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How to avoid discoloring of timbers when storing them outside?

Started by Piston, July 20, 2013, 07:09:57 PM

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Piston

I'd like to mill some timbers for a project I plan on starting this winter.  I won't start milling the timbers until at least September, and more than likely October.  I don't have an indoor place to store them, so I'm wondering how I should store them outside? 

I know to keep them up off the ground to avoid insects/dampness, stickered to allow good airflow, and covered to minimize the rain/snow/sun effects on the timbers.  The problem is I don't really know the best way to cover them? 

I really don't want the timbers to fade.  I know that over time they will, which is fine, but I don't want them fading due to the sunlight beating on them before they even become a building.  Are there any tricks to keeping the timbers from fading?  They are going to be almost all eastern white pine. 

I was thinking I pretty much have two options:
One: build a structure over my pile of timbers, and cover with tarps, keeping good airflow and space between the timbers and tarp. 

Two: purchase one of those Shelter Logic type portable garages.  They come with either open sides, or closed sides.  Would this be a better bet? 


How long can the timbers sit outside, stacked and stickered, uncovered if milled in the Fall, and not discolor?  Would I notice them looking "older" in one month, two months etc? 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

I think a book I read about storing lumber/timbers said to have the bottom of the stack at least 18" off the ground in order to allow air flow through the bottom of the stack when there is snow on the ground.

Some people go and find a free stack of pallets and make up a stack to place their timbers on.
I stack my timbers outside and I usually have 1x2x4 air dried pine stickers between the rows, 2' oc.

What others have recommended and have used is a "cover"

I made one and I do use it over a pile that I need to move shortly after a snow storm, that is expected before the customer gets his lumber/timbers.

This cover is basically a giant pallet with boards on top that prevent the snow from going down into or onto the pile underneath.
This cover is the same length as the lumber.
I made mine 16' long as that is usually the longest lengths of lumber/timbers that I will be milling or storing.

My cover looks like this:



 

You see that there is two layers of boards to prevent the snow/water from going between the boards on the first layer.
Now in my case I use my fork lift to set this "cover" over the pile. After the snow storm I pick off this cover and shovel the snow off it.
Then it is a lot lighter and is easy to move around.

Using just a cover will keep the rain water off and allows the sides and ends to be open.

If your stack is out in the sun it will darken the timbers.

There are some timbers that you can put on the outside of the stack that may have sides that won't show inside the frame. Such as the bottom of sills, the outside of posts, the tops of plates, or outside edges of plates. So if these timbers were put along the outside of the piles and they darkened then it shouldn't matter.
However you're going to have to inspect and label these timbers and select them up front to make sure the nice timbers you don't want to have darken can be in the center of the rows.

I don't know if there are chemicals that you can apply to your timbers, there could be. But I don't know about them or use them.

Good luck with your project and as you know, light woods darken with age, and dark wood lighten with age.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Dave Shepard

You've got to keep the sun off of them. It doesn't take long to make a difference. I have timbers stacked in the shop near a window and the part that gets sun is darker. In this instance, it is actually beneficial, as the new parts are really bright, and it looks better against the old, salvaged parts. If pine gets wet and dry and is in the sun it will turn gray/silver. It's also going to check in the sun. I have made a couple of dozen of those covers Jim shows, and I staple Tyvek on the top to keep the water out. I think one of those cover-it buildings with the ends open so the sun is only shining on the end grain would be best. Try to orient it so the wind blows through the ends. If you are sawing pine in October, you can cover it up pretty well, as long as it's stickered.

You could also cut your timbers, leave them around, then then fake hew them when you are ready to cut the joinery. :D
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

D L Bahler

How do you plan to finish the timbers?

If you will plane them, then just wait till you are ready to go, plane them, join, and assemble. Planing will remove the darkening.

With white pine, you might have to watch out for blue stain too.

Piston

Thanks for the info and diagram Jim! 


Quote from: Dave Shepard on July 20, 2013, 08:30:34 PM
You could also cut your timbers, leave them around, then then fake hew them when you are ready to cut the joinery. :D
Dave, Are you kidding me?  I'm ALREADY overwhelmed by the amount of work this is going to be!   :D


Quote from: D L Bahler on July 20, 2013, 09:25:39 PM
How do you plan to finish the timbers?

If you will plane them, then just wait till you are ready to go, plane them, join, and assemble. Planing will remove the darkening.

With white pine, you might have to watch out for blue stain too.
I don't plan on putting any type of finish on them, and I'm not sure about planing them yet.  I "think" I would like to plane them, but at the same time I like the rustic look of rough sawn.  I'm not decided on this yet, but I figure I better make a decision before I start milling, as I think I'd need to mill them slightly oversized if I planned on planing them. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

What are these timbers going to be used for?

The reason why I ask is if it's a shop or outbuilding then rough sawn timbers would be fine.
If it's going to be a home then you most likely will want the showing surfaces planed.
The reason why they should be planed is to keep the timbers clean and smooth.

When we first started looking at timbers at my first timber framing class the timbers were all planed, all four sides to a true full inch dimension. One of my classmates asked the instructor "why planed timbers".
He told us of the story about making timber framed homes all around Maine for many years. And how several years after he had made a home for some people; how he would go back and visit with them to see how they liked the home he had built for them. He told us how the "wife" of the customer would say how much they enjoyed the timber frame home. But how the timbers; with the rough sawn (circular sawn) face looked dusty and gray from dust. How she tried and tried with her vacuum to make them look clean. But that the dust had settled into the rough sawn surface and no matter how hard she tried to vacuum it out with her brush on the end of her vacuum tubes that she couldn't get them to "look clean".

And how he had heard this from several different women.

After that he decided that every frame he cut that was going to be a home would have planed timbers. Oiled or not the timbers are smooth and the dust doesn't settle into the surface and it is easier to "keep clean". And you know the old saying: "happy wife = happy life"....

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Dave Shepard

Fake hewing, or "fewing", as it's sometimes known, or hand planing, is about 2 minutes a square foot. In pine. In dry white oak it's about 2 hours a square foot, but that includes the years of counseling you'll need when it's all over.  :D

I wholeheartedly agree with Jim on the hand planing for interior timbers. Outbuildings I wouldn't worry as much about the dust.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

D L Bahler

I agree with the planing for homes camp, rough for workspaces.

There is a very long tradition of making the timbers that show in homes very nice and smooth. Some places even go to this extent in the barn parts as well, taking tremendous pride in their work

Piston

Jim,
EXCELLENT words of advice!  Planed timbers it is, for that one reason only. 

To answer your question though, the plan as of now, is to build it as a workshop at first, and then eventually there is a good chance it will either become a cabin, or become "part of" a cabin, by adding on to it for some more living space.  So since there is a good chance it will be living space someday, and because I do like the look of the timbers, and because my wife is absolutely OCD about cleanliness, then it just makes sense to plane them all. 

Do I need to mill the timbers oversized at all, or no since I'll be doing square rule layout?  I'd like to plane them before I start cutting joinery but I've read that it's better to do it both ways, both before, and after. 

Dave,
It looks like that plane you gave me may be getting a workout  ;D 

Quote from: D L Bahler on July 21, 2013, 09:18:34 AM
There is a very long tradition of making the timbers that show in homes very nice and smooth. Some places even go to this extent in the barn parts as well, taking tremendous pride in their work
I'm all for tradition.   smiley_thumbsup
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Jim_Rogers

I, also, have seen it done both ways, that is before or after cutting joinery.

If it was me, I'd do it after. Then you'll know which faces have to be planed and which do not. The none showing faces don't need to be planed. Why waste all your time planning a face that is not going to show?
And planning after will make a nice clean look removing any extra lines and bad knife cuts.

Jim Rogers

PS. I would not mill them over sized. The amount you're going to "hand plane" off will be very little and won't affect the size of the timber much.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

logman

I just sand my timbers with a 6" random orbit sander as long as they are bandsawn.  It gets them just as smooth as planed.  You would still want to sand them even if you plane them to get the planer marks out.  There is a chemical called Anti-Blu that prevents sap stain.  I haven't tried it yet but I plan to because I hate sap stain.  I bought a metal carport to store my timbers under.  It's a good cheap way to store them and you can always use it as a carport when you're done with it.  Mine has the sides covered but open on the ends. 
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor, Genie GTH5519 telehandler
M&K Timber Works

Piston

Alright, after it is....

In this case, planing only the visible faces after cutting all the joinery, will it matter much if they darken at all?  will I "freshen" up the timbers to look like new if I'm only taking a 1/32" or so off with planing? 

I know that blue stain can go deep, and I'll try like heck to avoid it, but if I don't have to worry as much about never letting the sunlight hit them, it would make it a lot easier. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Dave Shepard

That will work fine. I just did a test on a piece of dunnage that was dark gray and it cleaned up nicely. I will post a pic later, or if you pm your email I can send it from my phone if you really desperate to see it. :D

Hand planing leaves a slightly undulating surface depending on how you do it. No sanding required for hand planing. For machine planed I would use a different iron that was flatter, and plane with the grain. I can go into more detail later.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Piston

Quote from: Dave Shepard on July 22, 2013, 08:53:48 AM
That will work fine. I just did a test on a piece of dunnage that was dark gray and it cleaned up nicely. I will post a pic later, or if you pm your email I can send it from my phone if you really desperate to see it. :D

Hand planing leaves a slightly undulating surface depending on how you do it. No sanding required for hand planing. For machine planed I would use a different iron that was flatter, and plane with the grain. I can go into more detail later.

That's okay Dave, I can do a test plane on some weathered lumber I have out back, but thanks for the offer. 

....Now...I just need to get that extension built for my mill, so I can actually mill these longer timbers  :D
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

Dave Shepard

This was with a very dull block plane, but probably not any more passes than you would normally take to remove the saw marks.



Hand planing you usually go across the grain at a slight angle, closer to 90° than in the pic, with a slightly rounded iron in the plane. You can go with the length of the timber, but across is a more traditional method and appearance.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Piston

Wow, that's actually really cool  smiley_thumbsup

Thanks Dave, now I'm not so worried about the timbers anymore.  I would have thought you'd need to take quite a bit of wood off to get to the new wood again, but it doesn't seem like that's the case. 

-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

beenthere

Hey Piston
Maybe you can use that method on the woodwork... ;)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Piston

Quote from: beenthere on July 28, 2013, 09:40:28 PM
Hey Piston
Maybe you can use that method on the woodwork... ;)

I thought about that, but I don't think there is enough room to get a plane in there.  Maybe on the flat sections though, I'm definitely going to try it. 

It could be a good excuse to buy a nice smaller plane  ;D
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

nk14zp

Belsaw 36/18 duplex mill.
Belsaw 802 edger.
http://belsawsawmills.freeforums.org/

giant splinter

Piston,
Some time ago (2011) there was a post on the woodweb where a sawyer had built several portable sections of roof structure that he was able to move around in his yard and coverup his stacked and stickered lumber right off the mill. He had a few different sizes and shapes for different products.
The roof structure sections where standard wood framing with typical metal roofing installed on the frame the underside was your typical frame using 2X6 rafters @ 2'-0"o.c. resting on a 4X4 plate with 2X6 collar ties placed at each rafter for even bearing weight distribution , he could rig the portable roof section and place it on a fresh lumber stack, the next day remove it and add to the pile replacing it when finished sawing to keep the stack of fresh cut lumber protected from the weather and weighting is down in the process. The system looked like a good way to cover a fresh milled stack of beams of lumber if you have equipment to move the roof section around. I hope my description of what he is using is clear enough to understand and I hope it is of some help.
roll with it

Al_Smith

Quote from: nk14zp on July 28, 2013, 11:46:26 PM
How about a hand held power plane?
Hey I have one of them myself. Slickest thing since sliced bread or beer in a can.

Piston

Splinter,
That sounds like a good idea.  Thanks for the info, and yes, I can get a good picture by your description.  It could give me something useful to build with a lot of the older logs I have laying around that I hate to let go to waste, but may be too far gone for nice timbers. 
-Matt
"What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race."

robbshowe

We simply store our timbers under a sheet of wrinkly tin with a few heavy weights to hold it in place!
They are still stickered in the usual way but this keep them looking freshly sawn for a considerable time!
Keeping the direct rain and UV light from hitting the timber is the secret.

canopy

Using a power planer to remove all band saw marks takes about a 2 mil depth cut on each side. Less than that leaves lots of sanding needed in places. Planing is a lot easier than sanding. If it were me I would order wood oversized to account for cumulative shrinkage, planing, and any milling inaccuracies.

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