WOOD GARAGE FLOOR

[RAYGYVER]

I have a 40' x 60' pole barn. Clay subsoil, good drainage, with 4" of gravel inside. New barn, only 1 year old. I just bought a Woodland Mills HM126 with 14hp motor. After having several concrete guys come out and give me quotes for ~$9000-$10,000 for just the 40' x 40' area of the floor. I said screw it! I am buying a mill and will try to give it my best shot milling, planing, and making one awesome wood floor. 

So my thoughts are to get the biggest logs I can from craigslist Free section. I take the logs and mill them 2"-4" thick and as long and as wide as possible. Let'em dry if they are green. I have a 13" planer, so I figured anything under 13" wide I can sen through the planer. I'll worry about straightening the boards after I mill them and let'em dry.

Now...I know I need to compact the subsoil and base gravel. I wonder if I should bring in sand on top of the gravel like wood pavers, or if I can get by with the wood directly on the gravel. Maybe I should install a moisture barrier over the sand. 

I know this is totally unconventional. And I like it that way. If I can put free wood down, and keep it from rotting, why the heck not have a nice wood floor over a concrete floor? Im 32 and can do the labor. I've only had one back surgery and three hernias, so I should be good to go for awhile.... :

[Southside]

Two things come to mind. First, unless you bring in a laser grading system you are not going to get that material dead level, so your floor won't be level or even flat .

The second thought is that depending on the wood species you use, with only a couple exceptions, you will see rot happening within one to a few years. 

$9K-$10K is actually not a bad price for a concrete pad that size. 

[btulloh]

It is unconventional, for sure.  You're not going to be happy with just laying boards down on gravel no matter what.  You could do it by putting down something for stringers sleepers and then putting the floor down like a barn floor.  It would be like having the joists sitting right on the gravel.  If you're going to do that, you might as well put in some piers and build a conventional floor system.  Doing either of those is going to raise the level of the floor, if you can live with that.  Better treat for termites and put down a moisture barrier.

A wood floor is nice but probably better do something conventional.  Or at least semi-conventional.  

It will be interesting to see who chimes in on this topic.  By tomorrow you should have lots of opinions and ideas.

Good luck.  Keep us informed as you go.

[Don P]

You can do it like a permanent wood foundation, sand, plastic, sleepers, floor, all wood foundation grade treated or it rots probably sooner than later. or you can learn how to place concrete, that's about $3500 worth of concrete. divide it up into minimum transit loads and have a go at it. It will be at least as flat as the rotting wood and will last a good bit longer.

[ScottCC]

I thought it was crazy until last winter.  Then...... I did this on a stone base with crossing 2"X6" pressure treated grid and pressure treated plywood on top of the grid, all screwed together.  It was great to work on, fixturing was easy, it warmed easily in the winter, legs did not tire, forklift never cracked plywood, easy to clean.  I'm sold and I pour flat work when needed.  Now I am going to do it in my saw mill shed up to concrete pad that mill sits on.  The only difference is I will place 1.5" insulation board between purlins in both direction for a little more warmth over time during the day.  It's cold in upstate NY.  But I do intend to use advantech sub-flooring.  Cool part is if I change my mind I'll unscrew it and change it around.  No material lost.

[RAYGYVER]

I thought it was crazy until last winter.  Then...... I did this on a stone base with crossing 2"X6" pressure treated grid and pressure treated plywood on top of the grid, all screwed together.  It was great to work on, fixturing was easy, it warmed easily in the winter, legs did not tire, forklift never cracked plywood, easy to clean.  I'm sold and I pour flat work when needed.  Now I am going to do it in my saw mill shed up to concrete pad that mill sits on.  The only difference is I will place 1.5" insulation board between purlins in both direction for a little more warmth over time during the day.  It's cold in upstate NY.  But I do intend to use advantech sub-flooring.  Cool part is if I change my mind I'll unscrew it and change it around.  No material lost.

Thanks everyone for the input.
ScottCC, thanks for sharing your experience. I've got 4" to work with from gravel to top of floor height. After compaction I may have 5". That doesn't leave any room for any kind of floor joists unless I use treated 2x's laying on their side.
There is a 1" drop from the back door to the front door. If I run a tight string across the garage I can get it close to looking flat. Yeah a laser would be handy. 
How long will an Eastern Red Cedar post last in a fence row? Or how about black locust? I thought those two species were very rot resistant. If I can get those species to use in the floor than I would be looking at much longer service life. 
Part of this idea is that its much easier and cheaper to lift up a board and replace it, than it is to tear out concrete and replace a whole slab section. I'm not sitting tractors or anything super heavy in the garage. It'll be mostly a man-cave/woodshop/garage for the classic cars. I have a 4 post lift I'll center over some concrete piers so its not resting on the wood floor. 
I am going to play with this...so I asked for your opinions guys and I am not afraid to listen. Sure, if I put pine and other less rot resistant woods down, I get the point. It'll rot. If I can keep the moisture out by installing a moisture barrier under the wood, and around the perimeter of the building....then aren't we talking about this being a possibility? Yeah its impractical, and in the long run will be more work...and possibly the same or more cost. But I will have a 40' x 60' solid wood floor in my man cave....way nicer than concrete...I mean come on...how cool would this be?
One other thought on the moisture issue. If I take each wood slab and treat the edges and bottom face with a wax, or maybe something spray on like a plastidip coating or roll on bed liner, wouldn't that keep the moisture out of the board? Certainly it would extend the life of the board.

[RAYGYVER]

Have any of you ever used Woodlife Copper Coat? I just did a quick google search for wood sealers/anti rot products. 

Looks like this stuff I could soak the bottom side of the wood slabs in, then lock the slabs into a sand base like a typical wooden paver.

The original inspiration for this floor was this wood paver street being layed down in this youtube video:

Wood Paver Alley, Chicago - YouTube

[Woodpecker52]

Rot and mold is all you will get from wood on compacted gravel around here in Ms. I don't care if its treated or not ,plastic barrier or not.  If you want to do it on the cheap, I have in the past gone in and blocked off a square area, called in the concrete truck and free poured it and gravity leveled by hand and rake.  Its not a machined level floor but for storing equipment, tractor, woodworking ,lumber storage and just plain Mississippi foot stomping it works and its quick.  Gravity does a good job on its own, also balance ,you can spin a log with your finger simply by rolling it up on a small section of 2x4, in other words save that back you will need it down the road.

[RAYGYVER]

So here is the man-cave being used for this experiment. I have a lot more stuff in it now, and the loft is further along now, but you get the idea.



 

[RAYGYVER]

Rot and mold is all you will get from wood on compacted gravel around here in Ms. I don't care if its treated or not ,plastic barrier or not.  If you want to do it on the cheap, I have in the past gone in and blocked off a square area, called in the concrete truck and free poured it and gravity leveled by hand and rake.  Its not a machined level floor but for storing equipment, tractor, woodworking ,lumber storage and just plain Mississippi foot stomping it works and its quick.  Gravity does a good job on its own, also balance ,you can spin a log with your finger simply by rolling it up on a small section of 2x4, in other words save that back you will need it down the road.

Peckerwood ...I mean woodpecker52...lol....thanks for your advice. I do live in KY, and I have the location of the barn up on the highest point of the surrounding area. It drains okay. I get a little moisture in the gravel, but I don't have anything blocking the water along the outside perimeter of the barn yet. I'd thing a good barrier 8"-12" deep below the toe boards would keep most of the water out. It only wicks into the barn from the outside. I also plan to add some lean-to style additions onto two of the more damp sides to protect from rain. 

[D L Bahler]

Corduroy road - Wikipedia

Wood laid directly upon the ground can work, and has a history of thousands of years. Not far from where I live there is an old road lined with an attractive row of sycamore trees on either side. This is because the original road was a corduroy road of sycamore logs, and they sprouted. We find old Roman corduroy roads all the time, and even older ones. 

It's worth noting that wooden roads are historically laid across wetlands where other road types would not have worked. 

It does go against logic, but it does seem to work. 

[Southside]

ERC is soft and won't stand up to vehicle or equipment traffic at all. Locust is a lot better, but wood posts almost always fail right at the dirt / air line, which is exactly what your entire floor will be. 

One thing I have learned is to ask why things are not done a certain way, if there are valid reasons then I ask why I think I will have different results. Unless I have a very convincing explanation then I should expect to pay my share of "stupid tax" should I choose to continue with said idea. 

[RAYGYVER]

ERC is soft and won't stand up to vehicle or equipment traffic at all. Locust is a lot better, but wood posts almost always fail right at the dirt / air line, which is exactly what your entire floor will be.

One thing I have learned is to ask why things are not done a certain way, if there are valid reasons then I ask why I think I will have different results. Unless I have a very convincing explanation then I should expect to pay my share of "stupid tax" should I choose to continue with said idea.

I've paid my fair share of stupid tax over the years. stupid_smileyWhich is one reason why I brought this thread to life. I figured more experienced guys might have some advice. 
Anyway, I agree to your logic. But there is always a caveat. Just because something isn't done a certain way, doesn't mean that it won't work. People come up with bright ideas all the time and they never do anything about these ideas because they believe the nay sayers. Don't get me wrong, I am not pioneering anything here, just looking for practical advice and possible solutions. 
At the end of the day, I just want to try something different. I am a different person. I was forced to conform to strict standards as a child and have been rebellious ever since I got the heck out. So, the more people who say I cannot or should not, the more motivated I am to find a solution...its nothing personal. This might end in disaster, but so did the first few SpacEx launches. And I am not doing anything that crazy, or anything that can't be fixed easily. 

[rjwoelk]

Concreate will last a lifetime and then some.  Rebar is cheap. Yes you have a upfront expense but then you are done with it. If you need the comfort of wood you can add a wood floor to that section or rubber matts. Infloor heating is a great way for comfort.  But if a wooden floor is what you want just make sure its got plastic vapour barrie down first.  I live in a different climate and dont have the bugs.  Our basement had cement deteriorated due to alkaline soil.  Removed put in railroad ties treated joists and plywood then poly with a undelay of somesort on top 35 years ago dont remember.
Still solid.  But just us walking on it with some furniture. 

[hedgerow]

So here is the man-cave being used for this experiment. I have a lot more stuff in it now, and the loft is further along now, but you get the idea.

Nice pole barn. In our area certain times of the year when temp and dew point is right we get a lot of frost on the inside of our pole barns and when the sun comes out it rains in the shed till the frost is gone. I would spend the money and pour some concrete where the lift will be and were you be working and leave the rest to rock. Pouring concrete with a couple buddy's would save a lot of money.  

[RAYGYVER]

So here is the man-cave being used for this experiment. I have a lot more stuff in it now, and the loft is further along now, but you get the idea.

Nice pole barn. In our area certain times of the year when temp and dew point is right we get a lot of frost on the inside of our pole barns and when the sun comes out it rains in the shed till the frost is gone. I would spend the money and pour some concrete where the lift will be and were you be working and leave the rest to rock. Pouring concrete with a couple buddy's would save a lot of money.  

Thanks for the reply. I already spent money on getting felt lined roof panels. The bottom side of the panels from the factory have felting that is glued to it. In the case there is humidity in the barn, and a cold air outside, the felt will absorb the moisture and wicks it up to the vented ridge where it evaporate. It works very well. I have yet to have a rain drop hit my head.

[Al_Smith]

It's none of my business but it sounds a little high for approx 20 yards of concrete maybe 4 inches thick .6 inches thick would be around 30 yards and 9-10 grand still sounds high .I don't know the price  per yard  nor labor to place and finish 1600 sq feet but would guess it should be about half that price .

[RAYGYVER]

It's none of my business but it sounds a little high for approx 20 yards of concrete maybe 4 inches thick .6 inches thick would be around 30 yards and 9-10 grand still sounds high .I don't know the price  per yard  nor labor to place and finish 1600 sq feet but would guess it should be about half that price .

My thoughts exactly. I was being lazy and getting them to quote the form work, rebar and the pouring/finishing. Basically the whole job. Still, that was a lot of money just for the 40' x 40' area. I wanted a wood mill anyways, and I am stupid, so I decided to do something stupid and make a wood floor. Ha. Maybe it'll turn out not so stupid in the end? Time will tell....

[Al_Smith]

Rerod wouldn't be that bad depending on where you buy it and the size .Forms are just 2 by 4's or 2 by 6 depending .

Just for general info those block floors from old time machine shops are treated placed either over concrete or hard tamped sand base .If water gets to them they swell up like a poisoned pup and literally explode out of the floor .I've seen it happen .The only reason they were ever installed was for ease of moving machinery like automotive assembley lines which used to change about every 5 years .They went the way of the passenger pigeon .After they disappeared it became mill pavers over concrete bedded  in sand . 

[barbender]

I think one could engineer a decent performing wood floor. It couldn't sit right on dirt though. A good vapor barrier over a base with drainage, treated sleepers, and some 1 1/2" white oak decking. A few guys have made floors for their mill sheds like this on here.

[Runningalucas]

Concrete attracts moisture; I'm sure most know that.  I never paid much attention to foundations other than regular portland cement/concrete.  Growing up in Texas, that's all people did; funny thing was, there were tons of foundation repair companies out there jacking the heck out of foundations, and busting up all the cracked portions to re-pore. 

I then learned about Permanent Wood Foundations; I thought what kind of fool would do this, but it's a regular thing.  Just search Youtube; they have a video/documentary style, that demonstrated these going in a high water table area I believe in Minnesota.  They were actually building these PWF's as full basements with sump pumps.  The key as with many things is water drainage(lots of gravel), plus a vapor barrier/air barrier. 

I would think since there's gravel now, if it's smooth, fine, if not, add a little sand, then you could get away with laying a vapor barrier, then the wood. (I've been researching plywood floors for a home; go check that stuff out on Pinterest!)

Regarding the wood, and treatment, I'd definitely oil the boards all around, and perhaps check out some sort of Borax solution for bugs. 

I like the thread, there's always a million ways to do something, standards are just that, the standard; other things do work.

[realzed]

Just my thoughts - from a completely different environment and perspective than yours I'm sure - but if it was me and I had he need to build something that would be 'for life' and didn't like the commercial cost of purchasing a concrete delivered and set floor, I would just rent or preferably buy a reasonably sized cement mixer and do it in sections myself, as time and effort permitted.
Concrete floors need to be cut or scored in an attempt to avoid unwanted cracks that always will show up as the pour gets larger and to that end I would just do a square at a time using a wood form and pour it in whatever square footage batches in the cement quality you feel you need, in sections with plastic vapor barrier and/or mesh added to ensure the durability that you wish to attain.  
Adding expansion joint material like you see in sidewalks or just butting each successive section, you can make the final product as smooth or rough as you wish depending on your finishing talent or effort, with basically hand tools like a rake, shovel and hand trowel to end up with a floor that would or could be as professional looking as your ability or time allows.
It might seem pretty labour intensive but that can somewhat be lessened depending on the size of each poured piece and pretty much done and completed as your schedule allows. 
I personally don't consider that trying to do all of the work to make boards and get them down and attached to some sort of good base structure, would or could come to anywhere less or even a comparable amount of effort, cost, or time to end up with a better end product - unless your aim is to try and impress with the uniqueness of the wood floor.. 
If you are not in a hurry, it might be the best way cost-wise and effort-wise to end up with a cheaper and better floor than wood could ever be or more economical than a  commercially bought concrete deal..
But ultimately just having a floor poured all in one day in a commercially delivered job - being able to walk on it the next - and having it all over and done with after 3 days or less does come with it's own set of conveniences and advantages certainly - cost be damned!
Again just my own thoughts an alternative..  

[Gary_C]

My first reaction was it isn't going to work but I've held my opinion till others have chimed in. After waiting, I still think it's a bad idea and here's why. 

Any board laying on the ground is going to have a temperature gradient and a moisture gradient. Most of the time the lowest temperature and highest moisture level will be on the ground side and the highest temperature and lowest moisture level will be on the top side. It makes no difference if you use a vapor barrier or not. So that moisture and temperature gradient will be a problem that will cause warping, twisting, cupping and rot. The only question is how long will it take for the floor to be unusable.

Then there is going to be those days after a cold spell when the temperature rises and the rains (high humidity) come. On those days the floor can become a condenser with surface water everywhere. 

But don't take my opinion as gospel. Try your idea on a small area and see how it works before you go all in.

[PA_Walnut]

I've done a wood floor in an old house basement on a dirt floor. Worked great.

• Put layer of fine stone down to keep materials off direct contact and level sleeper grid.
• Cover entire are with heavy-gauge plastic sheeting. (Make sure water can't get on top of it at edges).
• Use PT sleepers on top of stone to attach flooring.
• Use white oak flooring, which is weather/rot resistant. Locust would work too.
• If you can afford to, place some blue foam board insulation between sleepers. It will take a BIG difference.

Lots and lots of labor, but may be worth it to you. Doubt it'll really be much of a savings, but looks and feels great.

After 10 years, mine looked great. Good luck.

p.s. On the concrete, check to see what thickness and mix of concrete they had spec'd. You may not need what they were suggesting.

[RAYGYVER]

Rerod wouldn't be that bad depending on where you buy it and the size .Forms are just 2 by 4's or 2 by 6 depending .

Just for general info those block floors from old time machine shops are treated placed either over concrete or hard tamped sand base .If water gets to them they swell up like a poisoned pup and literally explode out of the floor .I've seen it happen .The only reason they were ever installed was for ease of moving machinery like automotive assembley lines which used to change about every 5 years .They went the way of the passenger pigeon .After they disappeared it became mill pavers over concrete bedded  in sand .

I've done assembly line automation design for Caterpillar. They still use wood assembly line floors. Anytime they drop something, they pull up the damaged wood and replace it. They stack 2x4's on end. I think they are 6"+ long. So the end grain is sticking up. From what I understood, they just compacted the subsoil and installed the wood. I bet they had some sort of paver base or something...all that really heavy equipment would need more than just compacted soil.