swing blade sawmill manufacturers

[aom]

I can think of 5 makes of swing mill,
eco saw
forestor
lucas
peterson
brand x
personally I couldnt give a 5$%@ as to who invented what, or who patented it first, but what I can see is that all makes have some good points and some not so good.But I can seecertain areas where all can be improved. I own and operate a peterson 10" WPF saw alongside various bandsaws at my mill.
Most of the time the peterson mills at a fixed site, only rarely do I go out on site, as I prefere to use my existing log and timber handling machinery and save my back rather than travelling to mill on site without the extra machine help. As such after 3 days milling the shavings/sawdust is already fouling the guide rails, no doubt people will tell me that I could avoid this problem by using an eco saw/ forestor/lucas or peterson ATS, due to the higher guide rails, but in reality by using those brands I would only delay the problem.
So all you swing blade makers how about designing an extraction system, so that instead of having the shavings spread out over a vast area, they can be directed or extracted in a certain way so that firstly the shavings are not spread all over the place and secandly the shavings are extracted to a certain point thus considerably reducing the downtime of clearing up the vast amounts of shavings. Potentially the swing blade principle could be developed into a highly effecient automated mill, Peterson has done some work in this field, but without effecient waste removal, such automated mills have limited success on fixed milling sites. Once this problem has been worked out perhaps the mill makers can look at the current systems of sawn timber removal.
So here is the challenge to all swing mill makers, how about producing improved chip extraction/ containment systems.
regards AOM

[Tom]

aom,

I've noticed that the double bladed saws spred sawdust too.  If I had one, just a dream, and it was a stationary operation, I think I could think of a way to remedy that problem.  Maybe setting the mill up off of the ground on an expanded metal  or grating base to allow the sawdust to pass through.

I saw a video of an operation like that in Texas where there was a conveyor underneath a grate floor.  The sawdust was moved to the end of the building where an occassional pass with a small tractor and box blade got rid of it.

I wonder if a large fan might help.  All you need to do is get the sawdust outside of the rails, right? 

Does the swingblade configuration match a big miter saw?   Maybe a shop vac could be attached.

I watched the Peterson crew saw for 3 days at Moultrie with no appreciable clean-up and there didn't seem to be a problem with operating the saw.  Wouldn't an occassional clean-up of the area work?   I know it would be easier if it were all in one place, but, is it really a big problem?

[doublecut]

And very soon "The D&L swing blade "
We are working on that very thing right now. Will keep you informed as we progress
doublecut

[NZJake]

Gidday aom, very good points.

First off, if your worried about sawdust on your rails maybe consider hi/low options (sawdust should only extract to the left unless you are doing regular doublecuts), if your machine is a newer 10" it should have skirting located on both sides of the track with sawdust rail scrapers?

By far the simplest invention for sawdust build up is a slightly curved alloy flat. Height 400mm, width 600mm, thickness 3mm. Coming from the centre of the concave side, attach a normal shovel handle. The handle may reach up at 20 degrees.

The problem with shovels is that when your trying to stick the sawdust it gives back so much resistance, it doesnt want to slide through because of the chips. This configuration will drag back the sawdust efficiently with one big swipe to a designated pile.

We have an operator further down from us where they are using our fully automated saw, they have added a simple sock type sawdust sheath for the vertical guard, this way sawdust gets directed more or less to the left and down, this focuses more in line to where the horizontal sawdust goes. They also have a net that spans the length of the high track also deflecting sawdust to the ground. From that point they simply use there loader to collect the sawdust every once in a while, you could simply place a sawdust chain inline at the bottom of the hightrack powered by a small motor, clearing as you saw.

The problems with a hose type extraction unit is that you just can not collect most of the sawdust from the horizontal blade. The bottom of the blade must remain clear and flush to the log. I have seen a company try to do this at a show, at the end of the day they were still clearing the left over sawdust just like us. A bigger problem at the end of the day is the cost to the sawyer for such a system that 'almost' gets all the sawdust.

An innovative example is to maybe come up with a similar system that these guys down south come up with? An alternative also is to purchase an off the shelf extraction system where you can simply suck up all the sawdust every now and then.

[Fla._Deadheader]

By far the simplest invention for sawdust build up is a slightly curved alloy flat. Height 400mm, width 600mm, thickness 3mm. Coming from the centre of the concave side, attach a normal shovel handle. The handle may reach up at 20 degrees

  Good one Jake  8) :D :D :D

[lawyer_sawyer]

I would be interested to see what D&L are designing.  If they could throw even a rough sketch on the page that would be great.  I was just at their site today and saw it mentioned but nothing else...just enough to get me curious what it will be like.

this could sound dumb but since you already throwing the handle when you are at the end of each cut maybe it would be possible to create a system that collected the chips and then when you were at the end of the cut to dump them when you "swing" the handle to go the other direction.  This would at least get it so that you have a pile at one end rather than a long line of chips all along the track.

I know this would creat a bigger weight problem but maybe it would work.  If it is feaible I give the idea to the world and whoever uses it just please give me a free saw  ;D

[Timburr]

Hello Mr. Morgan.

Even with a Lucas, sawdust build-up will impede rail lowering, after hard milling for just a couple of days. Grunting with a shovel soon became out of flavour fast. So the remedy to the query was to get a 'pedestrian tractor' with a dozer blade.

I bought an old Mayfield very cheap, locally (several decades older than myself) as a non-runner. Spent a couple of hours getting it operational. It now starts first kick EVERY time 8) A clip-on dozer blade was made and fitted. Just wind the Lucas right up and drive around blading the sawdust over the edge.....I have the mill set up on a landscaped yard, on a steep slope, in the wood. It'll take about 1000 year for the sawdust mountain to reach the brook ;D

It takes me less than 5 mins. to clear the sawdust, without the strain. I spend more time watering and fueling the mill.

I think you may be able to use a similar system, but you would have to blade the sawdust out of the end of a WPF

Cheers Tim

[Part_Timer]

I just take and lay a tarp down on the ground either under the whole mill on a job site or just between the end stands at home.

On the job site I pull the mill down and load it then pull the tarp edges up and it's all contained in one spot for the most part and easy to shove up off the tarp.

at home I pull the tarp to the burn pile with the lawn tractor.

Not real high tech but it works

As to a unique board remover 

http://www.petersonsawmills.com/mill_ops_video_asm5b.htm

doesn't get much easier than that

[DanG]

As Tom noted, these multi-blade mills like I have sling a whole bunch of sawdust around.  I use a  leaf blower to blast it off the mill bed, then pick it up with the loader when it builds up enough to be in the way.  I can cut about 500 bf before I need to blow it off, then it only takes about 5 minutes and very little effort.

[woodbowl]

I can think of 5 makes of swing mill,
eco saw
forestor
lucas
peterson
brand x

Forester ?? ?? ??  Who makes the "Forestor" Forester  Can't find it anywhere on the web.

[Dank11]

Hey!
I found this site
http://www.sawsgroup.co.uk/forestor-pilous/html/swivel.html
but tried to send an E-mail and it was returned "undeliverable"
looks the same as the others
I also found this one
but didn't get any reply when asking for info
LMk if you find any thing out
Thanks!

[Dank11]

Hey!
oops
here's the other link

Long URL fixed by admins
thanks!

[aom]

NZ Jake,
with regard to the hi/lo setup, I know of several operators that have reverted back to standard rails from using hi/lo's due to greater flexing of hi/lo's as oposed to standard rails.
Thus not the answer.
With regard to shoveling vast amount of sawdust, I tend to use a very old stone fork, as it is far easier to use than a shovel and carries more sawdust.
So c'mon Jake, how about using the old grey matter and even developing a way of controling the chips instead of them being spread over a large area[ and not just Jake, all other manufacturersas well]
I have been toying with the idea of having two levels of concrete, the mill situated on the highest, and when the sawdust on the lower level reaches a certain height, push the loader bucket along it to pile up the sawdust in some kind of stockpile????
With regard to forestor contact www.forestor.co.uk , I have been led to believe by some millers that have operated them that they are similar in design to Lucas, but tend to be of better build quality, but they seem to be considerably more expensive.
So are any other manufacturers willing to improve on the current swing blade designs, or are they just happy to have the regular 'My mill is better than yours debate' or' We were the first to.........debate'
It will be interesting to see if any of the swingblade manufacturers will take note of comments from users of their mills.
Its at times like this that I think its a pity swing blade Andy from Ireland is no longer milling with his Lucas and stiring up a few hornets nests with his sharp wit. Good to rattle a few cages now and again.
 

[Tom]

Actually, with as much fun as you're having trying to get a confrontation going, just realize that we don't run that kind of Forum.  The members know it and the sponsors know it too. 

The Sponsors on this site do listen to members and have proved it over and over.   The members have appreciated their professionalism without their assailing one another, too.

Andy never did ruffle feathers here.  He fit in real good.  We liked him and his adventures too.  To bad he had to sell his mill, but, we still visit from time to time.

As far as a Debate between manufacturers, I don't think that this the fitting venue.

[Jeff]

Amen.

[Part_Timer]

Hay Jake

When your done solving that pesky saw dust issue Kate was wondering if you could figure out a lunch warmer attachment for the ATS.  It is just Dang inconveniant for her to bring lunch out to us on the job site.  Sure would be nice not to interupt her day.    : : : : ;D

Thanks in advance

Tom and Kate

[Ianab]

Code Select Expand

So are any other manufacturers willing to improve on the current swing blade designs

I think thats what Jake does do every day.
Well at least every time I see him at the Fieldays he has some new model or feature thats better or faster than before. (Some may use the word obsession)

Personally I can't think of any easy way to improve the sawdust collection, well not without making the mill much heavier and less versatile.

As others have said the feedback (both positive and negative) gets read by the mill manufactures and I'm sure that it gets taken into account as the mills are re-designed.

Cheers

Ian

[Hammy]

Thanks for that Tom & Ian, I agree.

Without wanting to drag this thread on any longer than is needed, I did feel we needed to clarify a few things from this discussion.

It is proven that our Hi/Lo track system actually provides greater stability, providing the diagonal bracings are used. These telescopic braces attach to each upright & are pegged into the ground. When this is set up, you create a triangular rigidity effect which significantly reduces sideways movement. Therefore this upgrade not only enables logs to be rolled underneth for easy loading & enables the track to be kept clear of sawdust build up, but it also greatly assists to reduce sideways sway.

The other point to note is this particluar mill could very well be an older model that didn't have the cross member running from end frame to end frame. This is a standard feature on all WPF models now but will not be found on some older versions. Again this crossmember acts as further bracing & stability.

Thanks.

[Minnesota_boy]

When your done solving that pesky saw dust issue Kate was wondering if you could figure out a lunch warmer attachment for the ATS.  It is just Dang inconveniant for her to bring lunch out to us on the job site.  Sure would be nice not to interupt her day.

If you have a 12 volt battery on that ATS, I have the answer for you.  I bought a "Lunchbox oven" that plugs into the cigarette lighter outlet on your truck, but you can easily add an outler to the mill.  I take some leftovers from home and put them in the lunchbox oven at my 10:00 o'clock break and they are piping hot at noon.  Eggrolls work real well as do casseroles, lasagna, etc.  The little oven gets up to 350 degrees F. and its addition to my tools sure makes for a nice lunch.  I got mine at the local truck stop.

[Part_Timer]

Minnesota_boy

THat is cool.  I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about though.  One of the guys who helps sometimes wants me to weld up a small box with a lid and mount it to the muffler support.  It should work just fine.  the harder we saw the hotter lunch gets

[DanG]

Truck stops also sell them little 'lectric coolers....sorta like a miniature beergerator. ;D

As far as sawdust handling goes, it's pretty much every man for himself, no matter what type of mill you have.  For the portable guys, it isn't much of an issue.  If you're stationary, it's a big issue, but it is something to be solved by the sawmill owner.  If you're not innovative enough to come up with a solution over a period of time, then you might want to think about a different line of work.

[crtreedude]

Speaking as a Engineer - I think it is a good idea not to add to much to the saws. Afterall, removing sawdust isn't rocket science given that the usual suspects here can suggest a bunch of solutions.  ;)

No one solution may be the best for all - so it is better to leave it up to the creativity of the owners.

Just to jump on a soapbox for a bit (small soapbox - dove soap I think), Microsoft Office has so MANY of these add ons that we all have to keep upgrading hardward to use it- I have switched to OpenOffice instead because it gives me what I need.

More gadgets, more complexity, more weight, more failures.

If you really need a feature, build it your self - if it really is great, you might actually have a product. But since the majority of swing blades probably are not stationary - adding it as a feature that adds weight (almost have to) doesn't seem to be a good idea.

[crtreedude]

And I do notice we are barely into our second page and we have diverted to food...

Nothing holds the attention of sawyers like food - de verdad?

[aom]

Tom
Please be assured, that just stirring fo fun is not one of my pastimes, life is far too short for that kind of nonsense.
Further creating contention between makers and visitors to the forum is not for me.
My original comments  are towards all makers of swing blade mills. My own experience is with three of the brands mentioned, but what I have seen of the publicity of the other machines, all five types have certain similar areas of possible/potentially areas of improvement. Hence that is why I mentioned the work involved with chip clearance. This although of limited importance to those that operate bandsaws or use swing mills on a hobby/or part time basis, it is a serious problem for those that run swingmills between 5-6 days per week, and 9-10 hrs a day especially if they are cutting 1" thick boards, in these instances the chip clearance forms a considerable downtime.
The many benefits of using a swingmill are lessened considerably due to this downtime.
This perhaps is not a matter for discussion on the forum, but nevertheless it is a relavant matter for all manufacturers of swing blades to look at, as waste handling is very often an overlooked factor in mills which can make or brake them.

[Opiki]

I agree with with AOM.
I run a Mahoe double twin blade saw and sawdust removal is a huge problem especially when you cut on one site for a long period of time.
I like others do not look forward to the extra labour that is required in removing large quantities of sawdust on a regular basis.
I feel that this post started with a suggestion that hopefully manufacturers look at extra ways to improve on what they have to make it easier on those that use their machines and keep them employed, I see nothing wrong with this and even applaude the suggestion.
With reading through the vast quantities of previous postings there are a lot of threads regarding MOds and so forth this question is correctly aimed at manufacturers regardless of who sponsors who, and who it might offend or not.........

[Ernie]

I get a lot of sawdust from my twin-blade Rimu.  Disposal is no problem.  i have a friend who rears calves and takes it away in the back of his ute (pickup) regularly

[Jeff]

This perhaps is not a matter for discussion on the forum, but nevertheless it is a relavant matter for all manufacturers of swing blades to look at, as waste handling is very often an overlooked factor in mills which can make or brake them.

In my opinion, most of these mills are meant to be portable mills. When you get done sawing, you move the mill and leave the waste. PERFECTION

With reading through the vast quantities of previous postings there are a lot of threads regarding MOds and so forth this question is correctly aimed at manufacturers regardless of who sponsors who, and who it might offend or not.........

You are going to need to rethink that for posting on this forum.  Sponsors pay my bills and part of the obligations I require of myself is to make sure that they are NOT offended. You can send them privately any information you wish, but no one will use the open forums to "offend" anyone. Sponsor or not.  We have went many years now using that as one of our guidelines and believe me, it will not change.

Another thought on this. I have been a sawyer all my working life in big commercial mills. Mills that saw 30,000 feet of lumber a day. You want to see sawdust?  It goes out by the semi loads. Slabs? they are chipped and go out by the semi load., Bark? All our logs are debarked leaving mountains of the stuff, removed by the semi load.

I have ran several mills in those years, all built to saw huge amounts of lumber leaving mountains of sawdust.  None of them, NOT ONE, incorporated a waste removal "System" within the manufacture of the mills. Waste removal is always the job taken care of by add on equipment, usually built by a totally different manufacturer, and careful setup and planning and construction of the mill work site or building, not the mill.

[Tom]

AOM
The suggestion for a mod doesn't hurt anything if done compassionately or directed to the forum members in open conversation for suggestions on the fabrication of a device.  It's the intimation of "Debate" directed at manufacturers that we don't allow.   I'm sure the comments were in fun to make an interesting post but the connotations have ramifications far beyond the friendly capacity of the forum.  Nobody can play the game if they don't know the rules.  That's just one of the rules.  We are not only a "family" site but non-confrontational as well. 


Opiki,
A little time around this forum will show you that we aren't a society that tries to put anyone on the carpet.  Our member conversation is between members.  Seldom do we converse with an "entity", especially one that has no spokesperson here.  As members we go out of our way to keep from hurting the feelings of other members, many of whom happen to be employees of the major mill manufacturers.  We don't look for 'buttons' to push nor arguments.  We are really a pretty laid back bunch of guys.  We do have rules though, some written and some not.  Picture the forum as a bunch sitting around the pot-bellied-stove of a country store and you will get a better idea of what the membership is like and how we handle ourselves.  The suggestion is OK.  The intent to stir up a hornet's nest isn't.

Now, that is what brought an administrator's reply and it will again and again.  It's the only way to keep the forum on track and not allow it to turn into the same Maelstrom as some of the other forums. 

[HORSELOGGER]

You know, this thread has got me thinkin... I dont want to name any names, so lets just say ALL manufacturers should start doin some engineering on a problem I have with my mill in particular, but I have talked with many other portable millers with similar problems. It seems that after I have been sawing for the better part of a day, my fuel tank is almost empty and has to be topped up before I can continue. And even though I top it up , the next day it happens again.  : I would think the manufacturers would want to get to work and solve this problem. I am tired of having to re-fuel my mill so often. And to make matters worse ... the more I saw, the more I have to re-fuel.  :'(

[Tom]

Horse logger,

I just got an email from Muhammed Amdegasseousone and he suggests that he can hook you up to a potentially bottomless fuel line connected directly to one of his wells in Nigeria.  But, he needs your credit card number and checking account number to proceed.  :D

[doublecut]

Horselogger
Actually i have a guy that works for me that i will give you for free that can power the mill for as long as you need it to run.
I will pay the freight.
doublecut

[crtreedude]

Speaking of waste and this comment is not meant as a solution to the problem. One of the things I like about the portable sawmill is this aspect - cut where you drop the tree and leave the waste there. It will decompose just fine there and return to the soil. Haul all the logs to the sawmill and you have the fuel you waste getting them there AND the waste disposal.

Then, you just haul back the boards that you want, not the bark and sawdust that you have to get rid of.

I would think this would be an additional selling point when cutting in a forest for someone - you are leaving most the nutrients in the forest.

Sometimes something is a problem because you are using perhaps how it wasn't designed.

[HORSELOGGER]

Tom.. i heard from Muhammed.. He wants to buy my mill for 50K and send me a check for 250k ( seems he just made a deal selling some baby camels to a zoo) then have me send him a certified check for the diference. After he gets the check from me , he will send his agent after the mill. Wow , I am so excited 8) Does this sound good to you ???


Doublecut... Uh... No thanks, that is a generous offer, but with the horses and all, that kind of gas is in abundance. There is a wind farm just starting up north of me, they might be interested. Otherwise, you could buy him a new work uniform consisting of an old deep sea diving suit, complete with helmet, in which he could thouroghly enjoy his own company.


CR...In some places leaving all the waste behind would be desirable I suppose, but here we tend to saw in farm fields and pastures next to the timber when we saw on site, so the mess isnt always wanted. Also because we have a good fire wood market, slabs are not a problem but a resource. I also have no problem trading or selling my sawdust and planer shavings to farmers and we also use alot in our horse yard.

[crtreedude]

Yes, but if that is the case - you aren't as worried about removal since you have a market for it...  ;)

[HORSELOGGER]

Yes, but my initial tongue in cheek response was due to my not understanding the issue to be so big of a deal, I mean making sawdust Is as basic an issue as fueling the mill. Also , how does leaving a huge pile of sawdust add anything back to the forest floor?Or a pile of slab wood? I have read somewhere that the vast majority of nutrients added to the forest floor come from the leaves and small twigs that the trees drop. That makes more sense, as they cover the entire floor, not just a pile here or there that are too deep for anything to sprout or grow in.

[Swing_blade_Andy]

A little bird landed on my window and sang a little song....

Tweeet tweeet... log on log on and chat today
for its time to say hello and be heard
don't be absent from the fray
to stay away is just absurd...

Then she flew away. HHHMM (pause)

Just what could it be that I have been absent from for so long
Well FF for one. So I'm here and fancy that
A thread close to my heart.

Well I have read the contributions to this thread and I agree with most of them.
Here is a great bunch of guys who taught me a great deal about milling
about wood, and a bit about people helping each other just because they can.

I think that AOM is raising a genuine concern.. I share that concern.
Jeff and Tom are naturally wanting to keep the going ..easy, I share that habit.

So what have I to contribute....?

Well even though I have sold my mill I am still passionate about wood, milling and the job of the miller. I am more passionate about new product development however. And whereas this is surely not a place for a donnybrook, barny or a slang or two, I believe that it could be the right place for joining minds to solve problems which will make the life and the work of a miller both more productive and above all, safer.

I am witness to a number of changes in the swing blade industry, and some of which I am happy to say, I believe to be as a result of debate on this and other forums where users had the opportunity to raise issues where their experiences caused concern. Solutions have been proposed by those with similar interest and the whole business has benefited.

Rather than levelling criticism at any product, I would say that I believe that, it is the obligation of many manufacture to not only listen to the concerns of the users but also to be constantly trying to evolve and develop better solutions to user problems.


This is an industry which has a long history of work related injury. A history which I am overjoyed to say has been addressed so that now standards are in place for safety and safe work practices. I am sure that this would not have happened without pressure from below.

For improvements in technology, I have offered more than one idea to manufactures in this category for developments in their technology but for their own reasons these have gone nowhere. However that this their privilege but it is also my habit to continue to think about how things could be better.

I still feel it is behoven to all in the industry never to rest on the matter of development, for trees are a renewable resource and will be here for a long time. People who choose this life are to be protected against all possible misfortune, both personnel injury and business calamity. From personal experience it is a work related injury that has forced my retirement from the industry I loved. I pay that price every day.

I urge you all keep asking questions, finding good ideas and offering them to those who might develop them, for we will all benefit in the end. If they are not received it does not necessarily mean that the ideas are not good but just that it may be the time is not right.

Given this and other comments I rest to the side, little to the left but still glancing right sometimes.

Cheers
Good luck
Andrew

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Good to hear from ya, Andy ;D  Any new projects in the works ???

[crtreedude]

Not sure, all I know is that getting rid of large mounds of waste can be a problem - if you have a market - no problem, but otherwise, just piles and piles of sawdust can be an issue - I definitely see it down here and the run-off isn't very good for the streams.

[DanG]

Great post, Andrew! 8) 8)  Stop by a bit more often, wouldya?

[doublecut]

With a little bit of extra equipment the sawdust can be collected for resale or for fuels. But it all cost money. The system we are working on is for large stationary milling set ups.
I agree with jeff that when we had our big mills the manufacture never supplied the auxilary equipment for the waste removal.
Now this would be for the static or stationary set ups. Where you are portable as crtreedude has mentioned then move the mill or you are not there long enough to matter. So as a portable milling situation i don't see it to be a problem. Nothing that a shovel won't fix while one is finishing the job.
But stationary set ups there are solutions to help with the clean up.
We have built conveyor systems. ANd we are working with a vacuum system now.
But to contain it at the saw is very difficult on a swing blade mill. It is easier to figure out a solution for the sawdust where it lays. But how much does a person spend on this, when the simplist solution i found to work is a gas driven leaf blower for the small operator or portable milling system. One that will vacuum as well as blow.Works for us and many others i know.
But it all depends on how much you would like to spend? Bottom line is this developement doesn't come free. And when a solution is found it sometimes becomes so exspensive it can't be sold as no  one will buy it for their little operation. Can't justify it.
So try the gas driven vacumm /blower system it works really good and it is economical to purchase.

doublecut

[brdmkr]

I would bet that it would not be too hard to rig up a large dust collection system that dumps saw dust into a trailer.  Perhaps having a carriage on a rail above the mill that moves along with the saw carriage?

[DanG]

I can't envision anything that would attach to the saw that wouldn't be in the way of sawing.  Remember those first logs we sawed on your lawn, Mike? (Yeah, RIGHT, like you'd forget, eh?)  I thought that tarp you put down did a pretty good job of controlling the mess.

Last year, before I put the loader on the tractor, I looked at a vac rig at Home Cheapo that was built by Troybilt.  It was a large enclosed dump wagon with a big fan that was driven by an 8 horse engine.  It looked like it would do the job nicely for about a thousand bucks.  Just checked their website and it isn't there any more. ???

For about the same money, you could probably find a used loader for your tractor that would solve this problem and a lot more, too. ;D

[aom]

No doubt it will take someone, with greater knowledge than myself to solve this one. As far as we are concerned, the mill does not produce waste???? we sell sawn timber, we sell sawdust and we process all slabs for firewood, hence no waste. But what we need is a simple system to control the sawdust.
As mentioned earlier about a fan to suck all the sawdust away, we already use such a system with our joinery shop, it works well and blows all the dust etc into a silo, but having a pipe drag along the 30+ft we regularly cut, I dont know?
I've noticed on post peeling machines here that they tend to blow the peelings in quite a controled and contained way, although bark peelings are very different to sawdust, but such peelers use a circulardisc with inserted blades, so I would guess that the peelings are expelled from the peeler, following the same pattern as sawdust/chips are expelled from a swing mill. the main difference between the two machines is that peelers tend to have longer extraction chutes, could this be a simple answer[low cost low maintenance]
An even further development of the chute, could it be movable, just like some of those directable thrust cones on jet engines.
Or even two newly designed chutes, one for the horizontal, and one for the vertical, but of a design which ensures the sawdust goes where I want it to go, clear from the mill, so that the loader can just blade it to the chip store.
As the mill has not too long passed its warranty period, I am somewhat cautious as to start cutting bits off and welding new bits on, hence the original plea to manufacturers

[brdmkr]

The tarp did do a decent job.  I have been thining about making a PVC frame for a tarp that would just hook on to catch sawdust.  Once it gets filled, I could just roll it up and put down another.  I think it would be a nice feature to have if you were sawing in someone's yard.

Dang, I think in a stationary setting, you could rig a vacume hose on a rail above the mill.  A flex hose run to the chute of the mill would catch much, but not all of the sawdust.  It would be a visual bother, but I don't think it would actually get in the way of mill operation.  I suppose this could be a topic for when we finish off that pecan. 

[Swing_blade_Andy]

In addition to those ideas proposed here which I think is worthy of examination, I have in the past proposed the following:

Scragg mill attachment – for those postes which are too small to mill
Radial sawing attachment – to produce true quarter sawn lumber for say, siding
Dogging system – no need to explain
Easy system to load the powerhead onto a trailer with one man without busting a valve
Tooth aligment and grinding jig- accuracy is paramount
An apparatus for sawing extra big logs – I mean bigger than 2 meters diameter
Alignment laser - for preparing the cut in advance
New material for the lifting chains - that doesn't rust
Roof rack for packing – it's a bother every time to have to tie on
Apparatus for using the mill as a planning table – making slabs flat


There were a few more as I recall. But my success so far is but one change of materials for a heat shield from galvanized steel to stainless steel. Sad.

So to add to the comments that I offered as an introduction to this thread I would like to elaborate on the manufacturer/user relationship.

I believe that the manufacturers have an obligation to listen and learn from their client base. They are in fact in business to serve their client base as if they do not then they will soon no longer be in business. Hence, as a offer this thread is preempting what I would think should have been a natural topic proposed by a manufacturer or two. But I have never seen it.

Why is it for example that Users care more about giving feed back than manufacturers about receiving it. In the 5 years I have been using the Forum I have not read (although I did not read them all by any means) any thread from a manufacture asking for advice regarding Research and development. I have not participated in any polls or be asked to evaluate any proposed development in advance of its release. That's not a good sign.

If this were another industry, companies like say Levi's or Colgate Palmolive, Morgan Motor works, Chemigem Pool controls: they are all consumer driven. They all look outward toward the uses to which their clients put their machine/product – and then they adapt. They are sensitive to the changing needs of the business their clients are in rather than the contrary which is pursuing the business that they think they are in. It very often not the same thing.

If I were to ask any mobile miller I know what business he/she thought that he/she was in, then they would probably answer "putting food on the table – any way they can". If the topic is pursued I would suggest that the miller would be in the 'adaptable wood business'; where wood is being adapted to suit any buyers special needs, time frame or budget. There is more to this but I'll leave it there for the moment because I want to get on.

The result is that Mill buyers are looking for a machine which is adaptable. One which can adapt to an almost infinite variety of different circumstances and outcomes. Is it therefore up to the client or the manufacturer to make this possible. I don't know, I thinks its both, it's a partnership. The manufacturer needs to recognize the wealth of brain power, design and testing capability which available usually free from their clients – here amogst other places. And then use it, to make things better.

Here is just such an opportunity... I would be sad to see that it might not be seen, or heard or be regarded as worthless. 

To the left but a bit right

Andrew

[crtreedude]

Hi Swing Blade Andy,

There are nitches for everything and perhaps I am wrong, but the nitch for the swingblades is inexpensive and portable. Not as inexpensive as the smallest bandsaw - but definitely cheaper than the larger hydralic ones.

Most of these things can be whipped up by someone knowledgable - in fact, a swing blade can be made by someone who is good with tools.

The problem is, unless there is a significant market for an add-on, the research and development will kill you. Unlike when I whip something together - they have to cover engineering costs (I assume for example they pay Jake SOMETHING), testing, safety, marketing, etc. Unless you have something that is going to be popular (like a slabbing attachment) it probably won't be worth it.

The other reason why you won't normally see it on a forum is that once someone has a good idea - it is off to the races. New features are a way to capture more market - but if everyone has the feature, you really didn't gain in the race. You might still have to have it, but it won't win you as much. Notice the Petersons really went into the automated mill. I suspect they did a lot of talking around - but not on a public forum - before they started. Once they got ahead enough, they started to talk it up - or perhaps Jake just couldn't control himself anymore.

I do think some of these are good ideas - perhaps one of the Swingblade operators should offer YOU a job... ;-)

Usually market research is done quietly - the manufactors many behave on the Forestry Forum because of the firm hand of Jeff - but it doesn't mean they are friends.   ;) They are in competition and to invite people to share ideas that perhaps you are already developing for the whole world to see is not a very good strategy.  It is a wonderful idea between friends - but these companies do have to make a living.

If you see one of these large companies doing this that you mentioned, I would be very interested. Normally they have numbers you call with your ideas - they love ideas - but not to share with competitors.

just my dos colones

Fred

[HORSELOGGER]

Fred... I believe you are right on the money.


Andy.. Hows things???Remember we "met" ( on the web) about 5 years or so ago, when we both were newer Lucas mill owners? Over time I sold mine and became a Peterson owner. I will say that I think (this all my own opinion) that the approach to profit via manufacturing sawmills is very diferent from the 2 companies. It seems to me that the Lucas sawmill has really changed very little over the years , while Petersons has been quite innovative. I can personally point to 2 changes on the WPF mills that I gave input to the factory on as improvments. One was a direct suggestion, the other was a solution arrived at by Petersons after some questioning by me and possibly others about a certain way the mill was made. I think Lucas makes a mill that is easily "mass" produced, while the Peterson is more readily customized at the time of order. Look at the eco saw. It is another approach, very diferent than the others. Look at the Brand X ... another very diferent approach, combining a band mill 4 post system and bed, along with a dogging system. Look at the recent history of D&L double cut mills. A fresh and innovative approach to the older" mobile dimension/ Mighty Mite " saw style that is vastly improved over both of them. ( again, my opinion) I know of a smaller inventor type in Canada , working on swing type automated mill. D&L has just announced on their board some new models. To say that there is no innovation or response to the market is not right in my opinion. While it may not be that one manufacturer is responding to every idea that you need, we all have to remember that they are trying to make a general tool to be used all over the world. What would be slick for me in the midwest US , might be useless somewhere else.One thing I have obseved in the wood processing business is, that it is full of creative  and clever people, able to make do and adapt equipment to their own operations. I dont believe there is a mill out there that will be "ideal" for every sawing application that can be thought of.

[Part_Timer]

Andy


The first post I made was fairly sarcastic because I just did not believe that this thread would actually go anywhere. Well now it has so I wrote to Peterson's to get permission to tell my story and prove you wrong.
   I purchased my Peterson in July and received 2 phone calls and an email from them to make sure I received it and that everything was in the crate.   I set it up and started cutting logs with no problem.  About a month later I was looking at their web site and found the Micro Kerf blades and called to find out about them.  I had some cherry and wanted the maximum out of it.  After a short talk I was informed that they would not sell one to me because they had not had much luck with them on the ATS and did not want me to have something that was not a sure thing.

   I told Rex that that was ok I still had the band mill and that I would just cut the cherry on it and said that if they ever got it working to let me know. ;D  I also told them that if they were willing I would try one and if it worked I'd buy it and if not I'd send it back.  Before the end of the night I had an email from their R&D department wanting dimensions on the cut pattern on my saw's blade intersection.

   I sent the dimensions and received another email and a call confirming that there was a Micro Kerf on they was from the RC in California with directions and to keep the band mill under a tarp. :D

   Well I installed it and started to cut logs, Big and small long and short.  I loved it.  I called about a month later and asked the price.  They told me to keep cutting and sending in my numbers on log scale and actual lumber cut.  Another month went by and I was told the same thing.  I called this month and was told to keep it till I destroyed it or wear it out which ever comes first.

   Now some of you are going to say big deal.  Well it is.  I am not a full time sawyer, I'm lucky to cut 15,000bf a year.  Heck I've only been sawing for 2 years total so it's not like they picked someone with years of experience to give an opinion.  Heck I didn't even purchase a high end saw.  As far as I know part of the blade trial is to see if a new sawyer/owner can take a new mill set it up with a trial blade and make good boards with out wrecking things to quickly.  That remains to be seen.

   IF this is not responding to customer needs I'm not sure what is.  If that is not taking feed back from customers and using their input/help in product development then I guess I'm missing something.  Just because it's not public doesn't mean that it is not happening.
   My point in all this long windedness is that you are just wrong as far as Peterson's is concerned and I'm the proof.
  I hope that this revives your faith in the system

              As far as I'm concerned Petersons has been helpful,responsive,and innovative.  Their customer service is the best I've ever delt with.  Everythign a sawmill company should be.

Tom

[Furby]

In addition to those ideas proposed here which I think is worthy of examination, I have in the past proposed the following:

Scragg mill attachment – for those postes which are too small to mill
Radial sawing attachment – to produce true quarter sawn lumber for say, siding
Dogging system – no need to explain
Easy system to load the powerhead onto a trailer with one man without busting a valve
Tooth aligment and grinding jig- accuracy is paramount
An apparatus for sawing extra big logs – I mean bigger than 2 meters diameter
Alignment laser - for preparing the cut in advance
New material for the lifting chains - that doesn't rust
Roof rack for packing – it's a bother every time to have to tie on
Apparatus for using the mill as a planning table – making slabs flat


There were a few more as I recall. But my success so far is but one change of materials for a heat shield from galvanized steel to stainless steel. Sad.

Just like to point out that based on what I have read here, there has been some work done on a dogging system.

As well as "an Apparatus for using the mill as a planning table – making slabs flat".
I belive there is at least one company selling these and Ian made his own. ;)

[NZJake]

Howz it Andy,

Great to hear from you again. We've been busy at Petersons, I feel we've been able to answer a few of your requests...

Small logs, we've got something sorted(might not be toward the scraggmill concept, cant go into any detail just yet though). I am hoping its gonna hit the market early next year?

Radial sawn timber, thats an interesting concept (seems to me you'll end up with alot of waist, unless that is your cutting for shingles or tapered boards?). You might have something there? Cant help you just yet though.

Dogging system, we're working on an upgrade to our present system we sell. This should be released very shortly.

Loading, we've had an advantage there for quite sometime, horizontal chain and deck loaders allow for ease of loading on all our machines.

Re-tipping jig, we've come up with a breakthrough in this design, our new system actually clamps the tooth with a bronze backing while you rotate the blade into it (applying heat). This will be released very shortly too.

We offer giant frame options on all our WPF/ASM systems. ATS can be slid sideways on any size log in standard format, just use a long board under each skid (similar to the MD beam version).

Alignment laser, cant help you at this stage. You can buy them on the market quite readily though.

All our chains on our machines are SUPERSHIELDED, a type of baked on rust resistant second to stainless.

The roof rack, don't know what you mean here? Maybe if you explain a little more?

Plaining blade, we've got it and works real well.

Back to the sawdust collection system, try on that net idea under the high track and maybe use the 'logosol' chip extraction unit, it works great as it tolerates the real big chips. Suck and blow right into a container ready for dumping. Also, as Part_Timer suggests, we've come up with the MICROKERF reducing the sawdust around 40%, there's a start.

In summary we 'are' listening to all you guys's requests, we don't normally have to get too involved in topics like this as owners normally call us and tell us of their needs.

Cheers, Jake

[doublecut]

We have had a dogging system for the swingers  for 6 months now. Will work with any swinger and can multiply dog more than one small log in at a time.  Very simple and effective.
doublecut

[Nate Surveyor]

Ok, I am fixed site, alot.

Here is me thots.

I have a nice polyfiber snow shovel.

And I just bought a 2 wheeled wheelbarrow. With a 10 cubic foot plastic tub. It is a Jackson brand, from Lowes. 109 bucks.

Now, when double cutting, there needs to be a flap that hangs down, to catch and arrest the chips that fly the WRONG way.

And, maybe (I have 110 volt power at the mill) add a leaf blower to the mill, that ADDS air to the blade cover, beneath the water jug. Enough to really LAUNCH the chips away from the mill, so they can be picked up with a tractor.

I just got the 2 wheeled wheelbarrow. LOVE it.

I load a wheelbarrow of chips, with snow shovel, and then dump into my 4 wheeler trailer. Mom comes by and takes it.

But, yes waste management is an issue.

Nate

[Dan_Shade]

a scoop shovel will run circles around a snow shovel for sawdust removal

[Nate Surveyor]

It is a scoop shovel. I called it a show shovel. My bad.

Snow shovels are more flat. Mine is a BIG scoop.

N

[Captain]

I use a "billygoat" brand 11hp debris loader and the dump truck.  Works pretty well, if you are not trying to lift the sawdust too much, about 3-4 feet is good for the suction hose elevation, then the discharge makes it into the dump truck easily.  With too much lift, the pickup hose will plug up with heavy, wet sawdust.

The whole operation would be a lot cleaner if I had a chip box on the dump truck....

Captain

[Nate Surveyor]

How much does the microkerf kit cost?

What about how tough the blades are?

I'd say that sometimes the 6" max cut is just fine.

Has anybody done an actual cost study on them?

Thx

Cap'n, I saw a billy goat one time. (The machine that is!) What do you think about the BIG stihl leaf blowers? I mean the really powerfull machines. That would be cheaper than a billy goat vac. And have many other uses. (they are GOOD for blowing a fire trail through the woods.

I guess I will have to try it.

N

[Captain]

I think the good big Stihl blowers are not as good as an Echo 700.  Much more CFM.  The blower does not halp me pick up the sawdust, however.  Just spread it everywhere.

8" microkerf kit currently is $1262, and the blades are $449 each.  At that price, I'll keep sawing my high mix of free eastern white pine with .220" kerf rather than .150"

Captain

[Part_Timer]

Nate

I have a micro kit and like it a lot, I've had mine since I got the mill. 

I've cut 6K+ bf with mine now and have had no problems with it. 

I did have one metal strike and it was very very very bad. I sent it out and had it repaired with no problem.  I was cutting a very large ash tree and found a piece of fence wire the hard way.  I hit it parallel to the blade and it bent 2 of the teeth about 3/16th out of wack.  We had been finding bullets all day long so when the metal detector said there was wire in there I just figured it was another bullet.  OOOOOPPPPSSSS. oh well.  $86 for repair and retip of 2 carbides with shipping

You have to use a lot of water and I mean a lot.  It does not take much in the way of heat to warp the plate.  I've done that also.  When I first got my kit I was running with what I thought was a bunch of water and found out to late it was not enough. 

For me it's worth it but I'm not cutting free white pine.  At the end of the day I hate to see a large pile of cherry or walnut dust on the ground.  Sawdust =$$$$$ and in cherry and walnut that is big $$$$

There are only a couple of micro kerfs here in the states so I don't know how much study has been done. 

[Oldsawdust]

I found a good saw doc in Alabama
2 blades ,[5 teeth] $45 and that includes shipping 8) 8)
email me for the address.

[LOGDOG]

AOM,

   I just got done reading 3 pages of posts in their entirety. I noticed that in the reponses, different performance levels and expectations of the individual members were made manifest. As a former Peterson ASM owner (which uses the high track system) and who rarely finds himself in front of a pile of logs under 10,000 feet and 95% of the time is cutting 4/4 lumber (thus more waste) I feel I've got a little something to chime in here. First off, I know your frustration. Someone who isn't running their mill full time and putting a lot of wood through it on a daily basis cannot begin to imagine the amount of time and money it costs to have to deal with an inefficient waste issue. Frustrating. At first I resented the machine. Then a huge dose of honesty made me realize I had simply bought the wrong machine for what it was that I was trying to accomplish.

   Jeff made a comment about big mills, the amount of waste they deal with, and how never do the mill manufacturers provide a waste removal system (paraphrased - see actual post for 100% accuracy). There's a lot of truth in that statement and hidden wisdom. See, people think that they can buy a mill and vwalla! - they're in the lumber business. Not hardly. It's like buying a puppy. The cost of the dog is the least you will ever spend. Then begins the shots, food, vet checkups, possible surgeries, training, boarding,etc,etc. Someone who has had a dog before would be aware of all that is to follow if they were looking for another puppy to add to the family.

    So here you are, (as was I) you've got a machine that you must like in some capacity (as did I my ASM (in ways) as evidenced by my many posts and pictures on the topic here), and yet you're posed with a major working problem that will require you to do some engineering, fabrication, and spending several thousand dollars to come up with a good solution that will work day in and day out. (The best idea mentioned in previous posts for your situation IMHO was the elevated platform with a large grid wire grate floor on top that would allow the chips to fall through to a barn cleaner type sweeping system- (add) at the end of which could be a sunken hopper plumbed to a large blower system to blow the chips/ debris into a van or the like. Either way you're looking at spending some money. That's the bottom line. The fix to your dilemma will come much faster if you address it directly and specifically for your situation than it will waiting on any manufacturer to solve it for you by way of a retrofit.

   So all that said, you know what you have in your machine money wise. Estimate what the cost of implementing a solution will be and add them together. Then ask yourself, "Am I better off keeping this machine and adding this other stuff to it, or am I better off selling this machine and replacing it with a "better mousetrap" who's mechanics are simply different and handle the issue with which I'm struggling in a more efficient manner? I resisted this for about 3 years before I finally got brutally honest with myself and made the change. In the end I replaced my ASM with a second hand Woodmizer for 1/3 the cost and now am rid of the frustrations that I had for about 3 years. My production is way up. My Waste is way down (and off to my left -easily sucked up by a hanging hose). Log handling is super easy with the hydraulics. Lumber quality is better than ever. Blade costs are down. Profits are up.

   So I would recommend (if you're serious about solving you're production challenges) sitting down and calculating the costs as I mentioned. Then act! Be decisive and don't look back. One thing about us Sawmillers - we're stubborn. Sometimes we hate to admit we made a mistake and maybe bought the wrong mill for our needs. (And needs change too - don't forget that.) I think if you dial it in to what "you" need and how "you" can address it, you'll flourish faster than asking the manufacturers to solve the question for you. They make what they make and feel they have a good product which may be true. It just might not be right for you. Make sense? I hope in some way this helps and wish you much success in solving your dilemma.

LOGDOG