving slabs in to fill them.
I am sure your mom is proud. 8) Please do not tell her all the mean things we say about you. :o I do not want her mad at me! :snowball:
Are the tops of the uprights hooked to anything? If not move Mom before she hears you cussin :D. Those slabs are heavy :).
Don,
I will double check the outer uprights when I go out there again. I know the middle one is attached to that 2X6 crosspiece between the uprights so it is very stable. If they look like they need more support I can nail another piece to both of them to give them extra support.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3518.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1679577630)
Don,
Here is a picture of the right upright as you face the shed. it is against and nailed to the 2X6 rafter so it is rock solid. The center upright is the same.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3519.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1679577761)
There is a 2" gap between the rafter and the right upright. I will probably just nail up a 4' long 1X4 to connect all three uprights and that should suffice to satisfy all the safety concerns of the safety sub-committee of the design committee, don't you think? ;) :D
Quote from: doc henderson on March 21, 2023, 09:44:56 PM
I am sure your mom is proud. 8) Please do not tell her all the mean things we say about you. :o I do not want her mad at me! :snowball:
Doc,
She already knows about the abuse because she saw me crying one day and when she first got here and she asked me why and I told he it was because of the bullies who were always picking on me. She told me that as usual I was just being overly sensitive and to not let it worry me. Then she gave me a glass of milk and a cookie and everything was all right again. ;D
Not to worry Howard, when Doc and I and some others see you at the project, we will all get together and give you a big group hug! That should make it all better. ;D
Yeah! And after the hug you can be assured I am going to check to see if my wallet is missing! :D :D :D
Howard, I am shocked and disappointed! :o How could you think that of us? I mean, if we took your wallet, you wouldn't have any money for us to help you spend! So not only would it be just wrong, but it is also not logical. :D
Having just got back from the dentist... I didn't even get a hug and my wallet might as well be gone :'(
Yeah I know, no sympathy for self inflicted :D
Too close for me to tell, I was looking at loose tops in both pics below the pic with your Mom in it in reply 417.
Don,
Thank you for your concern. Now you know that uprights on her right were secured and I will rectify (and fix) the one on her left. ;)
Tom,
I certainly would not imply any nefarious conduct on your part but for the rest of the miscreants... ::)
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 23, 2023, 02:43:45 PM
Tom,
I certainly would not imply any nefarious conduct on your part but for the rest of the miscreants... ::)
Howard:
I've been called a lot of things, however that wasn't one of 'em.
Besides I thought I heard where your wife handles all monetary matters. Maybe it was someone else.
GAB
GAB,
I apologize. I did not realize you were going to be in on the group hug.
(Just in case I might should also check for my watch and car keys. :D :D)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3520.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1679704611)
In an attempt to get back in the good graces of the safety sub-committee of the design committee I went ahead and attached the upright in question to the adjacent 2X6 rafter using a short cut off of a 2X4. Hopefully this will be up to the appropriate codes applicable.
I do see I need to get up on the roof with some pop rivets and fix several nail holes in the used roofing. I had put tar/mastic in them but I see they have gotten hot and dripped through and a couple leaked in a rain shower we had this afternoon.
Howard, I know you are a minimalist, but you might want to drive a nail through the blocks, or drive a screw, or at least some glue for goodness sake! :snowball: looks good. :) :) :)
Doc,
I think you got snapped in the face one too many times removing that one rubber glove. ::) Just because they don't show does not mean there are not already 3- 16d nails in the block and the rafter. ;)
Well, at least I am the one wearing the glo... never mind! :D :D :D
Doc, when Howard drives a nail he DRIVES a nail! I bet he has to check once in a while and make sure it didn't come clean out the other side! (Besides, it's really hard to see those 28ga. pin nails in a photo anyway.)
Howard, those gloves don't snap like the old latex ones used to. Did you know it takes more training to teach folks how to properly remove exam gloves than it does teaching them how to put them on? There is a very specific process for removal that must be followed and snapping is not part of it. ;D
Yes, I learned the technique of removing the gloves so you roll one up into the other etc. It seems to work better than the old days of holding it with your teeth but you know Doc is from the Old School so ... :D
we did not use gloves in the old days! :o blood draws and other procedure like intubation. now you see tiny girl docs wearing the smallest disposable glove that are twice the size of there hand, and they cannot function. yes I always wear gloves for rectal exams. I know of one guy who was an ass and the finger of the glove doing the work broke and slid up his finger. is carma spelled with a c or a k? 8)
Quote from: doc henderson on March 25, 2023, 05:57:59 PM
we did not use gloves in the old days! :o blood draws and other procedure like intubation. now you see tiny girl docs wearing the smallest disposable glove that are twice the size of there hand, and they cannot function. yes I always wear gloves for rectal exams. I know of one guy who was an ass and the finger of the glove doing the work broke and slid up his finger. is carma spelled with a c or a k? 8)
Oh,,,This is one of those things that you just can't "unsee". ::)
I started moving some of the LE slabs into the new bins yesterday and today.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3525.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1680130489)
I first moved my last two really big walnut slabs and mantels into the tall bins between the 2 bays. That second slab to the right weighed 585 lbs when fresh cut and has air dried 3 years but it is still very heavy! I had to use a snatch block and the winch on the ATV to stand it up then walked it into place with a lot of grunting and a 3' crowbar. Next to it is a a 10'10" 4" thick walnut mantel which was also heavy for this one old man to move alone. ::) Anyway I got them all into place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3526.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1680130802)
These are 10' X 8/4 walnut slabs in one of the new bins.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3528.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1680130913)
Some 8' Walnut slabs stored against the back wall of the newly floored bay.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_3527.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1680131064)
I started moving a stack today and remembered I had a bunch of short crotches and such. Several of the slabs came from about a 3' stump I cut off a couple years ago. I went ahead and built a shelf across some handy bracing there in the corner to make an additional row. All was going good till I bent a 16d nail in a hard ash 2X6 I had drilled undersized pilot holes in. I used my 3' crowbar to pull the nail and when it did come free it smashed my R ring finger down on the rim of a big coffee can I was using to store my nails. Suddenly stacking slabs was not as much fun as it had been so I dripped and spit blood for a while till I finished the shelf and stacking the pieces on the forks of the FEL.
After that I went and loaded the truck and hooked up the mill to go do a mobile sawing job about 35 miles away in the morning. I will finish stacking after that is done and saw some more boards for the doors. It is looking like I will have plenty of bin storage for the slabs I currently have in stock. The shelves I was using for them will be handy for small crafts like bird houses and crates and such.
I hate it when you have to go back to work and heal up so you can play again.
No picture as nothing huge changed but I did install about 4' X 12' of siding on the front of the shed this afternoon to help keep rain from blowing in on the stacked LE slabs. Fresh cut and right off the sawmill. Now I just need to build 2 doors. I moved a few slabs yesterday and some more today and did a little police call to pick up a bunch of board cut-offs and such. Today I stacked a couple hundred stickers. Now I just need to start using the freed up shelf space to store other small things like bird houses, bench legs and such to better utilize the space I do have.
Yesterday I also got up on the roof and inside with the rivet gun to seal some holes in the used roofing. I sealed the last one today so that looks pretty good.