Tractor PTO question

[chep]

I am looking at a 71 oliver 1365 tractor. My plan is put it to work in the woods. Most likely with some sort of winch... now, the tractor has a "live" (not sure if thats the right word) pto, meaning that it must be engaged while the tractor is not running. and is spinning the entire time the machine running. It can be disengaged while the machine is running, but not engaged. Is this sort of PTO a disadvantage to running a winch off the back, or does this feature not affect winch performance? I am not very familiar with the logging winches, but from what I can tell it is important to be able to engage and disengage the pto with the engine running... other then that its a great machine, but this could be the stalling issue.
thanks

[Maine372]

you can run with the winch engaged all day. the problem will be the drive chain that transfers power from the PTO shaft to the powered side of the clutch. i always disconnected the PTO when i wasnt using the winch because i could hear that chain spinning and rattleing around. you could just plan to replace that chain, i never have had to replace it. i would suggest a PTO you can disengage and engage on a whim.

[timberjackrob]

any tractor that i have ever used u could engage the pto with tractor running. however i have never drove an oliver.most of the time this indicates a pto clutch out of adjustment or a clutch spring broke.tractor pto are usually in one of three categories old tractors pto would stop as soon as you stepped on the clutch then came"livepower"u could push the clutch down part way and stop tractor but pto would still turn push clutch all the way down and pto would stop a great improvement like if u were square baling hay and came to a big winrow u could use the clutch to slow down but keep the baler running. now most tractors are equiped with independent pto which are hydraulic driven and can be engauged or disengauged without using clutch.

[Mark K]

There must be something wrong with it if you cannot engage the pto while running. As Timberjackrob said, live pto means you can push in the clutch to stop forward movement and the pto will keep running. We own 3 olivers on the farm, all are live pto. I would definitely check it out, would be real hard on starter trying to turn the engine plus the implement to start. Good luck

[chep]

thanks for those replies. That being said, if it is something wrong, and the PTO is not working properly, what are we talking to fix that. there are already a few other issues with the machine, and if this is a major one, well...

[timberjackrob]

if the tractor is equipped with live pto which i expect it is a whole new clutch pack which includes the pulling clutch and the pto clutch would probably be in the 300 to 400 dollar range for a rebuilt one with exchange we have put several in our old massey 175 we used touse to load logs with. iwould first try adjusting it on a massey u can gain access to the clutch for adjustment purposes by removing a plate under the tractor but u will need a manual for specs or maybe mark k. can help u with that as i have no experience with that ajustment is sometimes hard to get pto clutch and pulling clutch both working like they are supposed to.but i would give it a try.

[John Mc]

There are plenty of PTOs (especialy on older tractors) that you can't engage while the tractor is rolling -- you have to let the tractor come to a stop first. But that's quite different than not being able to engage them while the tractor is running.

Did you test this "engage wile running" business, or did someone just tell you that?

John Mc

[Mark K]

Ours are 1855 olivers and are controlled hydraulically. On ours the pto unit is unbolted and pulled out the back. Takes longer to drain the oil than to remove the pack. Is that one actuated hydraulically? There is a adjustment bolt on the actuator that sends pressure to the pto break and away from the pack on ours. They are fairly cheap to rebuild, I rebuilt a pack last spring. Replaced disc's and plates along with break band for a little over $300.

[tyb525]

I think what he means is the PTO is always running whenever the tractor is running. Therefore, in order to attach something to the PTO, you have to shut the tractor off.

Edit: Sorry I misread the original post

[John Mc]

I think what he means is the PTO is always running whenever the tractor is running. Therefore, in order to attach something to the PTO, you have to shut the tractor off.

I don't think so. Original post said he could disengage while tractor is running, but "must be engaged while the tractor is not running". To me this means shut off the tractor before shifting the PTO lever to "on".

[timberfaller390]

Even if the tractor is running you should be able to dis engage the pto. Bottom line is if the tractor has to be started with the pto in gear or if the pto can't be dis engaged with the tractor running, then something is wrong and you should probably look for another machine.

[Okrafarmer]

I am looking at a 71 oliver 1365 tractor. now, the tractor has a "live" (not sure if thats the right word) pto, meaning that it must be engaged while the tractor is not running. and is spinning the entire time the machine running. It can be disengaged while the machine is running, but not engaged.

Here is a link to the tractordata account for this model
http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/6/9/694-oliver-1365.html

This was one of several models that Oliver "farmed out" to another manufacturer. It was built by Fiat of Italy. They were sold in some numbers so the tractor is not terribly rare. I haven't heard of general reliability issues with these models. Tractor Data says that it should have an independent PTO, which is the best kind. If this is true, then something is wrong with it, anyway I know Oliver would not have sold a tractor where you were not supposed to engage the PTO with the tractor running-- that would be utterly ridiculous. Yes it ought to be fixed-- you might find a place on line that offers the clutch packs for sale, or check with your local AGCO dealer-- which probably will be your Massey Ferguson dealer now-a-days. It could be that it just needs adjusting. . . . .

[chep]

It is a Fiat built machine. With the engine running, but the tractor stopped the PTO does not engage, just grinds. I tried it, and then the dude told me that you must shut the tractor down to engage it. As I said, you CAN disengage it while it is running, but NOT engage.

[Okrafarmer]

It is a Fiat built machine. With the engine running, but the tractor stopped the PTO does not engage, just grinds. I tried it, and then the dude told me that you must shut the tractor down to engage it. As I said, you CAN disengage it while it is running, but NOT engage.

It's not supposed to be that way. There should always be a way to engage a PTO while the tractor is running. Maybe some foreign tractors out there, designed for work in their own country, could be like that, but anything meant for sale in the USA by 1970 would never have been sold new like that. Every indication is that this thing is messed up. Whether the "dude" is lying to you or is just ignorant, I can't say. If by some strange chance he is telling the truth, and that's the way it was intended to work, you don't want the tractor. Go get one that works properly. But I'm more than 99% sure it is just not working properly and needs to be repaired. In which case, you need to see whether the price he's asking is low enough to justify buying it. If everything else works fine, and it is four wheel drive, and I had the money to buy it, with your intentions, i would be willing to pay up to $2500 for it realizing I would have to pay $500-1,000 to have it fixed.

[John Mc]

Definitely sounds as though the clutch needs adjustment or rebuild.

[Randy88]

I own a case with simular tendancies but its in need of repair and I know that, just don't have the time to do the repairs so we know it and run it like that but its not right, for mine its in the adjustment of the actuaviting lever and linkage thats worn out, not the pto unit so get by, figure out before buying it if its in the lever adjustment or if its hydrualically adjusted and something more is wrong with it and figure it into the cost and adjust the price accordingly, anyone else would too and have it fixed and you'll be happy with the performance, always having to shut the tractor off first is a royal pain, thats what we have to do with that tractror and don't use it much for pto work at all and that why its not been fixed, we just go get another tractor for pto work.  

[beenthere]

Is there a chance that this tractor has a double main clutch, partially depressing the clutch pedal to engage/disengage the tranny and fully depressed to engage/disengage the PTO shaft?  This was a system used in the earlier 60's to have "live" PTO power, and sometimes the PTO clutch would fuse together and require use as described (shut the engine off to engage).

I agree with what Okrafarmer said and others..back away unless you have some good idea what is in store for a fix. And someone lined up that can do the fix and find the parts (as they might be real hard to find).

[chep]

thanks for all the advice folks I really appreciate it. It looks like I may back off this machine. For the record it is not a 2 stage PTO.
thanks again!