Standing trees killed by drought

[jasonb]

There is a terrible drought here in my part of south Louisiana and trees are dying.  Mostly what looks like Water Oaks(or at least that is what I call them) and pine trees.  I can see that come spring when these don't have any leaves that these will be cut down.  Will these trees be any good to saw?  I am interested in the pine trees mostly.  If I can get my hands on some Red Oaks, will they be worth sawing?

[Southside]

The oaks will keep better standing dead than the pine will, time is definitely the enemy here, and with pine it isn't kind.  

[esteadle]

if there is any green at all on them, they will be fine for sawing.
If the bark is intact and not falling off in sheets, you will make usable lumber, if not showpiece stuff.
I say get the logs and saw the boards.

[Magicman]

Anything that died this year is good to saw.  We are also seeing an outbreak of Pine Beetles.  

We had a freeze in March killed many Oak leaves making the trees have to put on a second set of leaves.  This stress coupled with the drought is having a devastating affect on our Oak trees.  LINK

The portable sawmilling business will be wide open next year.  Matter of fact I am already getting calls and I am already giving January appointments.  Two calls today.

[Ianab]

Salvage what you can. How long a standing dead tree is usable depends on species and climate. May be months, to several years.  Take care felling dead trees, the wood may be weaker, or the tree may shed branches from high up. Again, the fresher they are, the less hazard.

[jasonb]

I won't be cutting any of the trees.  I will get them through my friend that owns a tree service.

I have a small construction company and drive a 50 mile radius weekly.  It is amazing to see how many trees are dying.  The oaks were stressed during Hurricane Ida.  All Live Oaks are showing no signs of dying.

[kelLOGg]

We had a severe (to me) drought in 2022 and Davy Tree told me we would see trees dying in near future. Maples seem to be taking the brunt of it on my property. Most are only firewood size except for this one: Get a rope thru tree crotch? in Forestry and Logging (forestryforum.com) which I hope to fell soon. 
I wish we could help NYC and re-distribute some of their water, but I'm not in control.

[jpassardi]

In CT we've had record rain the last few months... Goes to show how regional weather can be.

[kelLOGg]

And regional can be micro climate too. For years I have noticed dark clouds, thunder and rain 3 miles north of my property near the city and we get no rain. I haven't tabulated our rainfall for comparison purposes but it certainly seems like we get less. Micro-regional rainfall would be an interesting meteorological study if it hasn't already been done. 

[esteadle]

Maybe a topic for the Forestry threads, but if you have a weather site subscription, you can usually superimpose satellite imagery over the current radar and satellite composites, zoom in, and if you have the time and patience, literally watch moisture rise from the forest, mix with the upper levels of atmosphere, moisture, and pressure systems, and see it rain down in real time. 

When I used to mountain bike in Ocala, across the florida greenways, we would giggle as we dodged rainclouds on our 30 mile epic bike rides by watching the early morning radar and 'ridin round the rain'.

[Ianab]

And regional can be micro climate to

Especially if you have some serious geography around. Growing up we lived up at the base of the local Mt. Annual rainfall was significantly different from the top of the farm to the house, 2 miles and 500 ft vertical away. Around 200 inches up in the National Park, down to about 60" at the coast, maybe 15 miles away.  Extend that into a range of Mts and a prevailing wind and you get rainforest on one side, and near desert about 20 miles away. 

[jasonb]

In CT we've had record rain the last few months... Goes to show how regional weather can be.

Bad part is that the rain has totally missed my little community.  A line of rain will be coming towards us, split before it gets to us, then reform after it passes.  Last winter it started raining in November and didn't stop until late February.  My sawmill area had 4" of mud for all of that time.

[Southside]

We are on a flat plateau, maybe 20 square miles or so, and in the summer you can count on storms splitting and going around us.  I have had folks standing here with phone in hand watching the radar as the storms approach only to leave a white spot right where we are, dry as a bone and 2 miles south or east it is raining.  

[Ianab]

So you can imagine the effect an 8,000 ft Mt sitting alone has on the local weather. Basically it's a rain magnet. A bit like a small hilly Island in the middle of open ocean.

But if you are downwind of that feature, you are in it's rain shadow, 

[Magicman]

The Pine Beetle kill situation that we are entering will be of epic proportions.  

The job that I finished this morning was from Beetle killed SYP but the reason for sawing was that the customer wanted lumber and had killed trees.  Not visa-versa.  

I got my first job last night that the reason for the sawing will be to salvage some value from killed trees.  The customer has no real need for the lumber, just does not want the trees to be wasted.  

I have already mentioned it several times; the portable sawmilling business here will be wide open for the next couple of years. 

[jasonb]

Finally have some rain here today.  Slow and steady all and into the night.  Hopefully the rain and cooler weather will not kill any more trees than what is already lost.

[handhewn]

I've got more dead/dying beetle plagued yellow pine on my property alone than I could possibly saw even if that's all I did seven days a week. and everybody else around me has the same beetle problem. It is very bad here particularly yellow pine. There are piles of beautiful logs all over town. Many of these piles have been offered to me for free. Can't hardly sell "blued" yellow pine hereabouts so all those logs will go to rot. My cedar, oak, fir, etc., seem to be doing fine so as far as the beetles are concerned.

[Magicman]

Yes Sir, we have an epidemic portion of Beetle killed SYP as far as the eye can see.  It could be described as a catastrophe or worse.  

[jasonb]

MM

I got a call last week from a guy in the back of my neighborhood.  He has about 7 pines that will need to come down due to pine beetles.

Gonna be a busy winter cutting pine I think.

[Magicman]

The Pine Beetle outbreak Coupled with the March Oak freeze and then the drought, I am predicting one of the busiest portable sawmilling years ever.

[jasonb]

Magicman

I made a run to Jackson yesterday.  Looks like you will be a busy man next spring.  Never saw so many dead trees before.

[Magicman]

Yes, it is depressing and I feel for the landowners who have dying trees, including myself.  I'll saw theirs but I have no time to salvage my own.  They will become termite food.

[KenMac]

MM check with WoodMizer and see if you can locate a local mobile sawyer to help you out........

[Magicman]

Yeah, come on over.  A Cooks sawmill would be just fine.  

My time is much more valuable ($$) sawing for others than it would be falling, skidding, bucking, and sawing my trees especially when I do not have a need for lumber.  Those falling dead trees, briers, and the open canopy will make great wildlife habitat.

[KenMac]

I decided very quickly that my Cook's mill won't be leaving the pole barn unless it's sold. Cook's can be mobile,but not esily like WM's. Thanks for the offer though.

[moodnacreek]

There is no worse time to cut pine than in the spring. Right now is the time.

[Magicman]

Landowners will be recovering/salvaging logs this Winter and next year's sawing will be "take a number and get in line".  

[Sod saw]

.   


Sounds like Magicman is about to "un-retire".


.

[Magicman]

I drove to Baton Rouge Saturday and the dead Pine trees along I55 is horrendous.  I am saying that this is more Pine Beetle killed but the trees were already stressed from the drought.  

The Oaks that were stressed from the freeze in March coupled with the drought had already turned brown so it will be Spring before we can see what the long term situation is with them.

I have not retired but during this year I have refused and/or passed off sawing jobs that mostly were over ~40 miles away.  I am already getting calls that I am giving "no sooner than January" and probably beyond that.  I told one caller that his logs would be good as long as they were sawn before Summer and he was OK with that.

I have a 22 log job scheduled for Dec 1st-2nd and a "whole house" framing lumber job to look at probably tomorrow.  He has 29 logs on the ground and still falling and skidding. 

Yup, tighten my drawers because it's gonna be a wild ride next year.  :

[doc henderson]

MM is there enough benefit to have a helper?  i.e. are any grandsons interested on taking over the sawmill business?  say in 20 years or so when you retire?

[Magicman]

With the customers providing help there is benefit to me.  (It was during the Covid thing when help was not available and Luke helped me.)

Ben & Luke are deep into the fiber optics placing business with Marty, so the sawmill business will fad away with me. 

[Den-Den]

Generally, I consider dead pines to be still OK when some pine cones are still attached but I have not found an indicator that is 100% valid.  Earlier this year I cut several dead pines that had died about the same time.  Quality of the wood varied from excellent to not worth sawing.  Be careful about buying dead pine logs, it would be painful to have to burn logs that you paid for.

[jasonb]

MM

I was really shocked at the amount of dead trees along I-55.  

[Magicman]

Yes, it is really bad, actually depressing.  I looked at a whole house sawing job this morning that has 29 logs bunched now and will need at least 100.  All of them are bucked to 17'.  I am expecting that the entire job will be from beetle killed trees.  This job is scheduled to begin sawing January 8th.

[MacFly]

Beetle kill in CO is actually what sparked this journey into milling for me.  They're really taking a toll on the property where I'll be working, so I'll have plenty of trees to learn on at least.  Although the more I learn the more I think that a fair bit will end up as firewood rather than lumber.  This site has been a really great resource.

[Magicman]

I made a trip to New Orleans & back Monday and really got my eyes filled with dead Pine trees.

My phone is ringing and I am now giving February scheduling.  Two calls yesterday. 

[Magicman]

 I was back at my Tree Farm today.


 

 All of the Pine trees in these pictures are dying or dead.

Pine Pulp is now bringing 50¢ per ton to the landowner so mine will die, fall, and rot in place.  Absolutely NO dead logs can be brought to the wood yard.  One dead log/tree in the load gets the entire load rejected.

[Magicman]

I met with a Forester and a Logger today and we made a "drive through" and looked at my Pine planted property.  They will go back and make a "cruise" and determine whether cutting the "chip and saw" and recovering the collateral pulp trees would be profitable.  I will be satisfied with whatever they decide.

[Southside]

How many acres do you have that are impacted? Would it be a complete harvest if you do go ahead with it?

[Magicman]

Approximately 60 acres encompassed by about 75 acres, but I will not clearcut it.  My objective to to cut all of the chip and saw and leave as much pulp as possible.  Yes, some or maybe all of what I leave may eventually die from beetles, but economics will not enter into this decision.  If I leave it, it may die, but if I harvest it, it did die.

Everything now depends upon the results of the cruise.  If there is not enough chip and saw to make it economical to harvest, nothing will happen.  If nothing happens, I may very well watch the entire tract die in place.  18 years down the drain.  Hindsight says that I should have set the entire open property in hardwood, but as my Dad always said; "Opportunity knocks once and then kicks you in the butt and walks away".

[Southside]

From the sounds of it had you planted it into hardwood your oak would be having serious issues too.  You made the move that was the best at the time, that's all you can go on.  Nothing says you can't replant the harvested pine to Gum.   :D

[Walnut Beast]

I feel for you Magicman!

[customsawyer]

The drought will put the trees in a stress or kill them out right. The pines it doesn't kill tend to get hit hard by beetles. There are is a place here in mid GA. that will take some of the dead trees for pulp as long as they have a good working relationship with the logger and know that they won't put trees on the truck that have been dead to long. Normally requires pictures to show that there is still a little bit of green in a few needles though. 

[Magicman]

The portions of the property where I planted Oaks are in good shape.  Hindsight says that I should not have planted Pine, only Oak.

The sawmills here are so overburdened with Pine, that they will take NO dead trees/logs.  One dead tree will reject the entire load.  The woodyards are completely full and the loggers are on a quota and can only deliver so many loads on their designated days. 

If mine is approved, it will be the chip and saw that pushes it into approval.  If it was entirely pulp, it would be rejected/passed over.  Mine was planted on 10-12 spacing in 2005 so 18 years and it has never been thinned.  I was not planning to harvest anything for another 5 years.

Mature Oak/hardwood forest are another story.  It will be next Summer before landowners realize how much loss that they have.  First from the freeze that we had in late March that killed the new leaves coupled with the severe drought this Summer.  It is not going to be good.

I am now telling potential sawing customers that it will be March or probably later before I could even talk to them about sawing.  It ain't good.

[Southside]

I see the same thing coming here with reference to not being able to market pine.  I don't know of a single hardwood planting that has happened around me at all.  Way too much pine and only a couple of options to sell it to. 

[jpassardi]

That's a shame Lynn. I hate seeing waste.

[Kit B]

Wow, what a nightmare, as a person with a couple hundred acres of planted pines I can only imagine the anguish.

[Magicman]

My timbered property is and has always been principally hardwood with only a sprinkling of Pine.  There are ~250 acres of hardwood.  I acquired the property in 2004, and machine planted the open land/fields in 2005 with Pine because it was the simple thing to do.  Also the business plan looked good.  The total acreage is 346.5; half inherited and half bought.   The property taxes are $14 per acre per year so owning property ain't cheap.  That plus I lease an additional 500 acres for hunting and recreation.


 
My property is red and 200 acres of the lease is yellow.  The remaining 300 leased acres are not shown.  The open fields in the top (North) portion are what are now planted Pine.  The Cabin is in the top right and the "Strawfield" is in the center.  The two brown portions are food plots.

[thecfarm]

Never know what mother nature will do to you.  :(

[Magicman]

I noticed today that the MDOT has a large cutter on the Interstate falling dead plus the nearby SYP trees.  The downed trees are being bunched/piled rather than being hauled.  I have no idea whether they will be burned or ??

[Texas Ranger]

Texas has standing dead pine trees from the Red River to the Gulf..  Ther is no way even a small percentage will be harvested.  All drought killed, some oak as well.  Bettles have not been a problem for years, other than Ips, and they have taken advantage of the drought.

[doc henderson]

Happy birthday Tex!

[customsawyer]

So the drought was bad enough to kill pines from TX. through MS. Maybe further. That is a lot of wood to be taken out of the market. It might raise demand in some other areas. I hate it for the ones that are effected. It's a shame to put in the funds, time, and effort to get a stand close to harvest, just to lose it with no return.

[Texas Ranger]

Happy birthday Tex!

Thanks, Doc, received an unexpected gift, an email I have inherited 5.5 million from an unknown source! Gee, I wonder if that Nigerian Prince that kept mailing me has finally died?   

[doc henderson]

  8) 8) 8)

[Woodpecker52]

Would be curious as to is it slash and loblolly pine that are most effected, or is longleaf pine faring better under the drought and beetle infestation?  In our delta town all the pine trees have died, but they are being killed by the herbicide drift clouds from all the pre,pending,post emergence continually never ending 2-4d mix concoctions they are coming up with, since roundup ready is dead around here.  Even the cypress trees are looking like sick toothpicks.  Looks like people forgot about agent orange days of Vietnam. Chemicals they use now volatizes and drifts and settles at night for weeks. It will only increase in the future since the embrace of no till and cover crops.  The cover is being sprayed and killed before planting, it is sickening around here.  I swear it looks like one big flat dirt patch with sick trees everywhere.

[Magicman]

I am not going to dispute what Woodpecker52 said above but what I am seeing is Drought and Pine Beetle weakened/killed trees.  Certainly not the herbicide drift that he described.


 
This is the first time that I have ever seen a Magnolia tree die.  It is directly across the street from us.


 
Here is a completely dead Pine in my next door neighbor's yard.  It's less than 50' from....


 
The 8 Pine trees in my front yard.  The closest one has two small dead limbs which I hope is not an indication of full infection.   

[Magicman]

A closer examination this afternoon showed dead branches in at least 4 trees which range from 25" to 31" DBH.  I have a tree service coming tomorrow afternoon to take a look. 

[Ianab]

Are they lower branches that would naturally be shed over time?

[Magicman]

No, Pine Beetles fly from the infected tree to another and generally start toward the crown of the tree.  The tops are what you first notice.  As you can see from my front yard trees, they have self pruned and the crowns are about all that is there.  It's about 50 feet to the lowest significant limb.  Each tree will easily make three 16' relatively knot free logs and then a 12'.

As you can see in my last picture in the top left corner, the neighbor's tree limbs are no more than 10'-15' from my tree limbs.

I'm good to "wait and see" before doing a complete removal, but I'll listen to what my tree service guy says.  This is sickening.   

[cutterboy]

MM, I know how you feel as my ash trees are dying from EAB. :-\

[jasonb]

This is the first time that I have ever seen a Magnolia tree die.  It is directly across the street from us.

I have seen several Magnolias dead around here.  There are 4 water oaks in a row across the street from my house, 2 got hit by a twister about 5 years ago.  Those 2 are dead and the others are living.  It makes me wonder about the stress that the drought has placed on the trees around my community.

[Magicman]

I saw another dead Magnolia yesterday.  Planted (ornamental) Cedars are dead and dying by the hundreds.  I have not seen any dead "natural" mature Cedar trees....yet.   

My tree service guy will not be here to give me an estimate on my Pine trees until tomorrow.

[Magicman]

The tree service guy came by and did his thing.  A "ball park" figure is $1k per tree to remove and cleanup which is about what I had figured.

I'll wait until warm weather and see if I am infested.  I am certainly well exposed with Pine Beetles on three sides and less than 50 feet away.

[Southside]

That's a better rate than around here for sure.

[Ianab]

Tree jobs depend so much on the actual job. A medium size tree, able to be dropped whole into an open space and chipped. Couple of guys, couple of hours, job done, take the $1,000 and on to the next tree.

Another tree, big spreading thing hanging over a house? Crane ($$) or a bigger crew taking 2 days to rig it down?  Yeah the bill goes up for sure.

The Cypress i sawed some of last year was a standing dead tree on the town reserve. Took a 4 man crew 2 days, and that was basically just bombing it down because nothing valuable under it. But the job wouldn't have been cheap, even leaving about a 10ft tall x 6ft dia stump standing. The tree was on the reserve land, but access was via a homeowners section. He got about 3 years of firewood and all the garden mulch he will even need from it. Also a new back fence, reseeded lawn and some new trees planted on the reserve side of the new fence. The crew were happy to leave some 3ft dia upper logs intact, as that meant less work for them.

[Magicman]

Yup, different prices for different trees.  I actually ended up with 10 trees when I added two Oaks to the mix.  The Oaks will not require any cleanup because I will recover the logs and firewood.  Two are overhanging the power primary and one is completely overhanging my shop.

Two were $1800 each and two were $850 each.  The overall average was. $1000.  Now I wait to see if I have Beetle kill and to what extent.

[Magicman]

So the Dead SYP saga continues:

This morning I went to get my sawmill for tomorrow's sawing job and found this:


 
Yes, it could have been much worse.  Marty had told me that a limb had fallen across the sawmill but I did not expect this.  You can see the umbrella detached from it's mounting above.


 Knocked the swagged top off of the ball.  I failed to swag it back so I took the torch and brazing rods and


 Brazed 6 little anvils for the ball to press against.  It worked.


 
My "brandy spanking new" seat had a ragged hole punched in it.


 
From experience I know full well that neither tape nor anything else will fix the tear so I'll have to order another seat.  I have seen a product advertised on the web that I will try if I can find it again.  I think that it is what @Jeff used on his backhoe seat.

Anyway, the sawmill should be good to go tomorrow morning if we survive the forecast blow that we will get tonight.  The prediction is for strong damaging winds, strong tornadoes (EF2+) and large hail possible tonight.   

[beenthere]

Bummer MM   :(

[Southside]

Revenge of the Pine Tree

[caveman]

I just caught up on this from back in the fall.  I'm sorry to see so many of your trees dying.  Thankfully your trusty LT-40 did not get damaged too bad.  It's tough to lose crops, especially when the rotation is 20-50 years or more. 

Are y'all getting any of this El Nino wet winter weather that we have been getting?  My pond was nearly dry in October but has been filling up some since.  Usually, October is the beginning of our dry season.

[Magicman]

According to the map, we are still in a certified drought.  We would normally be sopping wet right now but instead we are powder dry.  I have not measured my pond, but the pier is completely out of the water and at high water, it is 6'.

[Magicman]

From experience I know full well that neither tape nor anything else will fix the tear so I'll have to order another seat.  I have seen a product advertised on the web that I will try if I can find it again.

I have very limited expectations for the success, but I ordered a sheet of repair material today. 

[jasonb]

Bunch of rain here the last few weeks and the most rain since last winter has fallen today.

MM

Bad break about your sawmill.  Good thing the operator wasn't in the seat.

[Magicman]

The effects of the drought & Pine Beetle kills are showing up big time with folks calling.

A previous customer called yesterday stating there are ~60 large Pines being taken down which have ~22"-34" butts.  They will each make two or three 16' logs plus a 12' before reaching the bottom limbs.  That will be a whale of a job that I really do not want to saw.

Another previous customer called this morning that I have not returned the call yet. 

I knew that the sawing opportunity would be crazy this year and it is only beginning.  :-\

[beenthere]

Lynn
You are the one in charge. Move forward at your pace, not someone else's desires. Please.

[Magicman]

Another previous customer called this morning that I have not returned the call yet. 

I successfully got rid of that one.  ;)

[jasonb]

I can see a lot of opportunity to saw many logs coming up this spring.  I need to clear my workload to prepare.

[Magicman]

Yup, years ago I would have eagerly welcomed it but I am cutting back on my sawing and being choosy about the jobs that I take.  Problem is that there is no one to pass them off to.  My regular buddy is as booked as I am, or maybe more so.

I can only saw what I can saw.

[beenthere]

 Problem is that there is no one to pass them off to

Someone will step in and pick up the slack, and it just may be one of your customers in need. 

[Magicman]

Well this unseen and unknown person with a sawmill had better be showing up quickly because he is needed now. 

I drove I55 to Jackson yesterday and the highway dept has dropped thousands of trees and windrowed them in the median.  There is no way that anyone that has not actually seen this can begin to imagine how many dead SYP trees that we have.

[Magicman]

Some of my dire predictions regarding us sawyers becoming swamped with calls are coming true.  Landowners are beginning to fall trees, buck them into logs, and calling for sawing.  I am getting calls daily and we are only at the beginning.  Even with passing off jobs that are ~30+ miles away, I still have 22 names in my schedule book.  I can't pass any more off because he is overbooked too.  No sawing this week because of the rain.

I have read suggestions on here several times that one way to weed out the callers is to raise your sawing rates, so I have.  So far that has not reduced anything because folks are still asking "when".

I am an old man but I do not want to quit nor sell my sawmill, just slow down. 

[jasonb]

You need to schedule more vacations.

[Magicman]

And charge more for sawing so I can afford them.

[Magicman]

Our next door neighbor marked two trees for removal today:

This about 26" butt White Oak that hopefully I can get when it is taken down.  I am hoping for a couple of 12' logs plus the firewood.  White Oak is not a favorite firewood for me but this is too lose to be choosy.  This is the donor tree that has provided a couple of boxes of acorns that I shipped to Chuck White.

And then this ~34" butt SYP that I do not want any part of. 

[doc henderson]

the white pine could make framing to build a shed to store all your many cords of firewood.  

[Magicman]

It would probably be a "safe" yard tree and it is close.  Easily a couple of 16's or 20's.  MMmmmm.

[jpassardi]

Lynn,

Curious why you don't like WO for firewood, it has a lot of btu's/is dense but is slow to dry like all oaks.

[Magicman]

Oak is all that I ever burn and it is recovered from blow downs at the farm.  I do not remember the last time that I felled a tree for firewood.  At least 30+ years.

White Oak is much slower to dry and it also leaves considerably more ashes.  Given a choice, and I usually have one, Cherrybark Red Oak is my first choice with Water Oak being second. 

[jasonb]

And charge more for sawing so I can afford them.

I think that you might be creating a new business plan.

[Magicman]

Yup, repeat customers and those in the schedule book will remain @ the "old" sawing rate.  Any new customers will be @ the new rate.  Travel & setup and return trip cost will remain the same.

This is not such a big deal and if it will somewhat reduce my sawing load without significantly reducing my income it will be good.  

Fact is that I have no idea what any competition is charging.  Don't matter, don't care.  My rates are based on my expenses and to produce a good rate of return.

[Magicman]

I attended my County Forestry Field Day this past weekend and learned that our major Pine problem is Ips Beetles LINK attacking drought, etc. stressed trees.

The advice that I was given regarding the beetle killed Pines on my property is to do nothing.  Possibly damaging healthy trees plus creating slash piles would/could be more harmful than trying to stop them.  Let nature take it's course.

I called my logger that had looked at it and he was actually happy about my decision.  He said that due to his age and not being able to get help, he is now passing work on to another logger and is retiring.  He is closing his 50 year operation and selling out.

[customsawyer]

The beetles sure like weakened trees. regardless of why they are.