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Home owner MS170 Versus pro saw MS200 contest

Started by nimblebee, December 25, 2020, 08:44:48 PM

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mike_belben

If i glue a dixie cup to your table and fill it withwater then say empty it, what would you do?


Drill holes in the sides. 


Picture it that way when looking at crankcase flow. The magic under the piston cant get over the wall created by the piston skirts, so help it get through them.  The transfer entrances are next to the pin, which isnt along the thrust axis.  Bottom of the skirts at north and south is critical but not east and west.  Im not saying a piston cant break but thats up to you to determine as the builder. 
Praise The Lord

nimblebee

Quote from: mike_belben on December 31, 2020, 09:46:21 AM...The magic under the piston cant get over the wall created by the piston skirts, so help it get through them.  The transfer entrances are next to the pin, which isnt along the thrust axis.  Bottom of the skirts at north and south is critical but not east and west.
Mike,
Researches into porting techniques has shown that there is definitely more than one way to get the job done, and my understanding is benefiting from seeing different methods and what results.
Your postings have been very helpful in pointing me to resources and ideas I never would have thought of, which helps to congeal understanding of the principles behind "why" modifications enhance performance.  
I'd say that's where the "magic" happens   lol  ;-)

nimblebee

Don

Don't know if you've already made a "study model" from a junk saw as Mike's suggested? 
If it would be useful, here's video of cutaway model with accompanying explanations:
https://youtu.be/puKkc79kkww?t=25

nimblebee

Customizing my "B.S. 170+" chainsaw to best suit my particular purposes and preferences, I'm planning adding an additional top handle with throttle control.

I'm speculating that having two handles will give me the best of both worlds and the most utility out of my chainsaw?

What do you think about the utility of having a 2-handle saw?  Is adding top handle worth the bother?  I'm curious to know opinions.

donbj

Quote from: nimblebee on January 01, 2021, 09:22:28 AM
Don,

Don't know if you've already made a "study model" from a junk saw as Mike's suggested?

If it would be useful, here's video of cutaway model with accompanying explanations:

https://youtu.be/puKkc79kkww?t=25
That's on the list for sure. Many thanks for the link! I watched a couple of that fellows videos. Very informative and straight forward. Helped alot.
I may be skinny but I'm a Husky guy

Woodmizer LT40HDG24. John Deere 5300 4WD with Loader/Forks. Husky 262xp. Jonsered 2065, Husky 65, Husky 44, Husky 181XP, Husky 2100CD, Husky 185CD

lxskllr

Extra handles = extra weight. That eats into the big advantage of little saws. I think it might also throw the balance off in top handle use.

nimblebee

Quote from: lxskllr on January 02, 2021, 09:16:14 AM
Extra handles = extra weight. That eats into the big advantage of little saws. I think it might also throw the balance off in top handle use.
All valid points you've brought up...  
Unclear concerning balance? ... top-handle for limbing, one-handed use... suppose I'd have to try & find out? ...  
keeping weight down, could form handle with larger sized PVC pipe... Once pipe's filled with hot sand & becomes pliable, one can bend/squash, pretty much (within reason) form whatever shape's needed ...  That's one method some utilize in forming frames for their DIY snow shoes ...  
Farmertec website has spare parts at ridiculously low prices; couple dollars gets trigger pieces for building secondary top handle ... Downside's ETA three weeks delivery, so most folk won't bother utilizing this resource...
To my way of thinking, tricky part's handle attachment... I've a few notions  along the lines of how to get there...

sawguy21

Saws are not designed to be used with one hand! If it kicks back you have no control. Be careful, we would rather talk to you not about you. I would not sell a top handle to a consumer.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

nimblebee

Quote from: sawguy21 on January 02, 2021, 11:45:18 AM
Saws are not designed to be used with one hand! If it kicks back you have no control.
HHHHHHHhhhhhhhuuuuuuuuummmmmmmm...
Very good of you to bring that up! ...  I hadn't thought that far along ...  I know people limbing use saws (improperly) one handed...
I've concluded: necessary designing into handle a safety feature, such that in event saw kicks back, instantaneously brake's applied.  
One may not be able to prevent one-handed usage (there is that saying "You can't fix stupid"),  however, proposed safety feature would be equally  preventative with kickback as saw's chain brake is in two-handed use.
There's no getting around it: using a chainsaw is dangerous work; there is a limit to which preventive measures can prevail.
Many times I'm reminded, that the best "safety device" in preventing accidents sits underneath the hard hat.

lxskllr

Regarding balance... Dunno. That's something I'd have to feel to know. IMO, balance is king with a saw. I'd rather use a well balanced heavy saw, than a light one with bad balance. I'm also a little skeptical of homemade handles, both in comfort and longevity. Maybe a bar that connects to the front and rear handles? Would probably work, but then you're working around it in rear handle use. How to setup the trigger(s)?

Regarding one handing top handles... I think the safety aspect is a little nuanced. We all know why they were created, and it wasn't for two handed use. Two handed is better, but sometimes it isn't practical, and the safe approach is to use one hand. One should be cognizant of the increased risk, and take steps to counter it. The biggest danger is becoming blasé about it, and swinging it all over the place cause it's so easy to do. Sloppiness regardless of saw style will end up biting you.

nimblebee

Quote from: lxskllr on January 02, 2021, 12:39:45 PM...Maybe a bar that connects to the front and rear handles? Would probably work, but then you're working around it in rear handle use. How to setup the trigger(s)? ...

I've come along the same pathway in my thinking process concerning handle placement... needs to be sturdy; yet at the same time, out of the way for using original, rearmost handle.
Top handle also has to be detachable, so that you can open the top cover to change air filters and get at the guts of the saw.   The natural way to do that, would be to attach top handle onto top cover, but that won't work, because strength of top cover is insufficient to withstand loads handle would transfer to the top cover.
Natural conclusion would be that top handle itself would have to be attached, passing loads through the top cover getting strength/support by gripping something substantially strong underneath top cover at the rearmost of the top handle (near where the top cover has its attachment).
Top handle would need to grip at it's front, that bar which goes crosswise saw (doubtless someone will come along who knows proper terminology for this piece lol), remain attached through top cover, and yet be strong enough while still removable with top cover.  Requires some interesting development work to be practical, eh? :-D
I apologize that conception is not easiest to describe and consequently picture in one's mind, but that's about the best I can manage. Perhaps it'd be best to illustrate with sketch of top handle concept I've in mind, posting with this description, thereby easing visualization of what's being considered? idk
I have some methods in mind to proceed along these lines, but it would take trial and error finding what worked best.  
One doubts it's the case for majority of people, but for me, this is a fun exercise, working/puzzling my way through to successful conclusion  lol  :-)
Operating top handle's trigger would require internally operating rear handle's trigger at the same time, and as they would be linked, this would apply vice versa.  Interesting conundrums to resolve lol  :-)

nimblebee

Quote from: lxskllr on January 02, 2021, 12:39:45 PMRegarding balance... Dunno. That's something I'd have to feel to know. IMO, balance is king with a saw.
B.S.170+ ...I've been lucky trying approaches for DIY top handle so far... One of the things I've tried seems to be able to preserve balance and stay out of the way of the rear handle and the top cover removal... It looks like it will be doable  to run a linkage from top handle trigger down to bottom handle's throttle trigger ...  More work to go sorting it all out   lol :-)  Brad

nimblebee

Thought I would put in an update for folks following this thread as far as progress on the build.
I've purchased a shorter 14 inch bar (for 3/8 chain) to go on the chainsaw (came to me with a 16 inch bar), which is plenty enough for limbing.
3/8 inch chains and replacement 3/8 clutch drum chain sprocket,  with the idea of getting away from the Pico 3/8 chain and going to a beefier stronger more aggressive chain to  make best use of increased power porting will give B.S.170 +
Mostly I'm still studying porting threads by such gurus as Mastermind, Tree monkey and others, sorting out which methods I wish to employ, and determining how far I want to take porting work.  There is a lot to  absorb with a steep learning curve, and a lot of differences in methodologies employed with the different builders lol :-)
Anticipating arrival of more tooling and parts; porting should go smoother with tungsten carbide bits.

nimblebee

Quick update for those following along this thread:
While I'm waiting for throttle trigger parts to ship in from China (for added 2nd top handle) and for eBay orders like tungsten carbide burr bits to arrive, I wanted to continue making progress with ;-) STILL (a) "B.S.170+" project, so I started constructing a toolbox case to hold chainsaw and accouterments.
Everywhere I looked online they wanted too much money for a chainsaw case but toolboxes were cheap, and sheaths fitting over bar were also quite affordable, so "badda bing, bada bang."  
Put the two together and you have a customized chainsaw carrying case to put your tools, bar and 2-cycle oil and whatever else all in one convenient location, in a lockable hard convenient plastic case.
Took my chainsaw without the bar and no oil or gas in it into different stores selling tool boxes, and I had no idea how many toolboxes would NOT fit my chainsaw properly.  lol
After the 4th store, I was starting to become frustrated, when at Home Depot found a Husky brand, 22-inch toolbox that fit my B.S.170+ chainsaw perfectly, with extra room left inside for various accouterments & tools AND top tray didn't even have to be cut to fit around my chainsaw handle!  :-)   We are happy now, with my purchase lol.
This really wasn't an original idea, because there's all kinds of DIY tutorials on "how to make a case for your chainsaw from a toolbox" if you want to look around online, but for me at least (being on a budget), this work-around makes for a good and practical solution.  
I have too many places for my money to go, to spend $50 to $80 on a chainsaw case, that really wouldn't do everything I wanted anyway.
Now all I have to do is find some Allis Chalmers orange paint, and I'll be able to have toolbox/bar sheath match high visibility clothing required at work.  
That'll make me look like I know what I'm doing, for all those "armchair experts," by having all colors matching  LOL  :-D   Beware: "straw-boss supervisors" are everywhere!  lol  ;-P
DIY example: https://www.instructables.com/Toolbox-Into-Chainsaw-Case/

nimblebee

Brief update on B.S.170+, while waiting for ordered parts to arrive:

Having read on quite a few forums, unless you've a sharp blade, however powerful your saw, you don't have anything much impressive.
Taking this into consideration, I've ordered original Oregon PowerSharp starter kit, and for comparison, a Chinese knockoff sharpening cartridge, plus 5 chainsaw chains to experiment and modify/determining if something DIY works as well or better, via using a top-down sharpening profile.
With a three week lead time, some parts've arrived from FarmerTec and were installed, converting chainsaw bar to side adjustable & metal felling dogs installed, replacing ineffective OEM plastic dogs.
It didn't seem as though air filter on MS 170's was all that great a design,  so I have doubled up on my filtering by supplementing OEM with foam air filter.  
I'm speculating foam might restrict air flow, but loss's worthwhile, having superior filtration/keeping crud out of carburetor & preventing into engine.
Further investigating porting posts, watching guru's tutorials & reading  instructional forums  :-)

nimblebee

We're snowed in with near blizzard conditions, boss texted: "no work" outside today, so busy studying porting forums and videos, instead of doing housework that I eventually can't escape! lol  :-)  ...
One Forum mentioned 20% increase in power via changing out piston and cylinder intended for MS 180 being a straightforward "bolt onto MS170" modification; so've ordered FarmerTec's MS 180 piston and cylinder kit (expected three-week ETA). 
Should be fun and interesting verifying if a significant 20% increase in power results?  Never anticipated such as increase for only a 1 mm difference in piston size?   Seems odd MS180 cylinder/piston actually bolts directly onto an MS 170, sans further modifications?
It's reassuring, need not fear wrecking MS170 cylinder during learning porting process, as cylinder and piston that came with MS170 will become spare parts irregardless.
Not hearing most encouraging opinions concerning connecting rod's strength used in MS170.   One needs proceed carefully, according to some forum postings, as having too much power increase could become of concern? idk

sablatnic

Re tophandle, have you considered one long handle to do the job as both front and rear handle, like the Homlite xl2?

nimblebee

Quote from: sablatnic on January 15, 2021, 06:35:39 PM
Re tophandle, have you considered one long handle to do the job as both front and rear handle, like the Homlite xl2?
Thanks for pointing out Homelite XL2's long handle.  It's always good to start by reviewing other's "proven solutions" to an issue, before "reinventing the wheel"  lol.  XL2 does give me pause to think, some engineers once considered having a top and back handle of sufficient service, to develop their version.  :-)
Attempted to locate XL2's handle design on "Chainsaw Collectors Corner" and was surprised seeing 4 separate entities under "Homelite" for manufacturers. :-P   Supposing way companies are bought and sold these days, one almost needs internet, just to keep track of who owns what, by whom?  :)
Photos located comparing XL2's longish top handle versus  Homelite "normal" back handle, intimates XL2's design appears to me a bit of compromise, being just shorter in length of positioning than typical back handles?  
Of concern: operating throttle trigger (if lacking front and back position triggers).  I'm wondering how that works out for the operator? idk
Comparison photo from closed auction site showing both types: of handle side-by-side https://bid.kaufman-auctions.com/lot-details/index/catalog/26066/lot/3866832#mz-expanded-view-1480800067871


nimblebee

Having finished reading ecopy of Jenning's "Two-stroke Tuners Handbook", I can see large learning curve spreading out before me! .... >8'@
http://www.amrca.com/tech/tuners.pdf
Still to study: Blair's "Design and Simulation of Two-stroke Engines".
http://www.dragonfly75.com/motorbike/2StrokeDesign.pdf
Understanding more about what enthusiasts have discovered & engineering principles behind decisions upon which design compromises were made, helps when reading various forums where experimenters share their porting techniques and findings.
It would seem perhaps best way in proceeding: small learning steps, making observations before going further into more advanced modifications and more detailed porting?
Clearly enough knowledge has been conveyed by this time, to take on contouring/removing casting/manufacturing defects and shaping inlet and exhaust ports.
Tempted, but leaving transfer mods for "further down the road" ;-)
One would anticipate following steps: adjusting stock timing (if needed), getting squish between .020 to .025.
Although I've already modded muffler, I'm still intrigued with concepts of a tuned exhaust (espoused by Jennings). Leaving tuned muffler concept alone for now, as there's more studying and learning involved in going with that :-P  lol
I did learn one thing during ongoing studies:
When purchased for experimentation, parts chainsaw advert noted: "may have compression issues"... upon disassembly for porting build, bottom ring was very definitely broken, missing a chunk.  How's that for truth in advertising? ;-)  
Ring chunk's gone who-knows-where? Happily, new set of rings are on order.
Thankfully, only minor damage sustained, during "exit stage left"(Snagglepuss). Snagglepuss Exit Stage Left - YouTube



nimblebee

Brief update on "B.S.170+" project chainsaw, "experimental-build."
Since build's purpose is learning porting and experimenting for fun, parts costs have been minimized, further progress's waiting upon remainder of parts arriving.
Overseas parts sources being most economical for experimenting, shipping delays amount to several weeks before further progress on build.
Taking break from forums/tutorials on porting, concentrating efforts elsewhere; I'll continue in a couple of weeks, when all parts have arrived.

brettl

That saw cant be modified enough to make use of 3/8 pitch chain. I'd stick with the Picco. I've used it for years on my 200t. It's also standard issue for Stihls 241(not available in the U.S. If you research the use of Picco chain on larger saws, it been adapted to saws in the 60cc range. I'm following this build and I like the way you think outside the box.

nimblebee

Glad someone likes what I'm working on and is following the build 8)

Sometimes the ideas that occur to me are so far "out of the box thinking" that they take people out of their comfort zone and folks pretty much don't want to go there, but "Beyond The Cutting Edge" "blue sky projects" is where progress and change is made lol.  And then orthodoxy patents it and claims it was their own, once it's $ucce$$ful  lol  “The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.” - Conan O’Brien :-P
What am I talking about?   I could illustrate this with a couple of examples of people being outside their comfort zone regards commonly held beliefs.
I'm sure one of these, everybody's bound to find taking them out of their beliefs & comfort zone, and reason for making these statements, is that will get you a good idea for what it feels like, when I tell some fellers about the "out of the box saw modification ideas" below:
DNA of Bigfoot has been analyzed scientifically and results have been published in scientific journal.  Mainstream refuses to look at or pay credit to these findings, bad panning them at worst whilst ignoring results at best.  Scientific Integrity? I don't think so!... somebody's sacred beliefs (Prestige and funding) are getting stepped on? idk
http://sasquatchgenomeproject.org/
Here's another idea that's too outside the box for most people's "comfort zone":  Amazon black salve treatment for cancer.   Tons of testimonials, video and pictorial evidence from people who've used it.  If you do a search for black salve, you will find nothing but bad information; Orthodoxy $eem$ to be again$t Black $alve.  Why i$ thi$?  What i$ at $take? idk  ;-p
https://healthnwealthltd.com/index.php/health-and-wealth-testimonials/clients-live-testimonials/327-recovery-of-breast-cancer-patient-on-black-salve
https://youtu.be/llq5nP8Qn68?t=48
Okay enough of that! Now what sort of outside the box ideas, which are beyond the comfort zone of most Builder's consideration, am I thinking of, to achieve a more powerful chainsaw?  
Getting started, I appreciate ideas about muffler mods, bringing in extra ports, modifications to crank/crankcase to create a "supercharged" effect, even reed valves (familiar from outboard motor work).   
If that hasn't taken you out of your "comfort zone," here's a couple of doozies that I've been contemplating for my chainsaw modifications:  
Using Joe Cell (once attaining stage 3) to "charge up" chainsaw motor and crankcase.   Experimenters have reported enormous power gains and increases in RPM.  That's all I'm going to say about that!  lol  :-)
And then there is proven GEET technology...One of these GEETs on a chainsaw?  Way more power! :-)http://www.teslatech.info/ttstore/articles/geet/geet.htm

Enough outside the box thinking for today, I hope? LOL  >8'@
All of this because my boss at the tree service challenged me to learn porting and build an MS 170 comparable with his MS200T lol :-)  

Boss, be careful what you ask for!   roflol  :-D

nimblebee



 

 Getting down to the last week waiting for parts to arrive for porting experimental MS 170 chainsaw.   ETA sometime early next week? idk


Think might have figured out web photo hosting?  This way, I can show some of the steps & progress being made.

Been grinding/porting work.  From what I can tell, MS170 has so much restriction in intake and exhaust ports, it can't develop much power, because it can't breathe well.

At this juncture, leaving transfers and port timing alone (that will change :-),  concentrating on removing unnecessary restrictions to airflow.    Merely improving airflow should make noticeable power increase?  I'll find out,  and then maybe I'll adjust port timing  :-)

Once mods/muffler mod tested for increased power, considering specially tuned muffler of my own design.  Not saying design hasn't been trialed somewhere previously, but if so, have yet to find anything out there like it.  lol
"Nothing new under the Sun"


 

This is the basic conception in a nutshell:

The muffler is basically a silencer for a chainsaw, and some of the early silencer designs had features that could be useful for chainsaws.

Nikola Tesla invented a one-way valve that often times has had its features adapted to silencer use.

Envision muffler with Tesla one-way valve concept but combined with the early recirculating silencer ideas.

Enough Chambers/stages could be tailored to when exhaust gases exited chamber/stages, they would be in time to reflect back and shove fresh fuel mixture exiting cylinder back inside.

Envisioning somewhat like long Alpine trumpet, VS modern bugle being wound around & around making more compact.  Same idea, but different application, of replacing wound tubing with chambers/stages (which act like miniature whistles) and causing the exhaust gases to circulate internally in a circular vortex, before exiting one stage and going into the next, timed to exit stages and reflect back into cylinder as a tuned muffler.

Might be a spell before I get around to fabing a muffler like this.  For one thing, this is so much in principle to firearm silencers, I wonder what BATF's technical division would rule on legality?  It would be astonishing if chainsaw muffler required $200 tax stamp, 6+month waiting period and background check.  Better safe than sorry!  I'll have to check in with technical division...




Bcg

I personally think the 170 is a durable little saw, mine started life in my lawn service used by crews that couldn't care less about it and probably 15 years later is still running strong despite being pretty much abused.  I put it away with gas still in it and sometimes don't pick it back up for several  months are longer and it always starts.  The only thing I've done to it is replace a broken handle from running it over with the tractor.  I don't think I've ever even changed or cleaned the air filter or spark plug.  I can't kill it.

nimblebee

Quote from: Bcg on February 06, 2021, 11:35:14 AM
I personally think the 170 is a durable little saw... it always starts...
broken handle from running it over with the tractor.  I don't think I've ever even changed or cleaned the air filter or spark plug.  I can't kill it.
Stihl engineers must have done their homework and gotten the job done right, to've made your MS 170 so reliable :-)  ...
Bulletproof I've heard of... Tractor proof? ... not so much!  LOL  ;-D  ...Your chainsaw could not have been made on a Monday or Friday, me thinks! ;-)  lols
Good to have a stable saw platform for experimenting with ... good place to start modding, on a MS 170 ...
We've got Winter weather here, and tree service company's liable not to be working so much tree trimming this next week, which will give me time off work for experimenting porting "BS 170+" build ...
Happily, "floating" parts have finally arrived (IE: China), and now (having most bits and pieces necessary for modifications), hopefully over this next week, I'll have video and pictures for show and tell ...  :-)
Uncertain how much porting I want to do at once? I'm much in favor of the notion "changing one thing at a time" & testing ... then proceeding further with other directives/testing those results.
Reading over forums on porting saws, these technical discussions are making my head spin! ... that must be what gives their saws extra RPMs!   LOL



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