Author Topic: Cannon Bars (Read 3021 times)

Walnut Beast · « **on:** January 09, 2023, 09:16:30 PM »

Is anybody running them out there ? The regular and lite bars. Thoughts ?

sawguy21 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2023, 01:14:49 AM »

They have a reputation for high quality but hang onto your hat at the price, they are not cheap.

donbj · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2023, 01:36:15 AM »

Quote from: sawguy21 on January 10, 2023, 01:14:49 AM

hang onto your hat at the price, they are not cheap.

I'd let the hat go, wallet is what I'd be concerned about:D

Patrick NC · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2023, 05:27:54 AM »

I know there will be some that disagree, but I've had good luck with forester bars. The cheap green letter ones. Ii have a 16" on my 550xp and both 20" and 28" for my 372xp. They have all held up well and at 1/3 the price of husqvarna bars my wallet likes them too.

Greenhighlander · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2023, 07:42:54 AM »

I have been running one on my milling saw for a couple years now. I cannot think of a single thing to complain about.

JimStC · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2023, 08:17:19 AM »

I tried ordering a Cannon Bar from Canadian Equipment Outfitters and was told that the wait time was 1.5 years.
This was about two weeks ago. It made me wonder about production issues.

charles mann · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2023, 12:21:40 PM »

I was thinking of this brand bar last nite. I didnt know the lead time was so great.
I wonder what it would cost to have a bar made at a machine shop. If i remember tomorrow, i’ll swing by a local shop and see what it would cost.

lxskllr · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2023, 12:42:34 PM »

The hard part of having one bespoke made at a machine shop is steel. I have no idea what constitutes an acceptable steel for bar use. Everything has to be right, or it'll wear out, bend, or break at unacceptable times.

charles mann · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2023, 02:21:14 PM »

Quote from: lxskllr on January 10, 2023, 12:42:34 PM

The hard part of having one bespoke made at a machine shop is steel. I have no idea what constitutes an acceptable steel for bar use. Everything has to be right, or it'll wear out, bend, or break at unacceptable times.

I have no idea either. Thats why talking to a guy that possibly does know is better than just winging it.
Back in 2017, while working south of portland, or, i was put in contact with a guy that would build custom bars. He said he used 4140 steel and did the heat treating in house but only treated 3/8” of the outer edge for the chain running surface and a strip down the middle of the bar, leaving the ability to flex and return back to shape.

Im sure plenty of people here have bent bars before, so its not like these big name brands are much better than ole’ so n so.
I spent 2hrs yesterday filing down and cleaning up my oregon 42” bar, from the where the chain wore down the bar enough to create a sharp lip on the back 8”, and got worse closer to the drive sprocket.
My file dug into the oregon bar with ease, compared to the stihl bar that had a better heat treating, if the oregon was treated to begin with.
The bar has only been used the bar 3x, 2x was to buck 2 big pecan trees and the other was milling a red oak and getting 6 good usable 3” slabs out it, the top and bottom cut and a probably filler/bowtie/knife handle wood. Im still on the 1st chain i purchased with the bar.
I would expect a better quality out of oregon, but this bar fell way short.

Real1shepherd · « **Reply #9 on:** January 10, 2023, 04:19:16 PM »

A guy that would know better than 'winging it' is Rich Dougan, The ChainsawGuy. He's forgotten more about chainsaws and bars than all of the YouTube experts combined. He had real custom machinery at his shop on the Oregon coast that dealt with bent, broken, and butchered-up bars. If anyone could tell ya it was feasible to make bars for a reasonable price, he could.

I started loggin' with General bars...made in Oregon, then Oregon(mostly the price) and finally ended with Cannon. Cannon has no real peers.....except some rep contacted me once about some Euro bars that were laser cut and "supposed" to be the equivalent to Cannon. Made them for harvesters too(I think that's how they started).

But once over here, there was really no price difference, so why gamble on an unknown(to me)?

Not rocket science....run a nice sharp file across the chain rail and that will tell you how hard the bar is there. Since I have old Oregon bars still, I can compare them with newer Oregon bars. But....it's been a loooong time since I bought any new bars.......heard bad things about some newer Oregon bars. They have five 'models' now in their "product family".

Kevin

charles mann · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2023, 04:33:22 PM »

I might have gotten an oregon bar that missed the heat treating conveyor or it was a very very poor treatment process. But if what i got was oregon’s normal heat treating process, id pay the machine shop 3x the cost of the oregon for guess in proper material vs. buying another oregon. Plus if the shop can get it right, it’ll be much faster than the 1.5 yr for cannon, even though id like to get one.
Iv heard nothing but great things about cannon, but until 3 months ago, i didnt have a need to spend the $700 on a bar, and def dont want to wait the time its possibly going to take to get one.

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #11 on:** January 10, 2023, 05:10:06 PM »

Lots of talk and opinions on running cheap stuff vs high quality stuff. I’ve had lots of high quality stuff and nobody is going to convince me it’s as good as high quality stuff. Just like a Rolex and Timex watch. Sure they both tell the time but that’s were it ends. Bottom line is quality stuff costs more……

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #12 on:** January 10, 2023, 05:20:40 PM »

Just had a great conversation with the owner of Cannon bars. Bill. We talked about the cheap bars, what sets them apart and why they typically run 50 to 75 % higher. He’s been with the company since the 70s and took over ownership in the 90s. He made the selection process of bars and chain size very smooth with talking to him and emailing me the exact bars I need to get.

charles mann · « **Reply #13 on:** January 10, 2023, 06:00:20 PM »

@Walnut Beast
Is it cannon in general that has long lead times which is passed on to the retailers? I cant find much of anything in the USA that are in stock or dont have 4-6 month lead time. I have though, found in stock or short lead time on bars in AUS.

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #14 on:** January 10, 2023, 06:45:39 PM »

Bailey's will be your best bet probably. To cut through everything I had Bill look on his computer what was in stock of what I wanted and his opinions. Then email me the links so we were on the same page. If they don’t have anything in stock or the stuff I was looking for it was November before the next stock will be ready. One bar that was in stock didn’t have the right front sprocket but he said I can change it out fairly quick and I’m good on the lite bar for the 500i I’m getting. I wanted 63 gauge in 3/8 and asked his opinions he said it is absolutely better in almost all aspects. Then for the Big boy 881 I’m getting 404 is absolutely better

charles mann · « **Reply #15 on:** January 10, 2023, 07:02:52 PM »

Baileys was one of the retailers that were saying 6-8 months. If i was making a living with the bar, that is one thing, but tying my $700 up for 6-8 month, no, not for 1, maybe 2x a yr use.
Thats why i was looking overseas for availability. iv got 2 acft full of pilots and mechs working in aus on fires, so im gonna see bout one of them bringing a bar back with them on the airline, instead of the quoted 45-90 day shipping.

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #16 on:** January 10, 2023, 07:07:13 PM »

I don’t blame you! It looks to be in the 270 range on the ones I’m looking at

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #17 on:** January 10, 2023, 07:12:32 PM »

One note. On the dura lite bar I’m going to get he said to get the bar adapter so the S1 will work on the Husqvarna also. That bar is around 250

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #18 on:** January 10, 2023, 07:23:49 PM »

In our conversations about proprietary steel they use and the chrome moly used in the bars I said besides the strength of the bars the chain should have less resistance than the soft steel cheap bars. He agreed

charles mann · « **Reply #19 on:** January 10, 2023, 08:14:57 PM »

Certain 4140 is a chrome moly steel. Mcmaster carr has some 4140 chrime moly, but not in the parameter i think i need. Gonna see what the machinist can get in american made steel. It might cost me more than a mass produced good quality bar, but it’ll be american made by a local american.
I found a 6’ x 6” bar of 4140 for $400 and i figure after machining the chain groove and the end for a replaceable nose sprocket, id be in for a lil over $700. But i want 6.5’ bar, so im sure it’ll cost a lil bit more.

Old Greenhorn · « **Reply #20 on:** January 10, 2023, 09:07:16 PM »

Charles, with all due respect, I know you are a sharp guy with great skills and knowledge. How exactly do you expect this shop to make this bar? From a solid piece? Many, if not most bars are laminated. Making the bar from solid means the groove will have to be milled or ground in and that is a lot of material for a thin tool to remove. Before you even get the that point, the material will have to be taken down to a very specific, accurate, and flat thickness. Milling it is not really practical, but it can be done, Flatness is again and issue with that, so probably the best way is grinding , most likely Blanchard grinding, or double disc grinding would be even better and that would be a huge machine for the bar you want. Heat treating and keeping that bar flat will also be a big challenge.
4140 would be a very good material for that, it is tough stuff and heat treats well, but any long thin stuff can be a real challenge to keep flat. Companies that make these bars have special machines to make it go easier, but those machines are not real common in most machine shops.
I'll be most interested to hear what your machine shop comes back with. I have no idea what their resources are, but if they could come in at $7-800. I would think that was a pretty good deal. Frankly I would expect twice that price or more, unless they have made bars before and have it figured out. Perhaps that is the case here?
Best of luck. I am still shaking my head over a 2 year delivery time for a bar and can't figure that out at all, even in these crazy times.
Best of luck with this, I am more than interested to hear how it turns out.

charles mann · « **Reply #21 on:** January 10, 2023, 09:54:32 PM »

@Old Greenhorn
How do i plan on it? Thats up to the machine to figure out. Im a mechanic, not a machinist. As for laminated, i thought only the replaceable nose sprocket was laminate on bars not listed/advertised as a laminate.

If they are laminated, then how do the secure the multiple layers to each other? Granted iv got some 2 part adhesive that would def be up to the task of holding the 3 pieces together, even under the temps, stress and vibrations the bars would be under. If it can hold dissimilar metals and composites together on an acft and its rotor blades, picking up 50,000# gross, it can hold 3 different pieces of steel together.
But back to the bar. I was thinking a solid piece of steel. I have thought about thickness of base material, what it will do after heat treating (maybe use a thick hamone coating to bring only the edges only to treating temp to limit warpage and clamped in a straitening gig) and either have it milled and then ground to final thickness or ground only. After being finished to thickness, if its possible, machine the chain groove a few though over the drive link/tooth thickness. If machining after treatment, machine 3/4 of thickness before treatment and finish afterwards.
Could it cost 2-3x that of my ballpark cost, sure, but wont know till i ask. Plus i can have it in a week vs. a yr.

Iv still got the guys in aus to bring one back as a check bag, or check bar.

Old Greenhorn · « **Reply #22 on:** January 10, 2023, 10:13:06 PM »

Well, it's a challenge to make for sure. Ideally yes, you would want the outer rim of the bar to be hardened and keep the center area soft for toughness. But that is also a challenge. We made tons of tooling from 4140 and 4340 at my last jobs. Everything was machined before heat treat leaving .010-.015" in precision bores and other close fits, which were either hard turned or ground after H/T. We had a LOT of trouble with 4000 series steel that would get into the US market from offshore and the chemical mix in it was 'not quite right'. This would show up in heat treat results with hard spots, soft spots, and warping. It cost us thousands in junk parts.
One of the keys with your project is what stock thickness are you starting with? You need to remove the skin off that material and take equal material off both sides or it will warp before you get very far along.
As I said, as a one-off, it's a very tricky job. Let's see what your shop says, maybe they will nail it with no issues.

BTW, laminated bars are usually spot welded together as far as I know.

charles mann · « **Reply #23 on:** January 10, 2023, 10:47:36 PM »

If spot welded, that means my jonsered, country line, oregon and stihl bars could be solid. I see no signs of spot welding, but i’ll be stripping paint on all bars tomorrow to find out. If laminating is an option, then it might be more feasible than i think. Or it could be complete failure. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

barbender · « **Reply #24 on:** January 10, 2023, 11:07:19 PM »

Most pro bars, and any of them I'm aware of with a replaceable sprocket nose, are solid- not laminated. So for instance, an Oregon Pro-match or whatever they call their top shelf bar now, or a Stihl ES, are solid construction.

charles mann · « **Reply #25 on:** January 10, 2023, 11:46:46 PM »

Then i’m gonna say at the very least, my oregon and stihl could be solid.

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2023, 12:51:56 AM »

Since 1955

Hand made and lifetime warranty!

Mooseherder · « **Reply #27 on:** January 11, 2023, 07:22:54 AM »

The Cannon CEO showing their process.

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #28 on:** January 11, 2023, 07:42:57 AM »

Pretty interesting and labor intensive. Well I pulled the trigger and have one coming.
A 28” Duralite

https://www.cannonbar.com/cannon-duralite-superbar/

Skeans1 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 11, 2023, 08:48:37 AM »

Cannon makes great bars especially in the longer length 42” plus but is it worth 2x the price? I have a 28” Stihl light weight bar and was able to handle the 28 cannon light weight they felt about the same but price was a huge factor as well as getting blinded.

That’s a 60 superbar or fat belly bar that’s where the money is worth it even on a 42 they have a belly. That said I have a cannon 32 super yes the rails are hard but no harder then an older Windsor bar they both are hard enough a file just skates right across.

barbender · « **Reply #30 on:** January 11, 2023, 11:57:37 AM »

I miss the Windsor bars.

moodnacreek · « **Reply #31 on:** January 11, 2023, 12:49:46 PM »

Quote from: barbender on January 11, 2023, 11:57:37 AM

I miss the Windsor bars.

The bar that came on the processor was a Windsor. People came to see it work and Herb would pull the wrong lever like we all do on a new [to us] machine and bend the bar. I don't remember how many times that bar went to the anvil. It lasted for several seasons. Next came GB bars, like the Sthill bars of that era; worthless. Soft bars wear right out and hard bars chip the rails. They have to be right to last.

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #32 on:** January 11, 2023, 02:40:05 PM »

The 28” Duralite bar was 262 and I couldn’t find a Stihl 28” and the ones on EBay are selling for 185

Greenhighlander · « **Reply #33 on:** January 11, 2023, 02:51:09 PM »

I just want to add that I have yet to even think of dressing the bar and it is actually made in Canada. I am not a man of money but I will always pay more for quality , especially if it is actually made in my country.
With a lot of things in life you get what you pay for , and canon bars are one of those things.

barbender · « **Reply #34 on:** January 11, 2023, 04:22:35 PM »

My username came from an incident I had with a shiny new 24" Windsor bar I had mail ordered from Bailey's because the longest I could find locally was a 20". It involved a hung tree and power equipment😁

Then it was off to the vise, I got it beat back straight and it was none the worse for wear other than some hammer marks. Now, last spring I had a saw fall out of the mount in the back of my skid steer and I ran it over🤦‍♂️ Yep, it was wearing that same 24" Windsor. It has a nice long "smile" curve to it, I intend to bring it back to life again when I get time😊

moodnacreek · « **Reply #35 on:** January 11, 2023, 06:34:55 PM »

Quote from: barbender on January 11, 2023, 04:22:35 PM

My username came from an incident I had with a shiny new 24" Windsor bar I had mail ordered from Bailey's because the longest I could find locally was a 20". It involved a hung tree and power equipment😁

Then it was off to the vise, I got it beat back straight and it was none the worse for wear other than some hammer marks. Now, last spring I had a saw fall out of the mount in the back of my skid steer and I ran it over🤦‍♂️ Yep, it was wearing that same 24" Windsor. It has a nice long "smile" curve to it, I intend to bring it back to life again when I get time😊

I always thought you might of worked in a steel shop until lunch time when i read your post and thought maybe it was a chainsaw incident, funny you mention it.

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #36 on:** January 11, 2023, 07:00:11 PM »

Quote from: Greenhighlander on January 11, 2023, 02:51:09 PM

I just want to add that I have yet to even think of dressing the bar and it is actually made in Canada. I am not a man of money but I will always pay more for quality , especially if it is actually made in my country.
With a lot of things in life you get what you pay for , and canon bars are one of those things.

You got that right!! Skeans1 nice picture! I agree the bigger bars Cannon has there is incredible separation from anybody else

barbender · « **Reply #37 on:** January 11, 2023, 07:27:37 PM »

Moodna, even if that one incident didn't earn me the name Barbender, a few years back I spent a winter in a Ponsse processor. I thought I was doing pretty good, never bent a bar. Then I got moved to a sale with clump hardwoods and the education began😂 I had the back of my pickup full of dead soldiers😊

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #38 on:** January 13, 2023, 05:52:29 PM »

In my conversation with Bill the owner of Cannon he pointed out the main difference between the Superbar and the Duralite is if you did something crazy and really bent the bar pretty bad that the regular one you could straighten out but probably not the Duralite

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #39 on:** January 14, 2023, 07:42:26 PM »

Looking forward to putting this Duralite on the 500

DHansen · « **Reply #40 on:** January 14, 2023, 07:55:04 PM »

Very nice! Looks great. Best of all, hand made in Canada.

Seachaser · « **Reply #41 on:** February 01, 2023, 05:45:51 AM »

How long?

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #42 on:** February 01, 2023, 07:48:50 AM »

28”

Greenhighlander · « **Reply #43 on:** February 01, 2023, 03:59:59 PM »

Quote from: Walnut Beast on February 01, 2023, 07:48:50 AM

28”

Nice . Mine is just a 24" normal super bar.
Please keep us updated on how it works for ya. As I have said , I could not be happier with mine.

newoodguy78 · « **Reply #44 on:** February 02, 2023, 08:53:52 AM »

Has anyone used the cannon carving bars? Looking for some real world experience. I’ve got a couple projects coming up that a carving bar will be very helpful on my little 346.
Looked at Baileys selection and it seemed to be pretty good. Not afraid to spend the money if they’ll last.

Greenhighlander · « **Reply #45 on:** February 02, 2023, 05:29:56 PM »

Quote from: newoodguy78 on February 02, 2023, 08:53:52 AM

Has anyone used the cannon carving bars? Looking for some real world experience. I’ve got a couple projects coming up that a carving bar will be very helpful on my little 346.
Looked at Baileys selection and it seemed to be pretty good. Not afraid to spend the money if they’ll last.

If their carving bars are anything like their regular bars , them lasting isn't even a question. I am currently on my 4th ripping chain and haven't even thought of dressing the bar yet. She is as solid as it gets.

newoodguy78 · « **Reply #46 on:** February 02, 2023, 10:14:57 PM »

Good to know. Thank you

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #47 on:** February 03, 2023, 05:23:59 AM »

Don’t hesitate to give Bill a call at company headquarters. He would be very helpful with any questions and what bar would be the best fit for you

customsawyer · « **Reply #48 on:** February 03, 2023, 05:38:45 AM »

I wonder if they would make one for my Lucas dedicated slabber.

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #49 on:** February 08, 2023, 03:16:46 AM »

I sent a email to Bill about the slabber bar and carving bar for you guys. I’ll let you know when I hear back.

Walnut Beast · « **Reply #50 on:** February 14, 2023, 03:17:02 PM »

Ok guys Bill got back in touch with me so here is the information for you guys.

Hi Mark,

Yes, we make bars for Lucas dedicated slabbing saws.
There are a couple of different sizes and mounting patterns but they can be ordered from Bailey's https://www.baileysonline.com/cannon-87-replaceable-sprocket-nose-bar-for-lucas-mills.html

Most small saws use our C1 mount and the most popular carving bar is part number CCD-C1-12-50 here is some info about how to choose a carving bar https://www.cannonbar.com/how-to-choose-a-cannon-carving-bar/
Carving bars can also be ordered from Bailey’s https://www.baileysonline.com/cannon-carver-12-chainsaw-carving-bar-dime-tip-ccd-c1-12-50.html

Have a happy day!

Yours truly,

Bill Challenger
President
Cannon Bar Works Ltd.

newoodguy78 · « **Reply #51 on:** February 18, 2023, 09:24:57 PM »

Just saw this thank you.

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Author Topic: Cannon Bars (Read 3021 times)

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