The Forestry Forum

Hello All,
  I am new as a member of the forum, but have been reading posts and articles for about the past year or so. I am preparing to retire from the Army after 24 years, and I finally decided that I want to be a sawyer when I grow up. Being as green as I am, I have several dozens of questions about how to get started (I will not ask them all now, as I can probably answer many from researching the forum). I have narrowed down the manufacturer I want to buy a mill from to Timberking and Cooks, leaning towards Timberking. Whatever mill I get will have full hydraulic log handling (see question #2).
  My first question is, other than the mill and something to move the logs and lumber around (I have a tractor with forks already), what are other essential items I will need to get started? I plan to offer sawing services at the customer's location, as well as sawing, kiln drying, and finishing at my location. That said, I know I will need at least a cant hook, any equipment associated with the operation of the kiln, and what ever sanders, planers, and shaping equipment I decide I need based on what products I plan to offer. I know the list is probably long and varied, but I would like to minimize the amount money I waste on things I don't need, so I will rely somewhat on your collective knowledge and experience here.
  My second question is what should I expect as far as the amount of physical labor I will be required to do. I plan to work mostly alone, so I know I will have to set up the mill, move/stack cut lumber, etc., I just don't know how difficult it will be. The reason I ask is because I had a total shoulder replacement this past January, and I may have to get the other replaced this winter. The one I had replaced feels much better than the original at 6 months and I'm just waiting for my strength to come back. Based on the results of my first surgery, I think I will be OK to do most tasks, but I would like informed opinions on how less-than-optimum shoulders might inhibit my ability to get things done. Based on my situation, if there are any tricks or pieces of equipment that will make my life easier that you folks know of, please include those as well. Thanks.
  

Almost impossible to do alone and the work is hard, like an old pulpwooder use to say " Its a rough ole go!

   Here is a suggested start if you are thinking about mobile sawing. http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=100326.0 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=100326.0)

   Sounds like 2 good mills but why aren't you interested in Woodmizer? The nearest dealer to you is a couple hours away - he is the one I got mine from although I have dealt with other offices including the main HQ in Indy and I have had super support from all. I hear good things about Cooks and Timberking but I can personally verify WM.

   Have you looked at or for similar operations in your area? If there are others what service will you provide that they don't. (Around here there is a manual mill somebody owns up every other holler and many offer to saw cheaper than I do but in most cases they are not mobile so that is my niche I am chasing.)

    Dealer LogRite is the cat's meow when you talk about cant hooks. You really need 2 long ones and maybe even a short mill special. I won't embarrass him while he is currently vacationing in the PNW but I know of one member who has a dozen or so (at least it seems that way). :D

    I would suggest you go to every sawmill demo and show possible as even if not the mill you choose you will learn shortcuts and time and step saving tips even if you just learn about features you don't want or others that are a must have.

    If there are other sawyers in your area I'd suggest you see if you can go off bear for them and get a better feel for the steps and labor expectations. Many FF members are very open to search and I learn something every time I get around one. 

    Make a list of questions and search them here and you will likely find the answer but if not post it and I am sure you will get a respectful reply even if certain members find out you really don't like grits (yet). :D

    Oh, BTW - welcome.

First piece of equipment to buy with those shoulders is a Lackey. You need a 15/hour assistant to help you move boards. The boards that sell well are big wide thick and heavy. If you try to make money with thin, narrow short boards, you're going to go broke. But with those shoulders being replaced you are not going to have the strength to muscle around an 8/4 22" wide flitch. You need help on the other end of that board to do what you need to do to make money. 

Besides a Lackey, you need: 
Chainsaws (and all the accessories: chains, chain lube, chain files, gloves, fuel mix, fuel mix canisters)
Cant hooks / digging bars - moving logs takes effort and levers are good for reducing that effort
Fuel cans - you will run out of fuel when sawing the big logs, so bring extra
Gloves - 12 pair to start; the cheap ones wear out after a week of sawing 
Grease gun - everything on a sawmill needs grease
Tools - a good set of deep well sockets, open and box end wrenches, screwdrivers, 5lb hammer, Large crescent
Electrical tester, tape, wires, and wire nuts to repair stuff in the field
Assortment of Grade 8 bolts and nuts in (SAE - nobody uses metric on Sawmills in the US) 
Stand Umbrella - you're going to saw in the rain, the snow, the sun and the wind if you want to make money
Truck - all the stuff you need at a job site is not going to fit in your back seat. 
You'll need an 250 / 2000 / 3/4 ton pickup. Don't go any less. 
All the stuff you need for towing: Draw bar hitch pins, hitch lock, towing chains, electrical adapters, bungee cords, hitch adapter, brake light adapters, all the stuff needed to wire it up. 
Blades - 30 or so to start. If you are out sawing other peoples logs, you'll use 3 or 4 per job or more if you hit objects. 
Straps and chains and cleats and clevis hooks and connectors and pins - you'll be moving logs by hand until you get these things to help you move them with a truck. 
Spare parts for the most common things that break on a mill: Bearings, hoses, relays, engine parts. 
Buckets, and bins and containers for sawdust, scraps, and fluids running out of your mill. 
Hardhat and chainsaw chaps if you plan to be around the tree felling and bucking operations. 

Before you go out and saw, get some 4x4s cut to stack your customer's lumber on. Cut yourself several dozen stickers to help them stack the lumber so it doesn't go to waste (if it does, they won't call you back). 

Are you SURE you want to do this? 

First: Thank You for your Service! Second: Congratulations on your impending retirement. Third: Welcome to the forum.
 As you have been reading here over the past year, there are a lot of ways to go about this and everybody is different with differing goals. You have a lot to think about and plan. I got my mill back in October and did some quick wood to build a shed for the tools I needed to support it. The got snowed out, did some thinking and studying and really set about making good wood come spring. All the while trying to figure out where I am going with all this. It's a 'spare time thing' for me, and I have no spare time, just time I can squeeze out.
 But there is how I look at it: You are basically building a manufacturing facility or production line. As with all of these operations, things come in, get work done, and value added, then get moved out (sold). SO if you try to look at it from that point of view, you begin in the front. Where am I getting my logs? how will they get to the mill from the woodlot, how mill I get them ON the mill, how will I get them OFF the mill? Where and how will i stack them for air drying? Will I kiln dry, if so, where and in what? If they are kiln dried where and how will I store them after that? Then there are similar questions with portable milling, etc. 
 The point is, break the process into pieces beginning at the front because if you try to figure it all out at once, you are bound to get off track because you don't know what you don't know yet. You learn an awful lot your first time through each section, then you have a MUCH better idea of what the next step is. You read here, so you have seen posts where someone said words to the effect of "That's it, I am loosing too much time, I HAVE to get a forklift, can somebody make a recommendation?" (substitute 'forklift' with edger, green chain, bigger mill, planer, or anything else). The point is, when you need it, you will know, and you will have a pretty good idea of the size or type you want by then too. Just start with the basics and work your way along. You will go a little crazy if you try to plan it all out first, acquire it all, then try to make it work.
 As for your shoulders, yes, you need to be very careful. This is very heavy work with lots of opportunity to get hurt, especially if you are favoring a particular body part. I hurt my back badly just two months in by just pushing the mill head along in a simple cut. Cost me nearly a month of work, but since then, my strength has improved greatly after good treatment that continues to help me. I feel better and stronger now than I have in 20 years, but my wind doesn't hold up as well and if I really push it to get an order done like I did last week I get a little scared at how exhausted I am after just 6 hours working in the heat without stopping. Even though I have turned a lot of fat back into muscle and haven't lost any weight, the lungs are still my weak spot. If you get hurt it could really hurt your plans, especially if you have loan payments to make. My stuff is ALL manual. I suggest you get every hydraulic do-dad you can, loading, rolling, toe boards, drag back, etc. to make that "working alone thing' go as far as it can. It can be done but it will take a lot of detailed setup work.
 I am not trying to scare you at all, if I did it, anyone can. BUT you need to consider all this and have a plan. I would kill to get a tail gunner, even a 14 year old kid to help one day a week would be huge (provided I can teach him/her how to work).
 You will hit hundreds of little road blocks along the way, when you research them here I promise that the solutions you may have already read through will make a LOT more sense after it happens to you.
 Best of luck, there is a good team here to help you out, I am just a new guy. Don't be shy with specific questions.

Quote from: Woodpecker52 on July 30, 2019, 07:12:21 PM
Almost impossible to do alone and the work is hard, like an old pulpwooder use to say " Its a rough ole go!

One of the best compliments I ever received was from my Grand Dad who told me I was a smart worker. I didn't know what he meant until my Dad told me that meant I worked hard and did what I was supposed to. I don't mind hard work, I just hope I am still capable. I expect to receive some assistance from willing customers. I know this can be a double-edged sword, but I have some experience managing people who don't know what they are doing.

Welcome to the Forum and thank you for your service.  My first advice would be to slow down, you have taken the "Army of one" line a bit too literally from what you describe here. The vision of what you want to do it very much along the line of what I do, but I don't and can't do it alone for starters.  As far as managing people, customers are not in your chain of command and one of the down falls of a strong economy is hiring labor.  I am telling you it is snowflake city out there way too often.  Yes you can find good folks, but you will go through a lot of poor ones to get them.  Had a new guy today that made me pull out the few remaining hairs I had left.  

As far as other stuff you will need and or want - a building is first, you can't saw in the rain, and the sun will kill off any help you do manage to find, in addition you need storage as customers don't come as soon as something is finished and you don't want a finished product getting wet.  You need rollers and or conveyors to reduce material handling, you need a sawdust collection system to keep from shoveling yards of sawdust each day.  If you set up a planer and sander then those are absolutely mandatory just to keep the equipment functioning.  You will want a very good edger as you can't edge lumber to the accuracy you will need on a bandsaw if you are selling finished products.  You will need a trim saw / jump saw of some kind and a battery chain saw.  Oh - spare parts, means to sharpen bands, knives, etc.  When doing my taxes last year I took a look at my depreciation schedule and realized I could have a really, really, nice home with what I have invested in equipment. 

What I am getting at is before you jump into the deep end, make sure the pool has water in it.  You need to find your market before you go all in.  I can tell you what I am doing is not what I thought I would be doing.  I found a niche and things grew from there.  I would not want to be in a position where I had all the wrong equipment for what I was doing, so I let it grow organically.  

I can't speak to a shoulder injury, but I can tell you this is a physical game.  You can only reduce so much of the handling at this level as your eyes and mind need to be in the game to make it work with each piece of lumber.   Now I did break my L5 when I stepped where I should not have, so it's not like I am at the top of my game and I am able to get it done, but like I said I pay for help and reduce the effect of gravity any way possible.  In all of this my take away would be to take a step back and get your feet wet before you jump right in.  Learning to saw is a new education, learning to dry another, dealing with civilian employees, a whole new world,  then adding value through planing / moulding, etc.  It can work and works very well, just understand what you are up against.  If possible visit as many operations as you can, you are welcome to come here and observe the chaos if you would like, just bring good boots - never know when a cow may wander by or a calf may decide now is the time to arrive.  

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 30, 2019, 07:22:07 PM
  Here is a suggested start if you are thinking about mobile sawing. http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=100326.0 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=100326.0)

  Sounds like 2 good mills but why aren't you interested in Woodmizer? The nearest dealer to you is a couple hours away - he is the one I got mine from although I have dealt with other offices including the main HQ in Indy and I have had super support from all. I hear good things about Cooks and Timberking but I can personally verify WM.

  Have you looked at or for similar operations in your area? If there are others what service will you provide that they don't. (Around here there is a manual mill somebody owns up every other holler and many offer to saw cheaper than I do but in most cases they are not mobile so that is my niche I am chasing.)

   Dealer Logrite is the cat's meow when you talk about cant hooks. You really need 2 long ones and maybe even a short mill special. I won't embarrass him while he is currently vacationing in the PNW but I know of one member who has a dozen or so (at least it seems that way). :D

   I would suggest you go to every sawmill demo and show possible as even if not the mill you choose you will learn shortcuts and time and step saving tips even if you just learn about features you don't want or others that are a must have.

   If there are other sawyers in your area I'd suggest you see if you can go off bear for them and get a better feel for the steps and labor expectations. Many FF members are very open to search and I learn something every time I get around one.

   Make a list of questions and search them here and you will likely find the answer but if not post it and I am sure you will get a respectful reply even if certain members find out you really don't like grits (yet). :D

   Oh, BTW - welcome.

Thank you for the advice. To answer your question, I initially started my search with WM, as they are probably the most prevalent manufacturer in the industry. After researching and watching a few hours of video of several mills, I decided I prefer the 4 post design to the cantilever . In some videos, I could actually see the WM head "bouncing". I don't know if it was operator error, the speed of the cut or what, but I could see the head bounce. I know there are many, many satisfied WM owners who can and will argue against this, and it may not even affect the cut, but I saw it, and I can't un-see it. I don't have the experience necessary to argue the merits of one design over another, I just prefer 4 post. I did see that there is a WM dealer within a couple hours of me, and I do plan to visit when I am home on leave in October. Trust me, I prefer to have a dealer close by, but that is not my primary consideration.
  I have looked at other operations in the area (not in person - just through ads), and I think I can provide two key elements that I don't see advertised much: mobility and kiln drying. Also, I will buy the biggest mobile mill I can afford, so I will also have an advantage (especially with the TK 2200) in the size of log I can cut and the width of cut (37"). I read on the forum that one of the senior forum members was able to cut a log over 40" on a WM, but the cut throat of the largest WM mill is only 34".
  I will look into the logrite cant hooks. Maybe the un-named member with a dozen can let everyone else know when they find one they like.
  I would love to go to shows and demos, but I am currently stationed in Hawaii, so there are none to be found. If there is a web site where I can see what shows are happening where and when, please point me in the right direction. When I get home for good next spring, I will try to get together with some FF members in my area to help them out and see what I can learn at the same time. I guess I have not been on the forum long enough to understand the grits reference?

Quote from: Southside on July 30, 2019, 11:32:54 PM
Welcome to the Forum and thank you for your service.  My first advice would be to slow down, you have taken the "Army of one" line a bit too literally from what you describe here. The vision of what you want to do it very much along the line of what I do, but I don't and can't do it alone for starters.  As far as managing people, customers are not in your chain of command and one of the down falls of a strong economy is hiring labor.  I am telling you it is snowflake city out there way too often.  Yes you can find good folks, but you will go through a lot of poor ones to get them.  Had a new guy today that made me pull out the few remaining hairs I had left.  

As far as other stuff you will need and or want - a building is first, you can't saw in the rain, and the sun will kill off any help you do manage to find, in addition you need storage as customers don't come as soon as something is finished and you don't want a finished product getting wet.  You need rollers and or conveyors to reduce material handling, you need a sawdust collection system to keep from shoveling yards of sawdust each day.  If you set up a planer and sander then those are absolutely mandatory just to keep the equipment functioning.  You will want a very good edger as you can't edge lumber to the accuracy you will need on a bandsaw if you are selling finished products.  You will need a trim saw / jump saw of some kind and a battery chain saw.  Oh - spare parts, means to sharpen bands, knives, etc.  When doing my taxes last year I took a look at my depreciation schedule and realized I could have a really, really, nice home with what I have invested in equipment.

What I am getting at is before you jump into the deep end, make sure the pool has water in it.  You need to find your market before you go all in.  I can tell you what I am doing is not what I thought I would be doing.  I found a niche and things grew from there.  I would not want to be in a position where I had all the wrong equipment for what I was doing, so I let it grow organically.  

I can't speak to a shoulder injury, but I can tell you this is a physical game.  You can only reduce so much of the handling at this level as your eyes and mind need to be in the game to make it work with each piece of lumber.   Now I did break my L5 when I stepped where I should not have, so it's not like I am at the top of my game and I am able to get it done, but like I said I pay for help and reduce the effect of gravity any way possible.  In all of this my take away would be to take a step back and get your feet wet before you jump right in.  Learning to saw is a new education, learning to dry another, dealing with civilian employees, a whole new world,  then adding value through planing / moulding, etc.  It can work and works very well, just understand what you are up against.  If possible visit as many operations as you can, you are welcome to come here and observe the chaos if you would like, just bring good boots - never know when a cow may wander by or a calf may decide now is the time to arrive.  

When I came in it was "Be all that you can be". Its been down hill from there. I guess sometimes you just need to be alone...but I meant that initially, I don't plan to have any employees, so I'll be doing most stuff alone. I only plan to work the equivalent of part time, unless the income is too good to pass up, so high production is not one of my initial goals. I do plan to take things slow, both with sawing and buying equipment. When (if) I can build my skills and clientele to an appropriate level, then I might try to step it up by hiring employees and buying new equipment. Initially, I only plan to offer rough sawn lumber and slabs, then kiln drying later (when I get it built). If there is demand, I may move on to finished slabbing, planing, moulding, etc.
  I have a couple barns already, and my next-summer project is to build a dedicated saw shelter and lean-to on the long side of the big barn (~70 ft) for the lumber. I'll get to the kiln when I have time. Thanks for the reply.

Quote from: esteadle on July 30, 2019, 07:25:44 PM
First piece of equipment to buy with those shoulders is a Lackey. You need a 15/hour assistant to help you move boards. The boards that sell well are big wide thick and heavy. If you try to make money with thin, narrow short boards, you're going to go broke. But with those shoulders being replaced you are not going to have the strength to muscle around an 8/4 22" wide flitch. You need help on the other end of that board to do what you need to do to make money.

Besides a Lackey, you need:
Chainsaws (and all the accessories: chains, chain lube, chain files, gloves, fuel mix, fuel mix canisters)
Cant hooks / digging bars - moving logs takes effort and levers are good for reducing that effort
Fuel cans - you will run out of fuel when sawing the big logs, so bring extra
Gloves - 12 pair to start; the cheap ones wear out after a week of sawing
Grease gun - everything on a sawmill needs grease
Tools - a good set of deep well sockets, open and box end wrenches, screwdrivers, 5lb hammer, Large crescent
Electrical tester, tape, wires, and wire nuts to repair stuff in the field
Assortment of Grade 8 bolts and nuts in (SAE - nobody uses metric on Sawmills in the US)
Stand Umbrella - you're going to saw in the rain, the snow, the sun and the wind if you want to make money
Truck - all the stuff you need at a job site is not going to fit in your back seat.
You'll need an 250 / 2000 / 3/4 ton pickup. Don't go any less.
All the stuff you need for towing: Draw bar hitch pins, hitch lock, towing chains, electrical adapters, bungee cords, hitch adapter, brake light adapters, all the stuff needed to wire it up.
Blades - 30 or so to start. If you are out sawing other peoples logs, you'll use 3 or 4 per job or more if you hit objects.
Straps and chains and cleats and clevis hooks and connectors and pins - you'll be moving logs by hand until you get these things to help you move them with a truck.
Spare parts for the most common things that break on a mill: Bearings, hoses, relays, engine parts.
Buckets, and bins and containers for sawdust, scraps, and fluids running out of your mill.
Hardhat and chainsaw chaps if you plan to be around the tree felling and bucking operations.

Before you go out and saw, get some 4x4s cut to stack your customer's lumber on. Cut yourself several dozen stickers to help them stack the lumber so it doesn't go to waste (if it does, they won't call you back).

Are you SURE you want to do this?

First let me apologize to everyone for quoting in every reply. I can't figure out how to reply to specific posts.
  This started out as something I wanted to do for a hobby. I've been doing "have-to" for a long time. I figure it was about time to do something I want to do. I will have to invest a little more in equipment than I would if I was doing it solely as a hobby, but I'm OK with that. The money making part will make my wife OK with it too.
  I have a small stable of chain saws and associated support/safety equipment. I also have many of the tools you mentioned, along with cables, block+tackle, 2500 Ram, 14K flatbed, tractor with forks, etc. I didn't think of an umbrella though (that's genius). I have a couple pop-up party shelters that will work. The first things I produce off the mill will be stickers.
  I appreciate all the advice, and yes, I am sure I want to do this.

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on July 30, 2019, 08:03:13 PM
First: Thank You for your Service! Second: Congratulations on your impending retirement. Third: Welcome to the forum.
As you have been reading here over the past year, there are a lot of ways to go about this and everybody is different with differing goals. You have a lot to think about and plan. I got my mill back in October and did some quick wood to build a shed for the tools I needed to support it. The got snowed out, did some thinking and studying and really set about making good wood come spring. All the while trying to figure out where I am going with all this. It's a 'spare time thing' for me, and I have no spare time, just time I can squeeze out.
But there is how I look at it: You are basically building a manufacturing facility or production line. As with all of these operations, things come in, get work done, and value added, then get moved out (sold). SO if you try to look at it from that point of view, you begin in the front. Where am I getting my logs? how will they get to the mill from the woodlot, how mill I get them ON the mill, how will I get them OFF the mill? Where and how will i stack them for air drying? Will I kiln dry, if so, where and in what? If they are kiln dried where and how will I store them after that? Then there are similar questions with portable milling, etc.
The point is, break the process into pieces beginning at the front because if you try to figure it all out at once, you are bound to get off track because you don't know what you don't know yet. You learn an awful lot your first time through each section, then you have a MUCH better idea of what the next step is. You read here, so you have seen posts where someone said words to the effect of "That's it, I am loosing too much time, I HAVE to get a forklift, can somebody make a recommendation?" (substitute 'forklift' with edger, green chain, bigger mill, planer, or anything else). The point is, when you need it, you will know, and you will have a pretty good idea of the size or type you want by then too. Just start with the basics and work your way along. You will go a little crazy if you try to plan it all out first, acquire it all, then try to make it work.
As for your shoulders, yes, you need to be very careful. This is very heavy work with lots of opportunity to get hurt, especially if you are favoring a particular body part. I hurt my back badly just two months in by just pushing the mill head along in a simple cut. Cost me nearly a month of work, but since then, my strength has improved greatly after good treatment that continues to help me. I feel better and stronger now than I have in 20 years, but my wind doesn't hold up as well and if I really push it to get an order done like I did last week I get a little scared at how exhausted I am after just 6 hours working in the heat without stopping. Even though I have turned a lot of fat back into muscle and haven't lost any weight, the lungs are still my weak spot. If you get hurt it could really hurt your plans, especially if you have loan payments to make. My stuff is ALL manual. I suggest you get every hydraulic do-dad you can, loading, rolling, toe boards, drag back, etc. to make that "working alone thing' go as far as it can. It can be done but it will take a lot of detailed setup work.
I am not trying to scare you at all, if I did it, anyone can. BUT you need to consider all this and have a plan. I would kill to get a tail gunner, even a 14 year old kid to help one day a week would be huge (provided I can teach him/her how to work).
You will hit hundreds of little road blocks along the way, when you research them here I promise that the solutions you may have already read through will make a LOT more sense after it happens to you.
Best of luck, there is a good team here to help you out, I am just a new guy. Don't be shy with specific questions.

That is a great post. I have thought about many of the aspects you mentioned, from getting logs to moving products and I am trying to separate the must-haves from the nice-to-haves. As an example, it would be nice to have a log truck with a grapple, but I don't need another mortgage. My plan right now is to start with the best mill I can afford, then develop from there. I plan to get all the hydraulic do-dads I can. Thanks for the advice.

I am not far from you and if you would like to drop by to see my operation you are welcome. I have a Cook mill, the MP32 to which I have added electric loading and turning, etc, so it is quite different from the hydraulic version, but you are welcome anyway. BW, the Cook mills are very rugged - I've had mine 17 years and it has held up very well.

Bob

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 30, 2019, 06:42:11 PMI plan to offer sawing services at the customer's location, as well as sawing, kiln drying, and finishing at my location. That said, I know I will need at least a cant hook, any equipment associated with the operation of the kiln, and what ever sanders, planers, and shaping equipment I decide I need based on what products I plan to offer.   
  

I will help you on the quote part. 2 ways to it. Hightlight what you don't want,as I did,than press the space bar or use the backspace. Well if you are on a phone,I have no idea. This is on a desktop.
Welcome to the forum. Thanks for protecting us.
Sounds like you are going to be busy. The only thing I can tell you,you will need to hire some help with that list.
I myself,if I was going to work,I would become a handy man. In my area,I could make some money. Not a man that build houses,just one to help out doing the small jobs.

Jeepcj,

     It sounds like you are way ahead on the equipment side than I was and in some case still am. There are tons of comments here on the 4 post head and I am sure they are stable. WM even makes a couple now. I watched them at a demo at the NC dealer shop and I saw I'd have to change the way I unload my lumber if I had one. Not right or wrong just different. The biggest complaint I have about the dealers selling them is with some who, as part of their own marketing, say a cantilever head can't cut straight. That's not true and I like to cut a 1/8" veneer cut and show people when they say that. The last log I cut yesterday was a 12' red oak and I was cutting 18" at a pass (I had made a 6" & a 12" cant) cutting some real pretty 4/4 boards. I will say more power and more torque are always nice. My 25 hp kohler uses a little less than a gallon an hour. I ran for 4.3 hours yesterday, all red oak, and cut about 900 bf of 4/4 and a little 6/4 RO lumber. A bigger mill should cut more and faster but that was about as fast as we could handle it with the equipment and muscle power we had on hand. 

    I'd suggest concentrate more on whether you will be doing mobile or stationary. The equipment and processing will be real different. On a mobile job you are typically at the mercy of what equipment the customer has for loading and handling logs, boards, sawdust and slabs. If stationary you can consider the edgers, rollers, etc that you can't haul. Also on a mobile job you you have to have and carry a good maintenance and consumable kit with you in case you have to make repairs in the field. When stationary you can just run to the shed and get the item needed. 

   The building SouthSide mentions as essential to his operation is not going to be there when sawing mobile. Portable jobs are very much dependent on the weather and way more so than stationary.

    Look carefully at your pricing. Be fair to both sides. You need to be competitive but make a decent profit so you have to be real diligent about capturing all your costs. You will make mistakes - learn from them, correct them as best you can and try not to repeat them. Your reputation is your most valuable asset IMHO and referral from other customers is your best advertising. If you can't handle a request, turn it down or refer to someone who can. Unfortunately at first you won't know that till you try - the old Catch 22 syndrome. I try to practice new cuts and such at home on my wood rather than at a customer site when possible. Good luck.

Read old jarheads posts. Informative and entertaining. He chronicles his beginning years doing portable milling. He paid off a new truck and lt40 in a couple seasons ! He too had injuries.

Good day Jeepcj.  I have a TK b2000 and am happy with the mill itself and the support from Matt and the guys at TK.  I live about 3 hours away and stop in when I am in KC.  You could subscribe to sawmill and woodlot magazine for more info but also searching here can answer many if not all start up questions.  there are several members in NC and most would be happy to let you stop by and maybe work for a day with them to get you feet dusty!  Welcome to the FF and welcome home when the time gets here!

From someone else who is starting out on this same venture I can tell you that sawing is a very small part of what you'll actually be doing.

Want to saw something? Where is the log coming from? Are you going to cut down the trees or pick them up somewhere or have them delivered?

Great, now you've got some logs. Lets get sawing! But where will the wood be stacked to dry after it's sawed? Maybe time to put up a drying shed.

OK. Now we've got someplace to stack lumber so lets get to sawing out some nice wood! But how are we going to stack the wood? It would be really nice if everything was on pallets, making it easy to move and transport later. So instead of sawing nice wood saw some junk wood into pallet boards and build a bunch of pallets.

Now we should be able to saw good logs. But wait, now we need stickers. Lots of stickers! So saw up more junk logs until you're sick of making stickers. That should be enough to hold you over for a week or so.

While you're doing all this you'll be prepping your site for milling and trimming logs and end sealing them and stacking them in piles based on length and species and then realizing you should have stacked them in a different spot so you move them again and then you realize some of these logs are just firewood and some aren't even good enough for that so you haul them away and somewhere along the way you realize that logs are really heavy and that your tractor with forks isn't big enough to handle some of them and that it really wants to tip over on you so you go out and spend a bunch of money on something more capable.

And now you saw up some beautiful lumber sawed and stacked and get it all tucked away in the drying shed. And while it's air drying you start building your kiln and build a nice shop for the jointer and planer and table saw and chop saw and when that lumber that was so beautiful coming off the saw comes out of the kiln you find out that a good bit of it has bowed or cupped or twisted and you spend hours at the jointer and planer and wish you'd have bought bigger and faster ones but that would require 3 phase power and you don't have 3 phase power so you start researching phase converters and then someone comes in and buys $300 worth of wood and you think, "this is great, it only took me 20 minutes to saw that log and I sold the wood for $300" and you conveniently forget how much time you spent doing all those other things.

I glossed over a lot of things but you get the idea.

I'm not saying you have a bad idea or that it won't work. Just that until you actually get into the process I don't think you can really know all that's involved. It sure was (and continues to be) an eye opener for me. It will help that you're retired and presumably live in a climate that will let you saw nearly year round. Trying to fit this in around a full time job and 5 months of winter compresses time a bit. I'm still shocked at how few logs I've actually milled compared to the amount of time I've invested into the rest of it.

Good luck and have fun!

Alan

My dad was stationed in Hawaii in the late 50s as an army MP and was on the colonels rifle team.  we want to visit someday.  If you contact timberking, they can tell you if there is a mill in your area.  They are a sponsor and several folks including the owner follow this forum.  you may have stated already, but what is your timeline for return.

I would add that the two differentiators you mentioned, mobile and kiln drying, are ....well they are not aligned.  Sawing is a matter of logistics.  Southside and others have mentioned it already so I am beating a worn topic but...I'll beat it anyway.  You want to know how you are going to handle everything before you start up, at least it is good to have a roadmap in place.  Some like Magicman decided long ago that they liked sawing and not stacking, as a result he does mobile sawing almost exclusively.  Others like Yellowhammer and Southside and (several guys in NC) have somewhat permanent operations and differentiate by kiln drying, slabbing, doing long timbers, etc.  They all have figured out how to mechanize wood handling and yet are looking to improve all the time.  Log to mill, log onto mill, mill, boards moved off, sawdust moved off, slabs moved off, boards restacked, boards hangout somewhere in barns or in field, boards go to customer.  It is just one giant logistic puzzle and only a bit of it is sawing, certainly less than half.  Drying the boards properly might be more important than cutting properly.  

I like a 4 post mill myself but I am not sawing mobile.  Read @Stuart Caruk (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28226) long threads about his decision to go to a 4 post woodmizer mill instead of keep his cantilevered WM.  He said somewhere that he thinks it is a better option for mobile sawing as it is easier to level.  He went 4 post because he was not doing mobile work and was fixed (welded/bolted to fixed surface mounts).  

Lots of members in NC, I bet you could go work at one's mill for a week and offbear and learn a ton..I mean a ton.  We had 3 guys offbearing for mobile sawyers on and off for 2 years before I bit bullet and decided to bring in house.  Labor is my greatest challenge.

Quote from: alan gage on July 31, 2019, 11:47:38 AM
From someone else who is starting out on this same venture I can tell you that sawing is a very small part of what you'll actually be doing.

Want to saw something? Where is the log coming from? Are you going to cut down the trees or pick them up somewhere or have them delivered?

Great, now you've got some logs. Lets get sawing! But where will the wood be stacked to dry after it's sawed? Maybe time to put up a drying shed.

OK. Now we've got someplace to stack lumber so lets get to sawing out some nice wood! But how are we going to stack the wood? It would be really nice if everything was on pallets, making it easy to move and transport later. So instead of sawing nice wood saw some junk wood into pallet boards and build a bunch of pallets.

Now we should be able to saw good logs. But wait, now we need stickers. Lots of stickers! So saw up more junk logs until you're sick of making stickers. That should be enough to hold you over for a week or so.

While you're doing all this you'll be prepping your site for milling and trimming logs and end sealing them and stacking them in piles based on length and species and then realizing you should have stacked them in a different spot so you move them again and then you realize some of these logs are just firewood and some aren't even good enough for that so you haul them away and somewhere along the way you realize that logs are really heavy and that your tractor with forks isn't big enough to handle some of them and that it really wants to tip over on you so you go out and spend a bunch of money on something more capable.

And now you saw up some beautiful lumber sawed and stacked and get it all tucked away in the drying shed. And while it's air drying you start building your kiln and build a nice shop for the jointer and planer and table saw and chop saw and when that lumber that was so beautiful coming off the saw comes out of the kiln you find out that a good bit of it has bowed or cupped or twisted and you spend hours at the jointer and planer and wish you'd have bought bigger and faster ones but that would require 3 phase power and you don't have 3 phase power so you start researching phase converters and then someone comes in and buys $300 worth of wood and you think, "this is great, it only took me 20 minutes to saw that log and I sold the wood for $300" and you conveniently forget how much time you spent doing all those other things.

I glossed over a lot of things but you get the idea.

I'm not saying you have a bad idea or that it won't work. Just that until you actually get into the process I don't think you can really know all that's involved. It sure was (and continues to be) an eye opener for me. It will help that you're retired and presumably live in a climate that will let you saw nearly year round. Trying to fit this in around a full time job and 5 months of winter compresses time a bit. I'm still shocked at how few logs I've actually milled compared to the amount of time I've invested into the rest of it.

Good luck and have fun!

Alan

This is 100% spot on. I started by building the mill. Then I started cutting. shoot. now I need a place to stack it. stopped cutting started making space to just stack outside. Shoot. need stickers. I thought I had enough. Not even close. So I made a ton of stickers. yup. lasted for 3 logs. Was out of stickers in one cutting session. Now cut more stickers.

Side note:
I actually figured out if you get about a weeks worth of stickers cut, then every time your cutting after that make a bunch of stickers. As long as you can do this you may be able to stay ahead on your sticker needs. They do not take long to dry to the point they will not mold.

Now you got everything cut stickered and stacked. Now we wait. Sure wish I could but I keep stacking them where they are in the way. Now of course I am out of space to stack wood. I have a big pile of logs needing to cut but no place to put the lumber. And of course I stacked them on top of each other so now whenever I need to get to the bottom I need to move the tops. Now where do I put them so I can get to the bottom.

It is an ongoing cycle. But it sure is enjoyable :)

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 31, 2019, 01:48:23 AM
 I will look into the Logrite cant hooks. Maybe the un-named member with a dozen can let everyone else know when they find one they like.

Since you are still getting your sea legs here and have yet to perfect your search skills on the forum (an essential tool for you to have) I have found one of the several posts we are all thinking about regarding these hooks. Click HERE (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=106490.msg1659930#msg1659930). See reply #10 in that thread. The aforementioned member is a prolific poster with a lot of sage knowledge to share, but it on a well deserved extended driving vacation through the PNW. He will return eventually. We call him Magicman, for reasons you will understand at some point.
 There are several members who have or are in the process of making the journey you are planning and they have threads running in this forum chronicling their adventures and pains. Those will make good reading for you. I myself have one too (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=106265.0), but my goals are not as high as yours, none the less you may find some tid-bits of interest (like things NOT to do).
 I got my mill nearly by accident. I bought it because it was available at a very sweet price and I knew the value. I never intended to make any money, just wanted to learn and do some of my own projects. I never looked for work, but it came to me. I began to get those sporadic phone calls 'Hey, Joe tells me you got a sawmill, could you mill me up 2 planks for...' and things like that, so a cash job here and there helps with expenses.
 Sounds like you are well on your way, just keep reading, almost all of your questions have already been asked and answered in previous threads. There is a lot of reading to do. I spend a good deal of time doing that here and have been for about a year now. If you find a memeber who seems to be in your same situation, you can go to their profile (once you have a few posts up) and just read all their posts to see what they are commenting on and what they have questions about. I have found this is a great way to get my head in the game. 
 These are very good folks here and I was blessed to build friendships with 2 very different members in my area and have visited both. Both of them were kind enough to help me with a problem or 3 even though I really didn't ask, they just offered. One really got me out of a bind.
  Enjoy the ride, it's a great wave.

Quote from: Crusarius on July 31, 2019, 12:26:56 PMSure wish I could but I keep stacking them where they are in the way. Now of course I am out of space to stack wood.

I'm in the same position. I've got a bunch of air dried wood but no good place to put it. And it's taking up the space I need to stack fresh lumber. I'm building a shop now which is using up some of it and will house equipment to get more of it planed and prepped to sell. I need to saw logs for siding on my building and house but I guess those will just have to sit outside to dry for a few weeks before they go up.

Alan

Someone who has been sawing for profit, for a long time, can tell you what not to buy and many other things it would take years to learn. Good luck.

I look at it like this.  Milling is a good way to make some money, but a hard way to make a living. 
 
I don't like employees either.  Some roller conveyor will help at the mill.  Look into getting a mill that has dragback.  When mobile, charge hourly to encourage the owner to provide an off bearer. 
 
You may find someone who can work part time ish on a contract basis.  Suggest them to the owner of the logs at mobile jobs and have the owner pay them as a contractor.  Not your employee, but a big step up at the same time.  Saves you a ton of paperwork! 
 
I've also heard people wish they had gotten the kiln first and just custom dried others lumber.  A possible niche to consider. 

Did someone mention stickers? These are from waste we made last week. They are banded and drying on the steel. 1040 of them. 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/15645950577312012815829.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564595012)
 

They won't last long once we break into the pack. 

   I like the comments about stacking. I'd cut more wood here at home now if I had a place to stack it and yes, everything the customer wants is on the bottom of the stack so at least I rotate the positions regularly. ::) How to display your lumber is another big consideration. 

    Any lumber I sell is typically a salvage operation from fallen or excess trees I own or sometimes people give them to me. Warning - free logs aren't free! It is easy to get more time and handling costs in them than they are worth. I don't buy logs and just finished my first sizable saw on shares job now I have to go pick it up and stack it. I already had to restack one pile to make room for this. 

Quote from: kelLOGg on July 31, 2019, 05:43:26 AM
I am not far from you and if you would like to drop by to see my operation you are welcome. I have a Cook mill, the MP32 to which I have added electric loading and turning, etc, so it is quite different from the hydraulic version, but you are welcome anyway. BW, the Cook mills are very rugged - I've had mine 17 years and it has held up very well.

Bob

Thanks. I'm just on the other side of Raleigh from you, so I might have to take you up on that.

I'm lazy.

I bought a TK-2000 in 2010 after 16 years on a manual mill. I equipped my TK with dragback and added a few mods. Couple of roller tables and I'm in business. Most boards and slabs don't really get picked up. They get pushed/shuffled into either the slab rack or the board rack. For the occasional errant slab, I pick up one end and the roller table holds up the other end. Most of the time sawing, I stay right at the console and take very few steps.

Edging was the real muscle puller/back breaker on my mill. I've made modifications by replacing the stock 6" two plane clamp with a 12" clamp, added bearings on the loader arms, and another tweak or two. Now I can flip flitches off logs onto the loader arms with the clamp, and stand up the flitches with the clamp/log turner. Drag back the edgings, and if I hold my tongue just right, even flip the flitches with the two plane clamp. Edging now is pretty painless on the mill, although still slow.

About the only way a helper can improve my productivity is bringing me logs, and hauling off slabs. Of course helpers don't show up on time and try to make up by quitting early, want money, and sometimes grits.

For a long time I was ahead of the mizer mills with a 32" throat on my 2000.  Still only one WM wide in my area I think.  I do think the 2200 with a 37" throat might be worth the extra cash as wide seems to be a seller.

I just thought to add, I have two pieces of support equipment.  A compact tractor with a FEL.  It can only lift 1,000 pounds or so but I use it the most because its quiet, fast, and easy on fuel.  For heavy lifting I have a truck mounted forklift which has also proven itself.  I would hate to give up either one but could get along with just the forklift.  I also have three cant hooks, in the last four days of sawing I used the Logrite mega hook 1 time.  Machines are great!

I just toured the cave where they assemble the mills.  the b 2000 now has a 35 cut inch throat standard.  they modified the moveable band guide wheel.  Most people like what they are used to and I like my TK.  The WM guys are just as loyal.  I would get the biggest mill you can afford and justify for what you will be doing.  I am just an uber-hobbyist.

Quote from: doc henderson on July 31, 2019, 09:40:21 PM
I just toured the cave where they assemble the mills.  the b 2000 now has a 35 cut inch throat standard.  they modified the moveable band guide wheel.

Can my 2000 be modified?

yes, talk to Matt or Mike.  you could try to mod. it yourself, or buy the new parts from them.  still a 36.5 inch gantry.  the new mills also have a heavier toe board, but nothing is cheap.  they are always trying to improve, but the price also goes up.  I think my mill is worth more used now than I paid for it.  7 years ago.

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 31, 2019, 08:59:58 AM
Jeepcj,

    It sounds like you are way ahead on the equipment side than I was and in some case still am. There are tons of comments here on the 4 post head and I am sure they are stable. WM even makes a couple now. I watched them at a demo at the NC dealer shop and I saw I'd have to change the way I unload my lumber if I had one. Not right or wrong just different. The biggest complaint I have about the dealers selling them is with some who, as part of their own marketing, say a cantilever head can't cut straight. That's not true and I like to cut a 1/8" veneer cut and show people when they say that. The last log I cut yesterday was a 12' red oak and I was cutting 18" at a pass (I had made a 6" & a 12" cant) cutting some real pretty 4/4 boards. I will say more power and more torque are always nice. My 25 hp kohler uses a little less than a gallon an hour. I ran for 4.3 hours yesterday, all red oak, and cut about 900 bf of 4/4 and a little 6/4 RO lumber. A bigger mill should cut more and faster but that was about as fast as we could handle it with the equipment and muscle power we had on hand.

   I'd suggest concentrate more on whether you will be doing mobile or stationary. The equipment and processing will be real different. On a mobile job you are typically at the mercy of what equipment the customer has for loading and handling logs, boards, sawdust and slabs. If stationary you can consider the edgers, rollers, etc that you can't haul. Also on a mobile job you you have to have and carry a good maintenance and consumable kit with you in case you have to make repairs in the field. When stationary you can just run to the shed and get the item needed.

  The building SouthSide mentions as essential to his operation is not going to be there when sawing mobile. Portable jobs are very much dependent on the weather and way more so than stationary.

   Look carefully at your pricing. Be fair to both sides. You need to be competitive but make a decent profit so you have to be real diligent about capturing all your costs. You will make mistakes - learn from them, correct them as best you can and try not to repeat them. Your reputation is your most valuable asset IMHO and referral from other customers is your best advertising. If you can't handle a request, turn it down or refer to someone who can. Unfortunately at first you won't know that till you try - the old Catch 22 syndrome. I try to practice new cuts and such at home on my wood rather than at a customer site when possible. Good luck.

I trust everyone who has a WM and says that they are excellent mills and cut straight. If they didn't, they would go out of business. I just don't know if I can make it cut straight when it gets out of proper adjustment. I think I'll be more comfortable with a 4 post. I feel at this point like I will be doing about equal amounts of mobile and stationary, but that is based on zero experience. Like I said in a previous post, I was going to do this as a hobby after I retire, so I hope I can just scale things up from hobby to small business. I will go mobile when I think there is money in it, and stay stationary otherwise. I'll need to put in some practice with my own logs before I try to mess someone else's up. I probably will not buy any trees. I hope to be able to get trees from tree removal services, storms, and word-of mouth. I have about 20,000 bdft of pine, white and red oak, and other mixed hard woods that need to come down around my house right now. I plan to practice on the pine and hopefully do well enough with the oak to sell it. I have a couple hundred acres up near Princeton, WV, but that is a 5 hour+ haul, so I don't think that will be very economical. Thanks for the reply.

Jeep, keep the questions coming.  If you want to avoid the quote, you can hit Reply at the top of the thread.  or if it has been a few threads earlier that you want to comment on, you can use the quote reply and back out all of the quote you do not need and keep what is pertinent. WM now makes a 4 post head. not sure if TK has any mills there but you can call and find out.

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 31, 2019, 10:21:06 PMI probably will not buy any trees. I hope to be able to get trees from tree removal services, storms, and word-of mouth

Just don't make that a "must" as part of your business plan.  "Free" logs are worth exactly what you pay for them in far too many instances.  First there is the tramp metal, golf ball, small children, and grave markers that end up in them (yes I have a log with a grave marker completely surrounded by the wood), but overall it can be very challenging to get quality lumber from yard trees due to the open nature in which they grow, the  reason they are removed (disease, damage, etc) and the complete lack of log grading that they are often bucked by.  Just be flexible to buying quality logs if you want to produce quality, finished lumber like you stated before.  

You could make a spot for your mill on your land, mill the wood and haul it home to use and or sell.  Now you need a good truck and trailer.  start slow however it works out, and follow the direction you need.  if milling for yourself great, if you get custom jobs great,  if everyone wants live edge slabs great!  I am excited for you to get started.  best regards.

Jeep,

  Keep reading, keep asking questions. The biggest complaint I had about my new mill was the WM rep brought me my mill and did a good training session but I did not know enough about the machine or the process to even know what questions to ask. Fortunately their customer service team are very patient and extremely cooperative. They have a service loop where a team comes out every other year and do a complete check up and alignment and they are also great at training on what they are doing and how I need to do.

   When you come to Princeton WV again come see me. You will only be 30 miles away. We'll fry up a good mess of Catfish fillets from Bluestone Lake. Good luck.

Southside,

  We had a monument business when I was growing up. I saw grave markers like you describe. There is a good chance it has the epitath "Gone but not forgotten". I've seen that on graves with trees big enough for saw timber growing out of them. My favorite epitath was common in Norway and just said "Thanks for the help".

Knowing me mine will probably say something along the lines of "Turn around real slowly and look behind you" or "I saw that" - just to mess with folks.  ;D 

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 31, 2019, 04:21:36 PM
  I like the comments about stacking. I'd cut more wood here at home now if I had a place to stack it and yes, everything the customer wants is on the bottom of the stack so at least I rotate the positions regularly. ::) How to display your lumber is another big consideration.

   Any lumber I sell is typically a salvage operation from fallen or excess trees I own or sometimes people give them to me. Warning - free logs aren't free! It is easy to get more time and handling costs in them than they are worth. I don't buy logs and just finished my first sizable saw on shares job now I have to go pick it up and stack it. I already had to restack one pile to make room for this.

I plan to get most of my inventory from salvage but I'll need to learn to be selective about what I take on. I expect initially most of my income will be from sawing at customer locations. Later, I hope to run a kiln or two for hire, and one for myself. I think two solar kilns and one Nyle L200M should do. After that, maybe moulding, planing, etc.

Quote from: Southside on July 31, 2019, 10:52:53 PM
Knowing me mine will probably say something along the lines of "Turn around real slowly and look behind you" or "I saw that" - just to mess with folks.  ;D

your poor wife... :o :o :o :D :D :D

Quote from: TKehl on July 31, 2019, 01:18:34 PM
I look at it like this.  Milling is a good way to make some money, but a hard way to make a living.  

I don't like employees either.  Some roller conveyor will help at the mill.  Look into getting a mill that has dragback.  When mobile, charge hourly to encourage the owner to provide an off bearer.  

You may find someone who can work part time ish on a contract basis.  Suggest them to the owner of the logs at mobile jobs and have the owner pay them as a contractor.  Not your employee, but a big step up at the same time.  Saves you a ton of paperwork!  

I've also heard people wish they had gotten the kiln first and just custom dried others lumber.  A possible niche to consider.

I am lucky in that I will not have to rely on the mill business as my primary source of income. I will definitely look into getting some roller conveyors. Although I am leaning toward the TK 2200 right now, I have been unable to find much information on the dragback feature, other than cost. There is a small section in the manual on the dragback, but no good pictures or diagrams are included. I have also been unable to locate any videos of the TK dragback design in operation. Before I commit to a purchase, I will see it in operation, even if I have to fly to their facility to see it. Maybe I'll take a video and post it. Anyway, I like the execution of the dragback on both the WM and the Cooks and I hope the TK is comparable. It is definitely a feature I will require.

Quote from: Southside on July 31, 2019, 01:44:13 PM
Did someone mention stickers? These are from waste we made last week. They are banded and drying on the steel. 1040 of them.  
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/15645950577312012815829.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564595012)
 

They won't last long once we break into the pack.

I will add a bander to the list. Where did you acquire the steel?

Quote from: Larry on July 31, 2019, 08:52:41 PM
I'm lazy.

I bought a TK-2000 in 2010 after 16 years on a manual mill. I equipped my TK with dragback and added a few mods. Couple of roller tables and I'm in business. Most boards and slabs don't really get picked up. They get pushed/shuffled into either the slab rack or the board rack. For the occasional errant slab, I pick up one end and the roller table holds up the other end. Most of the time sawing, I stay right at the console and take very few steps.

Edging was the real muscle puller/back breaker on my mill. I've made modifications by replacing the stock 6" two plane clamp with a 12" clamp, added bearings on the loader arms, and another tweak or two. Now I can flip flitches off logs onto the loader arms with the clamp, and stand up the flitches with the clamp/log turner. Drag back the edgings, and if I hold my tongue just right, even flip the flitches with the two plane clamp. Edging now is pretty painless on the mill, although still slow.

About the only way a helper can improve my productivity is bringing me logs, and hauling off slabs. Of course helpers don't show up on time and try to make up by quitting early, want money, and sometimes grits.

For a long time I was ahead of the mizer mills with a 32" throat on my 2000.  Still only one WM wide in my area I think.  I do think the 2200 with a 37" throat might be worth the extra cash as wide seems to be a seller.

I just thought to add, I have two pieces of support equipment.  A compact tractor with a FEL.  It can only lift 1,000 pounds or so but I use it the most because its quiet, fast, and easy on fuel.  For heavy lifting I have a truck mounted forklift which has also proven itself.  I would hate to give up either one but could get along with just the forklift.  I also have three cant hooks, in the last four days of sawing I used the Logrite mega hook 1 time.  Machines are great!

I also have a tractor with FEL with forks and can pick up 2500#. I get more use out of those forks than anything else on the tractor. I still don't get the grits reference!

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 31, 2019, 11:21:53 PMWhere did you acquire the steel?

A local distribution center closed up and sold everything including what was bolted to the concrete.  I bought 20 or so cantilever racks along with a lot of power conveyor there. 

Quote from: doc henderson on July 31, 2019, 09:40:21 PM
I just toured the cave where they assemble the mills.  the b 2000 now has a 35 cut inch throat standard.  they modified the moveable band guide wheel.  Most people like what they are used to and I like my TK.  The WM guys are just as loyal.  I would get the biggest mill you can afford and justify for what you will be doing.  I am just an uber-hobbyist.

I hope to be an uber-hobbyist someday. Maybe once I'm done paying for equipment.

Quote from: doc henderson on July 31, 2019, 10:38:43 PM
 not sure if TK has any mills there but you can call and find out.

Guess I will have to call ahead. I just assumed they would have demo equipment available at their manufacturing facility. My closest dealer is in NY State. I will try to find some log and timber expos/demos where I can see the mills in action.

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 31, 2019, 11:38:37 PMI still don't get the grits reference!

I can explain it for you.  But it will cost an SGU.  :D

Quote from: doc henderson on July 31, 2019, 10:47:05 PM
You could make a spot for your mill on your land, mill the wood and haul it home to use and or sell.  Now you need a good truck and trailer. 

I have one truck and a good trailer, but I would need two trucks. I have lots of trespassing issues on the plot in WV, so I would have to pack everything in and out each trip. I would not leave anything behind I wanted to keep. I will see if I can find a smaller plot closer to where I live with some good quality trees. If not, I will rely on the NC weather to fell some trees for me.

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 31, 2019, 10:48:53 PM

  When you come to Princeton WV again come see me. You will only be 30 miles away. We'll fry up a good mess of Catfish fillets from Bluestone Lake. Good luck.

I will have to take you up on that. I may head up there when I am home in October if I have the time.

Quote from: Southside on July 31, 2019, 11:50:37 PM

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 31, 2019, 11:38:37 PMI still don't get the grits reference!

I can explain it for you.  But it will cost an SGU.  :D

Don't know what an SGU is either. The only grits I am familiar with are the ones you eat for breakfast. I know that if you put sugar in them instead of salt and butter, you are doing it wrong.

   We will be looking forward to seeing you in October. I am glad you know that sugar and grits don't mix - it is a crime against nature.

Quote from: Southside on July 31, 2019, 11:50:37 PM

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 31, 2019, 11:38:37 PMI still don't get the grits reference!

I can explain it for you.  But it will cost an SGU.  :D

Jeep, SS is having some fun with you. As you read here and get to know some of these clowns Esteemed members and their proclivities you will begin to pick up on these. Also there is a FF dictionary that has a lot of these explanations (look under the Extras pull down). An SGU is a Standard Goat Unit. I forget what the current rate is but I believe it was $200/SGU last time I looked. Take your time, read around, you pick up on the lingo and semi-weird stuff. Apparently even the grits proponents seem to have 'discussions' about proper usage and consumption. These things I will never truly understand being a northerner and all.

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on August 01, 2019, 12:33:42 AMI forget what the current rate is

Pretty sure it is still $300.  

Grits are an excuse to eat cheese, butter, maple syrup and probably a few other things that would not be generally considered acceptable to eat alone. 

If you consume too many grits be sure to search the outhouse posts, could be crucial to the setup of the sawmill next to your pad, drying rack, possible kiln and forklift (or something heavy metal with lifting ability)...good luck, it's a great ride.

Did anyone talk to you about marketing, that is also a great waste of time as you receive calls for free trees you just need to cut down and remove on your own, at no cost to the owner :)

    OffGrid makes a good point about the "free" trees. They are generally half rotten yard trees full of tramp metal and such and are typically leaning over an expensive house, a major power line or an expensive chain link or wooden privacy fence. Once you get the tree cut down you will be expected to clean up all the debris and repair the lawn to it's original pristine condition although this should not be too hard as the homeowner won't have let you drive across his grass anyway. By giving these trees to you the homeowner expects to save thousands of dollars the experienced, insured and certified tree service has already quoted him for such removal.

the grits thing is a southern thing, like spam in Hawaii.  The north cannot and will not understand.  I am from the Midwest so I understand but do not eat them (grits).  SGU is like a bitcoin.  If you have many goats, you may try to barter with them.  It should be stated that some yard and tree service trees are ok, but watch out for the Tom Sawyers in the world who offer a tree.  not to be confused with  @Tom the Sawyer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=9572)   .  Being from Ks, I also do not have an accent, vs folks from the south, and northeast.   :)

girts is something that has to be mixed with something to make it taste good. ::)  Than certain people try to tell certain people how good they are. ::) 

I hate to contradict the esteemed Mr. thecfarm BUT grits taste good to begin with. Adding butter enhances the exquisite flavor of grits. If you're having grits for the second time that day you may add some cheese for variety.

Putting sugar in grits is like putting diesel on prime beef.

Well congratulations @jeepcj779 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=46423) you have spawned your first grits spin off thread and topped it with the SGU explanation. Something I never managed to pull off. I guess you are officially part of the fold now. Nicely done. ;D :D 8)

The poor OP, he is wondering what world he has just stumbled into.   ;D

Quote from: doc henderson on August 01, 2019, 08:44:03 AMSGU is like a bitcoin

Except it is backed by real world assets, namely out houses, built at the world famous Rock-Hill, SC facility. In the event of the collapse of modern society your "Ice" will thank you for investing in SGU's. By the way, the safest place to store your SGU's is at the bottom of a Posthole that is filled with an Ash post. They last much longer than a Kansas Maple post ever will.   :D

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 31, 2019, 11:20:47 PMBefore I commit to a purchase, I will see it in operation, even if I have to fly to their facility to see it.

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 31, 2019, 11:06:26 PMLater, I hope to run a kiln or two for hire, and one for myself. I think two solar kilns and one Nyle L200M should do. After that, maybe moulding, planing, etc.

We have similar goals.  ;)  If you go see TK in KC, you may as well look at Woodmaster and their planer/moulders while you are there.  Solid little machines for what they can do.  I got both of mine used though...   And still trying to get a shop set up...

Feel free to say hi as well.  I'm about and hour East of KC.

Quote from: btulloh on August 01, 2019, 11:48:05 AMI hate to contradict the esteemed Mr. thecfarm BUT grits taste good to begin with.

Sunlight comes down from heaven into a corn plant and the net result is grits.  Proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. 8)

Quote from: Southside on August 01, 2019, 12:43:08 PM

The poor OP, he is wondering what world he has just stumbled into.   ;D

I have a strong feeling this isn't Jeep's first rodeo. Given his long service, I am sure he has the grit Stamina to jump right in. ;D

Just caught the SGU thing my last transaction I got 62.50 avereage / GU, I think I got taken  >:(
And I have always thought grits were better as high moisture corn fed to feedlot cattle. Good luck on your venture..

Quote from: doc henderson on August 01, 2019, 08:44:03 AM
the grits thing is a southern thing, like spam in Hawaii.  The north cannot and will not understand.  I am from the Midwest so I understand but do not eat them (grits).  SGU is like a bitcoin.  If you have many goats, you may try to barter with them.  It should be stated that some yard and tree service trees are ok, but watch out for the Tom Sawyers in the world who offer a tree.  not to be confused with  @Tom the Sawyer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=9572)   .  Being from Ks, I also do not have an accent, vs folks from the south, and northeast.   :)

I will commit to taking a look at yard logs and logs from the "Tom Sawyers", but I won't commit to taking them off their hands. 
   Spam tastes like sausage and bacon had a baby (when pan fried). I am from the south, so I understand grits. As long as you don't put sugar in them, its probably ok. Just so everyone is aware, syrup is just liquid sugar: OK for oatmeal, not for grits. Try them with some crumbled hot pork sausage sometime (with salt and butter of course). That is as good as grits get.

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on August 01, 2019, 12:30:45 PM
Well congratulations @jeepcj779 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=46423) you have spawned your first grits spin off thread and topped it with the SGU explanation. Something I never managed to pull off. I guess you are officially part of the fold now. Nicely done. ;D :D 8)

Glad to help. Happy to be here.

Given enough time all posts lead to "grits"  Living in Hawaii for just over 10 years, we called Spam "Hawaiian Steak"  seemed most stores, especially the local markets, dedicated entire isles to every known spam flavor imaginable and some additional ones you didn't imagine possible.  Now back to "grits" er the topic at hand I mean.  Congrats on your forthcoming new adventure, once bitten, you'll never be the same again 

Quote from: TKehl on August 01, 2019, 02:17:35 PM
We have similar goals.  ;)  If you go see TK in KC, you may as well look at Woodmaster and their planer/moulders while you are there.  Solid little machines for what they can do.  I got both of mine used though...   And still trying to get a shop set up...

Feel free to say hi as well.  I'm about and hour East of KC.

I have been looking at the woodmaster tools. I would like to have many of them, and hopefully I can check them out when I go to KC. I think I need to wait a bit before buying though. I'll get a mill, kilns, and places to air dry and store wood before I decide to invest any more money. I think there will be a natural progression with equipment. I'm trying to figure the best way to collect logs without dropping $30G on a hwy grapple trailer. I saw some posts about a truss loader. That seems to be the most economical way to get started moving logs without having to bring the tractor.

Quote from: jeepcj779 on August 02, 2019, 12:49:32 AMI'm trying to figure the best way to collect logs without dropping $30G on a hwy grapple trailer

Don't give up on the idea of buying logs and having them delivered. That's not really an option here unless I can get the tree service guy to drop one off (no logging in the area) but I sure wish it was. When I think of how long it takes me to connect the truck and trailer, load the skidloader, drive to the location, buck and load logs, haul them back to the sawmill and unload, and go back for the skidloader I soon realize that most times it doesn't make financial sense for me to pick up logs. I'm jealous when I hear what members in other parts of the country pay to have logs delivered.

Alan

Lifting the logs is faster.  But for getting started, look up the DanG Deadhead log loader.  Maybe the same truss system you mentioned.  I need to build one...

You can also parbuckle them.  Deckover trailers work better for this, but can be done on a car trailer.  Basically, make side ramps and use a winch to roll the log up the ramps and on the trailer.  ;)

cj, I agree with starting out slow and adding what you need later.  I went from a reg. pu and 18 foot car trailer, and wheeled skid loader, to a 32 foot gooseneck, a track skid steer and a 1 ton dually pu.  I have a few tree services that will drop off if able, but it depends on the equipment they take.  to me it depends if I really want the tree, or they are nearby and need a place to drop it off.  I have milled up two locust trees for Sean, and so he goes out of his way to bring me logs.  I am in an area where logging and sawmills are rare so I am known by word of mouth. I  have all the logs that my wife thinks our yard can hold.  If you go out and buy all new, you will be the one paying for that new to used depreciation.  Also if you take your time, you may run across better deals down the road. you will prob. have more people competing for your logs in your location.  I have twice paid about a hundred bucks for nice walnut logs.  Not really a known commodity price since there are so few in my area buying logs.  If you were planning to bring a bunch of logs back home, a dedicated log trailer and grapple.  A skidsteer and grapple is what I use to load the trailer for me and others.  I have a crane attachment that I use to pull a log out of a pile, and a bucket helps keep my log yard and mill area clean and level.  I have forks to move stacked lumber and slabs. I sticker my lumber on a concrete slab in from of my shop, and move sawn logs up with the forks

 
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bringing home some maple


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firewood

Quote from: doc henderson on August 02, 2019, 10:30:03 AM
cj, I agree with starting out slow and adding what you need later.  I went from a reg. pu and 18 foot car trailer, and wheeled skid loader, to a 32 foot gooseneck, a track skid steer and a 1 ton dually pu.

    If you go out and buy all new, you will be the one paying for that new to used depreciation.  Also if you take your time, you may run across better deals down the road.

you will prob. have more people competing for your logs in your location. 

I have a 2015 2500 Ram with air suspension and a 24 ft 14K equipment trailer, so if I can get logs in the trailer, I can haul them. I was already considering trading up for a 1 ton DRW and a gooseneck. Unfortunately, the 2500 Ram is so heavy that the payload is inadequate to tow a gooseneck or 5th wheel (legally) without upfitting. I'll likely end up selling my current trailer and getting one or two others to better meet my needs. I would like one of those to be the $30,000 dump trailer with grapple, but I don't want to spend $30,000. There are no used ones for sale in my area, and the closest dealer is in N Florida, so I will have to bide my time or figure something else out. The only item I am committed to buying new is the mill. I'll try to be patient with the rest and hopefully get a good deal on something used so I don't eat all the depreciation.
  
I only found one add on CL for someone looking for logs (to mill), and that was almost 100 miles from me. I will have to invest more time researching, but my hope is that there is not high demand for logs in my area.
If things pan out and we sell our land in WV, I will have more latitude purchasing both equipment and and a quality woodlot in my area so (as a last resort) I don't have to move logs from WV. I think the most important thing for me will be establishing relationships with local tree services and land development companies to get usable logs. Collecting logs from non-business customers will be secondary, and cutting from my own land will be last. In any case, I will have to figure out how to establish a supply chain of quality logs to be successful.
I appreciate all the advice, and the time you take to give it.

One word of caution, there are quarantine matters to investigate when trucking logs across state lines, gypsy moth regulations, and a whole host of other potential legal pitfalls. Definitely do your homework first.

Quote from: Southside on August 02, 2019, 03:30:51 PM
One word of caution, there are quarantine matters to investigate when trucking logs across state lines, gypsy moth regulations, and a whole host of other potential legal pitfalls. Definitely do your homework first.

Noted. I will be sure to check the laws and regulations prior to moving any of those logs. Hopefully I won't have to go that route.

I should have added that it can also apply to crossing County lines or even "x" miles in general. Get with the area state Forester and or Forest Ranger to find out what applies. In some cases it's only one species as in Walnut where the thousand canker disease is present, look up the Emerald Ash Borer if you want to understand why these are in place. 

Quote from: TKehl on August 02, 2019, 10:03:16 AM
... for getting started, look up the DanG Deadhead log loader.  Maybe the same truss system you mentioned.

You can also parbuckle them.  Deckover trailers work better for this, but can be done on a car trailer.  Basically, make side ramps and use a winch to roll the log up the ramps and on the trailer.  ;)

The DanG is where I got the idea. Did some additional research and figured that is the way to go. I also looked into parbuckling, but I don't know if I like the stresses that would place on whatever structure I had on the side of the trailer that would house the winch. I think unloading the logs would be easier with the truss also.

I used a truck repair service crane mounted on a double axle dump trailer years ago.  You see these mounted on heavy repair vehicles driving up and down the road.  If I could get within cable distance, I could skid and load logs.  It worked great.  The crane would extend to 15 feet and had a winch.  I could deadlift 3500 lbs over the side, or lift one end of a real heavy and it up the tail gate ramp.  The crane was used and cost about $2,000 and that's exactly what I sold it for, years later.  

Remember, the magic number is 26,000 lbs total manufacturer rated weight for both the truck and trailer combination vehicle combination or you will need a CDL in any commercial venture.  Cross state lines over 10,000 lbs and you will need a DOT number.  Cross state lines over 26,000 lbs and you will need a CDL.  Exceed 10,000 lbs in some states and you will need a DOT number.

Get stopped by a friendly state trooper in violation of these rules and you may get a ticket as expensive and lengthy as mine.  If you want to learn more, go to the FMCSA website, it has all the rules and regulations.  

If you get a 2500 class truck (intentionally and strategically rated for 10,000 lbs by the manufacturer) and can get a gooseneck rated at 16,000 lbs by the manufacturer, you will have a vehicle combination that will legally be able to haul a little over a thousand board feet of logs, safely, at a time.  


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Quote from: YellowHammer on August 02, 2019, 11:15:53 PM
  If you want to learn more, go to the FMCSA website, it has all the rules and regulations.  

If you get a 2500 class truck (intentionally and strategically rated for 10,000 lbs by the manufacturer) and can get a gooseneck rated at 16,000 lbs by the manufacturer, you will have a vehicle combination that will legally be able to haul a little over a thousand board feet of logs, safely, at a time.  


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That is a nice rig. The more I think about it the more I feel like will end up getting a one ton later this year. I feel limited with my current truck and trailer, even without considering logs and milling. I can't reasonably pull a 5th wheel or goose neck trailer currently due to payload limitations. I think I will end up getting a CDL either way...I think there is a program for veterans where I can take the course for a discounted rate. I will have to look into it. Thanks for the advice on weight restrictions and licensing requirements.

quarantine,I had my land logged. They was cutting white pine in one county,putting it on a forwarder and hauling into another county,that was quarantined. Just a phone call made it alright to move and sell. :)

The requirements for a CDL and DOT are without doubt, a total pain.  I would consider it carefully before I did it.  The requirements have changed over the years and have gotten considerably more problematic with lots of increased paperwork and overhead.  Not to mention penalties. Basically, getting and maintaining a CDL or DOT registration involves paperwork, paperwork and money.  Then more paperwork and more money.  

If you decide to do it, I would advise the same route I did, hire a CDL Management company to help you through the process.  I use Foley Trucking, it's money well spent, as among other things the help and coordinate background checks, driver Motor Vehicle Reports, FMSCA medical exams, (I just got mine a couple days ago), random drug tests (You'll need to designate a company official as the officer who notifies you to go), routine drug tests, self reporting to the FMSCA organization, and increased insurance are just for starters.  You also have to know and pay a variety of road taxes, based upon mileage, keep a log book anytime you drive the truck, or install and use an Electronic Logging Device, depending on your travel mileage.  You will also need signs for your truck, and they better have the correct font! Or that's a ticket.  You'll also have to get both the truck and trailer inspected yearly, by a certified FMCSA approved inspection garage or mechanic.  That costs money.  It all cost money, and a fair bit of it.  Every year.  This doesn't even cover the driving tests, written tests, and also a newly enacted apprentice program.  Veterans can get allowances, but I'm not sure how helpful that is.  There is lots of other stuff to do, besides the driving.  You also have to keep maintenance logs and prove your short haul mileage if you use that instead of a log book.  Lots and lots of laws to know.  For example, if you drive your rig to the FMSCA test site, to get your drivers test, and are not accompanied by a CDL driver, you will get a ticket, and your test will be automatically postponed 6 months.  

Also, a word of caution, driving penalties  are more significant, and nightly jail time is not unheard of for relatively insignificant violations, especially in some states.  So make sure you have the cell phone of somebody who can come get youout of jail.  For example, I was threatenened with jail time for one of my infractions.  I thought they (Friendly State Trooper) was joking.  He was not.  I told a friend about it and he knew a guy who got to spend the night in jail because he had let his medical card expire, so it was illegal to drive without it, and off to the slammer.  

Also, if you get an OOS violation, (Out Of Service) violation, your rig will be impounded immediately, so you'd better have a back up vehicle and buddy to get you home.  I got an OOS violation for having loose bark chips on my trailer (Unsecured Load) as well as not having my emergency brake cable not properly secured to part of my truck frame, not part of the hitch (which is where I hooked it). No jail time for me, but I was taken out of service in the parking lot until I fixed the issues.

You'll also need a commercial tag, to the tune of about a thousand bucks a year.

To make sure all the laws and regulations are followed, it's Federal Law that all new CDL or DOT drivers will get a thorough State Trooper Audit within 18 months.  Any violations will be found, fixed or penalties enforced.

As an alternative, if you get a DOT number, but not a CDL, some of the more pain in the rear requirement will be waived, notable some of the road taxes, drug tests, random drug tests, employee training programs, and stuff.  That's why you see so many big panel and rental trucks with big signs on their side "Under 26,000 GMVR."  Remember, it's not what you are hauling, it's what your rig is capable of hauling.  

There are many, many people who ignore these laws and good luck to them. I did for a while, and Nope, Not a Good Idea.  

There is a big push to get non compliant gooseneck and fifth wheel rigs aligned with the laws.  A year or so ago I got a call from a guy in Chattanooga who had bought my old trailer from a dealership and he was remiss on some of its paperwork, and was asking if I had it.  Nope, sorry.  The trailer had been impounded for lack of paperwork and his only option was to buy a new one as it would take weeks to find and clear the paperwork and he had work to to.  

Commercial drivers lisceses, either DOT or CDL, are no joke, and I remembered old guys  that used to say it was easy now say how difficult it is to maintain.  In the real world, the trucking company had people who manage and keep up with all this stuff.  If you are a one man operation like me, then you get to do it all.  

Lots of people think having a farm tag will solve all this, but it only applies to primary processing operations.  For example, it's legal to carry logs but not lumber for a business.  However, DOT regs and registration are still enforced.  It's not unheard of for the Troopers to sit at the local cattle auctions, and write tickets to farmers who are in violation and don't have a DOT number. 

Oh yeah, better get used to going across truck scales.  

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YellowHammer is spot on there, and has the experience to back it.  Having owned a small fleet of semi's before the crash and then doing some hot shot work after it, today I focus on what makes me money and I just pay for the trucking.  If you are not hauling something of value both ways you are loosing money, and a 10 year old pickup trying to be legal is going to be a very expensive endeavor to stay out of the violation category so your option is to buy a $60K or more truck which can legally haul say $1.50 worth of freight / mile, at $0.50 / mile operation cost if you are only loaded one way now you are only getting $0.50 / mile worth of value out of your investment and time, or $30 / hour for your time and $60K-$80K investment, subtract your regulatory / paperwork time and money since that does not earn you any income and you are in the mid $20 range.  

You don't have to saw much lumber to make $25 / hour, no fool is going to cut right in front of you on a down hill slope, and there is no worry about getting a "repair / defect ticket" for a hose that "is going to come loose at some point", and you have to bring the vehicle to a garage for "repairs" and getting the defect ticket signed off on - yes I got one of those once on a brand new semi - had under 20K on the clock, the garage guy just shook his head and wrote that no repair was necessary or possible.   

The hauling horror stories of Yellowhammer, Southside and MikeBelben have me rethinking the gooseneck that we bought and rebuilt a few years ago.  It is convenient not to have to haul two trailers to pick up a few logs but the wrong, overly enthusiastic enforcement officer could certainly put a damper on a fellow working hard and trying to occasionally make a buck.  

I once got a ticket from a marine patrol officer for having the lower half of my boat's i.d. numbers that had faded slightly due to sun exposure.  He was intent on writing me a ticket for an illegal snook that turned out to be within the slot limit after it thawed a bit and was able to be properly measured.  A highway patrolman once gave me a seatbelt ticket even though I was wearing my seatbelt in the appropriate manner.  One night in 1989, John and I got pulled over for "sounding like we were driving too fast".  I asked the friendly officer how fast did it sound like I was going?

I could probably get in trouble for either of my/our trailers (we built the blue one almost 20 years ago).
The brand new radials had more sidewall flex on the bridge expansion joints.  We blew out two tires at 5 a.m. in west Georgia on that Sunday morning.  We found a tire store open in Albany that mounted a couple of new tires.  We removed the fender to ensure we would have clearance for the rest of the trip.  The fenders were moved in an inch since.

When the GN is loaded with longleaf pine or longleaf and a tractor on the back it is really more of a load than my truck wants to tow.  The truck has a 7.3 and a six speed.

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Well, now I have a headache. I guess I will have to do my research before I dive in to a one ton with 20,000lb goose neck. Looks like a 2500/250 towing 16000lb might be the reasonable limit. Like I said before, my 2500 weighs 8000lbs with no load, so I am limited on payload (I might be forced to buy a Ford!). That is the reason I was considering a one ton. Once again, I appreciate the continued advice and the passing on of experience, good and bad.

For a while there, I thought the mention of grits and/or SGU's was a thread-killer.

I like grits with a little maple syrup, or honey, but then again I'm a Yankee so what do I know> I remember the first time I had grits it was compliments of Havloc County SC. I was heading to FLA, in a VW beetle back in 1974, I was 16 on a learners permit, and no registration. We had grits for breakfast every morning that weekend while I waited to see the judge. Hay this kinda plays into the have all your paperwork straight part of this thread as well as the grits aspect!

  I guess grits are really divisive, or at least polarizing enough to shut down a topic. Speaking of polarizing and divisive, I started this topic indicating I would be getting a Cooks or a Timberking. When asked why not Woodmizer, I said it was because of the head movement I saw in videos, both on Woodmizer's site and on individual videos on YouTube, even though there is no indication it negatively affects lumber. Well, the more research I do, videos I watch, and posts I read on the forum, the less sure I am which mill is best for me. I definitely want full hydraulics, a wide throat, ability to cut longer  timbers (with extension), and the most mill I can afford ($50K+/- 5K). I guess I can afford more than that, but there are things to consider other than the mill, like a mill shed, covered area for air drying, log handling/transport, kiln eventually, etc., and I need to be able to afford those things also. I plan to be mostly mobile at first, milling at customer locations. Any milling I do at my location will be for my own use at first, then when I have the necessary infrastructure, I will start milling, kiln drying, and possibly producing finished products at my location. How and when I expand will depend largely on market conditions in my area.
 In any case, I would like to know, from those who have actually operated the mill you are commenting on, what are the best features on your mill, and also where your mill falls short. If it helps inform your answers, my vision of what I will be doing most resembles what Magicman, Peter Drouin, and WV Sawmiller do. They all seem to have semi-solo operations, do a lot of work, and all have Woodmizers. Please don't use that last line to tell me I answered my own question. I would still like to hear pros and cons for different mills. Thanks.

jeep have you got to see and run a few mills in your area?  the prob. with us is, we all love what we have been using. wide cut throat is good, hydraulics good, power good.  close dealer nice.  helpful dealer important.  It is like a computer program.  after you get used to it, you learn how to overcome issues and would not want to change.  like moving to UK and driving on the "wrong" side of the road.  

When I was a boy and we where coming along the road, about dark, load of hay about 10 ' wide, no lights, no triangle at that time and a state trooper came along, he would follow us home so we wouldn't get hit. Now look where we are.

Hua?

Cooks has a New mill that is very interesting.
Wide cut with production mill portable too!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22539/rps20190823_182805.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566610004)
 

JeepCJ779
Thanks for your service. 

Have you contacted TK to see how may have a mill in your area you could visit?  You could do the same with the other brands and go visit.  I did this before I purchased and it was good help. I ended up with a Woodmizer LT35 from Carolina Woodmizer and have been happy with my decision.  Plus I have a dealer close by and use them for blade resharpening.  In Va where our land is located is a person with a couple of TK's and a Woodmaster equipment and uses them in his business.

Dealer support is important,but....... I have a husky saw. I've had it 12 years,been in the shop over night 3 times. I have a NH tractor,been in the shop once,too much rock digging at The Farm, ::)  I have a Heatmor OWB,only get blower motors from him,I have various other equipment,IF I said IF I have to contact them,I have to hunt for the number.  Dealer support is important,but I don't need them too often. If I did,tells me I made a wrong choice. ;)

Doc
 I have not been able to run or look at any except on the internet. I am "stuck" in Hawaii until I retire this spring. I understand about people liking their mills and being able to get around any shortcomings. I have watched many videos and have read many posts and web pages about the different mills. There are things I like and dislike about all of them, which is why I am undecided. I can appreciate the benefit of the wide cut throat on the TK mills, but a 3" difference is likely not worth $10,000. There are other advantages to the TK, like the use of more hydraulic components vs electric. I could argue both sides of that, depending on which mill I owned. Most mills seem to have advantages and disadvantages, and it seems like mill preference is based on what people already own. There is a psychological component to that I bet. I will get hands on eventually, probably when I go on leave in October. I won't make a decision until I do, but in the mean time I will gain as much knowledge as I can from others' experience.

redbeard
 I saw the Cook's 44 in their catalog. I asked them about it when corresponding through email. Besides being wider throat, it will not come with a drag back and will have 19" band wheels. Bang=Buck? Don't know.

samandothers
 You are welcome. Proud to serve. I have contacted TK, but I have not asked about local owners. I will heed your advice when I am closer to going on leave.

thecfarm
 I guess I won't know how much dealer support I will need until I need it.

Thanks for all the replies.

Dealer support is a very important thing, and not support before the sale, but support after. It can not be underestimated, especially when climbing the learning curve of sawmilling.  

Even if you are sawing for yourself, there's something nice to be able to call someone and immediately gets parts shipped, or having someone knowledgeable on the phone who has been there and done that.  

Look at the length of the warranty.  That is vital.

Sawmills and other sawmill equipment break down, it's inevitable, and generally most often during the break in period, which is why it's called "break in."

Here are two personal examples of product support from sawmill equipment companies that I have had direct experience.  I will not mention any names, that's not the point.  The point is, both of these are extremes on either side of the spectrum, and both left a lasting, never to be forgotten impression.  Both are big name sawmill and sawmill equipment manufacturers.  

On one piece of equipment, a custom build, arrived by semi truck and I very quickly I realized it was performing inadequately.  Something was Wrong.  I couldn't figure it out. I called up the manufacturer at 3:00 pm in the evening, before they closed. I discussed the problem with them, they gave me a few things try, and still no joy.  I was Not Happy.  So I emailed them after hours and laid it all out.  At 0900 the NEXT morning, they called me back said they had already had a meeting in-house to discuss the issue, and had their repair and service guy packing the truck to leave their facility at noon.  He showed up later that very same day after dark, and we started working it the next morning.  He drove 6 hours to make the service call.  Six hours.  No charge  Incredible service.  

On the other side of the spectrum, on another piece of sawmill related equipment, well, let's just say the customer service was inadequate.  Its been years, but it still aggravats me so much I can't even think about it without getting royally PO'd and lets just say, I will never, never, and never buy a piece of equipment from them. Ever.  

In both cases, the companies had good enough reputations for me to buy from.  Both companies had pieces of equipment that for one reason or another, had mechanical issues.  However, it was how they handled the after purchase service that was so remarkable, and left such a lasting memory.  

Yellowhammer
  Thanks for the advice. I admire your operation. Woodmizer would definitely have an advantage when it comes to proximity. There is a dealer a couple hours from me. I will visit them in October during an event they are hosting. I have heard nothing but good things about Woodmizer service, so I am not concerned about service from them. Their warranty, while not the best in the industry, is probably adequate.

I thought about it for 15 years and liked that the co. was in KC.  you are in process and will make a good decision.  You really cannot go wrong with most of the sponsors on this site.  Most of them you get what you pay for as they are all following each other and compete.  so if they charge more, they at least try to point out what you get extra.  If I speak with Matt, I will see if there is any equipment in HI. You can decide what is important for you , and what ever you get you will most likely love.  The newest truck my dad ever owned had 3,000 miles when he bought it.  He bragged about his "jimmy"  like it had magical powers pulling trailer ect.  still have the old 1971 GMC.

First I would like to thank you for your dedication and service in the military even though i am Canadian. Military service in any of the allied nations armed forces is an important function of a working democracy.

As has been stated previously AFTER sale service is the most important factor in your success as a milling operation, how ever I will take it one notch higher; The best service is the service you DON'T need. For this peace of mind you will pay a premium initial price for your mill that will be saved many times over during your general operation and production. Not to mention the additional production you will realize.

The sponsors of the forum for the most part build good equipment, some better than others.

Its been 15 years since I walked the path you are on. I spent 2 years looking AND more importantly offering free labor to owners of mills just to get a feel for the different brands.

At the start I had my eye on a mill that I thought was going to my mill of choice based on their web site alone. After 2 years and about 250 hours of stacking lumber behind 5 different mills I ended up with a mill I hadn't  even considered looking at when i started looking.

Even at that I did a whole lot of upgrades because I should have gone up a model at least and probably 2 models.

I still harass my dealer that they undersold me when I bought the mill.

I own a Woodmizer LT40 hydraulic that today I call "Almost Super" as a result of the upgrades I've done, all of which are documented/described on this site.

IMHO

Woodmizer stands head and shoulders above ALL the others in spite of there being some very good competition to them.

As and older gent you will very quickly come to appreciate of the ergonomics of a Woodmizer.

In this regard they stand alone in field the rest do not qualify to stand on. There are other factors that help them stay there as well but that is something we could discuss in private if you would like too.

Orange sawmills and Green tractors occupy the same space when it come to quality, reliability and resale value. At the end of the day, ownership of those 2 colors ultimately cost less to own and operate.      

Jeepcj779,

I was where you are 18 months ago.  You would be welcome to come up and spend a day around my operation.  About 1/3 of what I do is sawing and selling, about 1/3 is custom sawing from my logs or theirs, about 1/3 is portable custom sawing.

Tree service logs are a shaky way to have a supply of logs.  I only accept select tree service logs, mostly walnut, cherry and white oak.  I find metal in 70% or more of yard trees.  I've learned the hard way that tree service folks aren't particularly attentive to their measuring and sawing.  Prime logs often aren't cut to marketable lengths or are ruined by sawing technique.

I'm either cutting my own trees or acquiring logs from loggers for lumber sales.

I've been down the "get a bigger truck", "need a drying shed", "need a kiln" paths etc in the last year.  Every situation and every market is different.  I'm finding most of what I do doesn't require a kiln. The great majority of what I saw is utility lumber, outbuilding framing and board and batten siding.

The whole business of hauling logs and complying with DOT requirements is an endeavor of its own.  Do your homework on this issue. 

Come on up sometime.  I'm about 2 1/2 hours away from Dunn.

  I'll agree the best service is service not needed, it's been at least 3 years since I called Timberking.  Nice simple mill without a lot of troublesome electric thing to go wrong.  Read the post on here about troubles with mills.  Steve

Doc,
 Thanks. Unfortunately the only dealer that is local is WM. Cooks is 10 hours and TK 16 hours. Proximity of the dealer is definitely a consideration.

Bandmill Bandit,
 Thank you. I hope our democracies remain intact for a long time to come. I will try to get around to several different mills before I drop a bunch of $ on my own. I will buy the most mill I can afford. I have never owned a piece of equipment I thought was too big or that I would not outgrow. When I buy it will be for now and for future expansion. Thank you for your perspective on WM.

SawyerTed,
 I may take you up on that offer. PM sent.

Steve,
 Whichever mill I choose, I hope it is as trouble free as yours. I still have a few months to figure things out before decision time.

Thanks all for the replies.

Mechanical ability and experience has alot to do with "needing" service and as former Ag Equipment mechanic of 20 plus years I do my own service that many people would call a company mechanic to have done. That does give me an advantage and also does save me money. But then I do have a lot of $ tied up in tools to the point of over kill for a milling operation.  

As a result Woodmizer has only been to my yard once in the 12 years since I bought my mill and it was not to service the mill even though they did a quick once over at my request just to check if I was missing any thing. 

The reason for the visit was to look at a couple of my mods while they were at the local Ag Expo. 

  

That's not as true as it was in the past.  Todays reliance on computer controls, sensor input, resistance reading instead of voltage, tier 4 compliance, etc has complicated things to the point if you don't have the diagnostic software and complete electrical schematics often there is nothing you can do.  For example, my 70 has 5 ECU's on it, they all talk to each other, they share info, they are connected to various engine and hydraulic sensors, etc, and when one thing goes wrong, nothing works.  

Yes Southside, that is becoming a factor for  sure with newer equipment. My Mill is an 07 so still pretty much analog. I do own a fair bit of diagnostic tooling and have a son that is computer systems engineer so that stuff is not a real serious handicap for me BUT it is a pain in the backside at times.
 
 

i agree.  the more you know the more you know and can do.  Timberking has been to my place once to deliver the mill.  all other problems were diagnosed via a phone conversation.  recently my encoder went bad.  a new one was 700$.  but would require a bracket mod since they changed how they did it and a shield to reduce heat from exhaust.  Or I could buy the same model from the encoder manufacturer for about 500$.  Or I could send it in to get it refurbished which i did and it cost 90$ and 20 dollars shipping with a report that channel b went out so they replaced a board that fixes all channels.  i will make a shield to block heat from the exhaust.  i got all the info from TK.  they helped me make the right decision for me, based on my ability.  they first had me check all the wire connections at 5 specific locations.  i have been to the co. a few times when ever I am in KC.  instead of shipping, i have a niece and nephew who live in KC, and parents nearby, so they shuttle blades back and forth for sharpening.  The sawmills hold value so you really cannot go wrong.  Mine is 7 years old and I know I can get out of it what I paid and have in it.  WM has a lot of folks on the forum, and if that is best for you i am sure you will be happy.  

Proximity to a dealer or manufacturer/fabricator is sometimes equated to proximity to service.  Sometimes it's two different things.  Having service and support is most important after purchase.  I can repair most anything short of something requiring specialized equipment or tools, if I have the tech support necessary.

Sometimes being close to a dealer doesn't mean they can service what they sell.  Fortunately, Wood-mizer here in NC does both very well as I'm sure is the case with all WM dealers.  Having a nationwide network also helps tremendously.  I damaged a velocity fuse on my log lift.  My NC dealer didn't have the part in stock but the Georgia facility did.  Wendy placed my order through the Georgia dealer and my parts were here next day.  

Bandmill Bandit, Southside, Doc, SawyerTed
 I wish I had the experience you have from working on Ag equipment in you previous career. I guess I still have time to learn. I have been a maintenance test pilot on Blackhawks for the last 20 years or so, and I think I have a fair amount of skill in that arena, but unfortunately my skills are mostly in troubleshooting, diagnosis, and ground/flight testing. I don't generally make the repairs. If there is an issue with a mechanical component on the aircraft, getting it repaired is pretty straight forward a vast majority of the time. When it comes to electrical components however, troubleshooting and repair is generally not that straight forward and will involve a platoon of "gremlins" that have to be worked out of the systems. Fix one problem, discover another, etc. In the end, electrical component "repair" generally consists of replacing said component and returning the faulty one to the manufacturer for disposition. These components are very often very expensive. That speaks to Southside's comment that diagnosis and repair are not what they used to be. Replacement and manufacturer level overhaul is generally required to "repair" modern, computer controlled electronics. I am sure any of the major manufacturers can trouble shoot their equipment to a faulty component. My concern is what it will cost me when I have to replace that component. Doc's experience with the repair he was able to get from the manufacturer is probably the exception, not the rule I think.
 I think I am pretty handy around the house and I am mechanically inclined, but I am inexperienced and generally untested when it comes to repairing equipment like a saw mill. User-level (me) maintenance and repair capability will be one of the main criteria I use when making a decision on a mill. 
 Thanks all for the replies.

If you know how to follow trouble shooting directions, that is half the battle.  If you can describe on the phone to a tech. what the problem is and follow the directions, then you are good.  there is a learning curve and part of that will be your first, second and third problems.  each time you fix something with or without the manufacturer, you will learn more about your mill.  also if you have a problem, it is likely someone here (on the forum) with the same brand has had and fixed that problem before.  pick what you want and with your military background, you will be leaps and bounds ahead of most starting out.  i know the owner, salesman and lead tech at Timberking by name.  it sounds like most brands know they need to offer good support.  many components are plug and play so even the computer stuff, is dx. and replace.  If you get new you will have a warranty, but also pay new price.  used will have more problems potentially, but save you  up front.  i agree with not spending a whole budget on the mill, so you can add stuff later.  I like that you could mill the wood for a solar kiln, and get it up and running for little cash.  i think we are now looking forward to your retirement almost as much as you!

Warranty and service.  
Some specific questions to ask the sawmill or heavy equipment manufacturers.  I have been burned by these topics so I consider them important.

How long is the warranty?

What exactly, does the warranty cover? I had one manufacturer tell me that if they had to replace every bearing that went out in their equipment under warranty, they would go out of business.  They covered the first bearing set but balked at the second set, all within the "warranty" period.  I was told I was running the machine "too hard".  I was shocked, are you kidding me?  So this begs the question, as to what is covered and what is considered a non warranty "wear item"?  

How soon do they ship parts? What is their policy for priority mail? Some manufacturers ship next day, as a routine and cover the shipping.  Some ship next week or snail mail.  Do you have to pay for the priority shipping?

Who do you have to convince a part is malfunctioning?  Local rep, president of the company, who?  How are the big fixes handled?  How are the little fixes handled?  How many people are seriously knowledgeable on your particular machine?  What happens when he goes on vacation?  I've had that experience, "Well, he's really the only one who can really understand that issue, but he won't be back for a week.  Can you wait?"  Seriously??

Same thing on the engine or electric motor.  I love diesels and three phase electrics in my machines, but I'm sooo tired of "Oh, we don't actually have a diesel or electrical mechanic on staff, why don't you call the local repair  shop who handles that brand?"  

Is the company big enough to have a dedicated repair and service specialist who will get on the road and help if needed?  Some do, some don't.  Some of the ones that do will charge mileage, even on a warranty call.  So you still get to pay, even though the machine is under warranty.  Some will send a truck out, and they eat the cost.  I had one company who had an extremely competent service contract staff, who had me FaceTime my phone video to him, real time, while he troubleshot the problem. "No, No, see that little gap in the frame right there, stick your phone in the little hole and let me look around."  I was in Alabama, he was in Louisiana.  He found the problem in about 5 minutes.  I had been looking for much longer than that.  Very cool.    

I had another repair guy help reassemble a machine until 1:30 in the morning, because I was a business and he was a pro and knew that without the machine running, I wasn't making money.  That's top notch service.  And no, I didn't have to pay his mileage or overtime.  

How far is the nearest dealer?  Sometimes, its nice to have the option to drop the machine off at the dealer and just say "Fix it, and hurry up about it."

On the bigger pieces of equipment I buy, I will travel to the dealer and meet the staff, in person.  I also want to know who is top dog at the facility, and who I need to call when or if the poop hits the fan.  I bring the check and have them do a full test run, to their specs, to make sure it meets their specs, which are my specs.  I've been burned enough now, of some real high dollar equipment, that I have a basic conversation.  Typically, I say, "I'm bringing the certified check, so when I get there, run the machine, and if it performs as it should, I hand you the check and then I load it up, and go home.  If it doesn't, then I don't hand you the check, you give me my deposit back, and I go home."  Simple as that.

I'm not a guy who is afraid of trouble shooting and fixing things.  By the same token, just because I can, doesn't mean I should have to.  If my truck breaks down, the dealer doesn't ask me to get the wrenches and fix it myself.  They have a repair program in place to handle different situation.  Maybe they send a service crew, maybe they send a tow truck, either way, it gets "handled".  When buying a mill, or other expensive piece of machinery or equipment, I'd find out the details.

Doc,
I think initially I will need the comfort of a warranty period as I get familiar with the operation and maintenance of my equipment. I should have all the idiosyncrasies of the mill pretty much figured out by the end of the warranty period if I am running it as much as I hope to be. Troubleshooting I can handle, but as I said previously, the replacement cost for those dxed electrical components can be exorbitant.

YellowHammer,
I will definitely look deeper into the warranties of the different manufacturers, and I will add the items you mentioned to my list of questions for the manufacturers I am considering. Also, I will try to visit each of the manufacturing facilities before I commit to a purchase. The cost of a couple plane tickets is worth the peace of mind. Speaking of trucks, the mills I am considering cost as much as my truck did 4 years ago. It has a 6.7L diesel, and the manufacturer is able to warranty and perform maintenance on the vehicle, to include the motor. I'm not sure why the mill manufacturers would not be able to at least handle the coordination with your local electrical or diesel repair facilities while the mill was still under warranty.

Thank you again for the perspective.

There's been a world of great advice given. I will add a few observations. The last couple of years I experienced increasingly more frequent "back issues". Reaching/pulling the wrong direction and the next morning unable to put my boots on or climb into the truck. Sold my last mill back in Feb. and not an issue since. Shoulders are probably entirely different but stacking/pulling lumber can break you down.

Waste management. Waste management. Waste management. You have already been counseled on stickers, stacking, logs etc. Dealing with waste is one of the biggest challenges. Sawing is fun. Shoveling sawdust is not. Half a dozen logs and you will have a pile of slabs your tractor won't pick up. 

Tractors. I got one. I love it and wouldn't be without one. Next to worthless for a sawmill loader. Going to saw up a few blown over trees on the farm on Saturday its the perfect tool for the job. Use as a loader to support a 50K sawmill? Won't work very good or very long. If your going to get anything done your going to have to figure on a decent loader. Quick attach bucket/forks,5K+ lift capacity, 10'+ at pins to load/unload log trucks.

It is a long and expensive process to go from log to finished product. Unlikely you can justify efficient equipment for a one man show to handle the whole process. Very few if any industrial level operations do more than a few steps of it. You certainly can do it on a hobby level, it just won't be very efficient(profitable).

Everyone jumps in with a sawmill and try's to build from the log. I did too and built a pretty successful green lumber operation. That required a lot of employees and insurance/government interaction I didn't much enjoy. It was very profitable but I sold most of it and dismantled the rest. Not how I wanted to spend life. If I was going to do a "do over" I would start with one of the new I-Dry kilns and work forward and backward from there. Same entry cost as a high end mill. You need no labor. You have a finished and "usable" product that is no longer perishable. You can sell a board at time to hobbyists, build trailer load bundles if you want to do wholesale, or have a product you can process into finished furniture if that's your goal.

The market for green lumber is much more limited than most realize. Yes, you can saw out your shed. However rewarding that may be its really a waste of time. Bandsaws make very good lumber but its slow to build with. You will see no commercial sawmill saw much of there own lumber. Treated posts, pre-engineered trusses, and metal siding. Green lumber isn't really ready for much of anything other than drying. Air drying and solar kiln is fine for hobby projects but won't dry enough product to sustain much of a cash flow.

Mills hold there value. Its your dream. Buy it. Try it and hopefully success will follow. The resale after depreciation means you are "risking" a small portion of the purchase price. 

The biggest risk to the whole venture is the "sawmill bug". Once bitten its pretty much terminal. No known cure. Management of the symptoms is about all you can hope for. Best of luck in whatever path you take!

  As far as the $50K sawmill goes, I agree with you that if things don't work out, I can sell it and not have to absorb too much loss. I can deal with that. I have been looking into what to do with the waste material. I will be chipping the slabs or banding/sawing to firewood length. I will likely give them away after the needs of my neighbors and I are fulfilled. The business model I am currently planning for will initially have the majority of my waste staying with the customer, but if I end up sawing more in my location, I will have to develop a system and acquire the equipment to deal with it. I have $ saved for auctions if equipment I "need" becomes available, like a skid steer loader.
  I am going to build two or three solar kilns (to start) as I need  them. I figured several small kilns might be better to begin with, until I need additional capacity. The ones I am looking at are modular and do about 300 bdft at a time, but can be scaled up without too much difficulty. I might go beyond that into a powered kiln and equipment for finished products, but only if there is money in it.
  I live in the sticks, in hurricane country. I expect business to be slow to moderate normally (lots of barns and shops around here), with intermittent periods of non-stop sawing after storms. We'll see. I don't know exactly what to expect, but I'll have a good time finding out.

Congratulations on your upcoming retirement. It'll take you about 12 months to "de-institutionalize" yourself. I'm about 3.5 hrs. north of you in central VA. I can't offer you sage advice like what these fine folks have given so far, but I can share "newbie" advice after doing almost exactly what you're planning. You're more than welcome to stop by...we can swap war stories and mill a log or two.

Thanks. I'm going to do my best to pre-de-institutionalize myself. Heck, I'm a Warrant Officer, and we are typically hard to institutionalize in the first place, so hopefully I won't have far to go. I appreciate the offer, and I might take you up on that once we get settled back home.

For those of you who own Woodmizer mills, probably the LT 40 hydraulic and up that have the option for the walk along, ride along, stationary control, or wireless remote, which do you prefer and why? For those with the drag back, is it useful to you? Do you have issues with the small size of the outfeed table? I'm still trying to decide which mill will be best (still plan to work mostly solo, maybe with customer providing offbearer as I have seen others do), and I've narrowed it down to a couple manufacturers and I am trying to determine layout and ergonomics to see if I can figure which mill and layout will work best for me.

I have the LT 40 walk along that I have upgraded to what I call almost  super because it isn't a factory Super. I have a seat and manual board return.

Drag back on a non super is a non starter unless you are only cutting 1X material.
I built my own out feed and scramble table. Yes! VERY useful and labor/back/time saving.

Ergonomically the Wood mizer trapezoid design with cantilever head is so far above ALL competition for every aspect of milling AND service/ maintenance. Wood mizer invented the class and is the sole occupant at that level.

Take a look at a few of my pics to see the lay out I use. It's pretty efficient a simple to do and can be modified to fit various land configurations.

This one is very typical. Very minimal distance to cover moving finished product to stacks for banding and removal. Made one minor change the next day on this set up. Swapped saw dust pile with the 6X9 tie stack which saved steps for the tail man and removal time for the loader.
This configuration gave me a production average of just over 3700BF per day for almost 3 months (83 days total days on site for 61 sawings days ) for this job.

Best day was well over 8000BF (16 hrs total, 14.5 saw time)  worst day was barely 300BF.  

Feel free to IM me and we can exchange contact info and I can chat with you.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_0563.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1367204054)
 

This was a job for a 1/3 mile of 1"X6"X12' fence board split to 6 footers.
The logs in sawed with finished lumber into the pick up and trash to the loader. was pretty fast.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_1414.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1465962644)
 



This one was all 16' 2X material. Logs in lumber to the dump trailer and trash to the fire wood rack. Just over 12000 BF in 3 and half days. When the job was done the it was ALL done. 2 old men and 2 kids.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_2051.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1535472877)


 
If I was going to trade up it would be a minimum LT40 Super with wireless remote and the yanmar diesel and every thing my mill currently has on it. Some would be bought factory installed some I would still do myself cause I like my mods better. Id probably do a LT50 if it actually came down to doing it.        

I started with a walk along and now have a remote with drag back, absolutely no comparison when it comes to production and labor savings, especially when sawing alone.  Lets use even numbers to keep it simple for a single man operation.

With a walk along you saw your board - 10 seconds to make the cut, now you raise the head and either remove the board and carry it or toss it into a pile of some sort - 10 seconds and 50 lbs of weight you just lifted, now you walk back to the control unit and walk with the head as it returns to the head of the log - another 15 seconds if you can walk backward fast and not trip over the tire or sawdust.  So you have sawn one board in 35 seconds and lifted 50 lbs, of that time your saw was only earning you $$ 28% of the time.  

Enter the drag back.  10 seconds to saw the board, lift the head and drag back the board, for this example I will use the same 10 seconds but the reality is that it can be a lot shorter time if you are in big wood and forward speed is slower, of course in 6" wood you will be zinging along, so lets average it out to the same.  The board is on the table, in my case there is a set of takeaway rollers there to so part of it may be on those.  Now you drop the head to the next cut and send the saw off.  You have options, you can stand there and watch the cut, or you can deal with the board on your table, put it into an edger, sticker it, or stack it on the rollers depending on what you are doing - but that happens while your saw is making the cut, so no additional time is assigned to that board and if you feed it into an edger or otherwise send it down rollers you have not lifted that 50 lbs and you have 20 seconds into the board production, a 43% reduction in time, that begins to add up pretty quickly.  

Running a successful sawmill is all about the material handling, master that and you have it made, the actual sawing is a pretty small % of the overall input from log to lumber.     

South side you did an excellent description. Your numbers are about as close as any one will ever get em. I figure the board return, scramble table with a good infeed  rollway and a GOOD helper will have the blade in the log 75% of your sawing time. 

Not sure anyone could improve much on those numbers. A power rollway might give you an extra 5 minutes sawing in an hour. Hence the reason I don't have one yet. The cost to build one is hard to see through to a profit and it changes transportability significantly. 
  

Bandmill Bandit,
 I was trying to decide between the stationary command control option or the remote. I don't think you can get both. I like the idea of the remote, but I was told some people have issues with the inability to adjust the Accuset from the remote. I don't think that would be an issue for me just starting out though. I appreciate the layout pictures. They are really helpful with visualizing the work flow. If I go with Woodmizer, which is getting more likely by the day, it will be the LT50 Wide diesel with debarker and lubemizer. Maybe a seat down the road. Also considering a 24' extension if I find there is a market for that sort of thing in my area. Do you see any disadvantages to the command control (stationary) operator's station? Other than the outfeed table, what mods do you have that are most useful?

Southside,
I think your assessment of the importance of material handling is right on the mark. While I am totally lacking any experience yet, I spend more time researching infrastructure, set-up, material handling equipment, and material management than I do researching the mills. That, and the advice of several FF members similar to yours shows the importance of material management.

The first thing you find out when you get a decent sawmill is that the actual sawmilling goes easy and fast, everything else is the slowdown.

When thinking about material handling, it's tough to get your head wrapped around it, so use millions of pounds, not thousands of pounds,  for your decision making criteria.  A log is loaded hydraulically, but every single piece of wood that comes off the mill must be handled, either by hand, by automation, or whatever including the sawdsut.  So assume 8 tons per thousand bdft for logs, then a very modest thousand bdft milled per week, 16,000 lbs x 52 = 832,000 lbs, cleared from the mill per year.    What goes on must come off.  Now multiply that by 20 years, that's 16.6 million pounds.  Seeing as how you will certainly mill a lot more than that, soon the number become stupid high.   

Now sticker the wood.  Then unsticker the wood.  Then run it through a planer, then etc, etc, etc.  Just keep multiplying the numbers. 

So thats where my phase "Take steps to save steps" come from.  Always look to improve your process.

I find the board return to be the most production enhancing feature coupled with the out feed and scramble table.

From there it is a toss up of convenience and productivity. The laser reduces initial log set up time/ the FAOs reduce and simplify mill setup/knock down time.

IF I do buy a new mill the 2 contenders would be the LT40SHD38G with wireless remote with a full load of options or the LT50 set up the same.

Setting the Accuset from the remote box might be an inconvenience sometimes but it will generally be a time saver and allows you to get out of the blowing sawdust when the wind changes. You have to go to the control station to load and rotate a fresh log any way and that is when you adjust the computer. Not sure that is really an inconvenience.          

My thinking/leaning is as follows;
1) LT50 loaded up with the options in a wireless remote configuration
2) LT40 Super. Same as above.

The 2nd operator station choice would be walk along with a seat and that would be a distant 2nd choice.    

Price point  would be the deciding factor. Production capability difference of those 2 mills is negligible. The vertical side supports and chain turner are nice but for their value the price is kinda on the high side
   
I don't like the stationary control console. For me its in the way. I would seriously consider having the local hydraulic shop do a wireless remote swap for the hydraulic functions but that would be if had a million dollars that I didn't need.    

Howdy, I've been away so didn't see this post previously. 

A word of caution, I've been away because I'm a beat up jarhead who loves to work hard, loves milling but who's body doesn't agree with.  I love milling, but if can be (can be) a tough job for someone with shoulder issues!  I have a permanently separated clavicle (USMC injury), two bad discs in my neck (same injury), trouble with the AC Joint (ditto), arthritis in the hands (infantry much?), tendonitis in the arms (ditto) and more.

I do hope to get back to milling but now recognize that the $15/hr helper is a must, or the customer does the work (for me that is most of the time anyway).  I know it can be done, but I have to adjust to those circumstances and be honest with myself as to what I can do.  heck, even now typing is an issue and there is no way I can start a chainsaw with my right arm until some repairs are done.

Don't be discouraged, but be honest with yourself because the first time that 2000lbs log doesn't want to go the way you think it should while you are reefing on a 5 foot logright cant hook your shoulder might remind you that you are NOT 20something anymore :D

Congrats on the retirement, welcome home and good luck!

Yellowhammer,
  I hope to leave my waste products (initially) mostly at customer locations. With the amount of milling I plan to do for myself, I think I will be able to use the several tons of waste making woodchips, firewood, mulch, etc. I have neighbors who are excited for me to get a mill. Waste will be free to them (milling will not).
  Once I can assess demand in my area for mobile milling, I can make the determination if that is enough work/income for me or if I need to buy logs and go through drying and finishing. As you indicated, that will create tons of waste for me to handle each month, in addition to handling and re-handling the lumber. I will also incur the expense of all the material handling equipment, finishing equipment, and infrastructure necessary to complete those operations, on top of having to find and maybe transport logs and dispose of the waste.
  I am not going to bite all that off at once. As I said, it will be an incremental process. I can add to my operations as required, if required. Your advice on thinking in terms of adding some zeros to the expected waste volume definitely puts a different perspective on material handling. Once I get some skill with the easy and fast part, we'll see what happens.

Bandmill Bandit,
  Is the laser worth $900? Maybe it would be if it was a daylight viewable green laser, but not red. I have decided if I go with WM, it will be the LT50. It comes with the extras I would want anyway. They are on sale right now, but I don't know that they will be next summer when I am ready to purchase.
  With your advice and others, I think I'll be going with the remote/walk along combo. It seems like a could use the ride along seat with that also if I wanted to.

OlJarhead,
  I have pretty standard joint issues for an Army pilot my age (neck, back, knees, feet, etc.), with my only outlier being the shoulder I had replaced. I've decided I don't  want to get the right shoulder replaced just yet. It hurts, but I'm not limited by it (much) with normal activity. I think I can ride it at least another 10 years as long as I don't do anything stupid. The left has healed really well: my range of motion is better than it was (better than the right), I'm getting my strength back, and I'm only limited by an occasional twinge in the soft tissue or pain from the scar. Overall, I'm satisfied with it. Oh, and I'm once again medically qualified to fly. Back in the cockpit next month.
  Anyway, by the time I get to where I need a helper, I hope my daughter is old enough to help, otherwise help will be provided by the customer. If no help is provided, I will charge additional by-the-hour fees, on top of by the bdft. If I lose a customer because of that, so be it. Lost a customer, saved my back and shoulders.
  I will also heed the advice of those who have more experience than me by using hydraulics, roller tables, etc. and "take steps to save steps" (C) Yellowhammer.

Thanks for all the comments. Have a good holiday weekend.

some companies will hold  a sale price with a deposit of say 3,000 bucks.  i put that down on a TK at 27k, it was up to 30 when I paid in full and took possession.  

Doc,
Not sure how long the sale is going on for, but I would not think they would hold the price for 9 or 10 months, although that would be nice. Looks like the sale may be ending on Sep. 3rd, so maybe the stars are not yet aligned for me and WM...might be a bit early to commit to a purchase anyway.

Edit- I Was able to speak to a salesperson at the WM location in Oregon (NC was closed hours ago). They said the sale on the LT 50 was on until the end of October, in case anyone was wondering.

It is better to have a waste/by product management strategy ahead of time.  I almost got bound in by slabs at one point.  I now have an arrangement with a local guy that runs a commercial chipping operation.  He schedules the crew to come to my yard as needed between jobs or when it's too wet.

@YellowHammer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) 's post got me to thinking.  Here's my real world example of the amount of weight handled for the month of August.  I'm a one man operation with part time helpers when at my yard and I rely on customer helpers on portable jobs.

YellowHammer's 8,000 pounds of logs per 1000 board feet is more or less industry standard.  Given that standard, I generated 42,000 pounds plus (25%) of waste/by-products this month. That's a 1/2 tractor trailer load of slabs, log trimmings, bark and sawdust per month.  Of that, 21,000 pounds, is in my sawmill yard.  So every 4 months I have more or less a tractor trailer load of waste/by products in my yard.

It took 168,000 pounds of logs to make 21,000 board feet of lumber.  Logs are usually loaded on to the sawmill loader arms by equipment.  Seventy-five percent was useable lumber - 126,000 pounds. About half that was cut in my yard - over 60,000 pounds of boards stacked and stickered or loaded on customer trucks/trailers.  That's handled at least twice - over 120,000 pounds handled off bearing and stacking/loading. Plus handling waste slabs of 21,000 pounds - we handle them by hand once.

SawyerTed, 
That's exactly what I'm talking about and great example.  It's so easy to include a routine step because its routine.  Saw a board, pick it up, take a few steps, put it on a pile.  Then pick it up again and load on a trailer.  Double the weight.  However, what if you only had to pick up one end of the board? Or not pick it up at all, but slide it onto a pallet?  

If you or I were to go to the gym and tell the trainer that you wanted a special workout, I.e. do 126,000 lbs of "lift and walk" repetition exercises, over uneven ground, with 30 to 40 lb weights, for 8 hours a day, all day, for several months, then years, the trainer would say you were crazy.  Exercises like that don't strengthen the body, they break it down.  

But....that's what sawmilling is...so for every single step you can save or eliminate from the process, it can pay off over time, in literally hundreds of tons of weight not carried.  

I'm as guilty as anyone, I was the get it done, hurry up, pick it up, put it down, I'm Superman.  Then the revalation didn't hit me full force until I was in the hospital at 51 years old with an "obliterated hip".  I'd played college sports, I was in shape, but the repetitive tonnage of sawmilling, day after day, year after year, put me in the hospital, and now I have a titanium hip.  So..I made a change.  Take Steps to Save Steps also translates into Don't lift a board when you can slide it, don't slide a board when you can drop it, and don't do anything to a board if you can get the machine to do it.  

For example, when I do custom sawing at my place, with customer logs, before I begin, I will go to my scrap pile, and build a two bit forklift skid or open bottom pallet, 8 feet long. A few nails, a few waste slabs, a few minutes, done.  Then every board that comes off the dragback slides off the roller table onto the pallet, no lifting, plop. When the pallet is full, typically a thousand bdft feet or so, I band it all up and carry it off with the forklift.  When the customer shows up with a trailer, I pick up the skid with the forks and put the whole load on their trailer.  Quick loading and zero lifting. Saves time and steps.  Zero effort. The customer shows up expecting a workout, I tell them to stand back, I turn on the radio and air conditioner in the cab and load them.  Done.

I'm always trying to re evaluate my work flow.  I enjoy sawmilling and want to keep doing it for a long time.        

@jeepcj779 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=46423)   they held it for over a year, that was the deal!  Matt called me just before a price increase so I could get the lower price, and if I changed my mind, I could get my deposit back.  not sure they still do it but it sounded standard for them.

The price for the laser as supplied by Woodmizer is a bit on the pricey side for the value of a red laser IMHO I will admit, BUT I have a systems engineer Son so the only thing "Woodmizer" about my laser is the mounting hardware.

The rest was sourced by my son and I have a green High power laser with an adjustable shutoff relay switched by a momentary button that eliminates any possibility of leaving it turned on. Currently set at 4 seconds on, which is lots.

The laser module is either a 60MW or 90 MW for power so it is up there. Those specs will be in the laser mod I did on my mill in the useful saw mill mods thread. 

Parts probably about 300 ish? Labour between my son any I probably $3000 ish if we actually calculated our time for it. If I did it again it would likely be about the $300 ish for labour cause we know exactly what we need for parts and how to do it and that might even be rich. Had to replace one laser module last spring after a few years use and it took all of 30 minutes.

At 900 for the Wood mizer version I'd value mine at about $1500 IF I was to do for someone else. That sort reflects my "desire" to actually do it. Advice on how to do it free and is on this site.

Personally I wouldn't do the Woodmizer laser UNLESS it was part of a sale package deal and then it would get upgraded to my auto shutoff push button start system with a green high power module before it ever saw a log. The red laser is a waste of money IMHO.

Calibration after install pics. This pic is with 12 x 3000 lumen LED shop light on.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_0453.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1359678622)




(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_0461.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1359681337)
  

Agree on the laser.  I have a factory one on my 70 and have never even bothered to align it, just not worth it.  I figure one day I will pick up a green one and replace the unit then put it into service.  

Some more things too consider on your sawmill search. Things that can be added to your operation at a later date will help you get more bang for your $
Bed extensions are something you could get later. Being a mobile Sawyer and setting up extensions can have hidden occurred costs.
Mostly extra travel and time setting it up. Having larger equipment too handle log loading and handling.

You may be better off learning too saw without a laser first. Then add one if you feel it will speed your operation up. A laser is best suited for a stationary mill that's under a cover where excessive sunlight won't interfere.
If your mill has drag back capabilities hopefully the controls will run on there own and you can go handle the board while blade is making next cut.
As far as roller tables you can get by with saw horses with a slick surface top too slide stuff around until you know what you really need for drag back. Plus you can break down and set up easily on portable jobs.

A 20-21' log length mill is far more practical for mobile milling than a 24-25' mill especially in rough terrain and narrow roads. 

search out owners of the mill your interested in, it helps alot too understand why they bought it and what they know and do with it.

On the roller tables;

Look for retail box stores closing out. I got 24 feet of roller table for $40 bucks with roller every 2 inches. The legs cost me $20 in steel from a local fab shop scrap pile plust the original legs off the mill that I had left from swapping to FAO jacks and $120 for the 4 aluminum plates between the rollers. Rollers are 24" centers. Took probably a half a day to assemble I'd say.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_2231.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1553130049)
  

This table started life with me on saw horses or big blocks cut at site and 1/2" plywood scrap between rollers. Added the legs and the aluminum when jobs provided the cash to do the upgrades.

SawyerTed,
I'll be sure to consider what to do with the waste before I create it. I have about 20,000 bdft of pine and white oak to take down when I get home, as well as a few red oaks and sweet gum. I'll chip the pine slabs and trimmings and use the oak and gum cut to length for firewood. I'll compost the sawdust or give it back to the woods. I can manage 40,000 lbs using the tractor FEL bucket and forks. After that, I'll try to keep the waste with the customer until I decide to expand my operation. I will expand only if the work I am doing will pay for the additional equipment. I don't want to go into any debt to make those purchases, so it will take some time.

Yellowhammer,
 I plan to slide, roll, and drop where and when able, using machines when I can. I am sure with a quick search I can find some pictures of those pallets you were talking about so I can use those too.

Doc,
I'll find out when I go on leave in October how long they will hold the mill for. All the mills I am interested in seem to be on sale right now.

Bandmill Bandit,
 I'll probably look into the laser at a later date. I don't think it is "necessary" (thanks #Southside), just nice to have. Time will tell, and I can wait. If I do get one, it will be green.
 I was poking around on craigslist a couple of weeks ago, and saw a couple dozen 10ft roller tables for $300. I don't know how often they come around, but I will pick some up when I find them and do something similar to what you have done. Roller tables will be a requirement.

redbeard,
 I was looking into a 24ft extension, I just don't know how often I would use it. I don't know for sure, but I would think that is something that would be a little more sensitive to being level over the 45ft length to cut straight. That is something I can get later unless they plan to give a significant discount at the time of purchase.
 The length of the mill is something I am looking at. Some of the long mills have the axles all the way at the back. I think I would feel like I was driving around a tractor trailer. Maneuverability is definitely something I am thinking about.

Thanks for the comments and I hope everyone is enjoying their weekend.

JeepCJ
Since I bought my mill in 2007 I have cut 8 over length beams.
2 of 32' 8"X 16" and 6 of 24' 6" X 12". Fiddly and time consuming but worth the time it takes to do them.

Hard to justify an extension with that over length number.

An extension would be nice but then transportability becomes an issue as well.  

I guess I will wait to see what the market demand is for stuff like that. If there is no demand, I won't have to spend the extra money.

The biggest benefit I could see for my operation with a longer bed is being able to load 2 logs at a time then cut one, then move to cut the other one. If you have help someone else could be removing and loading a log while you are cutting the other one.

Definitely be a huge time saver. Biggest issue would be one bed may end up being manual and the other hydraulic. At least until you invested a good deal of money to make 2 standalone decks. with 1 bandsaw.

Quote from: Southside on August 30, 2019, 09:38:42 PM
Agree on the laser.  I have a factory one on my 70 and have never even bothered to align it, just not worth it.  I figure one day I will pick up a green one and replace the unit then put it into service.  

South side it is not hard to swap the red module out for a green one And it is not real costly either.

Its been a while since I posted on this thread, but I thought I would let those who have given advice know that when I went home on leave last week, I went to the Woodmizer Carolina open house and I put a deposit on a LT50. Right now I have it quoted with the command console, but I am still undecided  if I should get that or if the walk along would be better. I can see advantages to both, but I don't know which advantages are most useful to a majority solo operator. I still have time to think about it, so any comments are welcome. 

   My model has the walk beside but I figure I needed the exercise and besides that puts me there to off load the slabs which I throw over the sawdust pile, toss the flitches on the loader arms or to unload the finished boards. I guess if I had the dragback I might change the way I operate and sequence of events. I know you will enjoy the new mill. Congratulations.

jeepcj..... congrats on the 50.

either way, command console or doing the WM walk, you'll have a great machine and can make a ton of lumber.

great choice!

Congrats on the purchase deposit.

As you know my mill is walk along but having run a mill with command control AND a wireless remote I would rank them as follows.

1) Wireless remote; allows for the walk along and a seat option without modification. Best of all worlds!

2) Walk along; allows for a seat option. 

3) Command control; no other options. Personal experience of using one for a few hours it would be a PITA for me as a mostly mobile operation.  
 

I am considering going with the walk-along with a wireless remote instead of the command console, as recommended by BB. Anyone else have any input as to which setup they think is better and why?

Since you asked, my Super 70 has the wired remote station, so it's like a command control in that everything is at your fingertips, but with this style there is a 20' cord so you can move the unit from one end of the mill to the other, which does create options. 

I would not go back to a walk along as having the ability to do a second function while the head is making a cut is amazingly effective when working alone or with another trailer / edger man. 

The first part about the wireless I don't care for is the lack of hydraulic capacity, so at the end of the day you are still bending over at the head of the mill and moving joysticks.  Which in my mind creates a bottleneck if you are trying to use a roller or conveyor for removing material off the mill. Now if the remote had hydraulic control then I would be all over it. 

The second limitation I see with the remote is that you still need to be within sight distance of your height indicator to know where you are in a cant / log so you will be walking back to the head for that. Add in stress movement of cants and again you want eyes on the mill if you are making lumber. 

I can see where the remote has it's plusses, but personally I think you get more bang for your buck with a command control set up. 

 Anyone actually have a LT40/50 with wireless? Command control? I see what BB is saying with wireless being the best of both worlds, but as I was reading through the manuals for the CC and wireless models, I was unable to determine if the accuset 2 works with the wireless or not. I know you cannot adjust the accuset system through the wireless transmitter, but I could not tell if accuset works at all using wireless, as in can I bump the wireless remote head down switch when in pattern or auto mode to go to my next cut, or do I have to bump down from the saw-mounted control console? The accuset manual I have is for 97+ Non-remote models (which I assume is the walk-along model), and I did not see one for wireless, nor did I see operational references to wireless in the accuset manual (only in 2 wiring diagrams). My assumption is that a "bump" on the wireless controller has no accuset functionality.
 That said, even if the wireless does not have any accuset functionality whatsoever (seems like that could be fixed pretty easily with new programming), I can still see the usefulness of being able to control the saw head during and after the cut without having to walk along with it or remain at the command console. If I want to walk along with the sawhead to check for upcoming knots (possible cut speed adjustment) or looking out for faults when grade sawing, I can. I can also position myself upwind of the sawdust, stand where I need to for off bearing, or put myself in a good position to guide the board when dragging back. I also will have to ability to stop the carriage, even if I am nowhere near the console. At worst, I will have all the functionality of the walk-along model, but with the freedom to move around as I am sawing. The only negative to me is the low position of the hydraulic controls at the head of the mill and having to bend over to manipulate logs. Having to lean down occasionally is not the end of the world, however, and can be mitigated with mill positioning.
 Please feel free to point out any flaws or inaccuracies in my logic. I am sure there are some. While have logged many hours on youtube and some manual reading, my conclusions are based on zero actual sawing experience.

I agree totally with @Southside (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297)
I went from a CC LT-40 to a DCS LT-70

The CC, as well as the DCS puts all the functions of the mill at your fingertips with no walking and no bending.  Its fast and efficient.  

I looked online at the wireless remote, but it doesn't have a display screen?  It can't quickly function Accuset 2?  It doesn't function hydraulics?  If true, I wouldn't buy it.  

OK so I am old and set in my ways and also there are times when windblown sawdust causes me misery, but if I was buying new today, I would be hard pressed to abandon my ride-along seat.  I am always close to the action and have a constant visual of all/most of the sawing functions.  With huge logs, I often sit on the seat top for a better view.  The seat is easily unlatched or even removed if it is not wanted/needed.  It must be removed when sawing logs over 18' long.

MM,
 That is one of the items in the "pro" column for the walk-along/remote combo. I can add a seat in the future if I want/need to. If I get command console, I have no seat option.

SS, YH,
 I agree with SS as well - The main shortcomings of the wireless are the lack hydraulic control functions and lack of accuset control functions (I still need to find out if the accuset still works while using the remote). I guess that shoving all that functionality into a hand-held remote is difficult or expensive, or both. The DCS is a wired station, and quite a bit larger than the hand-held remote. I think Cooks has a smaller wired remote for their mill, but I don't think it has any setworks capability either.
 I can see how in YH's operation, the CC or DCS are ideal because he is stationary and drags back onto a roller table or conveyor. I will be mobile most of the time (that is the plan anyway), and a CC may limit my site set-up options, and will force me to remain at or near the CC. It may also limit my off-bearing options, because as Bandmill Bandit says, the CC gets in the way sometimes. If I did get the walk-along with wireless, I think I will diminish my ability to drag-back onto a roller table because the table would cover the hydraulic controls, like SS said. This is a major drawback of not having the CC
 
 Even with the wireless remote's shortcomings, it still provides additional capabilities I can't get with the walk-along or CC models, key among those is being able to stop the head no matter where I am around the mill.  It also allows for the "second function" ability SS mentioned - being able do something away from the head as the saw is cutting (and not having to worry about getting back). I searched for wireless on the forum, and I was unable to find anyone who has the wireless who does not like it. I would still like to hear from anyone who owns a mill with wireless. Thanks for the replies.

Quote from: jeepcj779 on October 28, 2019, 02:11:40 AM
........... as in can I bump the wireless remote head down switch when in pattern or auto mode to go to my next cut, or do I have to bump down from the saw-mounted control console?  My assumption is that a "bump" on the wireless controller has no accuset functionality.
 I can also position myself upwind of the sawdust, stand where I need to for off bearing, or put myself in a good position to guide the board when dragging back. I also will have to ability to stop the carriage, even if I am nowhere near the console. At worst, I will have all the functionality of the walk-along model, but with the freedom to move around as I am sawing. 

YES, the "bump" feature works on the wireless remote.
YES, getting out of the way of "windblown" sawdust is a benefit.
YES, works great with the drag-back.


I bought my 50 with wireless but have just now started to use it.  I wanted to learn will walking along first.  I bought the wireless based on recommendations from others that said they would hate to operate their mill without their wireless remote.


Walk-along, ride-along, command-console, or wireless all have their + & - .  
I am getting use to my wireless but am glad that I bought it.

Also, if you go walk-along or wireless remote, you can get the longer extensions if needed (12ft and 24ft).  I think you're limited to just the 6ft model if you go with CC.......  ?????

Quote from: E-Tex on October 28, 2019, 03:50:40 PM

Quote from: jeepcj779 on October 28, 2019, 02:11:40 AM
........... as in can I bump the wireless remote head down switch when in pattern or auto mode to go to my next cut, or do I have to bump down from the saw-mounted control console?  My assumption is that a "bump" on the wireless controller has no accuset functionality.
I can also position myself upwind of the sawdust, stand where I need to for off bearing, or put myself in a good position to guide the board when dragging back. I also will have to ability to stop the carriage, even if I am nowhere near the console. At worst, I will have all the functionality of the walk-along model, but with the freedom to move around as I am sawing.

YES, the "bump" feature works on the wireless remote.
YES, getting out of the way of "windblown" sawdust is a benefit.
YES, works great with the drag-back.


I bought my 50 with wireless but have just now started to use it.  I wanted to learn will walking along first.  I bought the wireless based on recommendations from others that said they would hate to operate their mill without their wireless remote.


Walk-along, ride-along, command-console, or wireless all have their + & - .  
I am getting use to my wireless but am glad that I bought it.

Also, if you go walk-along or wireless remote, you can get the longer extensions if needed (12ft and 24ft).  I think you're limited to just the 6ft model if you go with CC.......  ?????

E-Tex
You beat me to it and yours is based on user experience.

I just talked Woodmizer Tech.

Accuset or simple set Operation of the mill with a wireless remote is the same as operating at the console be it walk along or CC ONCE the electronics are set. The "set it and forget it" concept applies just the same. So yes you have to be at the console to start the log to get the computer set to the operation mode you want. Then you carry on with cutting same as if you were standing at or walking with the console.

If you really wana get fancy you can order a wireless remote valve block from Bucher direct. It is just under 5K Euro.

Jeepcj

Take a look at the pic to see how I set up with my out feed table.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_2519.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1567689211)

The space between the mill and the table is just enough to walk through and ONLY the operator is allowed to walk through there during operation. Does not negatively affect access to the handles.

In FACT it helps as I just realize that sit on the sloped end of the table to operate the handles most of the time. I didn't even realize I was doing it till I thought about it just now. I'll get a picture for you. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_2656.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1572302652)
 
       

I've used an LT40 Super with front remote station for 18+ years, 100% mobile.  For the most part customers handle all the lumber. 

Like MM I did not use dragback at all, in fact took it off, because I liked the extra throat depth and the dragging back of a board with that mill I felt was dangerous, the board direction depended on the squareness at the back end of the log. Not like the higher end improved dragbacks that steer the board. 

Never felt there was a disadvantage about lumber handling. 
Never wished I was walking along next to the engine noise and dust.  
Did sometimes bring a stool or sit on the tailgate of my truck. 
Never wished I was bending over to use the hydraulics, or climbing in and out of a chair. 
Didnt wish I had to stop sawing to tend to something on the loader side. 

I see the walk along as an option to get exercise during a sawing day.  You can do the math,  2000-3000 bf of lumber lets say 10' logs, 3-4 paces or avg 10' walking each way, maybe 250-400 round trips at 20' walking each, 1-2 miles walking to cut the boards plus whatever else I need to walk around for, maybe that is good exercise, but there are other options to exercise. 

The newer 40's and 50's with diesel and turbos or 747 will saw fast and running along with the head and hoping I don't get run over or trip on the return, no thanks.

Sawing home or leisurely things would be different. 

Nice to be able to watch the head go down and do something else quickly while it does. 

With command control some of the setups leave the controls higher or lower because of the slope.  This can be a bit of a distraction 

Ran a walk along only once for 3 cuts, I was sawing in Africa and that's the mill they had.  Can't say I have any learnings about the walk along from that except it was a special experience. 

My summary would be that I dont want to be next to dust and noise, and my makeup is for an orderly precise situation which goes along with the command control.  Also as I get older I get more tired and I'd rather take walks at home with my wife. 

I know nothing else but the command control.
Not being able to walk well it was a no brainer for me.
But using it , I don't think I would want anything different.
It's all right at my finger tips.

Thanks everyone for the replies. What I have been able to determine so far is that those with command control mills like them, those with walk-alongs/seats like them best, and folks with wireless would not want to be without it. I have some heavy-duty thinking to do because I have to change my order by tomorrow if I am going to. Thanks again.

you'll fall into one of those categories too.  good luck with the decision.

go Stros!!!! 

Joe and folks at WM Carolinas are great!  Congratulations on your new tool.

Quote from: jeepcj779 on October 30, 2019, 07:50:50 PM
Thanks everyone for the replies. What I have been able to determine so far is that those with command control mills like them, those with walk-alongs/seats like them best, and folks with wireless would not want to be without it. I have some heavy-duty thinking to do because I have to change my order by tomorrow if I am going to. Thanks again.

Not that everyone can't be right for themselves buy I'd put more weight towards the opinions of people who have used more than one system extensively. "This is all I've ever used but think it's just fine", to me, isn't as valuable as, "I used to do it that way but now I do it this way and it's so much better", or, conversely, "I wish I never would have changed."

All my controls are at the rear of my old Timberking. It's nice being able to stand there while it saws but with no drag back and no power head up/down I still find myself walking to the end of the mill after every cut to raise the head and pull the board off. Sometimes I think I could just as well be walking with the mill. Not being next to the blade also makes it harder to hear how the engine is performing and I generally can't tell if I'm getting wavy cuts until I pull the board. It might be nice having a closer look at the cut in progress at times.

But then a blade breaks and knocks a guard off and I think maybe being 10' behind the head isn't so bad. Or when I see the wind whipping sawdust all around the head while I'm breathing clean air at the controls. And the farther the head gets down the track the quieter it gets. Nice to not having it screaming in your ear the entire cut.

Starting from scratch is always hard. So much easier when you don't get a choice and just have to make do with whatever you have.

Alan

As you all know my mill is walk along and I have the seat as well.
I am passively considering an upgrade and will go to LT50 when I do and it will have the Wireless Remote system. It is also likely to get a Wireless remote valve block installed by me BEFORE it ever saws a log for me.

My reason for leaning very heavily in that direction is that I have spent about 4 to 6 hours running a wireless remote mill and about 2 hours on a CC mill.

The Wireless is more comfortable for me for the following reason and is why I
personally don't like the CC mill configuration, The height of the hydraulic handles causes me significant pain every time I use them resulting from an aging hockey injury to my right elbow so CC is out for me on that count.

When working alone the Wireless remote just makes more sense for me based on a bit over a  half a day of production sawing. I worked alone for about 2 of the 4+ hours. I loved it! 

THese are the reasons for MY preference of the wireless system.        

  Once again I would like to thank everyone for their input, from when I knew nothing about being a sawyer and asked for advice on layout, equipment, which mill was best, etc., to now when I know almost nothing about being a sawyer. I have taken the advice given and made what I think is the best choice for me on which mill to buy. I will be getting the WM LT-50D Wireless. There are many reasons why, and I will outline a few here.

1. At worst, the wireless model is a walk-along when the wireless is not used. While some are of the opinion walking next to the action, noise, and sawdust is a pain, I think that is where I need to be a a zero-experience sawyer. I think I need to be where I can see, hear, and feel what is going on at the business end of the saw until I gain some experience. Once I have that experience, I may want to upgrade to a CC or even LT-70 if my situation dictates.
2.  A CC model might be better suited for those who use the drag back and edger a majority of the time. Also, WM does not recommend using the drag back solo, but I think it might be easier to manage if I am able to guide the board if using the drag back. I have seen setups where the brag back is used with a guide-finger modification, but those appeared to be stationary ops. Since I plan to be mobile a majority of the time, I don't think I will bring the extra equipment necessary to make the drag-back worthwhile. I know there are members who have CC and are mobile, but I just don't think it would work for me with my lack of experience.
3.  With the wireless, I will have the option to be anywhere around the mill I feel like I need to be, and I will also have the option not to walk through sawdust on the ground or in the air if I don't want to. I can stand still/sit in a chair at the hydraulic controls if that keeps me out of the dust and I don't want to be close to the action.
4.  I can put a seat and umbrella on the mill and maybe be like Magicman when I grow up.
5.  I have the option to put extensions on (greater than 6ft) if I want to.
6.  Some folks said they don't like that there are no hydraulic functions with the wireless remote so they wouldn't want it. I would prefer to have wireless hydraulic functions also, but if I didn't get the wireless at all, I still would not have wireless hydraulic functions. The way I see it, the wireless only gives me additional capabilities I would not otherwise have. If I have to return to the front of the mill to work the hydraulics, then it will not be much different than if I had a CC, except I might have to bend over a bit. Same applies to manipulating the accuset.
7.  I guess I have the potential of getting some extra steps if walking-along. This can be good or bad depending on your perspective, but if I am solo, I might get just as many steps with the CC, so from the steps angle, it may be a wash. For now, I don't mind walking. If I have issues in the future, I can always get a seat or upgrade to a different mill. Or I can get a chair and set it up by the hydraulic controls and use the wireless.

  I am sure I can come up with a few more reasons, but that is what I have for now.

Quote from: jeepcj779 on October 31, 2019, 07:17:50 PM4. I can put a seat and umbrella on the mill and maybe be like Magicman when I grow up.

I still don't know what I am gonna be when I grow up.   smiley_dizzy

Whatever you get, you will like it.  Congrats on the new mill.  

Quote from: Magicman on October 31, 2019, 07:28:39 PM

Quote from: jeepcj779 on October 31, 2019, 07:17:50 PM4. I can put a seat and umbrella on the mill and maybe be like Magicman when I grow up.

I still don't know what I am gonna be when I grow up.   smiley_dizzy

What does it mean "grow up"? Do I really have to do that?

I'll let you know if I ever grow up.

QuoteI still don't know what I am gonna be when I grow up.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood. (Old saying.) ;D

I like that @Resonator (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37685)   nice to know for those of us that started working man jobs at age 13.  @jeepcj779 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=46423)  I agree anything is better than nothing to start, and like cars and all other things equipment, you make your best choice for the money.  more bells and whistles cost more Benjamins!

I had a happy childhood. Ended at age 13 when I started priming tobacco. Now I'm trying to be a happy adult by doing something I want to do instead of something I have to do.

Congrats on the purchase decision. I have owned and operated LT70DCS(wired remote) and LT35HD(walk with) mills with and without support equipment. I never seriously considered the wireless version because it didn't control all functions. I agree with your logic that if you are standing at the end of the mill it with a console the wireless offers options a fixed control station does not. Sawing by yourself without the benefit of rollers and decks you are going to be walking anyway.

Thanks. I feel like this is the right option for me. At a minimum, I have a walk-along mill on which I can gain experience. The wireless is just $2200 gravy.

   Since I mostly work alone and have to walk along side the log/cant anyway to move the slab/flitch/board anyway I never even considered a remote function. It might be an advantage if you had a helper off-bearing all the time or if you had and used a dragback and off loaded off the front of the mill. I nearly always off-load off the front.

Lots of ways to do things, and everybody has their favorite way.

For me, the addition of one wooden top or roll outfeed table about 6 feet long (the 70 comes with one, so it all packs and goes with the mill on portable jobs, if I did them) and the dragback fingers means can I cut a board, the machine drags it back to the table, sometimes all the way to pallet, I can inspect it as it goes by me, I put the machine in autofeed, start making the the next cut, reach for the board and slide it off the table onto the waiting pallet.  No walking steps, maybe one or two at most per board. Very minimal touching of the board, basically a slide and drop onto the pallet.  Once the board is on the pallet, the currect saw cut is done, and I drag that board back, and continue the process.  The dragback also pulls back the bark slabs, flitches, whatever I cut, and whatever boards need edging.  I mill 95% of the time alone, and pretty much every day (got to get my quota done), and my old LT40 was setup the way the new LT70 came. If I'm going to edge on the mill, I'll use the two plane to flip the flitches off the cant to the loader arms, as opposed to doing it by hand so I don't have to leave the control station and hand flip them.  

Yellowhammer you indicate the WM out feed table is 6 feet long. I thought they were 8'. Hmm! Maybe I could shorten mine two feet to make it easier to handle. 

My LT70 removable outfeed table is just under 6 feet long. It's the one that comes with the mill.  The one I used on my LT40 was about 5 feet long.  Both have a small lead in or ramp table to make sure the leading edge of the board doesn't dive under the table.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/93D98DFE-CE83-4C2F-8401-674D5D0F3B80.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1572663305)
 

Here's the view I have when I'm sawing.  After making the cut, I drag the board back as far as it will go, at least as far back as the end of the table, most times as far back as the head carriage return.  So the front edge and most of the board goes scooting on by me, and the very last few feet plops onto the table but most lands on the pallet. So I get a close look at every board as it goes in by.  If it's a 12 foot or longer board, the momentum keeps it going backward, and it will continue to slide all the way off the table and onto the waiting pallet.  You can see a roller I welded to the table to help keep the board rolling right off the end of the table and onto the pallet.  An eight foot board won't back feed all the way off the table, so I'll just reach down, while the mill sawing in autofeed forward, and grab the board and with one hand and push it onto the pallet. The board just has to get about 18 inches off the roller table, and it's on the stack and done.  That's pretty much all the movements I have to do to saw the cant up.  I adjust the mill forward cut speed so that as soon as I've got the board on the pallet situated, the next board has been cut and I reach back for the joystick and drag it back. Once the stack of wood has reached the height of the roller table, it's about 800 bdft, I'll shut things down, pull out the wholestack with the forklift and reload with a new, empty pallet.  

You can see my footprints in the sawdust, as well as the rubber mat, that most of my foot movement is in that little 3 foot area.  Basically, if I have to leave that area, something has gone wrong, or I need to load another log, or something.  

You can also see a rusty gravity roller table on the side of the dragback table.  That is there so when I drag a slab back to the table, I can push down on the end hanging off the table, rotate and lever it onto the gravity roller table, and give it a little shove, and gravity carries it off downhill.  The gravity roller is set to have a decent downhill angle so whatever is on it will keep rolling until it falls off the far end, where it flops onto the forks of my forklift. When I've sawn up a pack of lumber, I also dump what's on the forks.  

Here's another photo from the side, with a half stack of 8 and 12 foot, end of run 4/4 hickory I milled up yesterday, on a pallet, ready to forklift out.  You can see how far the dragback fingers extend, almost to the end of the outfeed, and well far enough to get the board moving off the table onto the awaiting deadstack.  I put some junk wood on the gravity roller table to show how the bark slabs roll down and onto the forks.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/ED978EA0-9065-4918-AA49-41ED40AED732.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1572661452)
 
The cool thing about the LT70 is the dragback table and is integrated into the whole package, and  WM designed it so it slides forward clips onto the mill bed for transport to portable jobs.  My LT40 had the table, but it would have had to be thrown in the back of a truck for portable jobs.

On the few times I have help I'm milling, their job is to stay away from the mill, and stand by the outfeed table and pallet of wood, and neaten up the stack when the next board plops on it.

Woodmizer just put the LT70 on sale for $5000 off. Not that I will be changing my order (it is still about $15,000 more than the LT50 I ordered), but I would have the gotten the command control instead of the wireless if the LT50 came with an integrated/packable outfeed table similar to the one on the LT70. I think for the price of the CC option on the LT50, it should come with a table and guide fingers similar to the LT70. If it comes down to it and I need to run a stationary setup with drag back for a while, I will make a setup similar to Bandmill Bandit's modified outfeed ramp and table. We'll see, once I figure learn some milling basics.

I think learning to saw on a 70 by oneself would be like learning to fly in a F-35 - without the benefit of a simulator, lessons, instructors, etc.  Lot of things happening at the same time and quite a few expensive parts to break really easily.  

You will have a very nice saw there, the chain turner will be a big speed boost for you.  The actual band in the wood part is not really where one can make up significant time, it's all the other handling, band out of the wood time, that makes or breaks your production. 

The travel table really is not complicated at all and one could be fabbed up for your mill rather easily.  There are a couple of things I would actually improve upon it were I to build one and a few guys have built drag back fingers, so there is no reason you could not add those on as well.    

Its a good thing for those pilots a computer flies the F35! Kidding (sort of). I completely understand your point. To be honest, I looked at the controls for the LT70 and dismissed any notion of getting one of those (not to mention it was 70K). Too complicated at this point in my career as a sawyer.

Thanks for the info Yellowhammer. I may have to do some tweaking now.

Heres a picture of my table loaded for transport. It fits but you gota hold your tongue just right to get there.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_1914_28129.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1525269997)
 

2 feet shorter would make a lot of things a lot easier with my table.

I appreciate the continued advice and knowledge, but I have a question I don't think has been specifically addressed:  For you seasoned sawyers, both pro and hobbyist, what did you start out doing, or how did you start out as a sawyer? Did you start out sawing just for yourself, or were you employed sawing for someone else? What kind of work did you do? Other than doing it, and reading on the forum, what are the best things to do/study to make the learning process go faster/better? Now that I decided on equipment, I need to try and bone up on my skills and education to the extent that I can during the several months I have remaining before I get home and pick up my mill.

The learning really starts when you start sawing. Reading up is good, but doing it is when it starts to mean something. It's a good journey.

It helps to saw for a purpose or a project. Maybe a saw shed or something.

One thing to start thinking about is what happens before you get a log on the mill. Then what happens to the output. Slabs, lumber, sawdust. Sawing is the smallest part of running a sawmill.  And the fun part. 

I started volunteering for a couple of custom mill guys to get experience with the milling process in general and to see different mills operating.

During that process I met a gentleman that had spent much of his life from 12 years old as a part time sawyer on different mills including his grandpas Frick mill. He put himself through university as a part time sawyer to become a teacher. I worked with him with my mill for the first year and learned a lot of things that would have taken many years to learn on my own.

Best experience/teaching I got in the learning process.   

  

   In response to your question I graduated Auburn with a Wildlife Biology degree, immediately went into USMC where I became a Supply and Logistics officer. I left them and worked mostly overseas the next 20+ years as a Logisitician and camp manager in some real remote locations. I finished that and retired and due to excess time on my hands I followed up with WM on their bandmills and bought my LT35HDG25 and set up a mobile sawmill service sawing for customers in the southern WV and harvesting and sawing some of my excess poplar trees and salvaging others that die or fall. I sell a little lumber and make primitive benches as a sideline. 

   I don't make a lot of money in the process and most of what I do make is reinvested into the company. I call it my cost neutral hobby because it gets me out of the house and forces me to move around get some fresh air and exercise. While I don't make a lot at it, it does not cost me a lot and it keeps me busy and I meet people and make new friends in the process. I guess it helps replace the lost socialization that comes from retiring and leaving the work force. Good luck in your endeavors.

I bought mine (used) with the full intention of sawing logs from my property and selling lumber.  I was able to really get my feet wet, so to speak, sawing and screwing up my own logs/lumber.  I had never actually seen a sawmill in operation and had no idea what to do or how to get what I wanted from a log.  I didn't have a computer so the Forestry Forum was not available to me.  This business profile disappeared within the first year because I had no support equipment and no shed/storage area for lumber.  I was also quickly getting into the lumber inventory business instead of the sawing business.   :-X  The good part was that I paid for the sawmill that first year.

Anyway within the first year I knew that my "calling" would be a portable sawyer.  No support, no sheds, no slabs/sawdust disposal, no labor, and no worries.  I just saws um and leaves um and I am finishing my 17th year of sawing.  ;D

  I envision learning on my own logs before trying to maul someone else's. I figure I have about 20M bdft (thats 20,000 I think) mostly pine and white oak to practice on. I need to re-side a 30x100 ft barn with board and batten, so I guess I can start there. I also need to build a lean-to off the gable end of the barn to store the mill. The tractor will have to sleep outside or under an alternate shelter until I get it built because the mill will have priority accommodations in the big barn.
  I guess I should spend some time learning about the different species of wood in my area, how they are used, and how to mill them for those uses. Thanks all for the input.

Bandmill, 
Glad to help.

We have around 300 acres of property in the Northwest Piedmont of NC.  Much of it has mature hardwood and pine forests.  We spent 28 years cutting saw logs into firewood.  For 28 years I kept saying "we need a sawmill".

I finally got serious about it a couple years after I retired.  I went from thinking a manual mill would do to realizing a hydraulic mill was necessary to do what I needed.

Once I got the mill I spent several weeks sawing junk logs into lumber.  Most of that lumber warped, crooked, bowed and or split. I'm still burning some of that lumber - it became what forum members call designer firewood.  

After those first few weeks of sawing whatever I had on hand for learning, I started trying to fill a cut list of lumber I wanted for projects.  That's when word started getting out that I had a sawmill.   It was then I realized I needed to be serious about the business side of things too.

So like others I'm self taught with lots of help from this forum and I learn something new nearly everyday.

Similar story.  Bought my 35 to "save some money" on a number of farm and house related projects that had to be done.  I had a Sgt in the 90's who had a WM and I had done a little off bearing for him now and then, but aside from that knew nothing about sawmills.  Chewed through some low grade stuff from my own wood lot and some a local tree service was happy to have a dumping ground for and one day someone stopped in and asked if I could cut some lumber for them, then another called and asked me to bring the mill to them to saw up some logs.  The learning curve grew with each log and reading on here, talking with the guys, etc.  

Now the 35 lives as a re-saw and the lumber operation has become a full time job - sad thing is some of those projects are still waiting to be completed.  The saving grace is I told my wife they would be done by August - I just never specified which year. Be careful as you venture down this journey, the sound of a band in the wood is a Siren Song.   

I know you bought your mill with the intent to custom saw. Before wearing my own hat; I bought standing timber and logs for some of the major players in the hardwood market. Per unit production costs for the "big bands" gets pretty low and the sales opportunity to offer trailer load lots sorted to the nth degree(like say light pink colored black oak, no mineral, 5/4, 10" & wider FAS/1F KD S2S).

A little guy can't compete. True, a little guy couldn't fill the above order. But the little band can fill the order for the buyer who only needs 500bf/ft of the same material and pays a premium because its now a retail qauntity. A thin kerf band has a very high per unit cost of operation but along with that comes the highest yield percentage. You get more out of the same log to sell. If its going to pay;
a.) saw the highest value log you can so the extra yield is worth a premium
b.) own log and the gain or charge as much for sawing as if you did

10% extra yield on $4.00 a  bd ft Walnut material is a lot more than 10% extra yield on $.40 a bd ft pallet cants. 

I did well sawing ties but I hand picked the logs that yielded a high percentage of upper grade side lumber which was more or less all overrun. At first glance I was buying tie logs at $.40 and selling sawn ties @ $.60 leaving a rather slim margin. In reality, I was sawing a 7x9 tie out of a 13" log(doyle scale=40 bd/ft) and generating 15 ft of grade side lumber that averaged 1C or better in grade at $750+mbf. So that's a tie 42'x.60=25.20 plus 15' 1C oak @ .$75 = 11.25 so sales total= 57ft sawn $36.45 less log cost of 40'x.40=$16.00 leaving a gross of $20.45 to saw 57'. My actual margin was $.358 per bd ft sawn. Not get rich quick but wholesale market paid weekly all I could saw. A viable business. If the same 13" log was sweet gum that the side lumber went for frame stock my lumber would have only been worth $3.75. Same amount of work but $7.50 less in my pocket. The sweet gum needed to go to a circle mill who would do very well with it because of lower production costs. Probably 4 heavy slabs and move on to the next one might maximize the profit in that scenario.

Today ties are $35 and Red Oak lumber is about worthless. Markets change daily but the principle remains the same. Your costs are high end; so your product needs to be premium. Premium does not always mean FAS walnut and white oak. It can also mean cutting a bench or table top from the stuff you salvaged from the cut off pile.

The trap to avoid is competing with the "guy down the road" who saws or sells for $.25 a foot. Let him and send all the tire kickers, cheap skates, and time wasters his way. 

As far as the actual cutting goes, listen! 
  Really , just listen to the sound of the band.
The sound it produces tells me right away if something is off or out of whack . But I only have a manual mill so I'm right there pushin'  watching and listening. Next biggest is how the blade enters and exits the cut for me along with how the board/cant acts while cutting. Bows up, down,  to the side ... thing to learn is junk in junk out bad logs usually make bad lumber . And it's hard to cut anything with a dull blade.
   Best of luck!

I graduated from East Carolina University with a degree in Industrial and Technical Education.  I taught electronics at ECU for a time before moving with my wife to her family farm and teaching high school Industral Arts/Technology Education for 5 years.  I spent about 23 years in administration of Vocational/Career and Technical Education at the local and state level.  During all that time I've been a part-time builder, woodworker and part-time farmer.  I retired and piddled around for two years with a couple of jobs, doing remodeling work and helping flip houses.  Sawmilling is another chapter in my life of "doing things".  I like the "hands on and mind on" activity of running the mill.  Like others have said the interactions with others during the day is as important as the business of being a sawyer.

When I started my business, my intentions were to just do portable sawing much like @Magicman (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10011).  As it has worked out, one third of my business is portable, one third is sales of 1x and 2x standard air dried rough cut lumber, and about one third custom cut lumber (both hardwoods and softwoods). I have sufficient requests for kiln dried material that warrants a kiln as my next step.  After the kiln will come planing services.  In my mind (versus written business plan) my plan has been to pay myself back for the mill and the new truck, then add the kiln, then add the planer/dust collection.  So far I'm on schedule in my mind.  Business plan-wise I'm About 18 months ahead of plan.

Quote from: SawyerTed on November 03, 2019, 10:10:58 AM
I have sufficient requests for kiln dried material that warrants a kiln as my next step.  

Are you leaning toward a particular type?

To Jeep and all the other Vets out there, thank you for your service!

I just wanted to say thanks Jeep for starting this thread and everyone that's contributed, it's been an awesome read and I look forward to seeing how it all unfolds!

Brandon 

Quote from: samandothers on November 03, 2019, 10:40:17 AM

Quote from: SawyerTed on November 03, 2019, 10:10:58 AM
I have sufficient requests for kiln dried material that warrants a kiln as my next step.  

Are you leaning toward a particular type?

The Nyle L200M is the way I'm leaning now.

The Nyle 200M is an excellent kiln.  I'm not aware of any better in that class.

Agreed - and the published capability is very conservative.  

For you seasoned sawyers, for someone running multiple small custom kiln loads (not production style), would you recommend having a couple Nyle L53 systems vs a single L200? My thinking is that might allow for more efficient drying of smaller loads, even though the 2000 has 3-4 times the capacity of the 53.

I have looked into what you are suggesting there, but to me the determining factor becomes capitol cost / BF of capacity. For me the cost of the kiln itself was just under half the completed project cost, and that was with me doing all the work and owning the heavy equipment needed to do ground prep, etc. If you have to rent / hire those costs that 1/3 to 1/4 capacity limit becomes quite expensive in the big picture.

Personally I feel it would be a better investment to build one or more solar kilns to have ahead of the 200. This way you can have multiple drying schedules that can be finished in the 200 at the same time taking advantage of it's larger capacity. 

I think you are correct. I think I mentioned it many posts ago: I will start with a couple solar kilns. If I need a powered kiln in the future, I can cross that bridge when I come to it.

I read and studied a lot before I got my first mill. All that paled in comparison to the education I got actually cutting logs. That doesn't mean it isn't time well spent. It's just that a lot of what you read won't sink in until you get some experience. Then things you struggled to understand in writing become apparent.

Work on getting all the "other stuff" ready while you're waiting for your mill. Make sure you have lots of flat storage space for air drying. Line up some low grade/undesirable logs to make stickers and lumber pallets. These are what you should saw first. It's not fun or sexy but if you saw the fun and sexy stuff first you'll suddenly find you don't have a way to stack and store it properly. You'll learn a lot sawing stickers and pallet stringers first. You'll see stress in the lumber as the boards are being sawn and how you can control it to bow or crook as well as learning all the controls and functions. When you think you've got enough stickers cut twice as many again.

I had quite a bit of time between acquiring my mill and getting it repaired and running. I did lots of reading. Had it all planned in my head. How I was going to use the whole log efficiently, throwing away nothing usable. How I'd set up roller tables to help me move the slabs, flitches, and lumber to the awaiting pallets. How everything would always be in tip top shape on the mill. How I'd keep sawdust under control.....

Most of that hasn't happened. The reality of how much time is required for milling set in once I started milling. If all you were doing was sawing it wouldn't be so bad. It's all the other stuff that takes away your time and diverts your attention. When I see members here with efficient operations it looks like it should be so easy. But it's not. It's not an easy thing to look at a huge pile of logs that you really want to saw and tell yourself that instead you're going to spend a week or more rearranging the sawmill setup, building pallets, cutting stickers, and doing all the other things that would make your life easier. Instead you tell yourself that you'll just cut up a few logs to get the lumber that you need right now for your project and you'll do all that other stuff just as soon as you have time. I'm still waiting until I have time.

Alan

Quote from: alan gage on November 04, 2019, 09:36:55 AM
I read and studied a lot before I got my first mill. All that paled in comparison to the education I got actually cutting logs. That doesn't mean it isn't time well spent. It's just that a lot of what you read won't sink in until you get some experience. Then things you struggled to understand in writing become apparent.

Work on getting all the "other stuff" ready while you're waiting for your mill. Make sure you have lots of flat storage space for air drying. Line up some low grade/undesirable logs to make stickers and lumber pallets. These are what you should saw first. It's not fun or sexy but if you saw the fun and sexy stuff first you'll suddenly find you don't have a way to stack and store it properly. You'll learn a lot sawing stickers and pallet stringers first. You'll see stress in the lumber as the boards are being sawn and how you can control it to bow or crook as well as learning all the controls and functions. When you think you've got enough stickers cut twice as many again.

I had quite a bit of time between acquiring my mill and getting it repaired and running. I did lots of reading. Had it all planned in my head. How I was going to use the whole log efficiently, throwing away nothing usable. How I'd set up roller tables to help me move the slabs, flitches, and lumber to the awaiting pallets. How everything would always be in tip top shape on the mill. How I'd keep sawdust under control.....

Most of that hasn't happened. The reality of how much time is required for milling set in once I started milling. If all you were doing was sawing it wouldn't be so bad. It's all the other stuff that takes away your time and diverts your attention. When I see members here with efficient operations it looks like it should be so easy. But it's not. It's not an easy thing to look at a huge pile of logs that you really want to saw and tell yourself that instead you're going to spend a week or more rearranging the sawmill setup, building pallets, cutting stickers, and doing all the other things that would make your life easier. Instead you tell yourself that you'll just cut up a few logs to get the lumber that you need right now for your project and you'll do all that other stuff just as soon as you have time. I'm still waiting until I have time.

Alan

Amen to that,  Alan is 100% spot on.

One of the biggest things that I can add is have a dedicated place to set the mill up permanently even if you plan to do portable sawing. I store my mill at my parents because they have a huge barn. This is great until I want to saw. They live 20 minutes away, a 1 hr round trip if I am picking the mill up and bringing it back to my place to saw. Then an hour and a half of lost time between set up, clean up, and tear down of the mill. Now all of the sudden you wasted 2.5 hours of the 10 hours of usable time and you are left with a pile of sawdust, a pile of edgings and slabs,and a pile of lumber and you spent a quarter of your time that day doing things that yielded nothing. For me right now it basically means that I cannot mill during the week with the day job being super busy and everything gets packed into the weekends. It is a terribly inefficient system until I get a roof big enough to store the mill at my house.

The first thing I will be milling is stickers (I forget who said to do that). I read that is a good way to get used to the controls and learn something about how the wood moves when you mill it. Second will be wood for a couple lean-to shelters on two of my barns.

I figured I would take a log or 2 and turn them into stickers, never happened...I learned how to take them out of edgings. Takes a while doing it all on the mill but I have very little actual waste. Best time investment was building a shed right at the mill, my mill is stationary. It's a 2 minute walk from the house and shop but having all the tools, gas, blades, chainsaw, etc, there at the mill in a large cabinet is a huge time saver.
And I would agree completely with Alan, until your actually sawing there is very little fertile ground for the book learning to take root in. Spend this time learning tree species, walking your woodlot, aquiring/fixing support equipment, learn to sharpen a chainsaw, get prepared for blade maintenance, just all that other "stuff"...learning to become a sawyer is part learning your mill, part learning your timber, and taking the 2 and getting what you need out of them in the most efficient manner possible. There are so many variables in all this that it is tough to put on paper what it is you need to learn, hence we learn by doing. God bless you Jeep, it's a real fun ride!

Update: Here is a quick recap. Its been a while since I posted anything to this thread:

  I am retiring from the military. I was supposed to be starting terminal leave tomorrow, but due to COVID-19, my retirement is delayed by a couple months. I had one shoulder replaced about 17 months ago, and had the other replaced 2 weeks ago (low frequency vibration+military stuff+crappy genes=crappy shoulders). The left shoulder turned out really well, and the right (most recent) is already doing better than the left was at this stage in the recovery. I don't expect to have physical limitations even with the bilateral replacements based on the functionality I have with my left shoulder.
  Anyway, I stated earlier in the thread that I put a deposit on an LT-50 last October, with expected deliver in July. I let Wood-Mizer Carolina know today that I would not be taking delivery until September or October due to both the shoulder surgery and the delayed retirement.
  With the "best deal ever" on the LT-40 Super, I am wondering if two vertical back stops and chain turner are worth the $3000 extra I am paying for the LT50 over the claw and the claw and the pivoting back stops of the current-deal LT40. I know there is some utility to having the four pivoting back stops for short logs, but I don't know if the utility gained vs the vertical stops and chain turner is worth changing my order. I don't think it will be, as long as more than 75% of the logs I saw are 8+ ft. I plan to saw mostly mobile sawing other peoples' logs.
 I would like to tap in to the collective wisdom of the forum to confirm or deny my instinct here.

I would think that if you have dodgy shoulders, get all the power assist gizmos you can? Sawing is hard work simply because you have to move heavy stuff. The more you can do that with machinery, the longer your shoulders will last. 

They tell me the new shoulders will last 12-15 years. My thoughts exactly with the power stuff, just don't know if 4 powered back stops on the LT40 (vs 2 on the LT50) are worth an order change (and 3K). I think the chain turner will prove to be worth the extra expense. I cannot recall reading someone wished to go back to the claw once they experience a chain turner, even if the claw has some advantages.

Interesting chat at work the other day. Two of the rural mail drivers are ex milk tanker drivers. They had been through full day courses about Occupational Overuse Syndrome. Basically they are told to try and use their arms 90° to their body, directly in front of them, as opposed to flapping them like wings. Over the years they were finding tanker drivers having shoulder issues from hefting heavy hose couplings up onto vats, so they had a full days training on how to couple hoses to vats. It might have seemed pointless to the younger guys, but the guys that had been driving for 30 years saw the point.  

The chain turner and vertical backstops are a big upgrade. The extra "linked" horizontal backstops available on the 40 series are there on 50 & 70 but are manual so you can saw and clamp short pieces. I ordered the linked backstops on my 35 and found they were in the way more often then they were useful(think crooked logs, knot swells etc.). The linked stops will make you do more trimming and reduce mill capacity. You won't regret the 50.

Should may last 12-15 years, but is that sawing years? Lots of people do not work like we do.

The new 50's come with fine adjust outriggers.  For mobile sawing that should make setting up easier and faster.  For stationary sawing it would make tightening up a loose outrigger a lot less of an ordeal than the lever leg outrigger system that is standard on most mills.  I have never used the claw turner but I would hate to be without the chain turner after using one.

The chain turner is very fast compared to the claw. I'd say that is the main difference overall.  Also it turns both ways though the clockwise direction is less powerful. The claw has more finesse and can be used a little more easily than the chain to avoid scarring cant faces. The vertical uprights can be lowered even with moderate clamp pressure without shifting the work though sometimes the pivoting stops can be too. You can use the vertical uprights to gently lower large cants to keep them from falling with full force on the bed.Four linked uprights can help with shorter logs but there will always be ones that are still too short. The $3000 difference will be mitigated at resale by the fact that it is an LT 50. Most of the differences are about speed not capability.Some of the difference is preference not just increased cost. I've had both and on balance would rather have the chain and vertical uprights, But to some extent it is not just like some other accessory choice, it comes with whichever mill you want to buy. I put an 8 foot softwood 4 x 4 between the uprights as a fence when shorter logs are in the pile. Just turn around and drop it in the sawdust pile and then put it back on as needed. Very handy until the cant gets square edges.i

The chain is a huge step in both speed and function.  Yes, on the downside it will scar up faces, but you learn to flip cants with the clamp and avoid that issue.  I use my chain to do a lot of things beyond turning logs.  When QS pine I will create multiple cants from a single log then use the clamp to push them toward the loading arms, most of the time they won't fall on their own onto the arms but the chain will give me just enough of a flip to get them to go right over without ever touching them.  Then I use the arms, clamp and chain to bring them back into position to saw one at a time having never touched a single one.  I also use the chain and clamp to reverse flip tall, narrow, cants.  A claw can't do that, at least not without some grab and lift to get it started on your part many times.  

Personally I always thought the claw is an amazing design, then I got a chain and never looked back.  Worth $3K?  Yes, that's a chunk of change, but having run both I would say it's worth it. 

  Thanks all for the input. Right now I think I will go with my gut and keep the LT50 on order.

  thecfarm, I talked to the ortho doc at some length about what I will be able to do with two bionic shoulders, specifically about which movements were bad for them and which were not. The conversation boiled down to "pushing" is bad (like lifting things overhead, bench press, pushups, etc.), and pulling is not so bad (like picking things up from the ground or waist height, deadlift, etc.).
  I figure most of the work around the mill will involve more pulling than pushing, so I hope the shoulders will last. If I need to push something heavy or lift something substantial overhead, I'll use diesel powered hydraulics. If the fake shoulders wear out too quickly, they are both stemless, so there is plenty of bone left for next time.

60% or better of what I've been sawing for the last two years is live edge slabs 15" - 32" wide.  I saw a waste slab off the top and drag it back.  Than I saw slabs down to near the center of the log.  Lift the log with either the clamp or my vertical log stops and the slabs slide into the loader arms.  Flip log with the chain turner and take off the second waste slab which is also dragged back.  Saw slabs to the bed and lift pile with the clamp and chain turner.  Move towards the loader arms and the chain turner pushes them off onto the arms.  Pick up slabs with the forklift and repeat.  The only wood I touch with my hands is the two waste slabs, which I have to push on my roller tables into the slab dump.

Keep that LT-50......or take another look at TK.  A lot of slabs I saw I can't lift one end much less both ends.  I saw solo at home unless its more than 5,000 board foot so I like mills that make it easy.

I love sawing slabs.  Got a couple of really ugly walnut logs $$$$$$$ in the yard now that I'll show in the Whatcha Sawing thread in a couple of days.

Slabs from my gallery.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/IMG_1010.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1550026758)

Nice tips. Can't you lift the remaining ones with your roller toe boards and get your forks under it?  Looking forward to seeing the other pictures 

Yes, I can and often do with the biggest slabs. 

Thanks Larry. Looking forward to the pictures 😊

Larry, I am going to stick with the LT50, and I have had plenty of time since last year to reconsider a TK. I really like the direct hydraulics and the 38" cut capacity on their new TK 2020, which I think is most comparable to the LT50, but I opted for the Woodmizer for the ease of setup (I plan to be mostly mobile) and my proximity to a dealer. The LT50 is also a little cheaper with similar equipment (delivery for the TK is over 2K). Honestly, if I were planning to be stationary most of the time, I would probably go for the TK 2200. My decision would be much more difficult if the TK dealer was not so far away. Anyway, I guess I will find out if I made the right decision in the next couple years. Thanks again to all for the advice.

I'm sure you will be happy. There are quite a few happy guys on the Forum 👍

  So, I have been planning for the last 9 months or so to get an LT-50 when I retire and have a deposit on one already. My original plan was to do custom sawing at customer locations and then saw for myself at home.
  Since ordered it however, I have had another shoulder replaced (my 2nd), and I also have low back issues that are stable for now but I don't want to make that situation worse than it already is. Originally I thought I would be able to overcome my physical obstacles and follow through with my plan, but now I'm not so sure.
  I've been thinking for the last month or so about just getting an LT-35 instead of the 50. That way I can learn to saw before going all in, not worry about having the hassel of a business, not worry about liability or business insurance, and save 25K to boot. I can always sell the LT-35 and upgrade later if I feel the need.
  I really want to get the 50, but I think the 35 will do everything I need it to for my personal needs, and I don't know that I can justify the 25K price difference for the convenience of a motorized adjustable guide, vertical stops, Accuset 2, and chain turner if I am only sawing as a hobby. At the same time, I don't want to regret getting the 35 instead of the 50.
  I am interested to hear your opinions. I would be especially interested to hear from those who have an LT-35, or had one and upgraded. For those who have one, does it do everything you need it to? For those who upgraded, is the performance difference between them great enough to justify the price difference for a hobby? Thanks.

My first mill was a 35, I still have it and use it as a resaw. It took me from hobby sawing, into portable sawing, and the foundation of my business. 

When it came time to upgrade the 50 didn't make sense enough for the investment, so I ended up getting a Super 70.

The nice thing about the 35 is you have time to see what you are doing and really get to learn how to saw as a result, and have the hydraulic capacity to do the grunt work. 

I don't think you would regret starting with a 35 and adjusting as your plan does. 

I owned and operated an assortment of mills over the years( Timberking B16, Meadows #2 portable, LT70(diesel & elec), LT15, and LT35. 

The bells and whistles on the 70 are nice but they come at a cost and the cost goes beyond purchase price. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and mine is that electronics and harsh operating conditions are not an ideal match. The more little motors, wires, switches, and connections you have the more their will be to fail. The more complicated the mill the higher the number of repairs. The LT15 we used to 4 side small logs into ties and ran the 2 heavy slabs through a re-saw. That mill just ran. Gas, oil, couple of belts.

LT70's were impressive. Sawyer sat in a climate controlled cab. My parts order history looks like I was building mills as a sideline. Many times one issue causes others. In 2013 I spent over 17,000 on sawmill parts and repairs. I tracked blades and sharpening in a different category. Wesawed over 1.5 million bf that year. Blade guide motors and debarker swing arm motors were consumable parts that I kept spares for on the shelf.

I also think the "remote" figures into the equation. Wires don't like mice eating on them, they don't like abrasion, and they don't like being constantly flexed moving back an forth. Overhead is an improvement over cord reel or cat track but flex enough and you will have a failure. Walk or ride with eliminates lots of wires.

With the 35 you still have hydraulics for the heavy lifting and turning, simple set for accuracy, and de-barker. To me the only real downside is loss of drag back. I sawed more than a few big logs on my 70s and was glad my 35 couldn't saw them. 

The 50 is a nice machine but I would say it would be a little harder to get your money back out of. If I am going to spend spend 50K I am going to buy new and get all the warranty vs buying your low hour/no warranty machine. Take a few grand off the price of a low hour LT35 and it will sell the day you post it. Take 5 grand off a low hour LT50 and it will sit. Seen it happen more than once.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

@Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297), I know from reading on the forum that you started with and still have a 35, so any comments from you are on target and are much appreciated.
@stavebuyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15189), thanks for the comments on maintenance and recouping costs when reselling. Also on complications with added electronics, motors, cat tracks, etc. I think it was Scotty form Star Trek who said "the more you overwork the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain". A less complex mill will be easier to maintain. Your points will definitely affect my decision.

If I do get the LT-35, I will order it with a diesel motor. Does the LT-35 diesel have enough torque to reliably run turbo 7 blades in most types of wood?

I had no trouble running Turbo 7's in Oak with the 25hp gas Kohler. To me the LT35 with the liquid cooled Yanmar diesel is much more mill than the base 40 with the 26 hp gas Kohler.  It may not handle as big of a log but what it does handle it will saw faster. That combo will serve you well. A close friend of mine bought one of the first of those Yanmar's and it was pretty impressive.

Complete agree with stavebuyer there. All I run on my 35 are Turbos and it has the gas Kohler. It would wallop with a diesel.

Whatever mill you buy, horsepower is king. 

I had a LT40 with a Yanmar and it had no problem pulling .055 Turbos.

I haven't been able to spend much time on the forum latrly so have not kept up with this thread.

May I suggest going with the LT40 Hydraulic with the 38 gas Kohler. It gives you the base mill that can be upgraded LT40 Super with wood mizer upgrade kits, as health and cash flow allow. Price difference to the 35 is not a lot and the LT40 is bit more robust than 35.

Going to a diesel is an option BUT it bumps the price a fair bit and does not deliver a lot more productivity. The Kohler engines are reliable and deliver good torque for a gas powered engine and they run pretty cheap.

Its basically what I did and I don't regret it. The upgrades cost me roughly what it would have cost me to buy a Super from the start but I didn't have the $$ to do that so went the upgrade route. If I calculated my labor/shop time to do the upgrades it would be a bit of an expensive venture, but I have the shop, tools and know how so it was a good option for me. Might work for you too.  

Bandmill Bandit, I considered buying the standard LT-40 to try and get some of the useful upgrades I would miss with an LT-35, but once I got done building it (with the diesel, not gas), I was only about 10K from where I am with the LT-50. For 10K difference, I would get the LT-50. My decision should probably come down to whether or not I will use the mill for business. That is the fence I am on right now, and I am having a tough time deciding what to do. I guess I have until the end of the week - the sale on the LT-35 will be over on the 31st. 

some will lock in sale prices if you have a deposit.  you are young so I would get the most mill you can since you will have many years to get you value out of it, weather for business or personal use.  I wish I had bought mine 15 years earlier, and now the prices are up over 35% from about 7 years ago.  I am sure you do not need my opinion, but if it helps nudge you in a direction you really want to go anyway, so be it.  I think I could sell my mill now, for what I paid for it.












































5

I bought the LT35HD because it was as cheap now as it was 7 or 8 years ago when I first started looking at mills.
I am buying for personal use.
At the pricing today I think I can keep it for a year or so and sell for about I paid .

Why would you do that when you got such a good deal 

I do not want to sell mine, but if I upgraded I could sell mine and be even, and then buy the bigger better mill.  All the money I spend on my "toys"  could be recouped to a great extent by my family if something happened to me, so really it is not lost money.  That is how I think about it, and what I tell my wife! :) much of my equipment is still worth what I paid for it (not accounting for inflation) but dollar for dollar a wash.

Quote from: Esaw on July 27, 2020, 07:49:55 PM
I bought the LT35HD because it was as cheap now as it was 7 or 8 years ago when I first started looking at mills.
I am buying for personal use.
At the pricing today I think I can keep it for a year or so and sell for about I paid .

I would sell if I decided that sawing wasn't for me or if I wanted a bigger mill. By the way the deal on the LT35HD goes away on 8/1

You can put a deposit on the 35 and likely hold it with the sale price past that date. Probably 1000. Ask if you can apply this to another mill if you don't get the 35. The 50 will probably go on sale next.

when I bought my TK and put a deposit down, it locked in the price before it went up.  I waited on delivery and payment in full for over a year.  and I was told it was fully refundable, if I changed my mind.  just a step forward and showing earnest.  I think it was $1,000.

I do have a deposit on the LT-50 currently, from the sale they had last October. I don't know if they will let me put a deposit down to hold the price on another mill until I get myself figured out.

Quote from: doc henderson on July 28, 2020, 01:13:46 AM
when I bought my TK and put a deposit down, it locked in the price before it went up.  I waited on delivery and payment in full for over a year.  and I was told it was fully refundable, if I changed my mind.  just a step forward and showing earnest.  I think it was $1,000.

Are you saying your deposit held it for a year?

Pretty sure the Yanmar diesel on the LT35 is below the "DEF" threshold. It is a bullet proof fuel sipping engine. The LT35 is a fully hydraulic mill including roller toe boards and computer setworks.  In my opinion it offers the most value per dollar cost of any mill sold and an is excellent choice as a personal use sawmill. 

Yes, to a degree inflation does somewhat offset depreciation but that doesn't come close to being a sound justification to over-buy equipment. A 25K price difference invested somewhere else at 6% for 10 years would be worth $44,771 or could be used to build a nice shop. I want to see an example of anyone buying a 25K new sawmill and selling it 10 years later for $44K. Getting what you paid 10 years down the road is still a loss of 3% per year in purchasing power.

But the sawmill is not going to just sit there for that 10 years.  You are receiving value every time that it is used. 

Every time?  Including those when the mill itself is used to shorten the backstops?  :D

WB yes.  there was no pressure or time limit.  they did call when they had one and someone coming this way to deliver.  but it was returnable and not limited to a specified time frame, and locked in the price before an increase.  I am sure it is a sales gimmick, and it worked and saved me some money.  I was able to work through any buyer remorse before I was actually committed.  kind of like the 30 day no questions return policy, although I am sure they would work to make things right.

I am not saying you make money on the deal, or it offsets inflation.  I am saying it is better than a 50 K car that in 7 years is worth 6K on trade in.  so My goose neck trailer, track loader, and sawmill, and shop equipment, would help upgrade to newer, bigger, better equipment, and or support my family in my absence.  so it is not like 40k you will never see again.  My wife would sometimes complain of the cost.  when I added up running shoes and outfits, as well as cost of trips to half marathons with hotel and nice meals, her running "habit"  costs the same as my sawmill over 10 years.  we will never see that money again.  she enjoys it, but at least there will be some value retained in the chunks of iron we all collect.  anyone in the market for used running shoes?  prob. have 12 pair in the closet.  8) ::) :-\

oh yeah, and you get all the use over time, and if in business can hopefully make a dime! ;)  I get in less trouble with a red sawmill, compared to a red convertible driving around town!   :).  I do not know or want to know someone else's financial situation.  but if you are going to upgrade and spend money later anyway, may be good to jump on in if you can.  I agree also that a hobby guy can do with less, than if production is part of the profit goal's.  I am sure he will figure this out, despite all my advice!   :D :D :D

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on July 28, 2020, 01:00:06 AM
You can put a deposit on the 35 and likely hold it with the sale price past that date. Probably 1000. Ask if you can apply this to another mill if you don't get the 35. The 50 will probably go on sale next.

Forgot about the history here.  Hope you can get sawing soon put all these questions behind and take on new ones. 

I was in a similar position in 2007 when I bought my mill, but the LT35 was not available in when I bought my mill or it would have been a toss up between that and the LT40 hydraulic at that time. However, Knowing what I know today and with the experience of ending up doing mostly custom milling and SOME personal milling I am very glad the 35 was NOT available at the time. 

Having said that the mills I'd consider today would be an LT40 Super OR an LT50 and I would likely go with the 50 because of the experience I have and a growing customer base that I am not really pursuing very hard. 

The reason I didn't go Super at the time was that I figured custom work would be less than a 1/3 of my sawing which made mill price a larger consideration on the purchase priority list. As it stands now, personal milling makes up maybe 10% of my milling so anything less than an LT40 Super is really not in the cards at all. 

This is not meant to diss the the 35! It is a great little mill but it is maxed out the day you bring it home with no options to upgrade to unless you sell and up grade the model. 

From reading your posts your already past the LT35 and you haven't even milled your first log. Once you do your first custom milling job the customer will come out of the proverbial wood work at a fairly steady rate. 

Having operated a 40 super and a 50 I find very little real advantage of the 50 over the Super. The chain tuner is nice but once you have the claw and clamp technics honed I dont think it is really any quicker, and the chain can mark up a cant about the same as the claw. the clam is how I flip ALL cants when cutting framing lumber and really doubt that would change on a 50.        
      

Quote from: doc henderson on July 28, 2020, 08:41:54 AM
oh yeah, and you get all the use over time, and if in business can hopefully make a dime! ;)  I get in less trouble with a red sawmill, compared to a red convertible driving around town!   :).  I do not know or want to know someone else's financial situation.  but if you are going to upgrade and spend money later anyway, may be good to jump on in if you can.  I agree also that a hobby guy can do with less, than if production is part of the profit goal's.  I am sure he will figure this out, despite all my advice!   :D :D :D

The right red convertible could be a good investment especially if you keep it parked LOL I agree that most hobby dollars are gone for good the day you spend them. The sawmill shines compared to a golf membership. I also wouldn't argue that sawing for a living I would buy the LT50 as ordered. Being the not so proud owner of a back that probably needs surgery; I know for a fact that the only reason I sold my 35 is so I would stop being tempted to keep re-injuring my back with it and I have not had any issues since the mill went down the road. Others have said they have no trouble sawing with back troubles. I can't speak to their experience but I have spoken to all the trials and tribulations of legally running a small business and for my part I would buy the 35 and forgo dealing with the public and the bureaucracy that comes with running a business.

I don't disagree with bandit. I ran a 40 super for 19 years, I think it's the sweet spot in the Woodmizer line. I would tend towards the diesel, lubemizer, debarked and front remote myself. Unless you are convinced that ridind instead of standing would be best for you physically. 

I don't disagree with Stavebuyer either. ???

Following up on his comment about legally running a business,Since your plan is to go mobile,Check the requirements in your state for having a US DOT number if towing a sawmill in business. Combined GVWR of your truck with GVWR of the sawmill is the weight limit to consider. My state is 18,000 pounds or less no need for USDot number if I stay in the state. That has been the big plus for me. My LT 40 was 4500 pounds GVWR. My new LT 70 super is 6000 pound GVWR. My F350 has always been 9900 pounds. In many states if you're over 10,000 you have to display a USDOT number And obey all the rules that go with it which are oppressive. If I get a new truck to use with my new saw mill in my state, that means I have to limit it's GVWR to 12,000 pounds. And no matter where you live if you plan to cross state lines in business, towing almost any sawmill plus truck combination puts you over 10,000 pounds which is a federal limit above what you need a US DOT number. Conceivably, if an LT 35 has a GVWR of 3500 pounds, you might be able to find a used jeep or something similar to keep your combined weight under 10,000 pounds. If you did do this then you might consider the LT 35 a blessing in this regard.

The paragraph that Just I wrote above, might give you a flavor (a bad one too) of what Stavebuyer was alluding to in legally doing business. Sorry.

If I was buying new today it would be my exact sawmill:

LT40 SuperHydraulic/Diesel and with an Operator's Seat.

terrifictimbersllc, in order to say under the 10000 lb limit for truck and trailer, I only have a couple options, especially in late model vehicles. I settled on a 2013-2015 Toyota Tacoma. This truck has a GWVR of 5500 lbs, but has no GCWR from the factory (as far as I have been able to determine). The LT-50 has a GVWR of 4300 lbs, so the combined GWVR of the truck and trailer together do not exceed the 10000 lb limit. 2016 and newer Tacomas have a factory GCWR of over 10000 lbs (11500 I think), so I think they fall under the USDOT rules. I am on the lookout for a suitable 2013-2015 Tacoma to buy when I get home.

If you dont want to plan to cross state lines your limit might be higher.  Awhile back I was under the impression NC might be 26000#. 

I think that the 26,000 (GVWR of vehicle or vehicles in combination) refers to the need for a CDL for the operator.  I was informed that the GVWR of the tow vehicle was added to the actual weight of the trailer to determine whether USDOT was required. Combined vehicle weight rating was not part of that determination, although it does have application in other regulations.  

My F350 dually has a GVWR of 11,200 so I was over before even considering the mill.  After learning that I had to comply with USDOT, I did look into whether I could find a smaller pickup for hauling the mill legally.  I think that you might find that those pickups with 5500 GVWRs might not be rated to pull the weight of your mill.  My B-20, from the factory, had a gross weight of 3980 pounds, plus fuel, on mill tool boxes, fire extinguisher, etc.

The capability of the tow vehicle was one of the considerations that made the pool of suitable vehicles so small. The Tacoma I mentioned has a tow capacity of 6500 lbs with the tow package.

I have said this a million times, but I am going to say it again.

JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN, DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD!

I have a 13k tow rating on my f-150. I have had 10k behind it.It pulled it great. but controlling it was a whole nother matter.

Just get a new decked out 75k dually. Then you won't have any issues pulling 😂😂

I was referring to thinking I've seen (I am not sure) that the need to display USDOTNC (intrastate NC) kicked in at 26001# combined GVWRs, like a few other states have it. Yes I realize that This is also a threshold for CDL but not confusing the two.

I once had a list of all 50 states weight requirements for having USDOTXY #. (XY is the abbreviation of the state and is displayed for intrastate carriers in commerce).  I'll try to find it.

In the meantime, here is an article from a compliance outfit, that succinctly describes how I understand the situation. It just doesnt have a list of the states.  
https://woodruffsawyer.com/property-casualty/fleet-weight-regulations-dot/ (https://woodruffsawyer.com/property-casualty/fleet-weight-regulations-dot/)


And here is a 2012 NC link that says that 26001 pounds or more, in business,  needs a USDOTNC number. https://www.ncdps.gov/press-release/new-program-requires-intrastate-usdot-numbers (https://www.ncdps.gov/press-release/new-program-requires-intrastate-usdot-numbers)

A company would be required to obtain a USDOT number if it operates a commercial motor vehicle in intrastate commerce that:
Has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), a gross combination weight rating (GCWR), a gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross combination weight (GCW) of 26,001 pounds or more: or Is designed or used to transport more than 16 passengers, including the driver, or Is used in transporting hazardous materials in a quantity requiring placarding pursuant to 49 C.F.R. Parts 170 through 185.
This requirement is not limited to "trucking companies." As defined by law, a "motor carrier" is any commercial enterprise that uses such vehicles in its business operation and as a result it is subject to Federal Motor Carrier Safety regulations.

I have a 14' box truck for my day job. Gross weight 12,100 lbs.  The DOT pulled me over a couple of years ago and explained it to me. Over 10,000 lbs. You have to have a number , over 26,000lbs you have to have a CDL. My truck is a 3500      ( 1 ton ) . With DOT numbers you have to have everything a " big " truck has ( fire extinguishers, triangles, health card , etc. ) except the CDL. My argument was all the 1 ton pickups on the road and the officer said " probably , but I have you pulled over right now. ". This is in Georgia.

@Crusarius (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=35059), I am confident the Tacoma with the tow package can handle 4300 lbs just fine. Towing a heavy load is not usually the issue, stopping is, so in addition to the tow package, I will also have a properly calibrated brake controller, so I don't think there will be an issue towing just over 2/3 of the factory rated capacity. 
@Walnut Beast (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=49695), I already have the dually. Just don't want to use it for "business" purposes.

I think you will be fine towing that weight

  We'll, if anyone was wondering, I decided to stick with the LT-50. It is already waiting on me at Woodmizer NC, so I didn't want to cancel on them. On top of that, my wife said I should go ahead and get the 50 because "you'll end up buying it next year anyway". I'll take the advice of some FF members and skip the sharpener/setter for now. That will offset the cost a bit. I'll reconsider getting my own sharpening stuff next time they go on sale.
  Thanks to everyone for all the advice.

That is a very reasonable way to go, you end up with mill to grow into and honestly, you will have enough to wrap your head around without worrying about sharpening your own bands.  

 smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 31, 2020, 08:06:31 PM
 We'll, if anyone was wondering, I decided to stick with the LT-50. It is already waiting on me at Woodmizer NC, so I didn't want to cancel on them. On top of that, my wife said I should go ahead and get the 50 because "you'll end up buying it next year anyway". I'll take the advice of some FF members and skip the sharpener/setter for now. That will offset the cost a bit. I'll reconsider getting my own sharpening stuff next time they go on sale.
 Thanks to everyone for all the advice.

Get a box of 7° trubo carbides when you pick up your mill. The value of the sharpening equipment is diminished quite bit with using the carbides. Resharp is a good option when you get 10MBF + per sharp cycle.
 

Congratulations 👍

Congratulations, wishing you the best.  I doubt you'll think much about whether you made a good decision. 

great decision.  I do not remember when your stint is over, but let me be one of the first to welcome you home to civilian life.  Thank you for your service.

Thanks Doc. My "final out" was on the 29th. My terminal leave starts today and we leave Hawaii tonight. We'll be eating Smithfield's BBQ for dinner by tomorrow evening! Then I guess I'll start preping for the hurricane...

Good luck on the new direction. It sure sounds like you've got a plan worked out, and a good one. 

The best part is that you'll be able to get real barbecue. That alone will give you a good foundation for dealing with this hurricane we're expecting. Like all weather, we won't know what it'll be til it gets here. 

Travel safely and good luck with everything. Be sure to let us know how that first barbecue works out.  

Did you double check to make sure you didn't accidentally pack any souvenir lava?  ;D

Don't worry @Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297). I didn't accidentally pack any lava belonging to the People's Republic of Hawaii.

   Reminds me one time when I heard a young Marine complaining about being stationed on Okinawa. A wizened old senior NCO said "Its our own d__n fault. As many Marines as have passed through this island, if each of us had just taken a half a seabag full of sand and coral home with us each time this place would be gone by now and we would not have to keep coming back."

   Welcome home. Enjoy the BBQ. Not sure if I'd want the Smithfields or Sonny's but either way I am sure you will do well. To be fair try them both. Which part of NC are you returning to? 

   I know I am going into withdrawal not being able to see my grandson and granddaughter in Charlotte. Stay safe.

  Hawaii has a rule about talking sand, rocks, lava, or pretty much anything else from the island (unless you are a resident selling it to the tourists - then its OK). The state is most protective of the black sand, green sand, and lava rock. I think the last one is kind of funny because the 2018 eruption created 875 acres of new land on the big island. All lava rock now. Anyway, I don't like the traffic and crowds much, but Hawaii is good for the most part. Good weather, lots to do (if you like hiking and beach related activities), you just have to know where not to go to stay out of trouble.
  We are heading back to Dunn, NC. I've never heard of Sonny's, so Smithfield's is definitely better! There is one about 10 min from the house.

Welcome back and congrats on retirement.  I'm in grantham so not far from you.  

It has been a long wait, but I am finally going to pick my mill up next Friday at Wood-Mizer Carolina. If anyone has input on what I should pay the most attention to, or what you wish you would have spent more time going over when you picked up a mill in the past, I would love to hear it. Also, thanks to Tammy at LogRite for helping me out with selecting the right cant hooks and a fetching arch.

I would say make sure you really understand how to set up and pack up the sawmill.  When setting it into the travel position there are a number of steps you have to take, in the right order, or things won't fit, could get bent, etc.  Likewise when setting the mill up to saw, knowing how to properly set the legs up will save you a lot of frustration down the road.  

If possible I would record the training session so you have it for reference later on.  

Don't just assume that the mill is adjusted correctly, go over the basic procedure real time.  It should be dialed in, but even if it is, you will have a baseline in case something changes later on.  

Quote from: Bandmill Bandit on July 31, 2020, 10:49:57 PM

Quote from: jeepcj779 on July 31, 2020, 08:06:31 PM
 We'll, if anyone was wondering, I decided to stick with the LT-50. It is already waiting on me at Woodmizer NC, so I didn't want to cancel on them. On top of that, my wife said I should go ahead and get the 50 because "you'll end up buying it next year anyway". I'll take the advice of some FF members and skip the sharpener/setter for now. That will offset the cost a bit. I'll reconsider getting my own sharpening stuff next time they go on sale.
 Thanks to everyone for all the advice.

Get a box of 7° trubo carbides when you pick up your mill. The value of the sharpening equipment is diminished quite bit with using the carbides. Resharp is a good option when you get 10MBF + per sharp cycle.

 Carbide would be  fine until you hit a pole barn nail , drywall screw, or lag screw.  Steve  

Quote from: Southside on September 24, 2020, 10:46:05 PM
I would say make sure you really understand how to set up and pack up the sawmill.  When setting it into the travel position there are a number of steps you have to take, in the right order, or things won't fit, could get bent, etc.  Likewise when setting the mill up to saw, knowing how to properly set the legs up will save you a lot of frustration down the road.  

If possible I would record the training session so you have it for reference later on.  

Cant improve on this advice.  Failure to comply can lead to:
sawmill pointing to the sky
sawmill rolling down a hill
sawmill tipping over
sawmill getting bent or broken
somebody getting hurt or worse

You may have to ask them to pack up and set up again if you want to see it, if they are demoing your mill, as you'll be engrossed in the operation and may run out of time to ask them to set it up again.   Packing up is the exact reverse of setting up except when setting up you are making judgments about how high to have the front 3 jacks before bringing the head forward.

Hopefully you're already familiar with towing.

Ask whatever comes to mind.   Enjoy the experience it only happens once.  Well, once per new sawmill.  :D

Quote from: ladylake on September 25, 2020, 04:30:14 AMCarbide would be fine until you hit a pole barn nail , drywall screw, or lag screw. Steve

I completely agree with Steve.  When sawing logs you are virtually guaranteed to occasionally hit metal, rocks, etc.  I trashed two "new out of the box" blades while sawing my last job which cost the customer $60, whereas the cost of carbide blades would have been $180.

There is no way to justify this to the customer.  Normal blade wear is my cost and the customer is not concerned whether I can saw 500 or 5,000 bf with a blade.  He certainly would care if the damaged blade cost was $90 vs $30.

Quote from: YellowHammer on September 24, 2020, 11:17:20 PM
Don't just assume that the mill is adjusted correctly, go over the basic procedure real time.  It should be dialed in, but even if it is, you will have a baseline in case something changes later on.  

and changes will occur!  Learn how to do the field adjustments, have the tools (and spares) with you.  Nothing worse than having to stop a job and leave because you didn't have a spare bandwheel belt or drive belt ;) (ask me how I know).
I've had to do several belt adjustments in the field, get used to it, get good at it (you will) and be prepared for it. 

Good point.  Have them go over maintenance procedures with you, things like drive belt tension, setting the setworks bed height, band alignment.  It's all in the book - somewhere - and trying to find it and then figure it out on a Saturday afternoon in front of a customer when there is nobody to call will be frustrating to say the least.  

As someone who is also interested in getting a mill I have been watching this thread. With your time served I'm sure you no how to sniff out the BS and pay attention to the important. With wood like everything else in life, when you think you know it all is when you get smacked down hard. Enjoy your new mill, I'll be interested to see how your journey goes!!  ;D

I will heed the advice of all the seasoned sawyers regarding the use of carbide blades. I may buy a few to use for my own purposes on trees I am reasonably certain have no metal, ceramic, rocks or other inclusions that will damage a blade. If I find that the boards are significantly smoother once sawn with the carbide, I may keep a couple for customer use if they desire a smoother finish without planing. They will just have to agree to the additional cost of the blade if damaged by foreign objects in their logs.

I was once told by a WM rep that the carbide blades were really for resawing cants

OlJarhead, that makes sense. I would not open a log with one. I would only use the carbides to saw cants where I wanted to have a smooth surface on the boards, as I do not have a planer.

The board may be smooth coming off of the log with the carbide, but it will roughen up as it dries, so you won't have a planer type finish when it's all said and done. 

I guess I will have to get a kiln and a planer if that is the case... I know the dark parts of the rings dry thicker than the lighter parts (at least in pine). I have old barn wood that displays this tendency.

I keep double hard, bimetal and carbides in the blade box that goes to the jobs with me. Since I have a debarker I use carbide when I know I am cutting trees out of the bush UNLESS they are off a fence line. Then I use one of the other 2.

With the cut quality, production per sharp cycle, productivity & fuel savings per day I get from the carbides they cost quite bit less per BF than anything else I have used and the lumber is at least 10% more valuable when you sell it than ALL other blades I've used to date. 

I did the math a while ago and it is about 50% less for overall blade cost per  BF  UNTILL you hit a foreign object on the second cut after changing to a new blade. I've only had that happen 2 times so it is really not a big deal when you are on your 6th box of the carbides. Also my foreign object/metal strike price is $100 bucks regardless of blade on the mill. The time to correct the damage dig out the metal and get rolling again is worth at least that much.      

I go to Wood-Mizer Carolina on Friday to pick up my LT-50. When I am there, I plan to get 3 boxes (10ea) of turbo 7's and 2 boxes of 4 degree doublehards. I hope that is enough to get me going without having to wait on resharp; if anyone has an opinion to give on that, I would love to hear it. They are about two weeks on turn-around for resharp right now, so I hope that is enough to have a rotation going while I am cutting my teeth learning to saw. I think I will need more than that after I start taking jobs. Also, as some have suggested, I am going to try to record the whole training session when I pick up the mill. We will see how it goes with me trying to film and pay attention at the same time.

I think I started with about that many and did fine.  did not need anything sharpened for 4 or 5 months.  depends on how much you plan to saw.  I have heard guys got through about 2 a day if sawing all day long.  if you are doing 5 full days a week that is 10 per week.

I don't plan on sawing too hard until after the first of the year - enough to learn and hopefully end up with some decent B+B siding for my barn, but not full time for sure. So far, retirement is a lot of work and I have plenty to do. I spend most of my time catching up on maintenance, yard work, and home/barn repairs from the last 3 years being gone. We are also getting our household goods delivered the middle of October, so I'll be busy unpacking for at least a week. I'll probably saw whenever I get a couple spare hours.

welcome home!

Thanks. Glad to be home.

Quote from: jeepcj779 on September 30, 2020, 08:29:30 PM
I go to Wood-Mizer Carolina on Friday to pick up my LT-50. When I am there, I plan to get 3 boxes (10ea) of turbo 7's and 2 boxes of 4 degree doublehards. I hope that is enough to get me going without having to wait on resharp; if anyone has an opinion to give on that, I would love to hear it.

I know this is old, but I'd love to hear how those blades worked out for you that I suspect you've now gotten a chance to use a bit?

Ahhh yes, retirement!  The time you go to work for yourself and work MORE than you did when someone else was calling the shots LOL

Enjoy it!  You're doing well by the sounds of it!  Keep on marching!

FYI, I run 75 bands now but started with 30 I think....then 45, then 60 LOL  I have 45 out to resharp now!  Good thing I had 75 cause I ran through quite a few recently and am down to my last 15 or so but should be seeing my first box come back from WM soon so will dodge the bullet there I think.

It really depends on how much sawing you do in the end.  I do less than most (only milled 35000bf this year) so can get away with longer lead times etc with resharp than say a 'Jake Dean' who probably runs though more bands in a week than I do all summer ;)