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WRC Logs quality issues

Started by Fadeev Alexey, November 17, 2016, 11:58:08 AM

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Fadeev Alexey

Hello everyone!

My name is Alexey, and I'm from Russia.
I'm doing business with different African timbers for about 9 years.
Now I'm starting my own sawmill near Saint-Petersburg, so I'm looking for different logs all around the world.
And one of my key interests is Western Red Cedar.  It is very famous here for its looks and smell, and also people believe that it has special merits.

I used to buy it in panels in Canada, buy it as sawn timber and process it in China...
And now, as I'm building my sawmill, I started to think about buying it in logs.
After I began to collect information about logging in USA and Canada, I've discovered The Forestry Forum, which is a source of invaluable information about the Forestry sector as a whole.

I really hope that you guys will be able to help me out with my questions on WRC, since you are the carriers of direct knowledge and experience, which I have yet to discover.

1. Logs export.

I'll start with an anecdote.

After an unsuccessful battle, Napoleon summoned the chief of artillery and abruptly asked him why did not fire the gun.

He began to make excuses: "On this we had a couple of reasons. Firstly, the powder is ended ... "

Sooo... Firstly.
Do you know anything about some kind of restriction on WRC logs export from USA or Canada?

I heard different rumors: Some say that there are some quotas for that kind of wood. Some say that WRC logs export is totally banned. I don't fully understand why it needs to be banned, since anyone can easily purchase WRC sawn timber or Tsuga logs. But governmental restrictions shouldn't be logical all the time.
Anyway, please clarify this to me, if it is possible.

2. Logs quality criteria.

Since I've never bought logs from America, I want to be sure that I understand the logs quality criteria same way as you understand it.
I'm not afraid to look stupid or unexperienced, since I could be both from your point of view.
I have never seen WRC tree or WRC log live, all my experience is from Internet pictures and videos.
Therefore, I have collected a few pictures so you can evaluate how accurately I appreciate the quality of the logs

Measurement.



First cut



High grade






Low grade



Cracks



As I understand, snags and burrs from overgrown knots in Cedar are normal. So I should not pay attention to it.
The main thing that it should be the first and second cut, and a large diameter.
And surely rot, cracks, boon are not allowed.

So, basically, this is a picture of perfect first and second cut big diameter WRC logs.
Dreamboat.


Thank you for reading!
I would really like to know what you think.

Warmest saunaregards,
Alexey







CCC4

Well for one, Eastern Red Cedar is the one famous for their smell and color...number two, you seem to be way to picky for your market. Unless you are paying double what China does...why would anyone want to sell to you? The pics you showed as flaws are typical of marketing measurements, Tupi al flaws in the species. Cedar is unique for how it grows and it imperfections. If you want perfect...buy pine. Best of luck, but I would change my marketing strategy. China will smoke you in export out of the States.

Chop Shop

@ccc4,  WRC is ALSO famous for its smell and color.  Not just ERC.

And pine is far less perfect than our coasts beautiful Doug Fir.  Dang I hate sawing pine!


If I was willing to pay export for top grade WRC, ALL of the posters concerns are very valid.

Alexy, Im sorry I cant help you with many of your questions, but welcome to the forum and please enjoy the WRC from here in the PNW.  Its a wonderful wood loved by many.

Gearbox

You will need a export broker and that would be where you need to start . The wood and quality will come with what you are willing to pay . The broker may have a buyer he uses . Its a place to start . The broker has to make sure all taxes get paid . Also you will need a bank in the US and the money will be in the bank[ US funds] befor the shipment is loaded .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

shelbycharger400

If your going to be picky on buying, the price always goes up.  Ive had red cedar @24 in dia. That made $50 of sawn lumber, sometimes i got $300.     This is why cedar you use 2/3 . rule.   Cedar is thee biggest pain in the rear to log. It takes 3-4 times as much work.   Ive logged 45 of em a few years ago, had over an hour on each one just cutting the brush off . They produced 3-4 saw logs each at 8 ft even.

OntarioAl

Folks
The gentleman wants high quality Western Red cedar and appears to be willing to pay for quality.
He is not interested in Eastern White nor Eastern Red cedar.
I have cut logs from Eastern White cedar and it is not a high production game. I have not had the privilege of cutting Eastern Red cedar but from the various posts on this forum it is not a fun job either.
Al
Al Raman

Andries

OK, so I'll try to make a few comments on Western Red Cedar, from the perspective and experience of a Canadian Prairie boy!
Alexey: This is what my logs look like when we get a truck in from British Columbia, Canada.

Nine long logs make a full load for the transport truck.

Old tech spray paint and high tech bar code tag on the same log.
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Andries

Quote from: Fadeev Alexey on November 17, 2016, 11:58:08 AM
Hello everyone!
.......
1. Logs export.
I'll start with an anecdote.
After an unsuccessful battle, Napoleon summoned the chief of artillery and abruptly asked him why did not fire the gun.
He began to make excuses: "On this we had a couple of reasons. Firstly, the powder is ended ... "

I can't quote from history, let alone any French battles, but Canada has log brokers that sell logs to International markets. Our logs are priced by the cubic metre when we buy them, which may be a measurement that you're already comfortable with.
They can be purchased with bark on (which we prefer) or with the bark taken off (if you are milling only, that may be good - but for us building custom log homes, TOO rough!)
Another point, the beautiful, straight, knot free beauties are linked to ugly "pecker logs" that have defects. So, you may pick out twelve gorgeous logs from the log boom floating in seawater in Vancouver, but you also have some not-so-beautiful sisters that come with the package.



If the building is small, this isn't a problem, as there's always a creative use for every log.
A Canadian expression: "I can work with ugly, but nobody can fix stupid."
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Andries

Quote from: Fadeev Alexey on November 17, 2016, 11:58:08 AM
2. Logs quality criteria.
Since I've never bought logs from America, I want to be sure that I understand the logs quality criteria same way as you understand it.
I'm not afraid to look stupid or unexperienced, since I could be both from your point of view.
....
First cut
......
High grade
.......
Low grade
.........
Cracks
...........
As I understand, snags and burrs from overgrown knots in Cedar are normal. So I should not pay attention to it.
The main thing that it should be the first and second cut, and a large diameter.
And surely rot, cracks, boon are not allowed.
So, basically, this is a picture of perfect first and second cut big diameter WRC logs.
Dreamboat.
..............
Measurement: yup, I agree with your idea of fair measurement.
First cut: I'm guessing that you mean the felling cut, yes? Root flare (or butt flare) is usual in my experience.
Depending on what your want from your logs, it may be seen as waste to be trimmed off.
If your mill is big enough, it could be seen as the best part of the log.
Many of our logs are 35 to 55 feet (10 to 17m.) long. Where the second cut happens may be dictated by the shipping container/method you can arrange for.

Butt flare incorporated in the design of a log home.

Butt flare is difficult to scribe and fit in making saddle notches, but allows for higher pricing of finished product.

High grade Perhaps, and...
Low grade Perhaps not, and ....
Cracks Are not uncommon.
Your challenge is to mill the log to best advantage.
We've had logs where the bark has concealed a crack from one end to the other. No one suspected that until we started to debark and clean the log up.
We'd all like dreamboats, and nuthin' but, however . . .
The bad logs, the nasty pecker logs, the ugly spinsters that no one wants; have many many knots, too much taper for their length, and have a spiral twist to the grain. Those are the TRUE 'deplorables' !

Yes, we get some of the good, the bad and the ugly. If the log broker on the West Coast (2300 km. to the West) was dropping off a load of pecker logs from his transport truck in our yard, we could have a hot discussion about log quality. . . . but.
St Petersburg, Russia (your location?) may be as remote to these logs as we are.
It comes down to trusting a log broker that you build a relationship with.  :-\
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Andries

The internet address is on this log tag, they are one of the log brokers in Vancouver that we use:

The cedar that I've milled for the last five years looks like this when opened up:


Quote from: Fadeev Alexey on November 17, 2016, 11:58:08 AM
.......
I'm not afraid to look stupid or unexperienced, since I could be both from your point of view.
.........
Warmest saunaregards,
Alexey
Alexey, you don't look stupid or inexperienced - actually, first impressions are that you are the opposite.
I worked in Canada's Federal Government for more than 35 years, and I burst out laughing when you said that "...but governmental restrictions shouldn't be logical all of the time". VERY true!
If you have any more questions, fire away Mr Napoleon quoter.  :D
There are many folks on this Forum that are much more experienced than I.
Another Canadian expression:
Be cool and stay warm.
.... Andries ....
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Fadeev Alexey

Thank you for your answers, guys, now I have more questions =)

I haven't got the answer to main question about the restriction of log export from Canada, though.
At least I know that Western red cedar is export-restricted in the United States under the Export Administration Regulations.

Quote from: CCC4 on November 17, 2016, 08:38:49 PM
Well for one, Eastern Red Cedar is the one famous for their smell and color...number two, you seem to be way to picky for your market. Unless you are paying double what China does...why would anyone want to sell to you? The pics you showed as flaws are typical of marketing measurements, Tupi al flaws in the species. Cedar is unique for how it grows and it imperfections. If you want perfect...buy pine. Best of luck, but I would change my marketing strategy. China will smoke you in export out of the States.

Well, I've never heard about Eastern Red Cedar before.
As far as I could gather info through the Internets, Juniperus virginiana grows nearly everywhere in Northern America, it does not grow to big diameters and... it's a Juniper (I know that WRC is actually Thuja), So I'm not sure what will be the % of knotless wood from the log. If it is like 10%, so it doesn't make much sense trying to issue one for another =)
So I would be grateful If you can tell me more about ERC.

Number two... I'm not too picky; I just take into account the demand on Russian market.
People here do not even know about the existence of knotty cedar =).
The main import volume is knotless wood.
I tried to bring knotty cedar at a very low price once...  still has some in my stock. No one buys it. Because it is cheaper than the knotless WRC, but it is way more expensive than many other woods you can buy here.
That's why Chineese can't sell knotty WRC to Russia as well.

Imagine that WRC for us Russians is like a black or red wood from Africa for you (unless of course you are very rich, then it's not  ;D), it is nearly precious. So if you are willing to pay a lot for such wood, it just can't have knots.

One day my friend called me and asked me to come to look at some crazy stuff. He just bought Canadian snowmobile BRP Ski-doo, and once he received the box, he noticed that the additional casing was made from WRC. You cannot imagine how he was surprised, since he has his sauna in WRC and he does know the price.
He said: "What is wrong with Canadians? Why they use such expensive wood for additional casing?". I replied that maybe WRC for them is like a spruce for us, and only transportation makes difference.

Long story short - it does not make much sense for me to buy cheap low quality wood in America, since I have to pay a lot  for transportation. Thus I would rather bring something expensive with assurance, than something for free with risk.

Quote from: Chop Shop on November 18, 2016, 02:20:43 AM
Alexy, Im sorry I cant help you with many of your questions, but welcome to the forum and please enjoy the WRC from here in the PNW.  Its a wonderful wood loved by many.

Thanks! I like this wood as well. I hope I could see it live.

Quote from: Gearbox on November 18, 2016, 02:13:35 PM
You will need a export broker and that would be where you need to start . The wood and quality will come with what you are willing to pay . The broker may have a buyer he uses . Its a place to start . The broker has to make sure all taxes get paid . Also you will need a bank in the US and the money will be in the bank[ US funds] befor the shipment is loaded .

Thanks, Gearbox. Working on it.

Quote from: shelbycharger400 on November 19, 2016, 10:54:46 AM
If your going to be picky on buying, the price always goes up.  Ive had red cedar @24 in dia. That made $50 of sawn lumber, sometimes i got $300.     This is why cedar you use 2/3 . rule.   Cedar is thee biggest pain in the rear to log. It takes 3-4 times as much work.   Ive logged 45 of em a few years ago, had over an hour on each one just cutting the brush off . They produced 3-4 saw logs each at 8 ft even.

2/3 rule - you mean 66% output after sawing?

As far as I understand WRC has a lot knots inside boon.
For knotless wood I go for 2-3 backing boards only. It means a lot turning needed while sawing.
And that's why I search for big diameters.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but usually sawyers leave the knotless backing board for themselves and offer what is left for export (boon is left).

Quote from: OntarioAl on November 19, 2016, 02:36:59 PM
Folks
The gentleman wants high quality Western Red cedar and appears to be willing to pay for quality.
He is not interested in Eastern White nor Eastern Red cedar.
I have cut logs from Eastern White cedar and it is not a high production game. I have not had the privilege of cutting Eastern Red cedar but from the various posts on this forum it is not a fun job either.
Al

That's right, Al!
I knew nothing about ERC, and now I will learn.

Thank you very much for your answers, guys.

Dear Andries, I'll answer later.
Need more history quotes =)




Fadeev Alexey

Quote from: Andries on November 19, 2016, 07:31:36 PM
OK, so I'll try to make a few comments on Western Red Cedar, from the perspective and experience of a Canadian Prairie boy!
Alexey: This is what my logs look like when we get a truck in from British Columbia, Canada.

Nine long logs make a full load for the transport truck.

Old tech spray paint and high tech bar code tag on the same log.

Dear Andries, thank you very much for your detailed answer.

Could you please clarify this to me? That log truck picture you've posted, is it normal quality or maybe you had a hot discussion with your supplier?
I've noticed some certain flaws in the wood.

I just need to understand how you treat such log quality. Is it generally Ok?

Or it is a bad photo and I can't see anything.

Please treat my question correctly. I'm not trying to find fault, I want to understand how you assess the quality of the logs.
And most importantly, how it is possible to find good wood.

Regards,
Alexey


Andries

Alexey:
The details that you point out on the log ends seem to fall into two categories; shake/checks or decay/rotten.

In the past five years, I've only received one log with a small amount of rot/decay in the log. The rest of the log was used, well, we milled around the decay. I'm not sure that anyone would have been able to predict that the rot was there until we opened it up.
Checks and shake are seen often on the log butt ends. This is normal. The causes can be a bad fall when the tree was cut, or too rapid drying since harvest, or any number of other reasons. Generally, the top cuts only show a few checks, also normal.
To sum up - the nine logs on the truck are good quality logs. No "hot discussion" required.  ;D

Here's what we do with the butt ends in order to get the log ready for milling:

Too big to mill, and too big a butt flare to use for building. Some of these are 4 feet in diameter.
Here's another view:

Very large root flare means trimming off, and breaking down that butt end for other uses.
Like this:


You said earlier that you intend to mill the cedar, I'm guessing, into clear planks, lumber and timbers.
For that you'll want to pay for transportation of the top grade of logs without the butt flare attached.
Logs that look like this:

To get logs that maximize your expensive shipping costs, you'll need to provide very clear instructions to your log broker. Even then, with complete instructions, they may or may not be willing or able to provide only 'dreamboat' logs.
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Andries

To find quality logs, you need a quality broker.
Here are two Western Canadian brokers that we use.

The website is on the tag.  www.coll.com

www.husbyforestproducts.com

These brokers can give you much more information about shipping logs from Vancouver, Canada to St Petersburg, Russia.
Me?
I could only make bad guesses !
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Fadeev Alexey

Quote from: Andries on November 25, 2016, 12:37:30 AM
To find quality logs, you need a quality broker.
Here are two Western Canadian brokers that we use.

The website is on the tag.  www.coll.com

www.husbyforestproducts.com

These brokers can give you much more information about shipping logs from Vancouver, Canada to St Petersburg, Russia.
Me?
I could only make bad guesses !


Dear Andries,

thank you for that.

I called these guys and talked to them.
They told me - "No", they cannot sell WRC logs for export. Due to governmental restrictions.

I would have settled down and would end the search if not for one fact: I have seen these logs in China by myself! And I was discussing with Chineese how they process WRC logs.

This whole situation makes me think that there is a way, but it is very special.
I'm not a Canadian citizen, so I don't know how your customs work.

I thought that maybe WRC logs are being declared as something else (Tsuga for instance) in order to be exported?
How legal is this, how do you think?

Beacuse "No" can mean anything from "no" to "maybe" or even "yes, call me".
As an example: Several years ago I arrived Douala Cameroon and went to immigration. I forgot that my passport was expiring in 2-3 month. So border guard told me that it is restricted to enter Cameroon with such document. But he didn't told me to turn around and fly home, he just informed me about the rules. So I said that I have certain recommendations from Andrew Jackson... and it worked.


Regards,
Alexey

Andries

Well Alexey, we've wandered very far away from log quality issues.

Perhaps the folks in China or Japan have found a loophole in regulations, such as calling it "Tsuga" wood.
I'm not sure what that is . . .

Canadian Customs, in my experience, is very straightforward. The regulations are followed. Non of the people that I know play with the rules. It isn't done.
I'm not naive. I've been to Africa for work, and I know the way things work in other parts of the world.
I'm only describing to you how things work in Canada - within my limited experience.
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Quebecnewf

Very interesting . We don't export WRC logs but you have seen them in China .
Are you sure they came from Canada?
I believe cedar grows in other countries ( US)?
At least I think it grows down the west coast and it doesn't end at the US / Canada border?
This is what I think not what I know for sure

Quebecnewf

Andries

You got my curiosity up Quebecnewf - looked it up on Wikipedia.

Listed with all the information was this statement.
Legal status:
Western red cedar is export-restricted in the United States under the Export Administration Regulations.

When I looked that up, there it was:
Category 1 includes crude oil, which is further regulated at 15 CFR 754.2.[5] Other commodities regulated under "short supply" authority (not for national security nor foreign policy reasons) include Western red cedar harvested from public lands in the Lower 48, and horses intended for slaughter.[6]

There it is.
Harvested for use in USA and Canada, but export is restricted, due to short supply.

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BaldBob

Although export of WRC timber logged from public lands  in the US lower 48 is prohibited, and firms that buy public timber are mostly barred from exporting timber they harvest from private land, based on substitution rules, there is a significant amount of WRC harvested from eligible private land.
If you can locate a good reputable timber broker,  he could deal directly with timber purchasers or loggers that work on such lands to find logs that meet your needs. Expect to pay a hefty premium for such high quality logs to be sorted out from the camp run WRC. However, the hefty transport costs may make it worthwhile to only buy what you really want.  The values involved may make it worth your time and expense to make a trip here to meet with possible brokers and principals involved, to make your needs clearly known.

Andries

Bob;
Thanks for the clarification.

If Alexey follows up on this, just to confirm, is his take home message is that private land harvested cedar IS exportable?

... and after thinking about his (probably) astronomical transportation costs, ordering up 20 or 40 foot debarked and turned cedar logs (as in raw utility-pole logs) would be the most cost effective way to stuff a sea container to the gills.

Over to you Alexey.  ;)
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BaldBob

Andries,
In the US, WRC logged from private land that is not owned by companies that are buying Federal timber, is exportable.  By turning WRC logs that are 20-40' long (as in raw utility poles) he might lose too much quality wood given the heavy taper that is often the case with old growth. If he is going to have the logs turned, he should have the heavily tapered ones cut to considerably shorter useable lengths.

reprod

Hi Andries,
I don't believe WRC is exportable from the US.  I've been logging it in private forests for over 25 years and never seen or heard of it being exported.  To be certain, I can put you in contact with brokers/ export log buyers in our area that will answer any of your questions.
Message me and I will send you their names/numbers.
A few things about logs in our area...  Logs are measured by scale (Scribner scale), mbf. 
A typical log truck load of logs will gross scale around 4mbf, 4000 board feet.  (Just an example, could go much lower or higher depending on quality of log and truck hauling capacity). 
A final comment regarding pricing.  WRC is far and away the most expensive logs we sell today (Pacific Northwest).  Prices are usually based on length, but average in the neighborhood of $1200mbf, or around $5000 for a load of logs.
Good luck on your search. 

Fadeev Alexey

Quote from: Quebecnewf on November 27, 2016, 05:43:16 AM
Very interesting . We don't export WRC logs but you have seen them in China .
Are you sure they came from Canada?

Quebecnewf

Yes, I'm sure. They were exported from Canada.
And now, thanks to you guys, I started to understand how it happens. More or less.

Quote from: BaldBob on November 27, 2016, 10:07:22 PM
However, the hefty transport costs may make it worthwhile to only buy what you really want.  The values involved may make it worth your time and expense to make a trip here to meet with possible brokers and principals involved, to make your needs clearly known.

Of course, I understand that I need to go to Canada. I had it in my mind. But to plan a trip makes sense only if I would be able to agree at least with a few sellers. Otherwise great chance to become a tourist.

Quote from: Andries on November 29, 2016, 01:20:54 PM
Bob;
Thanks for the clarification.

If Alexey follows up on this, just to confirm, is his take home message is that private land harvested cedar IS exportable?

... and after thinking about his (probably) astronomical transportation costs, ordering up 20 or 40 foot debarked and turned cedar logs (as in raw utility-pole logs) would be the most cost effective way to stuff a sea container to the gills.

Over to you Alexey.  ;)
Quote from: BaldBob on November 29, 2016, 07:37:01 PM
Andries,
In the US, WRC logged from private land that is not owned by companies that are buying Federal timber, is exportable.  By turning WRC logs that are 20-40' long (as in raw utility poles) he might lose too much quality wood given the heavy taper that is often the case with old growth. If he is going to have the logs turned, he should have the heavily tapered ones cut to considerably shorter useable lengths.

It sounds optimistic for me. There is a way; I just need to find my own path.

Debarked and turned then...

Regarding the heavily tapered logs. Due to my range of products, I don't need long ones.
16-20 feet is enough. So I won't suffer a lot because of it.
I'm just afraid that no one will want to chop the logs so short.

Quote from: reprod on November 30, 2016, 12:54:26 AM
Hi Andries,
I don't believe WRC is exportable from the US.  I've been logging it in private forests for over 25 years and never seen or heard of it being exported.  To be certain, I can put you in contact with brokers/ export log buyers in our area that will answer any of your questions.
Message me and I will send you their names/numbers.
A few things about logs in our area...  Logs are measured by scale (Scribner scale), mbf. 
A typical log truck load of logs will gross scale around 4mbf, 4000 board feet.  (Just an example, could go much lower or higher depending on quality of log and truck hauling capacity). 
A final comment regarding pricing.  WRC is far and away the most expensive logs we sell today (Pacific Northwest).  Prices are usually based on length, but average in the neighborhood of $1200mbf, or around $5000 for a load of logs.
Good luck on your search. 


Wow.
Scribner scale http://extension.oregonstate.edu/clackamas/sites/default/files/4d_-_duemling-_scribner_scale.pdf

We have "kubaturnik" - same thing coming from soviet times. Only very old and experienced foresters use this method.

Correct me if I'm wrong, 1mbf=2,36m3.
Thus, average price for WRC is $1200mbf=$508,5m3
Does it apply for debarked and turned logs as well?

Best wishes,
Alexey






Andries

Quote from: BaldBob on November 29, 2016, 07:37:01 PM
Andries,
In the US, WRC logged from private land that is not owned by companies that are buying Federal timber, is exportable.  By turning WRC logs that are 20-40' long (as in raw utility poles) he might lose too much quality wood given the heavy taper that is often the case with old growth. If he is going to have the logs turned, he should have the heavily tapered ones cut to considerably shorter useable lengths.

Thanks Bob, it looks like Alexey can get WRC from the States.
I suggested logs cut to standard shipping container lengths.
The cost to ship from Western USA or Canada to St Petersburg would be obscene high.  :o
So, packing all that you can into a container is the way to save some money.

Quote from: reprod on November 30, 2016, 12:54:26 AM
Hi Andries,
I don't believe WRC is exportable from the US.  I've been logging it in private forests for over 25 years and never seen or heard of it being exported.  To be certain, I can put you in contact with brokers/ export log buyers in our area that will answer any of your questions.
Message me and I will send you their names/numbers.
A few things about logs in our area...  Logs are measured by scale (Scribner scale), mbf. 
A typical log truck load of logs will gross scale around 4mbf, 4000 board feet.  (Just an example, could go much lower or higher depending on quality of log and truck hauling capacity). 
A final comment regarding pricing.  WRC is far and away the most expensive logs we sell today (Pacific Northwest).  Prices are usually based on length, but average in the neighborhood of $1200mbf, or around $5000 for a load of logs.
Good luck on your search.
Reprod:
Thanks for the cost estimates.
We're seeing the $1000 - $1200 mbf here (Canada) as well.
Alexey in St Petersburg, Russia wants to source WRC for milling in his country.
Perhaps he could PM you, to get the USA log broker contacts.
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