Does that work? If you can trim a defect off the end of a board, can you increase the remaining grade in the board, or does it just mean you end up with less board feet, and no gain in grade?
Obviously I am new to this whole grade sawing business...
I vote "YES"!
Say you're sell your FAS for $2bf, and #2 is $1.50. You can make a 11ft FAS by cutting a foot off of a 12 footer that would grade #2. You will be making a $22 board out of a $18 board and heat your house with the residue. ;D
Alright DanG, that's what I'm looking for! Thanks again.
Yeah, for big leaf maple, the difference is between $1,200/mbf for Select & Better, and $750 for #1 Shop. Now these are canuck bucks here, so don't get too excited. I know that I am getting burned on clears, because they don't pay any more than selects. I am looking for a buyer for my clears...
I heard tell of a grader (or a fellow who knew how to grade hardwood lumber :) ) who would, in the 50's, hire a helper and unload rail cars full of hardwood lumber, crosscut-trim some boards to a shorter length, reload it into another rail car and make good money (actually his living) doing it. Something about being able to buy rail cars of lumber and upgrade it 'in-transit', like drying in-transit.
I watched "inspectorwoody" grade lumber at their mill in Muscoda, WI and he would mark and send boards back for trimming if they could be upgraded by further trimming. That adds money to the mill owners' pockets. Also, its more evidence that those who saw logs, edge boards, and trim boards can make better decisions if they have some understanding of the lumber grades. Great guys to have on your team if sawing lumber.
But you gott know the grading rules-------If you cut a foot off of an 8 ft board, it automatically eliminates the possibility of it being FAS. If the only defect was on the end of the board, you change it from an 8' #1 to a 7' #1 unless they buy selects where you are located. They buy one face here rather than selects and they still have to be 8' or longer.
It sure pays to know the rules, not so much for being able to grade each board, but for being able to do a good job of edging and endtrimming. That way you can make the most of the given board that you have to work with.
Well I don't get paid any more for FAS than I do for select, so in theory I could mill everything as narrow as 4" without losing $$$. I will go through my pile before I take it to the buyer. The only real grade decision I have to make is between Select or lower grades.
Bro. Noble are you selling wholesale or retail?
Shamus
Are you talking just hardwood NHLA grades here?
Or maybe the softwood Factory and Shop lumber grades - ?
I was thinking hardwood initially, but then you mentioned #1 Shop, and made me wonder. :)
Not only is there end trimming, but there is also benefit in re-edging. If you have too much wane, your board will drop in grade. If you have a wide board, sometimes you make more by cutting it into 2 boards. One has the defect the other is a much better grade. But, you have to know your prices, and crunch some numbers before you start cutting and edging.
DanG
Will you please buy lumber from me? Especially the #2. :D
I also wondered about that #1 shop grade. Your bigleaf maple should follow the NHLA grade rules, but I know some West Coast sawmills that have made up their own grades. They're starting to use the NHLA grades, since there is a standard that everyone understands.
Yes, the buyer uses NHLA grades, I am also a bit confused by the #1 shop term. Basically their breakdown is Select & Better, #1 Shop, or Frame Grade, and that's all folks.
Quote from: IL Bull on November 01, 2005, 02:55:59 PM
Bro. Noble are you selling wholesale or retail?
wholesale
8) End trim and edge wisely!
Yes you can make money! I will look at the market report and find out the prices for the species we are cutting...
I than will make a table with the grades across the top and the surface measure along the side. I than calculate what each grade is worth at that surface measure. When that is done I can look and see how much I can cut off the end or edge and still make money!
In regards to that here is a little something that will be a quick guide:
5" wide 3' SM
6.5" wide 4' SM
8" wide 5' SM
9.5" wide 6' SM
10.5" wide 7' SM
Sometimes it is better to rip the board to a smaller surface meaure rather than cutting off the end. For us our buyers don't like a lot of 6' boards.
Now a good example I can think of is in Walnut. Please understand that the rules for Walnut are quite different than the standard rules.
Hopefully I will make this clear enough for everyone to understand ;)
In the standard rules if you have a board that is 6"w x 8'L with a knot right in the middle it is a #1 com. In Walnut if you have the same board it is an FAS ;D
Now if the above board has the knot say two foot in from the end (Walnut rules) it is a #1 com but in the 6 and 7' boards you defect grade. So if the knot is 1 1/4" in average diameter or less you have 1 defect. If you cut the above board back to a 7' you now have an FAS ;D
In some species the price difference between grades does not justify remanufacture. In that case you can leave more wane on the edge or other defects. It may also be necessary to edge or end trim for appereance purposes.
NHLA has an illustrated guide to the grading rules which is very useful.
I am also willing to work with anyone on site too. I know I am one that learns better when someone shows me rather than reading it.
Hope this helps a little.
Woody
In the past we dealt with a lumber broker that would up-grade as they bought. If they saw a board that'd grade better if cut back or re-edged, they'd mark it while on the grading chain and then buy it as such. We always came out a little shorter on our board feet than our raw figure but were more than happy with the grade distribution.
I was talking with our log broker the other day and he was getting cranked up about up-grading his lumber. Said it could mean as much as 38% more money by upgrading. (We do upgrade quite a bit but don't go nuts over it.) I told him that the broker we dealt with upgraded as he bought. He said it was not the case where he was marketing the lumber we sawed for him. Furthermore, they kiln dried all their lumber first and them up-graded it.
These are the only two experiences we've had with the way brokers grade lumber. What is the common practice?
Depends on the broker. Some buy it the way it comes off the truck. They then upgrade and seperate the grades, widths and lengths. They make more money by selling 10" and wider, for example. If you buy a lot of lumber, you can bleed the extras into another load.
We have one outfit that upgrades but doesn't cut. But, they mfg panels and can use some of those units that would normally go into the chipper.
Anyone who is manufacturing lumber to sell would benefit from a lumber grading short course. In my part of the state there is a class once or twice a year. You attend class for three to five days, learning the basics of measuring lumber and the grading rules. Our area has mostly hardwoods so our classes are for the NHLA rules. This class does not automatically make you a full-time, professional grader. It does though give you the basics so you can make informed decisions when cutting lumber. As the above examples show, you can upgrade a board and increase it's value by edging or trimming.
I have attended two of these short courses and have studied the NHLA rulebook. I'm not the fastest grader, as I don't do it everyday, but most of my customers accept my grade. I'd like to go to the Memphis school, but can't find the time, so the occasional short course has to do.
One thing that always amazes me when I visit other commercial mills is how many of the people in the mill making lumber don't have a clue about any of the grading rules. I was in a mill once where the edgerman was edging off all the wane and extra half inch or so of wood on each side. In high value cherry he was throwing three dollars of good wood into the chipper on every board. The mill owner/sawyer, who doesn't know a thing either about grading lumber, couldn't figure out why the timber sales he bought didn't scale out like they should. He was getting an underun on all the logs he sawed, due to the way he and his crew cut wood. A three day short course on lumber grading for his whole crew would pay for itself in a couple of days, but he figures he too busy sawing to learn about the product he's making. It would be like a baker not knowing how to count to twelve and throwing twenty cookies in every dozen.
Frickman
Any idea when that course in Memphis is offered? I might be able to make that one.
Three times a year, the last time I checked. It's thirteen weeks long, and held at the NHLA headquarters. I've visited it, and they have an excellent facility. The program is run similar to a high-school vo-tech class, with both classroom instruction and hands on practice in a grading shed. I just can't shut the business down for three months to attend.
Mary has attended their short course on lumber grading and log grading. She loved it. She would – being of an accounting mind anyway. smiley_scholar
I read the book :P
I looked at the pictures in the book and saw the movie ;D
Where does a guy find a broker? ???
Thirteen weeks :o! I was hoping for 3 - 5 days :)
Quote from: IL Bull on November 02, 2005, 08:38:23 AM
Where does a guy find a broker? ???
We sell to North Pacific. You might find out from their website where they buy. We also have several other buyers in our area, but the only one that buys in other areas is Bruce Flooring. I'm shure they have a website too.
Ask at the comercial mills in your area. Most of them will be glad to give you marketing advice.
Since my only decision is whether a board is Select or less than Select, I don't need to know much, for now about grading, but I would love to spend some time with someone that has it figured out.
I am milling with a circle mill, so re-edging is something I only do begrudgingly. Its not too hard I guess, just seems to be a PITA. I either dog the to-be-edged boards between a couple of 4x4s, or just tack it to the last slab. I will be trimming the ends off of a goodly portion of this load. It's only about 2,500 bd ft, but its a start. Can't haul much more than that without hiring it out.
Thanks Bro. Noble. I'm getting quite a stack of wood and would like to convert some into cash.
Bro. Noble,
When you talk about a broker, are you talking about a middle man? Like selling to a man in an office that buys our lumber and has a trucker come pick it up and sells to someone else. Or are you selling to a flooring or furniture manufactor.
I sell some to flooring companies like Armstrong but I do it direct and they will take my small loads (500 to 1000 bdft.) I talked to a "broker" on the phone once, but he wanted a semitruck load at a time. By the time I accumalated that much it would be stained if I left it dead stacked since I cut mostly ties and pallet stuff and then try to sell my side boards.
I certainly would like some direction here if I am going about this wrong.
Thanks,
Jeff
Bro Noble.
Do you sell them green wood or kiln dried wood? What grades to the buy?
Thanks
Ron
We have sold to three different buyers over the years. All of them bought green lumber in any quantity that their sellers delivered. The first place dried everything and sold all of it to various manufacturers. Next we sold to Bruce flooring (now Armstrong). They used the lower grades and sold the higher grades. North Pacific sells the lower grades to flooring manufacturers and dries the higher grades and sells it to end users all over the world.
Each of these places bought FAS through 3B. In this area they buy 'one face' (pay the same as FAS) but not select. We usually just sell oak and occasionally walnut, but have sold hickory, cherry, and ash. Bruce flooring only buys oak.
We live too far from a populated area to try to sell retail, and don't have the time or interest to try to dry and do any sort of value added enterprise. Our main reason for having a sawmill is to do a better job of marketing our own timber. Everyone's situation is different and I sure wouldn't say that everyond should sell through a middleman.
The 14 week course in Memphis is an awesome experience! It is very tough. The first month I was down there I went to school and than came home and studied. After that we were able to break away and enjoy Memphis such as Beale Street, Grace Land etc. etc.
You meet so many neat people who are taking the class for so many different reasons.
Gadget
In these parts if the defect is in the last foot of the board it does not count. So there is no advantage to cutting it off. No board less then 6" wide can grade better then 1C so watch how you saw your oak. Boards shorter then 8' are no better then 1C.
How you buck the logs will make more differance then any thing. I buy whole tree most of the time and have learned the rules on lumber. Where I turn knots when sawing and where I buck the logs improve the most grade. I buck logs to make the most lumber that will sell. Longer logs give more room to get rid of defects. I saw alot of 12 ft oak logs but only sell 8 ft ties and square fire wood. In a 12 ft board you may be able to chop out a knot or trim down some and keep your grade. I try to cut out my defects or move them to the end of the board when I buck the log.
I always tell loggers that I can only saw as good as they can buck. Bucking logs makes more money than almost any other part of the operation. Its just hard to convince loggers of that.
Bucking logs makes more money than almost any other part of the operation. Its just hard to convince loggers of that.
Ain't that the truth.