The Forestry Forum

Anyone around here like to build windmills, solar power, hydro power, alternative fuels, burn waste vegetanble oil, ect..ect..  ???

I am experimenting with a burner unit that will burn waste fryer grease (veggie oil). I have in the past help install a factory built boiler that will do just this, and has been burning it for about 2 years now. We found alot of faults with the machine but in turn we have made the system better. It heats two - 100' x 30' buildings and a 4 bedroom farmhouse, plus all the hot water.

I also want to build a windmill, from scratch..

Handy link to some homebuilt projects..

www.otherpower.com

I have been actively researching brewing WVO to make bio-d to do just what you have done.  Did you purchase a dual fuel boiler or convert an existing one?  I just priced a dual fuel replacement for my Central Boiler and about had a coronary when I saw the price  :o
I have not set up my appleseed style still because it is too cold to process.  Come spring I hope to be up and running.
I sure could use some advice and I would appreciate it if you would provide some detail of what you had to do to get the boiler to burn bio-d.
Some Qs:
Is the boiler dual fuel (wood or oil, wood and oil) or just set up for oil?
How many gallons of bio-d is needed for a heating season?
What do you do to keep the gel point low?

Built a Moonshine still... Ahemmmm I mean alternative fuel distillery once. 8) ;D

Yeah, I've dabbled with alternative energy.  I tried walking once instead of driving.  Let me tell you, its not what it's cracked up to be!

One of the niftiest alternate ideas I ever saw was a methane generator. It was a big tank with the bottom cut off that slid over a slightly smaller tank. There was a seal around smaller tank.

Waste, kitchen scraps, animal scat etc was thrown in there. As the methane was produced the big tank would raise. The gas was used to provide for cooking fires.

Use of alternate energy..................  H**L YEAH. :D 

Next spring we are converting our power system over to Solar.  We have our proposal written up for the bank.  I do not see any reason as to why they would not fund our project.  We are willing to pay a loan payment equall to what we pay for power at this point in time.  We would like to set up with enough power to supply our house, garage, kiln (which isn't built yet), and saw shed.  We already have our own well, and are heating/cooking with wood.  All that leaves us for utility bills is our telephone, which would greatly cut our expenses. :o :o

Other than my wood insert no. I watched a video on bio deisel and couldn't justify the cost, labor, time to make it. I still hope that someday fuel cells will become a reality. I'd love to get one of them and sell what I don't use back to the power company  8). But I don't think that'll happen anytime soon. I also thought about solar since my house faces north/south that may be a possiblity some day.

I'd like to get my hands on one of those 50 hp sterling engines. I saw a few on the discovery channel rigged up to burn sawdust and pushing an electric generator, If I remember correctly they where around 80 percent efficient and very reliable. Mostly used in 3rd world countries and cost prohibited in the USA

I just heard on the radio on Sunday about some "vegetable oil wars" in Portland, OR.  There are guys converting their diesel cars over to vegetable oil, and so all the restaurants are being approached by these guys who filter the old stuff out and sell it to these guys. Quite a little war brewing over there. Apparently, Diesel designed his original engines to run on peanut oil, which I didn't know until I heard that.  Apparently there are about 3 billion gallons of veggie old used in restaurants across the country.  That would run a lot of diesel engines!  Just wonder if your exhaust smells like french fries...   ;)

I've read you can convert oil furnaces to run on Waste Vegetable Oil...is this easily done?

I converted a pot type oil furnance to burn waste motor oil to heat a greenhouse once.  The problem I had was trying to find used motor oil to burn with regularity after I burned up the waste oil I had stored on the farm.  I did not realize that ten years ago that there were that many waste oil burners out here until I tried to locate the waste oil.

Farmerdoug

The boiler we installed burnt STRAIGHT used vegetable oil. We did not convert it to biodiesel. This is a pic of the burner unit.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10605/_burner_pump1.jpg)

The unit on the left is the oil pump. In the housing is a D.C. motor that has a potentiometer switch on it so you can control the oil flow to the burner. The oil pump itself is not any different than a regular oil furnace oil pump. On the end of the burner unit (right) is the air compressor. It also has a valve that can be adjusted to regulate the airflow into the burner nozzle. The main housing and blower fan are te same as a regular furnace. The secret is the oil/air heating block inside the barrel of the blower assembly. There is a alumium block about 10 inches long, with passageways drilled in it so the oil will go the length of the block twice before it reaches the nozzle. The air does the same. The block has a 400 watt element in it that starts before the furnace starts to preheat the oil before ignition. The nozzle mixes the oil and air and is fired with the electrodes the same as a regular furnace.

We let the oil sit in a hot room that is about 120 degrees for a week or so. The crap and crud in the oil will settle to the bottom of the barrel. We pump off the good clean oil and it goes through a 10 micron filter before it goes in the storage tank. There are hot water heat elements under the tanks to keep them warm. We found that we had to keep the copper lines and the final filter, the pump unit and the line going to the burner all warm to keep it from congealing on the cooler surfaces of the filter casings.

The guages only lasted about a month, so we replaced them with liquid filled ones, they are much more accurate and dont "bounce" like the other cheap ones did. There is a small plastic line that comes from the compressor that goes into the burner, that we had to replace with copper because the compressor generated alot of heat and melted it.

THere are other things that we did to it to make it work better but will be continued later, got to go get the wife!

This is the site that supplies this burner.. www.econoheat.com

I made a watermill 11 or 12 years ago. A big wheel 8 feet in diameter connected to a car alternator, charging 12 volts batteries. An inverter was plugged to the batteries and produced 110 volt. It worked well until it began to be affected by moisture. But 3 years ago I had to replace that watermill with a little home made turbine with a home made Pelton wheel, just 6 inches in diameter. With help of few friends, I had to pull up in the mountain 1800 feet of carlon pipe, up to a little lake, at 225 feet of denivellation. Now, it is working very well and I produce around 300 watts/h, 24 hours a day. I use it at my remote camp. You can look at a QuickTime film I made at the time I installed my watermill.
http://www.tuxedoproductions.com/page4.html (wait for the film to dowload entirely before trying to play it)

The mill is now in a covered place that i built over the stream, and plugged to 8 batteries with a 2000 watts capacity each.
Toxedo

Energy is so cheap here that the return on investment would be a long time for almost anything - except perhaps using wood scrap to run kilns. Costa Rica sells hydroelectric to other countries it has so much. Lots of rain, lots of mountains makes for lots of power.

I guess I do use alternative energy in one way - it is called a horse.  ;D

WOW toxedo nice video clip... 8) 8) 8) 8)

I can't read French to pretty good but you are WAAAY up north... you gotta be real close to the N. Pole uh??

crtreedude he's the one to talk to about helicopters   ;D  that's got to be the best way to see the sites as toxedo does...



oh ya welcome toxedo

 :D :D :D Not really near the North Pole

It is 1 and a half hour flying time, north of Montreal, Quebec. Cannot go with a vehicule on wheel 'cause there is no road. But it would take about 9 or 10 hours on the existing roads to get few miles from my cabin.
Thanks for the comments
Toxedo

I wanted to add few pics of what I had try to explain with words. Pic worth a thousand words no ?
Remember, everything there came by floatplane or helicopter, except the logs and boards. No ground road there.

That is the first watermill I built 11-12 years ago. It is oak and plywood. I made it in my shop, then unmounted it to put it the floatplane I had at that time. Then reassembled it on place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Roue-a-aube.jpg)

And there is the second one, 3 years ago
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/moulin-a-sec.jpg)

Under it you find a little wheel
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Pelton-4-.jpg)

And the nozzle that bring water with pressure (68 PSI)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Gicleur-nozle%7E0.jpg)

We had to bring a very long pipe (carlon, 1800 feet) This pic shows how we bring that to the remote cabin. We had to tie most of it on the floats of the Beaver because it was to big to go inside.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Tuyau-Cargair-3-1.jpg)

In flight.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/beaver-tuyau-1.jpg)

I was not far in my helicopter
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/tableau-de-bord-2R44-1.jpg)


We pull the 1800 hundred feet by length of 450 feet to a little lake at a level of 225 feet higher

An there is the watermill at work
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Moulin-4-at-work%7E0.jpg)
later I built this house for the mill
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Mill-house-1.jpg)
Here it is inside over the stream
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Mill-in-his-house.jpg)

This pic shows the batteries where i stock the energy
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Batteries.jpg)

Here the DC is transformed to AC and and from there it goes to the camp.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Inverter-coffre.jpg)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Castor-camp.jpg)

We even can watch TV. The antenna is at top of a tree.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Camp-TV.jpg)

In the living room
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Salon-castor.jpg)

And the kitchen
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/camp-cuisine.jpg)

The thing i like to think is that it is a little stream that roast my toasts and bring me TV an everything else.
Hope I did not bother you with my little story
Regards
Toxedo

I have two uncles that run a garage in a small town near me, they store all their used oil in a tank uphill from the garage.  They ran a 1/2 inch steel line down hill to their wood stove.  they then ran a small pipe into the old cast iron stove  they controll the flow with a water valve, just a drip on the burning wood produces a lot of heat and gets rid of the used oil.
     Don't know what the EPA would say, but it works for them.
Skytramp;

Toxedo, that is waaaay cool.  (très fantastique!)  :o

I think micro-hydro is definatly the way to go if you've got the water to do it.   If you don't mind my asking, how did you make the 'paddles' like the one you're holding in your fingers?  Also, at how many RPMs does it run and how is it regulated?

Along the same lines, but I'm not sure if would be considered alternative energy, is the ram pump.  It's low tech (only two moving parts) and pumps water from point A to point B using gravity and hydraulic pressure.

I hope to do both someday.

You didn't have a project on your hands Toxedo, you had a adventure building that. Planes, helicopters, piping and machining, wow that is quite the story. Thanks for sharing.

that is wonderful - I have to admit my dream has always been having a cabin in the woods. Granted, I can't complain - we have a square kilometer of plantation and rainforest now - but NO CABIN!

Once Harold gets here - it is on the list. 

That's really great, Toxedo  8)

I'm going to build something like that. ;D

That is really cool.  8)  I especially like that Cabin. Good job all the way around.  Thanks for showing all the photos.

  We NEVER get tired of photos and stories around here, true or otherwise. ;D :D

  Bookmark this page, Fred ??  ::) ;D ;D

Danny, thanks for the write-up and picks.  I look forward to hearing more about the set up.  Straight WVO sounds good to me.  That would mean I would only need to brew enough bio-d for my equipment.

Tux, great story and pics.  Thanks a lot. :)

Quote from: srjones on December 15, 2005, 02:36:37 AM
Toxedo, that is waaaay cool.  (très fantastique!)  :o

I think micro-hydro is definatly the way to go if you've got the water to do it.   If you don't mind my asking, how did you make the 'paddles' like the one you're holding in your fingers?  Also, at how many RPMs does it run and how is it regulated?

Along the same lines, but I'm not sure if would be considered alternative energy, is the ram pump.  It's low tech (only two moving parts) and pumps water from point A to point B using gravity and hydraulic pressure.

I hope to do both someday.

Thanks to you and all the members
All explain How I made the paddles that I call spoons:
First a friend of mine who is a my blacksmith teacher, made a die to form a half sphere.
Then I put that on my press and made a lot of them
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Pelton-spoon-form-1.jpg)

After that I used an other tool on the press to form ... I dont know how to call it... but it ressemble to a pair of bumps  ;)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Pelton-spoon-form-2.jpg)


Third thing to do, was to fill the back of the spoon with weld, and carve one end in a "W" form. I also had to sharpen the interior fishbone to make it very sharp so the water jet would be cut in two when hitting the middle of the spoon. That action is made for every single 24 spoon. Time consuming since it is a carving job. It is made with different sets of files and small grinding wheels.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Pelton-spoon-grinded.jpg)

I welded all the spoon on a 5 inches cicle (made of an old saw) divided in 24
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Pelton-wheel--weld.jpg)

After that I put the wheel on the iron mill, and grinded it while it was turning. (sorry, no picture of that part of the job) I did that to equilibrate everything and minimize vibrations. You see, that wheel can turn very fast with the water pressure, up to 3500 t/m average with a nozzle 3/8 inch wide.

I did not invent that kind of wheel as you know. It is a "Pelton" wheel. An old concept and design. It is supposed to be the more efficient profile for that kind of watermill. I just looked at photos on the net, and tried to make the same. I could have buy the wheel for 5 or 6 hundred dollars, but Naaaa ! I like to do the things myself.

Next question ?  ???

Ho yes, somebody was asking how it is regulated. Well, the pressure is constant, and the nozzle is always the same giving a constant dynamic pressure. (68 PSI for now) That can be altered by moisture and algues forming inside the pipe, but i manage to clean it a couple time during each summer.
Toxedo
One more pic
At the top, an intake (a plastic barrel with hundreds of small holes) is intalled to prevent any strange big thing to enter and clog the pipe. That pipe took 3 days to get up to the small lake. But at the end, it was there
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Pelton-%28tuyau%29.jpg)

I saw this Pelton Wheel in Lead, SD. Thought the group might like to see it as well.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12911/Pelton-Wheel.jpg)

The diameter was about 60 inches. It was used to generate electricity for a gold mine in the early 1900s.

Stew

It is a really nice one. They can be very big. I saw a photography of one 35 feet in diameter !
Tox

That is really  8) 8)  Talk about remote  :o :)

crtree:

Ever think of building yourself a dome or Pod?  Extremely strong structurally and very easy to heat/cool (just be sure to build those vents big and high!)

I was building domes in west-central Michigan back in the mid-'70s and hope to let my youngest four help with another one this coming Spring.  I learned so much from those first few.

If you can ever find it, look for the old (from the mid-'70s) text called "Shelter".  Some of the most beautiful photos of what is called a "Pod" which is finished on the exterior with rustic shaking are displayed in it.  Prettiest wooden housing unit I've ever seen. 

Both are low-cost and relatively easy from the owner-built approach.  We had an octagonal window at our breakfast nook in the first one, with huge triangular skylights all over the place.  Cost us less than $2,000 back then, complete.  I can just imagine how nice either of them (dome or Pod) would look in that setting!

Best with whichever choice you make!

Tuxedo, that's a nice looking hydro setup you've built.  We've been trying to come up with some sort of hydro power for our camp, but the river we're on just doesn't have enough flow except during flood stage.  I really enjoyed the pics.  Keep'em coming. :)

You could see it in action. Just go to my web site at http://www.tuxedoproductions.com/page4.html
It is a Quicktime film I did when I installed it.
Toxedo

A senior moment.... I had posted that link before
:( :-\  smiley_old_guy

Man there has been some great stuff on this thread. Thought I would throw my little dab of knowledge in. Onewithwood and anybody else interested, there was an advertisement in one of my recent Mother Earth News magazines for a biodiesel generator kit. If I remember correctly, it could make 40 gallons of BioD a day with approximately 1 hour of hands on time and for a cost of 60 to 70 cents a gallon. Fuel was supposed to be usable for trucks, tractors, heating oil, kerosene, etc. Hang On... Found the ad is from Biodiesel solutions www.makebiodiesel.com Phone 877-358-6400. I generally like a lot of stuff from Mother Earth - gardening, forestry, alt energy, etc. I do think sometimes the get a little bit further out there than I am comfortable with, but are a good resource and they have had LOTS of alternative energy articles in the last couple of years. Lots of Luck

PS great photos of the Beaver aircraft. Got to take in the Canadian Bushplane Museum in Sep 05. It was amazing to me to see all the history and technological changes over the years. One of the most amazing facts I remember was that of the 1600 or so beavers made, over 1200 of them are still in service somewhere in the world. Was well worth the trip to The Soo to take it in.

Quote from: Rockn H on December 16, 2005, 01:36:56 PM
Tuxedo, that's a nice looking hydro setup you've built.  We've been trying to come up with some sort of hydro power for our camp, but the river we're on just doesn't have enough flow except during flood stage.  I really enjoyed the pics.  Keep'em coming. :)

Do you have a significant elevation ? Or an important current on the river ? Some systems I saw are kind of floating devices with a propeller like the old steam boats, (you know these big wheels heach side, I dont know how to name it in english). It is a bigger installation tough.
Tox

Actually - teak thinnings under 8 inches are often nearly free - like 25 cents each. They make great fence post and log cabins! You aren't looking for anything particularly wide since insulation means nothing.

I like to keep it really simple - then I don't have to build it!

I want a cabin down by our river so bad I can taste it - right after the peacock bass pond!

My house in VT is 100% solar.  It's a 200 year old farm that never had power until a few years ago when I installed solar.  It cost about 1/2 what running in power lines was going to cost.  In situations like this, solar is a no brainer.  I hope to add a small hydro system in the next few years.  We have lots of water in the winter, but very little sun.  Then summer is just the opposite, so the two systems would complement each other nicely.

twistedtree,

I'd be very interested in more details about your solar system.  We just finished a passive solar home and would like to consider active solar if we could find a system that is cost effective.  The down side is that we have electricity at the site already, but we would be willing to look at other alternatives.

So far it looks like the cost of electricity each month will only be about $30, but that is only after 1 month of living there. 

nice setup there tux.     how do ya like yer r44?  nice birds,  friend of ours just picked on up this summer, dang nice for a piston powered chopper...   my old man's got a rotorway exec, with 500 hours on it now  8)

Thanks theonlybull
I like the R44 Astro a lot. I could not find best for the money. I had it for more than 6 years. Just sold it tough. But I bought a new one, a R44 Raven I, and I'll pick it up at Torence in the middle of march.
I love it so much, I had it in my living room with my woodmill
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/Salon_helico_moulin-1.jpg)
Just kidding. It is the living room of my little shop in my hangar. :D 8)
Tox

Very nice system toxedo. 8) 8) 

I have been thinking more about the solar system that we are going to be putting in in the spring.  I've been thinking that since we have so much wind (about 6 out of 7 days) that I should put up atleast 1 wind turbine that shouldn't be too hard to build.

Do you have any more pics and could you describe in some detail on your wood heater that is shown in your pics.  Loookssss interesting........  :o :o ;D

Quote from: Coon on December 18, 2005, 12:10:17 PM
Very nice system toxedo. 8) 8) 

I have been thinking more about the solar system that we are going to be putting in in the spring.  I've been thinking that since we have so much wind (about 6 out of 7 days) that I should put up atleast 1 wind turbine that shouldn't be too hard to build.

Do you have any more pics and could you describe in some detail on your wood heater that is shown in your pics.  Loookssss interesting........  :o :o ;D

Thanks coon
If wind is really not a problem, a wind turbine is for sure the solution. The solar is expensive, and to pull the best of it, you need to have a system that automatically orient the panels where the sun is at his best. That system is more expensive than the panels  :o :(
What pic of a wood heater are you talking about ?
Tox

Here is a couple links to some good general information on homemade windmills.

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_103233/article.html

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/default.asp

Wow Toxedo, what a great set up thanks for all the pics, you've done a terrific job with your camp.l

Thank you Ernie
Tox  smiley_wavy

Sorry Toxedo.  I forgot to put which one because I didn't realize that you had so many until I just reread the whole post.

And thank Donny S.  I will check out those two links soon.  One can never have too much info on these different alternative energy practises.

Sorry Toxedo.  I forgot to put which one because I didn't realize that you had so many until I just reread the whole post.  The one that I was interested in was the one in the kitchen pic.

And thank Donny S.  I will check out those two links soon.  One can never have too much info on these different alternative energy practises.

I think this will be my winter's project  I think...

http://www.otherpower.com/17page1.html

This would be a great project. Would anyone here happen to know where I could get some of those rare earth magnets? I know computer hard drives have them but they are not a good shape, they are ususally kinda C shaped in a HDD.

QuoteWould anyone here happen to know where I could get some of those rare earth magnets?

Ebay has a bunch of them for sale.   :)

QuoteWould anyone here happen to know where I could get some of those rare earth magnets?

You can buy practically anything on the intenet  :D

http://www.wondermagnets.com/cgi-bin/edatcat/WMSstore.pl

Magnets 'R' Us ?

Ian

Quote from: Coon on December 18, 2005, 08:31:03 PM
Sorry Toxedo.  I forgot to put which one because I didn't realize that you had so many until I just reread the whole post.  The one that I was interested in was the one in the kitchen pic.

And thank Donny S.  I will check out those two links soon.  One can never have too much info on these different alternative energy practises.

OK, That stove is a regular wood stove, except it is made of tubes welded together. It form a wall in winch the air is warmed. If you put a fan at the bottom, the air ejected will be very hot. But, is it better than a regular low combustion ? I dont know. I did not make that stove, a friend gave it to me 20 years ago. I dont think you can find it any more, it is from the seventies period, you know that period we had long hairs, and some people smoked funny tobacco ? :D
Tox

Toxedo

Neat stuff - you did a great job !

Bill

Quote from: Bill on December 19, 2005, 09:20:27 PM
Toxedo

Neat stuff - you did a great job !

Bill

Thanks Bill
Tox

Quote from: toxedo_2000 on December 19, 2005, 09:01:59 PM
OK, That stove is a regular wood stove, except it is made of tubes welded together. It form a wall in winch the air is warmed. If you put a fan at the bottom, the air ejected will be very hot. But, is it better than a regular low combustion ? I dont know. I did not make that stove, a friend gave it to me 20 years ago. I dont think you can find it any more, it is from the seventies period, you know that period we had long hairs, and some people smoked funny tobacco ? :D
Tox

Until the late 70's I was but a glimmer in my daddies eyes so to say :D :D

I would really like to see some more pics of that stove to get a better idea of how it was built.  That stove looks like it could be adapted in some sort of way in which you could force hot air into some kind of duct work just as a furnace does.  If one could put a heat sensor in it to cut in and out when the temperature is up.  The stove looks on the smaller side but if you could get something like that to work on that scale then I don't see any reason as to why you couldn't build a large one to heat the whole house with one unit.
??? ???

Coon
I remember there were 3 sizes for that stove. I have the smaller one. I'll try to find the book (where the hell I put it ?). I think it is at the cabin. Cannot go before spring, I sold my chopper ! :-\
Anyway, you're right about the heat sensor. I'll try to find other pics where you could have a better look at it.
Tox

That would be great Tox.  I am always trying to build things better than the production lines built them, or atleast that's what I think. ;D  That stove has given me an idear........    I will have to contemplate on it for a while before I mention it.  I have to see for myself if it would work (in my mindset) and then I will ask forum members for their thoughts. ??? ??? :P

Quote from: wesdor on December 17, 2005, 08:38:18 PM
twistedtree,

I'd be very interested in more details about your solar system.  We just finished a passive solar home and would like to consider active solar if we could find a system that is cost effective.  The down side is that we have electricity at the site already, but we would be willing to look at other alternatives.

So far it looks like the cost of electricity each month will only be about $30, but that is only after 1 month of living there. 

My system is relatively small with about 700W of panels.  They charge the batteries (24V, 800AH) using an Outback Charge controller.  AC is provided using a Trace 4KW sinewave inverter.  I also have an Onan 4KW RV generator mounted in a shed for backup.  The Trave Inverter controls it automatically when there is a heavy load on the system, or the batteries get too low.

When we are at the house, with the TV going, laundry running, etc. I need to run the generator periodically.  I really need more panels to fully cover the load.  But since we use the place mostly on the weekends the system has plenty of time to recover during the week.

I also designed everything for low power consumption.  For example, the heat is circulating hot water.  The curculators don't draw much power compared to forced hot air blowers.  Electric heat is completely out, of course.  My fridge is propane, not electric, since that's another large load in a normal house.  All the lights are compact floresent.

All in all it works very well for our needs, but when we move there full time we will need to add more panels and add the micro hydro for winter coverage.   At the same time, we have all the conveniences including washer/dryer (propane dryer), microwave, TV/DVD/VCR, radios, dishwasher, etc.  At the risk of offending, it completely passes the "wife test" - she can use the place without having to tinker or fuss with the system - it's all automatic and transparent.

Someone mentioned solar trackers.  These devices change the tilt and orientation of the solar panels so the face the sun as it tracks across the sky.  As a general rule of thumb, they only pay for themselves when you are in a high-sun location like Arizona or New Mexico.  In thise areas there is enough gain to make the cost of the devices worth while.  In other climated, like Vermont where I am, there is not much gain, and money is better spent on more panels.

If you have grid power, you can install what's called a grid-tied system.  It's just panels and an inverter that ties into the commmercial power.  Surplus power goes back into the grid and, depending on your state regulations, earns you credit on your electric bill.  If you need more power than the solar generates, like at night, you draw from the grid.  Batteries are not required and eliminate a significant chunk of cost, and the primary source of maintenance in an off-grid system like mine.  No batteries means no backup power when the grid fails, but for many people that's a reasonable tradeoff given the cost savings.  Only you can decide if you want to generate your own power, provide backup power, or both.  Once you've decided, you can design a system accordingly.

Check out www.homepower.com.  It's  great magazine dedicated to the subject.  Mother Earth news is a good way to draw interest in the subject, but their articles tend to be introductory-only, and too superficial to guide you in actually doing anything.

Coon,
There are the pics
You can have a better look at it
Tox
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/H-stove.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/H-Stove-1.jpg)

As I was saying last night that I have an idear.....  Why couldn't one build a simple wood burning unit that has smoke baffles in the firebox just before it exits through the chimney.  (This particular concept is done by most manufacturers) The chimney is therefore built in such a way that it is coiled around and around leaving say either a 6" or 8" tunnel.  Inside this tunnel you install a fan on a heat sensor that cuts in and out as the smoke warms the pipe.??  Does this seem like a realistic concept?  There should be little to no smoke coming out of the chimney  as much of the remaining heat from within the smoke is used up.  Has anyone tried this concept? Does anyone have such a system they could show??

If you cool the smoke down that much, wouldn't you have trouble with cresote?

I dont know why I havent clicked on this thread before..... WOW !

Cool projects, cool pictures, and bucket loads of good info !

Thanks Guys!

Toxedo, That is a neat stove you have there. I wonder if a guy could run water through those pipes to make a hot  water  type furnace ? Just an idea .

Quote from: Tom_Averwater on December 21, 2005, 11:18:12 AM
Toxedo, That is a neat stove you have there. I wonder if a guy could run water through those pipes to make a hot  water  type furnace ? Just an idea .

It is a good idea. But the pipes have a too big diameter, in my opinion (2 1/2 inches). If somebody wants to built one, it woud be better to use a smaller pipe interlacing the bigger one. Or maybe he could roll a small (3/4 or 1 inch) pipe like a long coil spring. He would run water from one end to the other, then to a tank. The fire inside the stove formed by the rolled pipe would be very efficient.
Yeah ! Good idea.
Tox smiley_dark_bulb smiley_bouncing_pinky

I hope you folks are following the "Global Warming" thread along with this one.  It's a good'un too, and is exploring more alternatives. ;)

Cool (or warm?) place you have there, Tox.  I like that stove, too.  It reminds me of a rig they used to sell back in that same time period.  It was a grate for a fireplace that was made from tubing.  The tubes were bent into an arc with the ends sticking out into the room.  The lower end had a manifold on them with a small blower to push air through the tubes.  Looked like a fine idea, but probably didn't last all that long.

Quote from: DanG on December 21, 2005, 11:44:09 AM
.....  It reminds me of a rig they used to sell back in that same time period.  It was a grate for a fireplace that was made from tubing.  The tubes were bent into an arc with the ends sticking out into the room.  The lower end had a manifold on them with a small blower to push air through the tubes.  Looked like a fine idea, but probably didn't last all that long.

DanG right DanG.

The fire would burn through the tubing, and then the blower would blow hot coals and sparks into the room. They lasted longer if buried in the ashes, so the hot coals were not right against the tubing.

I don't know if cresote would be a problem because if you use good seasoned wood you don't get very much cresote build up in any other type of wood heater or stove.  I have never really had much of an experience with cresote building up too much in the past because I always ensure that I have plenty of seasoned wood on hand.  This is my first year burning dry wood that I have not seasoned myself so I guess that the question as to whether it would build up in that case is still at stake?  Does anyone have any better knowledge on this???? :)

Danny S

This is a link to a NZ company that makes generators out of the "Smart Drive" units from F&P Washing machines, Cheap and interesting.

http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/

Coon

The problem with heat reclaimers in flues is the water vapor from the combustion will condense as you lower the flue gas temperature. The resultant liquid is very acidic and will corrode just about anything except some types of stainless steels. It take some very careful design to avoid the corrosion problems. To a certain extent, most all burners today try to utilize as much heat in the flue gas as they can without having severe problems.

Hello,

Energy has been very much on my mind lately. I'm finding it very difficult to keep my house warm without constantly running my batteries down and running my propane sucking generator. I've got a good sized solar system but perhaps made a mistake in thinking the circulator on my outdoor boiler plus the 4 zone circs wouldn't be that much of a load. Consequently I don't run it constantly as they (CB) recommend I do. I've been waiting on a medium sized wind generator for about 3 months now. Every time the wind blows steady, which is often at my house, I tense up just a bit. Being off the grid doesn't make me more energy conscious, it makes me energy crazy!

I'm still swinging though- I've got an extra panel and two batteries from my cordwood place with a repaired inverter on the way. I'll plug the boiler into that when convenient and share the load a bit. The windmill, should it ever get here will help of course. I got a new fireplace called a Bellfire that I've got to wake up around 2 or 3  to stoke up and a nice big old Fisher down in the basement. Finally, I got a message today saying my insulated blinds are in. I've got big windows and lots of them on the south side of my house, great when the sun is out, terrible when it isn't. I'm looking for a miracle with these blinds.

Perhaps one day soon, I won't have to hear my wife say "Why is it so cold in here?"

Thanks for letting me vent!

I found lots of good information on windmills at this link..  http://www.scoraigwind.com/

Might be lots of information, but, it ain't all good. As for windpower, you MUST get the machine a minimum of 30' above all trees ,buildings, or, whatever else, within 100', or you get turbulent air.

  The Engineering Dept at the College in Fayetteville Arkansas, installed a wind machine on the roof of their building. It didn't work. We tried our DanGest to show 'em where they messed up, OR, to buy the unit, but, nOOooooooooooo.. Windpower doesn't work. They proved it.  >:( >:( >:(

  We installed over 25 units from 200 watt, to 4000 watt output. 4000 watt rig I built from scratch. We set up several Solar Panel units and Solar-Wind combos. Had batteries from the phone company that weighed over 400 pounds per cell and had 1465 amps at 2volts capacity. Also used forktruck batteries, the best option, as, you can't hardly damage them.

  If anyone is gonna setup an alternative energy operation, DO NOT skimp on cheap batteries. Don't care what anyone says, we tried 'em all, including them die hard jobs. Forktruck batteries is the way to go. Just need a box to hold 'em, because of the ''milk jug'' type cell enclosure.

  Solar Panels don't need a ''Regulator'' unless you have a big bank or Panels. Just need a Diode to prevent backfeed during dark times.

Quote from: Fla._Deadheader on December 23, 2005, 09:43:27 AM

Might be lots of information, but, it ain't all good. As for windpower, you MUST get the machine a minimum of 30' above all trees ,buildings, or, whatever else, within 100', or you get turbulent air.

 

Well, I'll try with this to get above everything
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13107/GQBB-3.jpg)

It is my new chopper. I flew it back home from L.A. Then had it paint the exact same scheme as the previous one.
What a nice windmill. The electricity produced is not the cheapest though, I can tell you ! smiley_eek_dropjaw
Tox

That is a handsome machine, Tox ;D Is it larger than the other one ?

Maybe you can invent a windmill that you can store/transmit (!) energy to as you fly :D

I have a cabin in Northern Wisconsin that is off the grid. I have a 24vDC/120VAC  inverter with 8 deep cyle 6v batteries. It can supply all our lights and the well pump for the weekend. On Sunday morning we fire up a generator to charge them back up. This summer we will be adding a couple of solar panels to supplement the batteries and to charge them when we're gone. I love the system and best part is, no utility bills or power outages.

Quote from: sprucebunny on March 13, 2006, 04:37:25 PM
That is a handsome machine, Tox ;D Is it larger than the other one ?

Maybe you can invent a windmill that you can store/transmit (!) energy to as you fly :D

That kit is already there. They call it an alternator and a battery. ;D The only problem is to unwind a wire long enough to have the refrigerator working well  ::) Just kidding Sprucebunny...

But the machine is exactly the same as the previous one, even the color (a little lighter red maybe) with a hydraulic system for the collective and cyclic. Inside is the same grey, 7 holes panel instead of the 9 hole panel I had before.
Tox

   Benn nosing around a bit,getting tired of high price ,low reliability. I want something that I buy once! Currently looking at a windmill design from otherpower.com I think,and a Lister diesil ,or a clone to pull a genset. Once again,my wife says I crazy

Dail, did'ja check out the Bergey's Wind generators ??  Very simple design and we sold a bunch of 'em in Arkansas and Oklahoma.

  2 sealed bearings on the armature and bushings on the tail. No other moving parts.  8)

   Gotta link for'em DH ? I like to think I can build one like the guy on otherpower did. Would be cheaper ,and kinda neat too ,but a lot to be said for bolt'er up,an let'er go ;D

nice bird there tox,   after pickin that baby up,  alterntive energy probably sounds cheap.... 75L\hour makes them a lil' expensive to run,  but they sure are a nice workin machine.  lil' more room then my old man's rotor way exec though   :D  although,  his 500 hour maybe a lil' more affordable

 Here ya go, Dail

  Bergey (http://www.bergey.com/)

Quote from: theonlybull on March 15, 2006, 06:26:53 AM
nice bird there tox,   after pickin that baby up,  alterntive energy probably sounds cheap.... 75L\hour makes them a lil' expensive to run,....../

Well, you're right. That why I need alternative energy a lot. All that I can save on this side is spread on the other side. :-\ But who am I to complaint ? I am the luckyiest man of the world; I saw, and I flye !  smiley_angel02_wings
Tox

I everybody
Long time ago I came here. Well, I just want to tell you that I have installed a new device for hot water at my cabin. It is a propane system that warm water on demand only. I had to replace my hot water propane tank anyway, so I bought that thing. Working very well. And the water is very hot. It is made by Bosh.
I'll take picture next time.
Toxedo

It has been almost a year since anyone posted on this thread and I thought it was time to review it.

I am looking at the options for making my workshop a total alternative energy shop, and have been looking into PV panels and also a way to air condition my shop using geothermal and solar. I found  THIS SITE for free soalr air conditioning (http://www.mb-soft.com/solar/intake.html) and have been looking at it closely. As far as I can tell, I cant see where anybody has actually used this method of air conditioning, but that doesnt mean it doesnt work. I have been in communication with the authors of the site to get more detailed information.  I dont know of an inexpensive suplier of thin walled 4" PVC pipe or the fittings, but I am looking at government liquidations and other similar sites for it.

A sideline of this method is to use 1" polyethelene pipe, filled with water and circulated through a car radiator with a 12 volt fan attached. According to all of the data I can garner, the ground temperature ( 6 feet below ground level) in my location remains at ~70 degrees year round. Using this constant suply of 70 degree water should provide both heating and cooling. Of course the cooling is more important to me than the heating. Has anyone tried this method?

My next question is if anyone knows of a good source for low cost or used solar panels?

I had thought of a simular air flow system a few years ago, made some drawings and played with it for about a week. Then let it go over concerns about condensation insde the tubing under ground.
The closed loop water system is very simular to what a geothermal heat pump uses. You might get some more ideals from florida heat pump. If you have a deep pond, water is very efficent and cost effective because you dont need to bore wells are excavate for a couple of hundred ft of pipe. Just trench to the pond weight a couple of rolls of tubing cut the bands and sink them in the deepest part of the pond.
Im almost as bad as Ignastus j Reily on writing down ideals. Most I let go, some i keep and one paid a little. I have been thinking about a low volume gradient solar pond with a closed loop heat exchanger for a while now.
The ground dont rise much here and there aint a steady breeze so i havent looked at wind or hydro. But i did heat a 1200 ft green house one winter with 200 ft. of tubing a 12volt water pump 2 radiators 4 12volt fans and a 10x 40 compost bed. I wont never do it again turning that big a bed by hand sucks.

We had one client use the geothermal heatpump with lines buried around the place 6' deep feeding the heat pump constant temperature water year round. In AL the inlaws used the canal out back for the same purpose. Both systems worked well.

We had a big bust here this past week. Seems one of the local guys had a lab and was cooking up... biodiesel. He was selling his extra to friends. Some DMV employee with time on his hands initiated a 6 week undercover surveilance operation complete with video cameras and the whole deal.  They went out last week and busted the shocked and unknowing guy, investigation is continuing with possibly more charges against his co-conspirators to follow. The "cleanup" of the "hazerdous waste" ran over $5,000. They want their road tax  ::)

The system I am looking at doesnt use a heat pump at all, but rather runs the water through a radiator and then a fan is blown through the radiator to exchange the heat. It may need to run around the clock to work, but since it will be solar powered anyway, it doesnt make any difference ;)

A dehumidifier may need to be run in order to dehumidify the air in the house, but that is still cheaper than running a 4 ton A/C

Yes, i understand what you have in mind, I did something simular to heat a green house once.
I am not saying that you should use a heat pump. I am saying that geothermal heat pumps use a simular system to dump and collect heat. By researching them you may be able to find what materials to best use and how much of it you will need.

Going by requirements of geothermal installations we've done for schools 100 feet of well with pipe in it is required for each ton of cooling/heating. If you don't have enough well then the ground will equalize in temperature and it won't cool or heat well.

The newer systems we've done are water source geothermal, where two wells are dug. one is a supply for ground temp water and the other is the return. These seem to be the most energy efficient.

what did you use for the heat exchanger? and how far apart do you suggest the wells be in order to provide 4 tons of cooling?

I had really envisioned utting down a closed loop system because of the high mineral content of the ground water here. With a closed loo system, I have been looking at burying about 1000 ft of 1" polyethelene tubing, in a coil manner, over about  a 200 foot long ditch dug at least 6 feet down and then covered with the dirt. It should be able to treat the water in the loop much like you would treat swimming pool water to keep down mineralization in the heat exchanger. I could see the benefit of actually burying this deep enough so that the tubing would be sitting in ground water. That may be a little diffficult to do here because I live on a sand hill and the ground water is quite deep.

What I havent been able to find information on is what size heat exchanger I would need, and if one heat exchanger would be enough to suply 4 tons of cooling?

Ken,

The world's largest energy conference, World Energy Engineering Conference, is currently is secession at the DC Convention center and I have tickets to the expo floor.  I know from shows in the past, the Geoexchange people always have a large booth.  Will try too pick up some info for you.  In the mean time check out their site. http://www.geoexchange.org/

Also of note is that in the new energy bill you can receive a $300 tax credit for installing a geothermal system:  "Sec. 1333: Credit for certain non-business energy property
One of the highlights of the new bill addresses homeowners, who are granted up to $300 in tax credits for the cost of new Geoexchange systems. To be eligible, the standards that must be met are 14.1 EER & 3.3 COP for closed loop, 16.2 EER and 3.6 COP for open loop and 15 EER and 3.5 COP for DX. However, the system must include a desuperheater or integrated water heating to meet the credit's criteria."

I checked on states that have some type of rebate and Florida is one of them.  Gulf Power Company (GPC) offers a $250 per unit incentive for geothermal heat pumps installed in multi-family homes.  Note, it states "mult-family" homes.

Will PM you tomorrow night if I get anything good for you.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce!

I am particularly interested in systems that dont use a heat pump at all, but are straight geothermal with only a heat exchanger (radiator)

Getoverit,

I haven't read all of the comments in this thread, but in 1980 I looked at running lines to my pond some 100 yards from the house.  I was more interested in getting a better heat exchange for an air conditioner.  The thought was also since the pond had a temp of 61 degrees (from a flowing spring) I could possibly do a straight exchange like a radiator.  I grew up in the refrigeration business but it has been a long time.  I think that poly pipe is not going to give you very good conductance for heat exchange if you bury it. Also if you use radiators it is probably going to take so much fan h.p. (i.e lots of square ft in radiators) that you may not accomplish much. 

I may get some arguments here, but as best as I can remember one needs a 10 to 15 degree difference in discharge to return temperatures.  Check you 4 ton unit and see what you have now. I'll almost bet you see somehwere in this area.   

For some 30 years I have been kicking around a way to cool my house cheaper.  The old Alkla Gas units from Arkla Gas in Shreveport were a big hit around here when natural gas was cheaper.  They required more maintenence but many used them. My friend has his own small gas well and has had one for 20 years.  Parhaps you might want to look at something running on old motor oil, cooking oil, etc.  Who knows what one can do?


 

The guy that I bought my Central Boiler outdoor boiler claims to have all the necessary parts to cool his walk in cooler using boiler temp water.  If this can work why not whole house air conditioning?

Will

on many jobs we've done the wells are anywhere from 15' to 20' on center usually 100 to 300 feet deep.

We usually get a soil test and a test well done first to verify well spacing. Thats on the closed loop systems which are filled with a propolene glycol water mix. We have to use a heat pump to chill the water further so the cooling coil can remove some of the humidity.

Ken,

I'm forcing the time to set down and put down some of the geothermal info I found at the energy show.

First the show was a bust!  There was only one true geothermal outfit there and that was the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium. While talking with them I came away with the opinion that they think it's a bad idea to try and use a straight system without a heat pump – look at their name.  Soooo, after I got back to the house, god I hate DC traffic.  I called several mechanical and energy engineers I worked for and with over the last 13 years and they all said the same thing.  It will be real hard to get the energy concentration you need, for both cooling and heating.  Remember how the OLD heat pumps always felt like they were blowing cool/cold air during the heating cycle.  That's because you couldn't get the energy concentration you need without SOMETHING like a heat pump.  One of the big cooling points we talked about was that you would need to cool the air down to about 45° to get the dehumidification needed.  Without this you could feel clammy all the time.  As to running a DH system, with the new refrigerant compressors, I don't think you could run a DH system as cheaply as a geothermal system.  Desiccant systems usually require electric heaters and a small blower to dry the off side and refrigerant systems are usually air to air systems.  Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of doing it without a heat pump – less money to pay the @$%^&*s at the power company.  But I don't think you can easily get a good system. Oh, before I forget, one item that jumped into my head while writing this; the new energy policy act requires a "desuperheater" on the system to qualify for any tax credits.  You can only have them on refrigeration compressor systems.  I don't think it's a heat pump thing.  I think it's an energy thing.  They have really help raise the efficiency of compressor systems.

The next item we beat up, around and about, I actually have some experience on this, is the loops. 
1.   The best bar none are the drilled wells – can you said "expensive to put in."  You must drill the right depth hole and the right number with the correct spacing.  Back when I worked for an AC&R controls company, we were the general on a geothermal system for the crash and rescue building on the Quantico flight line.  We installed a 7 ton system that required 11 - 350 ft holes.  One cost not counted on, was the fact that the flight line was on fill and the holes keep collapsing as they pulled the bit.  So, we had to Bentonite (sp) the holes to keep them open until the loops could be installed.  Please remember this was 13 years ago and systems have gotten MUCH better and you may not as many holes for the same sized system.  Example; the lower elbows are much heavier built – don't use regular PVC fitting on the bottom connections.  They will blow out.
2.   If, no when I put a system in.  I will probably do like you and install a horizontal system with many loops.  For what I can gather the biggest thing on them is to make sure you use fine dirt and pack it well.  As the loops heat and cool, particularly during cooling, the loops will condense moisture around them and over time this could loosen the contact between the tubing and the dirt.  No contact, no energy transfer.

With a little bit of googling, I found a link to a company that sale to individuals – self installation kits. Check out Architectural Residential Technologies, Inc. (ART) http://www.arit.com.  Their design and spec catalog can be downloaded at http://www.arit.com/PDF/Design%20and%20Specifications%20Catalog%20for%20Terraloop.pdf. In their guide, they have illustrations for the 4 types of horizontal loops: pond loops, slinky loops, horizontal single or multi pipe loops and horizontal radiator loops.

Well that's all I can think of right now.  If I think of more, I get it to you.  Also, if you have any questions or comments, PLEASE let me know.  I may be in natural gas now, but I still have friends in the energy business – god would I love to get back to real energy projects.  Getting fat and old behind this disk.

Bruce

you can visit this pages

in brasil the most of  the  cereal driers use   firewood

there are a good press   to make "brikets " from saw dust

you can visit 

www.biomasa.com.br
and  www.hengenharia.com.br

this briquet is produced compacting   in an alternative press
the briquet is a long cilinder   
the saw dust must be dry   less than 8 percent
and it dont want any kind of glue

i saw this   with    rice husk too

the production is nearly  800 kilos by hour

Thanks for the GREAT info Bruce !

Here are some pics of the bio-diesel processor I constructed to make bio-diesel from wast donut oil.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10273/Bio%20d%20Processor.JPG)

left to right:
the waste oil drum(partially blocked by radial arm saw), carboy stack for adding methoxide, the appleseed processor, tank for letting mix settle separating the bio-d from glycerol, tank for washing suspended soap and residual methanol from bio-d, tank to drive off remaining water from bio-d.  The overhead PVC trunk line exhausts all the fumes to the outside.  Eventually I will incorporate a column to recover methanol.

view from the leftt
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10273/Bio%20d%20Processor%20l.JPG)

view from the right
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10273/Bio%20d%20Processor%20r.JPG)

My raw materials cost are roughly .80 a gallon for finished fuel.

OWW
That looks might impressive. Neat line-up of processes, and curious as to how many gallons you can process in a given time, say 24 hrs.

   8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

I can process 120 liters (approx 31.5 gal) per batch.  The initial processing takes about 2.5 hours.  Once fully mixed it is pumped to the settling tank where it sits for 24+hrs.  The bio-d is then pumped to the wash tank and the glycerol drained to be held for further processing (recovery of methanol and a potassium fertilyzer).  The batch undergoes a series of washes that combined take about two days.  After each wash the soapy water is drained off and put on the compost pile.  The last step is heating in the drying drum for at least 24 hrs.  I run two batches at a time - one being mixed and settled while the other one washes.  I can produce about 55 gal per week with this set up.  All the washes are activated utilizing timers so I only need to be present during mixing, pumping and draining.  All in all I devote about 6 hours per week to the process.
The first two batches took like forever :o :D

That looks very impressive Robert but I have one question what with all the projects you tackle....when do you sleep. ;)

Basicly you are paying yourself around $16.50 an hour to make the stuff rather then by it at the pump, right?

Ya gotta remember one thing. Reading some back posts, this can't be done cheaply.  ::) ::) :-* :D :D


  Just read a newbys question on a Bio Forum last night. Guy wanted to know how much Lye to put in the oil, to get it to burn in his truck.  :o :o :o :o :o

  There's a LITTLE more to it than that.  ::) ::) :D :D :D :D :D

  WAY to GO, Robert.  Don't have water heaters like that down here. Well, they are real expensive, when ya find one.  ::) ::) ::) ::)

FD,
The water heater is just a convenient vessel.  You could make the same thing out of a propane tank or any pressure vessel and a little welding.  It can even be made out of a 55 gallon steel drum, just be sure and incorporate a pressure release valve and a heating element you can turn off when adding the methoxide.
How difficult is it to come by the methanol and potassium hydroxide in CR?

   :D :D :D :D :D :D :D  Don't NEED it, OWW  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

  Just need a barrel and a centrifuge. It don't GET cold enuff to need the conversion, down here.  ;) ;) ;) :) :) :)

Link (http://www.farmshow.com/issues/30/05/300506.asp)

I saw this link today and thought of FDH.

Uhhhh, YUP  8)

  Problem is, the Goobermints have a "Voluntary" Road-use tax collection. There is not a GOOD way to tell who makes AND uses Bio fuel. They are seriously trying to shut down the industry, until BIG OIL gets it all worked out.

  Bio Diesel burns MUCH cleaner, produces LESS NOx, than previously reported, and has MUCH better lubricity qualities than Dino-diesel.

  Double use of the feedstock will definitely help farmers.

  Some folks wonder, why buy Bio when it's the same price as Dino ???  Some folks just don't get it .

IMHO -

Hate to be critical of big oil  but -

They're the last people to be allowed to the party.  We should be building two new industries : one for ethanol ( I'd hope started and run by farmers coops ) and the second for biodiesel ( maybe by farmers again but anyone but the big oil companies ).

And the reason being is that I think we need the competition to keep big oil honest and that'll only happen if the new industries can compete without big oil swallowing them. So the last piece would be to have govt step up and say iffen you sell fuel across state lines ( to get fedl jurisdiction ) then you need to have pumps also for biodiesel and ethanol or you can't sell anything which'll get it to the local gas station.

Ok that felt good - sorry to rant

I could put something on here, about Govt., BIG OIL, and Bio, that would curl yer Butt hairs.  >:( >:( >:(  I promised Tom I wouldn't do that  ::) ;D

Harold,
Is it feasible to ferment and distill the grains for ethanol after the oil is extracted?And will that in turn produce a good quality DDG for cattle?

2 different things, Paul. OIL is in the beans, or sunflowers, or canola  .  Ethanol is from converting starch, corn and wheat and sorghum is starch. You ferment to breakdown starch to sugars, then to alcohol. Anything that will ferment (fruit) is sugar.

  Big thing needed is Methanol, which is controlled by BIG OIL. Prices have doubled since Biodiesel took off.

  Ethanol can not readily be used to transesterify the oil. Straight Veggie oil is best, but, it gells in low temps. No Methanol needed in Straight Veggie Oil. Not here, though  8) 8) 8)

  NOW, anyone got a used engine oil centrifuge sittin around they don't need ??? They are used on BIG trucks, to constantly filter the engine oil, while driving.  8) ;D

If you have two fo those oil centrifuges, I'll take the second one.   :)

FD,

Do you know what trucks use the centrifuge filters?  There is a semi boneyard near me.  Maybe I can see if they have a couple and the price.

Farmerdoug

I just know there are for BIG trucks, probably over the road, semi's.

  Occasionally there is one surface for around $300.00. I would like to pay less INCLUDING shipping.  ;D :D :D

I will try to get over there in the next couple of weeks and see what I can find out.  Remind me in a couple of weeks if you have not heard from me about it.

Farmerdoug

Roger Wilko, over and out, Farmerdoug  ::) ;D

 ::) :D :D :D :D

HEY, that's how "Sky King" youster sign out.  ::) ::) ;D ;D

FD,

Is this what you are talking about?

SpinnerII (http://www.spinnerii.com/index.cfm/div/divID/40/divid/0)

Farmerdoug

  YEP, that's similar. I really would like a Dieselcraft OC-20, if possible  ::)
:D :D :D

  The Dieselcraft is a more user friendly system, and I have all the necessary data to set it up.  Spinner2, I have no real data, only that it is not as good at cleaning water from the oil.

  What about Snowmobile Variable Speed Drive system for maybe 20 HP ???  :) :) :)

OK,  That gives me something to ask for to start with anyways.  I would feel a little silly asking if they have any used spinning oil filters. ::) ;D

On the snowmobile drive I will watch for something.  To be honest snowmobiles are not my thing so I never pay much attention to them.  I will check the next time I am at the scrap to see if they have any snowmobiles for scrap.

Farmerdoug

Naturally, I know NOTHING about Snowmobiles. I'm looking for the Variable Speed Drive Pulleys and actuator. It replaces a Transmission. Had one on the JD Combine I had. Worked NEAT  ;D ;D

I think there is one on our old massy harris combine.  It is probably too big for what you want it for though. ???

Farmerdoug

What are you going to do with the snomo drive? Joe

I'm trying to build a Diesel Motorcycle. A Road Cruiser for comfort.  ;D

Harold.....don't get your pant leg caught in that sno-mo drive ;) yikes_smiley hurt_smiley bike_rider

Harold's pants ain't got no legs. ::) :D :D

Yes, a snowmobile clutch system is what Harold needs, both halves.  The engine clutch is only speed sensitive and will shift down as the RPM goes down.  The secondary clutch has a rotation to the movable sheave that causes it to close some as torque load increases.  With that, the engine will retain its RPM while providing more torque to the output shaft.

Ones I've seen for combines lack the torque sensing and rely on hydraulically changing the clutch.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, Dat's IT. A non mechanical actuated type.

  I ain't never seen one. The Combine one was hydraulically activated, maybe.

  The one I want, will allow a start up from a light or stop sign, then, as speed picks up, RPM's stay the same or go down to a "Cruising" level.  Might still need a mechanical actuated one, to maintain Hwy speeds ???  ???  I just don't know, YET  ::) ::) ;D :D

  Had one on a Sears Lawn Tractor. Worked by pul;ling or pushing on a lever.  Them things are smooth as silk.  :) :)

Harold.....don't get your leg hair caught in that sno-mo drive!

No problem with ANYTHING gettin caught in the drive.

  I been lookin, and there are other possibilities besides the belt and Pulleys deallie.

  OK, nother bright idea  ::) ::) ::)

  What about fluid power ???

  Use a Hydraulic pump on the Diesel Engine. Put a Hydraulic Motor on the Driveshaft. Control flow with a Flow controller, operated by cable to hand or foot mechanism. Run hot oil through a radiator of sorts, to cool oil. Need a reservoir and pressure relief valve.

  What's the durability of such a rig ???  Will it provide decent "Bite" off the line and then proceed to cruising speed ???

  Where's all the Hydraulical geniuses ???

I thought the losses on hyd were pretty large?

I've read everywhere from 35% loss to 87% efficiency, and MORE if certain criteria is used.  Where's them DanG geniouses  ??? ::) ::)

Not so sure those last two words were ever ment to go together DeadHeader. :D :D :D

If you are looking for the best fuel efficancy  hydo is not the way to go.  However the Deere 595 garden tractor will cherp the tires  . it is a hydro.   I have several hydralic motor drives  ,and the speed is almost instant . It depends on how fast and how much volume is flowing at the drop of the hammer. A lot of the Amish woodworkers convert their tools to hydralic motors  and get along well with them.

Fladeadheader, in the past I worked as an unlicensed marine engineer for a company that did cruise dining. They had boats from here to Sanford Florida.                                                                                                                  Anyway, the last boat built was a 105' paddle boat. It was propelled by two diesel engines directly attached  to large Eaton hydraulic pumps. Steel lines ran to the twin paddle wheels on the stern where there were two Hagglunds hydraulic motors turning the wheels.
We had two problems with the system. The first was no accumulators were designed into the system. Without this, starts and stops are hard on everything.. think hose failure.
The second problem was that the paddle shafts couldn't take the torque. They were hollow shafts, 6" dia, 3/4" material. These had to be rewelded many times the first season and were replaced with solid shafts during the off season.
After these problems were fixed there were no hydraulic problems.

I found a couple 2 and 3 cyl Kubota diesel engines. HP is around 14-18.
I cant find the combination to figure the size of pump and motor. I will direct couple the Hyd motor to the driveshaft on the Bike rear. It should be a 3:25-1 ratio.

  Anybody ???  there were links to 3 calculators put on a post, however, IF I knew the flow rate and torque, I would have already bought the Hyd parts ??? I need to go from Diesel HP to max Hyd capabilities. ???  I'm planning on open center system, so, bypassing oil under pressure is ruled out. That builds more heat, which I do not need.

  HEELLLLLPPP 

In reality  open center produces more heat .  The reason is oil is always circulating.  Closed center has the pump running on idle till it is needed . but then you need a charge pump to keepp oil available at a moments notice for the main pump ,Genealy a VARIABLE PISTON PUMP .  Open cenrer generaly uses a gearpump

Hmmmmmm

  I was thinkin that oil under pressure would get hotter. Just circulating at "0" pressure would be better ???  Hmmmmmmm

  The pump would speed up-slow down, as the engine is revved, just like a car. Idling at a stop light would need "0" pressure. An accumulator would cushion the start-stop jerking modes.

How does an accumulator for an open hydraulic system work?

I had a piece of equipment with a tank on it that was supposed to work as an accumulator.  It was a piece of 4" square tube that had been sealed on both ends and an in and out coupling welded to the end.  The square tubing couldn't handle the pressure and kept splitting.  Sometimes it would split at the welds and sometimes it would split in the square tube edges where it had been bent or extruded at a 90.

Even water pressure tanks need some kind of cushion or they "hammer". 

I was told once when I was a young fellow that hydraulc oil was like pushing a stick.  It was just the man's way of explaining how it worked.  If it is like pushing a stick, because it is less resistant to compression than water or air, how is a hydraulic accumulator manufactured/designed?

Harold,

Have you looked into using a swashbuckle plate hydraulic pump?  When the plate is in the neutral position, no fuel is being pump.  The pump just sits there and turns.  There is no fuel movement until the plate is shifted away from neutral.  Saw them used in some very high reliability systems.

Bruce

Have NO idea how an accumulator is constructed. It acts as a "reserve" pressure tank. Still pokin holes in the build, to see what I can figure out.

  Never heard of the swashbuckle plate pump, Bruce.  I'll look into it.

A hyd. accumulator either has a piston witha spring to force oil back out as it overcomes the hyd. press. or it has a a nitrogen charged bag /diaphraminside the tank .

Oil just spinning in a tranny is at 0 psi and it heats up .  Oil in a opencenter type pump is being forced through two gears . so even if it is just dumping out of the pump it has some pressure.

I don't think that you need a closed center pump or a variable piston or swashplate . just run the gearpump and a hyd motor through a variable valve. 
One other thought get a hydrostatic drive unit  that has the pumpand motor all in one unit .  That will give you the smoothest of all systems that you could put together.
  Look up   Serplus Center   Linclon Ne

Tom, What Don said is correct. :) The accumulators on the Star of Charlevoix were nitrogen charged. They look very similar to a large oil filter assy with a charge valve on the top. They are installed in line on the pressure side of the system.                                                                                                                  If you think of a  newer water well pressure tank like Well Xtroll  you basically have an accumulator.

I already been to Surplus Center.  All I could find was transaxle hydrostatic. They did youster have accumulators , also  ::) ::)

  Tha transaxle will have spiders, no ??  Maybe I need to search for exploded view of a transaxle ???  My Bike will have a final drive gearbox, that is inside the real wheel hub. I just have to connect a Hyd motor to the splided driveshaft.

I thought most of the newer garden tractor transaxles were hydrostatic.  They would have the right HP requirements for you, but not the right gearing for "road speed".  

There are quite a few ATV's with "automatic" drives, and they would be much closer to what you are looking for,  Maybe find a wrecked Polaris ranger, I don't know if the tranny can be disassociated from the engine on those.  

better yet, a Kubota RTV.  already have the deisel engine and the tranny.  Kubota Specs link (http://www.kubota.com/h/products/Rtvspecs.pdf)

Yup, the transaxle will have spiders.  A transaxle incorporates a hydrostatic transmission, differential and rear axle.  It might work OK for a 3 wheel motorcycle, but I think it might be tough making it work for a 2 wheel motorcycle.

The ones I worked on had a variable volume pump controlled by a swash plate that fed a hydraulic motor that drove the pinion.

This is the rear "Clip" I will be using. It shows gearbox, brake caliper and rotor, and drive shaft. It swivels on the mail frame, to obtain a "softer" ride. I got a wheel and tire with it, and it's all BRAND NEW.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10330/FDHswingarm.jpg)

Well, that probably explains why mine didn't work.  If figured that it needed some kind of mechanical device to allow for expansion/compression since oil doesn't compress.

Just found an interesting Site HERE (http://savoiapower.com)

This guy shows how he discovered you can power a sterling type engine using salt water. Interesting Video clip from their local news station at the bottom of story shows how he did it.
I sent this to folks in my e-mail circle and two responded back saying big oil will buy this and squash it. >:(
http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=68227

So how much energy does it take to make the radio waves?

A high frequency glue machine sends radio waves into one plate, through the gluelines in a panel and to ground in the top plate. They can excite and vaporize the water out of the glue in half a minute or so. 15-20 kw and I don't think there was enough splitting of molecules to run an engine. There was enough electricity used to run one  ???

I make biodiesel from used vegetable oil in our area.  My cost is about $1.10 per gallon (not counting labor, of course).  I have run it in my farm tractors for 2 years.  I like it so much that I'm converting my bandsaw to a diesel engine, and I'll saw with it too.

I made a Savonius style windmill, which really didn't work at all.  Anybody thinking about Savonius style windmill, give me a holler.  If I get around to building another one, it will be the conventional type.

I would also like to hear from someone who made an electric tractor, or car, or go-cart of any kind.  I have an interest in making one of these ever since I saw the electric tractor this fall at the Nittany Antique Machinery Show in central PA.  That thing was awesome!

Hey, Clousert, what type of a rig are you using to make the bio diesel? 
Are you using sodium or potasium hydroxide?
How are you handling the glycerol and wash water?

To OneWithWood:  We had the local welding shop weld a metal cone onto the bottom of a 55 gallon drum, and put the whole thing on legs.  A water heater electrode and thermostat are mounted in the cone.  That is my reactor.  After that I have 2 more flat bottom barrels, in series.

I use sodium hydroxide, the standard household lye, except I purchase it in 50-lb. bags.

Glycerine is drained off the cone bottom reactor about 6 to 12 hours after conversion.  Fuel is pumped into next barrel for settling, (24 hours) and to the fuel barrel after that, also with a bottom drain.  My barrels are equipped with a bottom tap (stove boiler drain) and another tap about one-third the way up.  Barrels are never completely empty, as I only use fuel from the high taps.

Glycerine is just hand-dumped into a storage barrel.  What I don't use as liquid soap, I dump onto a big manure compost pile. 

I made 2 batches of homemade bar soap, which worked OK for man-soap, but the women in my house won't touch it.

My dad wants to make a burner to utilize the glycerine better.  It burns well when hot.  In my one soap batch, I was bringing a kettle of glycerine to near-boiling on the stove, and caught the entire pan on fire!

Another biodiesel story from wired.com  ;D

The Lion, the polygamist and the biofuel scam. (https://www.wired.com/story/lion-polygamist-and-biofuel-scam/?utm_source=pocket-newtab)