Hey guys, saw milling is still very new to me and I'm just sawing for myself. I've been toying with the idea of building a drag style band sharpener. I've seen a bunch of videos on the web and read about some on the forum here. I've also read a bunch of the sharpening posts. I see some sharpeners go down the face of the tooth, clean out the gullet, and grind up the back side of the blade. Others go down the face of the tooth, clean out the gullet then lift up without grinding the back of the tooth. Even production sharpeners are built both ways.
I understand the need to clean the gullet out. But what are the pros and cons of grinding the back of the tooth? It would seem to me that grinding the back of the tooth would be a waste of material from the hardened tooth. If your only removing a few thousandths of an inch on each sharpening and then only getting 3-5 sharpenings on a blade I don't see how it would change the shape of the blade enough to matter. In my mind the most it would do is create a small amount of extra room in the gullet to carry the sawdust out.
When your tooth dulls, it is because the whole tip of the tooth is eroding, not just the face. If you just grind the face, you end up with a rounded tip with a sharp face. Grinding the back gives you a square, chisel shaped edge.
Designing a sharpener with he cam movements intrigues me, but I'll never get around to it😊 If I were to build one now, it would be with the shaped CBN wheels, where the grinding wheel comes down and hits the whole profile in one touch, instead of a drag type. Actually, you could accomplish both on the same machine with just a different cam.
I've considered getting a profiled CBN wheel for my Cooks drag sharpener, and modifying the cam to work with shaped CBN wheel. MAYBE I'll get around to that one some day😊
PS drag sharpeners are fussy, imo. I think the term ,"learning curve" may have originated from trying to get the grinding wheel shaped and the machine adjusted right to grind the gullet and back of the tooth correctly😁
I looked at the CBN wheel sharpeners too. I have a very old Craftsman radial arm saw I was going to convert. But I think the drag sharpener will be a better fit for me right now. I'm buying small batches of bands. 5 at a time so far. I want to try several different brands and tooth configurations to see what works best on my mill. That would probably require multiple CBN wheels which isn't in the old budget at this time. I could cut a cam for each batch of blades for just a little time.
Your question about only sharpening the tooth face would be equivalent to sharpening a dull knife blade on only one side.
Knowing now what I didn't know then😊 I wouldn't mess around with different blade profiles much. Woodmizer 10° have always cut just fine for me, and that is a somewhat standard blade profile that other manufacturers make as well. I run the Woodmizer 7/39 Turbo blades now. They allow a faster feed rate but you need a little more horsepower for them.
All I have now are the 7°, for everything I saw.
A RAS based CBN sharpener should work quite well, and be very simple.
Dod I mention that drag sharpeners are very fussy?😊
I always remember something someone used to say on here, when folks would start going on about this blade profile or that being the only way to go-
"Sharpen and set carry the mail" -Frank C.
Having never sharpened a bandsaw bade before I assumed that when you sharpen the front it would straighten the tip up too. I knew you guys could set me straight. I've got the grind motor and the gear reduction motor already. If it all falls through there's still the old Craftsman saw to fall back on. I have 5 of the woodmizer 10° blades. But I haven't run the mill since they came in.
Quote I'm buying small batches of bands. 5 at a time so far. I want to try several different brands and tooth configurations to see what works best on my mill.
Seems to me this approach will lead to a lot of frustration, as there are way too many variables that cannot be controlled to "see what works best". Far too few different blades in your "batches" to draw any helpful conclusions. If experimenting, try to cut your variables down to just one, or two at most. And every log will be different which is a variable that can't be controlled.
I agree with the above. I sawed well over 1MM board feet with 10° blades before I switched totally to Turbo7°. During that time I tried blades from other manufacturers, as well as 4°, 7°, & 9°. The proper set will probably affect your sawing performance more than the tooth profile.
My recommendation is always to avoid "chasing blades".
OK, So I probably need to settle on 10° or 7° blades and just go from there. The sharpener project is something I can work on during cold rainy days inside.
My band speed is too high at full throttle. I think it is shortening the blade life. I really don't know for sure since I've only used two blades and the second one was ruined by the metal side stop. When I get to saw again I'm going to throttle it down and see if the little diesel still has the torque to do the job. If not I've got to change the pulley configuration. I knew the drive pulley was too small going in but couldn't find one like I wanted. I can't change the one on the engine as it's a flange mounted pulley bolted directly to the flywheel. Something will turn up. It always does.
I expect to cut mostly pine for a while as we have a lot of trees dying right now. I do have one pecan and one Black Locust to process before I can start on the pine.
(Nothing to do with Sawmills)
Primitive weapon season opened for us this morning and I was blessed to harvest a nice sized doe. She's in the cooler chilling down now.
There are formulas (there's one in the Forum Extras Toolbox) for figuring out your blade speed. A bit over 5000fpm is fairly standard, I believe my Woodmizer LT40 with a 40hp diesel spins my blade faster- approaching 6500fpm to cut faster with the additional power.
I would nudge you in the direction of picking a profile (or two, or three, if you have to..) and getting CBN wheels for them and building your sharpener around that.
Especially for a diy build, it removes many of the variables and does a better job without the whole process of chasing stone profile and cams shapes etc.
Be cool to see how you do it in any case, keep us posted with plenty of pics ^^
Quote from: RetiredTech on November 05, 2023, 05:29:11 PM
Hey guys, saw milling is still very new to me and I'm just sawing for myself. I've been toying with the idea of building a drag style band sharpener. I've seen a bunch of videos on the web and read about some on the forum here. I've also read a bunch of the sharpening posts. I see some sharpeners go down the face of the tooth, clean out the gullet, and grind up the back side of the blade. Others go down the face of the tooth, clean out the gullet then lift up without grinding the back of the tooth. Even production sharpeners are built both ways.
I understand the need to clean the gullet out. But what are the pros and cons of grinding the back of the tooth? It would seem to me that grinding the back of the tooth would be a waste of material from the hardened tooth. If your only removing a few thousandths of an inch on each sharpening and then only getting 3-5 sharpenings on a blade I don't see how it would change the shape of the blade enough to matter. In my mind the most it would do is create a small amount of extra room in the gullet to carry the sawdust out.
According to Tim Cook you sharpen the back of the tooth to assure that all teeth are the same height and, consequently all working equally while cutting.
Thanks Ken, now that I think about it that makes perfect since. It's like flattening a handsaw blade before you sharpen it.
Barbender,
This is the site I used to check my band speed. Band speed (https://www.blocklayer.com/band-saweng)
Assuming an engine speed of 3600rpm my band speed is just over 7000fpm Even if the old diesel isn't producing 3600rpm it's still too high. If I can drop rpm down to around 2800 or a little less I should be in a good range. Hopefully she'll still produce enough torque. If not I'll need to change the gearing ratio. It cuts fine but leaves a lot of very fine sawdust in the cut. When I visited MM the sawdust that did remain in the cut from his WM was much more granular. The engine is a small 3 cylinder Kubota diesel. The pulley mounted on the flywheel is 4 1/4" diameter. The pulley on the band wheel is 12" diameter and the band wheels are 21" diameter. I remember when I was building the mill I wanted a 16" pulley but didn't have one available. Instead of waiting for the 16" I found a 12" and forged ahead with it. I think I should have waited.
Josh,
The CBN sharpener would be much easier to build and I may end up with one when it's all done. However, the drag sharpener is going to happen first. If it fails I have a backup plan. A CBN wheel mounted to an old Craftsman radial arm saw, a blade guide and a lever advance. Easy-peasy. But I still need to scratch this "Rube Goldberg" itch first.
We'll look forward to your progress pics! popcorn_smiley
RT, that diesel should be governed in the 2800-3000 rpm range if I'm not mistaken. I'd try to find the specs for that engine and see what the governed rpms are. Lowering your engine speed to get the right blade spade is not the right way to go about it. I'd ust get the right size pulley and be done with it.
You have too many variables to assume that the fine sawdust left in the cut is due to the blade speed. Fine dust is more likely from a dull blade, and when the blade is dull the fine dust it makes spills out of the gullet.
I'm really not sure about the little diesel. It was another freebee. This mill was built mostly from my scrap iron pile. The engine is a Kubota D662. It came on what was left of an old garden tractor/lawn mower. What little data I was able to find on it is contradictory in hp. It lists it as a 12.7hp at 3600 rpm but then goes on to say it's Max hp is 19.2 @3600 rpm. It's supposed to have a " Centrifugal ball mechanical governor" but doesn't say that top rpm is governed less than the rated 3600rpm. I've just assumed the hp is somewhere between the two maybe 16hp and wide open throttle was near 3600rpm. I don't have anyway to measure the engine rpm.
Changing the pulley is not as easy as just bolting on a new one. In order to mount the pulley behind the trailer tire I had to use a cut down 8" trailer wheel mounted to the back side of the axle hub and weld the the pulley to it. Remember, scrap iron. I can build another one and will probably order one in the near future. Extra torque is always nice. MORE POWER hohoho. Now that the mill is running and producing lumber my wife is beginning to see the benefit and doesn't mind me spending a little money on it here and there.
She was dead set against a mill in the beginning. That's what prompted the cheapo build instead of buying a mill in the first place. Gotta keep Moma happy you know. When I read through Gww's build from some old exercise equipment I knew I could make it work, mostly with what I had on hand. It's been a fun project and I've learned a lot along the way. All the help I've gotten here has been great and no body has criticized my rinkydink mill all. Everyone just seems to accept it for what it is and try to help me make it better.
Quote from: RetiredTech on November 07, 2023, 08:07:25 AMAll the help I've gotten here has been great and no body has criticized my rinkydink mill all. Everyone just seems to accept it for what it is and try to help me make it better.
Actually, that is the Forestry Forum way!! thumbs-up
Hey guys, I value your opinions greatly. I didn't mean to change this thread into another one about my mill. If you'd like to continue the discussion of Engine speed / sawdust size I've posted some sawdust photos on the original mill thread here DIY Scrap Iron Bandsaw Mill (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=121349.new#new).
I'll get some photos up here about the Drag Sharpener. For starters this is a hunk of Cedar I salvaged from a log my uncle tried to burn up. I remember this tree when it was planted at the corner of my Grandparents house. I want to use it as the sharper base. The other side is actually better, but the photo didn't turn out.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/Cedar.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1699391864)
That hunk of salvaged ERC is destined to become a treasure. :)
I don't know about a treasure, but I'll always remember that little Cedar tree and Grandma's when I see it. We cut it down to size ran it through a planer and put some polyurethane on it to seal it. Here's the top side of it. Complete with scorch marks.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/Cedar_for_Sharpener.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1699482173)
This is the Vevor Chainsaw Sharpener I plan to use for the project and the little 30rpm gear reduction motor that will drive the band advance. Both have been delivered. We'll see what else I need as the project moves along. I see rain in the forecast so it may sooner than I thought.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/Vevor_Chainsaw_Sharpener.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1699482283)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/Greartisan_DC_12V_30RPM.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1699482283)
Quote from: RetiredTech on November 08, 2023, 07:09:36 PMI see rain in the forecast so it may sooner than I thought.
I surely hope that your forecast is also my forecast. I would git nekkid and do a rain dance if I thought that it would help. :o
Please don't. And if you do pictures are forbidden.
Lynn won't do anything without pictures😂
Think we read about MM doing that once before. As he was streaking by an old couple at the old-folks home, one turned to the other and said "wasn't that MM running by, and what was he wearing"??
The other responded "I don't know, but it needed ironing!"
Quote from: RetiredTech on November 08, 2023, 07:09:36 PM... the little 30rpm gear reduction motor that will drive the band advance.
I have a custom built drag sharpener and the band advance seems to run at about 11 rpm +- and that's a bit on the slow side. I think somewhere in the 15 to 20 rpm range would be ideal. It's going to be interesting to see that running at 30 rpm. Just my 2 cents worth. Time will tell. Hoping to see a video.
Quote from: RAYAR on November 09, 2023, 04:17:24 PMI think somewhere in the 15 to 20 rpm range would be ideal.
Good to know. I have a small pwm I was going to use during the cam programming phase. I wasn't planning to leave it on the completed project though. I bought it a while back for another project that got shoved to the back burner. It may be a little small for this application, I guess I need to look it up.
Quote from: RAYAR on November 09, 2023, 04:17:24 PMI have a custom built drag sharpener
I just checked out the sharpener in your gallery. Nice Build.
Quote from: Magicman on November 09, 2023, 01:58:28 PM
Quote from: RetiredTech on November 08, 2023, 07:09:36 PMI see rain in the forecast so it may sooner than I thought.
I surely hope that your forecast is also my forecast. I would git nekkid and do a rain dance if I thought that it would help. :o
Well, It was raining when I got up this morning. Just a sprinkle now, but we'll take all we can get right now. We're still under a burn ban from the drought. Radar looks like we might have a little more coming. Maybe you could get dressed now. ;D
Magician... age is just a number. And slow is a speed too.
I built one that is basically a Grindlux copy. I added a variable speed control so I can get it dialed in at slow speed then crank it up to finish the job. I also made my cam to follow the whole profile and not just kiss the back of the tooth like some of the low cost sharpeners tend to do out of the box. I probably spent about $125 on parts.
Cool. Post some pictures when you get time. I'd love to see it.
Quote from: RetiredTech on November 09, 2023, 06:42:24 PM
Quote from: RAYAR on November 09, 2023, 04:17:24 PMI have a custom built drag sharpener
I just checked out the sharpener in your gallery. Nice Build.
Thanks
My sharpener came with my custom built mill, I didn't build it. I have modified it some to get it to where I can use it and do a good job on sharpening my blades, which I'm currently using now. They're cutting great.
It also had a tooth setter built on the back of the frame using a pair of vise grips to operate the setter, but that was not usable as you'd be lucky to get any two teeth set equally. I was going to rebuild it or actually build a dual tooth setter, but nothing done there yet.
I was very impressed with the Vevor Chainsaw sharpener when I first took it out of the box. The frame is all cast metal not plastic like the HF model I use to cleanup my old chains. I almost wanted to keep it for my chainsaws. A little closer examination revealed it's roots and flaws. More on that in a minute.
The sharpener is made to hang over the bench or whatever it's mounted on. It has two stops on the bottom edge that are supposed to line up with the front edge of the bench. For my application I didn't want it hanging over so I ground them off with the bench grinder. That's the shiny sections you see on each side. Since I wanted it to sit flat on the board I'm going to mount it to I removed the bottom knob, installed a nut and cut the excess threads off.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/Base_Botton.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1699899790)
I also had to remove the spring that holds the head up in it's normal configuration. The small screw and bracket on the top right corner of the hing was removed also to allow the head to be picked up higher. Removing the spring revealed the first flaw. There's way more slop in the pin area than there should be. This can be fixed by drilling and taping the other side of the inner hinge to match the screw that was removed to allow the head to lift higher. Tighten a longer screw against the shaft on both sides and most of the play will be gone. The shaft will pivot in the outer hinge holes that are a much closer fit. You can see the other problem where the hole comes through under the hinge. The head is supposed to be adjustable for different angles but wouldn't sit flush against the mount and didn't adjust very well at all. I traced the problem to a blob of metal on the castings angle pivot hole. You can see the bright spot at the bottom of the hole where I filed the face flat.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/Hinge_Area.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1699899796)
The last improvement I made for the casting was to remove the non flat washer they supplied and ground a nice radius on a larger fender washer to slide over the arched adjustment slot and doubled it with a smaller washer. The adjuster works smoothly now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/Angel_Adjustment.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1699899781)
This picture shows all the extra chain sharpening pieces removed. The small bolt in the center is used to adjust the drag on the band.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/Base_stripped.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1699899791)
Last picture. I plan to reuse the chain guides that were on the sharpener. They have a little dimple on each side to help space them apart for the chain. I filed the dimples flat on one of the guided and also removed one of the washers from each bolt. The remaining washer that I did use I filed flat on one side so the band could fit a little lower in the channel. That's it for this go around. I think it's going to work out OK.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/Band_Guides.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1699899785)
I would post a picture but it looks like this forum doesn't like photos from my iPhone. Good luck with your build.
Many post from their phones. You upload to your gallery then insert it into your post from there.
Quote from: YooperFrank on November 15, 2023, 06:31:11 PM
I would post a picture but it looks like this forum doesn't like photos from my iPhone. Good luck with your build.
Welcome to the forum Yopper. I guess I missed that you were new before. Posting Photos on the FF is not very intuitive. After you do it a few times it's not bad at all. Check this post for instructions. Posting Photos (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=100194.0)'s
I followed that process. The problem appears to be the site doesn't like iPhone format. Tells me that it won't upload a file with that extension. I guess you need to re-save/edit photo and save as jpeg.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/70835/Sharpener.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1700153242)
It was too nasty to get out today so I worked on the band sharpener a little while. Here are a few pictures to show what I have so far. I don't know why the first photo looks like the advancing arm running at an angle. I must have been standing offset to one side or something. It's actually in line with the band guides. I ran it for a while with no blade in the slot and it tracks perfectly. .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/PXL_20231216_233346990.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1702771474)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/PXL_20231216_233358866.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1702771474)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/PXL_20231216_233514383.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1702771476)
Not much progress I know. But I'll get it done. Hopefully before I run out of blades.
That's one of those projects where you just have to focus on one aspect at a time and get it right, then move on to the next aspect. I think you are doing is just right.
Frankly though. I had a hard time focusing on what you wrote after I saw the lace cloth on your workbench. It occurred to me that I have been woefully inadequate all my life in the adornments I use to enhance the appearance of my shop. I must be a total slob, because your workspace just blows mine away. I guess I have to work on that. I wonder what people have thought when they come in my shop and now I am so ashamed. ;D
LOL. I guess you know that's not my work shop. Fact is, I don't have a shop right now. I have a small space upstairs amongst all the stored junk where I can work on small projects when the weather is bad. There wasn't enough clear space up there to get an uncluttered photo so I carried it downstairs to the table. It was only there for a few minutes so my wife didn't fuss.
Back when I had a shop it was usually a mess. But I knew where everything was and it worked well for me. I hope to have that problem again someday. Wow, that was nearly 30 years ago.
I finally got worked back around to the sharpener project. Looks like it's going to work out alright. I made a lift arm for it with some flat bar stock and skate board bearings. Since the sharpener sets up off the base a bit I just let it pass under the band to gain more leverage to lift the grinder. It worked out fine. I also finished the cam. it's just MDF but it should last a long time. If I ever have to replace it I think I might use a piece of HD Plastic board.
I was able to restore most of the teeth to a band that tried to eat my log stop. Almost all the teeth were broken off right below the temper. The other 4-6 teeth were completely gone. I figured there was no hurting that one. ffcheesy Still need to mount the electrical components make support arms and mount the rubber feet on the bottom of the base. But It does work. I'll get more pictures once I get it reassembled and a little more complete.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/thumb_Sharpener_Parts.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=353488)(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/thumb_Sharpener_Lift_Arm_02.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=353487)(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/thumb_Sharpener_Advance_and_Lift_Wheel.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=353485)
It was a rainy day here so I decided to try out the sharpener on some real blades. Since I haven't made the support arms yet I just used some 2x6's to support the band. It worked out very well. I sharpened 4 blades today. I think I'm starting to get the hang of how it works. The first blades I bought weren't welded where teeth worked out equally. They have extra space at the weld joint that doesn't work out well for the two teeth in the weld area. I'll try to clean them up with a dremel tool. Funny thing is I've bought two boxes of blades from Woodmizer and the teeth at their weld are just like the rest of the blade.
I was so pleased with how the sharpener works that I ordered spare grinder wheels. :thumbsup: Once I finish sharpening the rest of my dull bands the sharpener will have paid for itself.
Next build has to be a tooth setter. Maybe a modified Piney Woods setter.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/PXL_20240502_162402069.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=353654)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66410/PXL_20240502_162348375.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=353653)
Nice! I've had the same experience with WM blades- the welds are always spaced correctly, flat, smooth, and the teeth aresequenced correctly too. At least in 158" blades like standard for so many WM mills. That hasn't been my experience with other suppliers, but there are many I haven't tried yet😊
I tried using other manufacturer's blades a couple of times. I was once sent some free just to try and give a report. I did, but there was no reason for me to make a changeover.
When I built my mill I made sure I could use an off the shelf blade so I wouldn't have trouble getting them. Mine uses the same length band as the WM LT70/Super 70, 184". I was surprised to see the difference at the weld in the blades from two different manufacturers. I had "assumed" if there was a right way and a wrong way to make a blade everyone would build to the same standard. It really doesn't work that way.
@MM I remember reading your post of those trial blades. If I remember right you tried a couple of them and weren't impressed with them at all.
I think as long as Woodmizer blades are in the same price range as others, I'm sticking with them. If nothing else it sure makes resharpening easier. The other brand I have two teeth at the weld on each band that will require extra attention. The good thing is I took my metal strike frustrations out on them and there are only 4 usable blades left.
I think in a lot of shops, band assembly is a job for the new guy🤷
Quote from: RetiredTech on May 03, 2024, 11:58:51 AMIf I remember right you tried a couple of them and weren't impressed with them at all
They sawed ok, but certainly no better than the Wood-Mizer blades that I was using. Understandably, Wood-Mizer would not resharpen any blades other than theirs, so how would I have them resharpened?
I went on a job to saw Post Oak and put a 4° blade on because that was the "thing to do". It waved so I put a Turbo 7° on and sawed the job. As quickly as I used the remainder of the 4° blades that was it for me.
I used 10° and 4° for ten years but I am now 100% using Turbo 7° blades and there will be no blade experimenting by me.
@MartyParsons at PA Wood-Mizer is now doing my blade resharpening.
I'm running the Turbo 7 (7/39) as well. I don't like messing with blades much.
Same here: 7/39's, the leftover 10's I have I reground to 7's.
Have only ever used WM and no plans to try others.
I have some 10s I ordered on accident that I've been grinding to Turbo 7s. On the third sharpening, just when the profile is almost fully ground, they break. I try not to grind them too hard in the gullet, but I think it is still too much and they get hot and brittle. That's my theory anyhow😊