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RR Ties for $40

Started by GeneWengert-WoodDoc, December 29, 2012, 08:36:07 PM

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GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Would you be interested in taking a solid center of a log and sawing it into a 7x9 x 8-1/2 feet (or maybe 9 feet) and getting $40?

If so, you might prepare now to learn the quality requirements for ties and who might be buying them in your area, etc.  Just about any hardwood will be OK, but a premium is paid for oak.  My crystal ball says that this will happen soon...even with competition from other materials.

Why will the price go up?  Three years ago we had about 1000 trains a year that hauled crude oil to refiners.  Now, in 2012 we had an estimated 20,000 trains with about 118 cars and a cargo worth about $700,000.  Rail shipment (mainly in the Midwest) means that we do not have to build a pipeline, plus trains are faster than a pipeline.  Environmentalist do not want another pipeline, but they also are worried (rightly so) about a rail accident and spill.  The RRs are now inspecting their tracks, changing ties, adding more ties per mile, replacing old ties, and so on to make the tracks (main line) as safe as possible.  Ties will be in short supply and require 6 months or so to dry before treating.  [Most oil shipments will be in the Midwest.  Coal shipments are decreasing due to low natural gas prices, but much of that is further east, so that doesn't help the Midwest tracks.  See Aug 2011 Sawmill & Woodlot for an article about ties.]

Final comment...What type of engine drives the wheels on a diesel train?  Answer:  Electric.  The noise you hear is a diesel generator making electricity for the motor.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 29, 2012, 08:36:07 PM


Final comment...What type of engine drives the wheels on a diesel train?  Answer:  Electric.  The noise you hear is a diesel generator making electricity for the motor.

I did not know that. :)
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

drobertson

Lots of hp and kw's, this would be good news to many people if it were to happen.  I just wonder about the newer concrete ties that have been going in place of the wood ties.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

WH_Conley

There is a concrete tie plant right beside of the Koppers yard where I sell ties. Koppers has an interest in it. I guess they work in some places but not others. I don't know the limitations.

On another thread there was talk of timber going up substantially in price. If so, then ties will have to go up. If a good sound oak log, 12-13 inches at 10'. are going at say 50 cents a foot, you will have $20.00-$25.00 in the log. An oak tie here and now is bringing $21.00 plus $1.00 haul bill. A tie would have to be in the $40.00 range just to stay where we are now.
Bill

drobertson

That is a fact, a perfect tie log will range in the $13.00 range, leaving a $9.00 dollar profit from the tie, with an avg, of $8.00 dollars on the outside lumber to the flooring mills, $17.00 dollars profit in an ideal situation. Not all situations are ideal, as most of us know.  I have paid over $30.00 dollars for a log, and barely broke even after the tie was out and the boards graded.  $40.00 bucks a tie would surely help. I just have to wonder if the mills get all the profit, or the loggers and the owners then get their fair share as well.   As I have always said and believe, it is strickly a volume base market in every regard,  david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

shelbycharger400

their still laying pipeline all across the country. Their slowly dropping a 6 to 8 in tube down the hwy a few miles from here.   I assume its in the network from north dakota to st paul.
I do know of a few lines running from the gulf  up the center to the production plants here.   I dont see filling a tank, then pumping it out into a rail car, then running it down the tracks to pump it out into another tank ect is more cost effective than just throwin it down a tube under pressure and its flowing all the time.

The rail tracks about 4 miles from here has a train on them every 10 to 15 minutes.  and yes I here one comming now  >:(   winter time sound travels  a lot.

nas

We have a train track going through our property and I have definitely noticed an increase in tanker trains.  Also saw some "green" energy go by recently
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Nick
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stavebuyer

My partners family operates 3 tie buying yards in addition to their mills. Their tie order for 2013 was upped by 200,000 ties over 2012. We are adding equipment, stumpage, and recruiting new suppliers of both sawn ties and tie logs.The demand is there to put some pressure on pricing which probably won't move much until the demand is not met. I'd say the The Doc is right on target. Loggers and sawmillers both would be well advised to be prepared for increased demand and pricing for tie logs and sawn ties. Those not producing for the market will be competing with it for logs. Not sure enough loggers have survived to meet any increase in demand for logs.

GDinMaine

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 29, 2012, 08:36:07 PM


Final comment...What type of engine drives the wheels on a diesel train?  Answer:  Electric.  The noise you hear is a diesel generator making electricity for the motor.

That is good news about the ties, RRs and some jobs as well.
As for train engines,
I was told that there are several electrical motors, in some cases one per axle.  Also, the diesel in them is rebuildable one cylinder at a time as needed. 
It's the going that counts not the distance!

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Ron Wenrich

How much more capacity do tie yards have to treat ties?  The one thing I've always noticed on tie prices in my area is that it followed the 1 Com red oak price.  When 1 Com goes up, so do tie prices.  When it drops, so do tie prices. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

bandmiller2

I'am no authority on ties,or anything else for that matter,but like milk prices they will be just above the break even point.In outher words the tie buyers will pay the absolute lowest price to get the quantity of ties they need.Supply and demand in its purest form. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Kansas

Something else to consider. a 7x9 tie 9 ft long translates to .85 cents a board foot at 40 bucks a tie. Imagine what that will do to pallet lumber prices. Think I mentioned somewhere about pallet lumber up a bunch coming out of Canada. If you could sell the jacket boards for up in that area, that is probably better than flooring by a bunch. We don't cut for the tongue and groove flooring industry, but I know we have started to push margins more on trailer decking (green). My guess is, the flooring companies will have to tag along to get lumber bought. Then you have to figure what it will do to regular kiln dried grade lumber. Wasn't long ago I was buying Select red oak for a 1.05 or better.

We have a rail line go by our old sawmill place. They have new ties everywhere laying along side the main track. I don't think they haul oil, but haul a lot of grain and coal. The railroad wanted to haul in some asphalt they were taking out of the crossings. I said yes. Asked about getting the used ties. They said they had some company that took all of them. A day later, much to my surprise, they hauled over a load of ties. I was suprised at how good the quality was. They are definitely shelling out the bucks upgrading the lines. That would be U.P.

florida

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Retired now!

Ron Wenrich

If I recall correctly, the tie buyer said they replace those ties about every 17 years on average.  In high use areas, that is a lot more.  It seems that the oil shipment is localized.  I don't recall seeing that many railcars going through our locale being oil shipments.  If there is an upgrade, it wouldn't be covering the entire rail system. 

There may well be a rise in tie prices, but doubled?  The last time they needed more ties, they just went to adding more species.  Ash was added, then taken off.  For years, you couldn't sell an ash tie. 

Pallet prices may push ties, but I think you would need another $50/Mbf to impact the tie market.  At that price, it might become more practical to put in a scragg mill and utilize the smaller diameters that are going into either pulp or firewood. 

Markets get dragged in a lot of different directions.  It all depends on where the investment goes and how long markets can be sustained.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

drobertson

Florida, interesting read, thanks for that link,  david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

logman

The one thing I've never gotten about the tie market is why the seller pays the shipping when everything else you buy the buyer always pays shipping.
The ice breaker I was on in the CG had Fairbanks Morse diesel electric engines, I was told they were also used on locomotives.
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Ron Wenrich

Pulpwood in my area is bought in zones.  The further away you are, the more you get.  Basically the same idea with ties. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

rmack

Quote from: GDinMaine on December 30, 2012, 04:51:58 AM
Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 29, 2012, 08:36:07 PM


Final comment...What type of engine drives the wheels on a diesel train?  Answer:  Electric.  The noise you hear is a diesel generator making electricity for the motor.

That is good news about the ties, RRs and some jobs as well.
As for train engines,
I was told that there are several electrical motors, in some cases one per axle.  Also, the diesel in them is rebuildable one cylinder at a time as needed.

the diesel (actually runs on bunker C) is in the back of the unit and turns a huge DC generator, the motors on each axle are called Traction Motors. Train cars each have their own airbrakes but the locomotives also have what is called a Dynamic brake which basically amounts to a polarity switch and rheostat. They run reverse polarity to the traction motors to provide opposing force relative to the direction of travel. acts sort of like a jake brake.

I think ties are much too heavy for this particular back.
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
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Belsaw Boat Anchor

WH_Conley

That's the reason you hire the younger guys, use their backs.
Bill

LaserZX

I can hear those Traction Motors winding but I doubt tie prices will get to 40 anytime soon.  Everything is going up and up.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

How much wood is in a 7x9 x 8 foot tie?  If we were to saw the tie into 4/4 lumber, we would get 6 pieces of 9" x 8' which would be 36 bf.  and most would be  no.2 Common.  If they sold for $1.20 per bf, that would be the same as selling the tie at $40, using about $80 per MBF sawing cost.

I am suggesting that the demand for ties will be high enough that it will increase the price of No.1 Common.  Remember that we now have only about half of the sawmills we had in 2004 ( production capacity, not numbers).

It is not too likely that NEW pipelines will be built for crude oil.  Hence, with demand for more crude, the RRs will have the business...in fact already do.  Rail transport is faster than a pipeline.

It is my understanding that concrete is not yet used for high weight train rails.

Most ties, except in wet areas, are replaced due to mechanical wear...spikes come loose, tie plates cut into the wood, etc.  and so on a main line, ten years life is a good life.

Incidentally, one full tank car weighs about 263,000 pounds.  It would take six semi trucks to haul the same amount of oil.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

WH_Conley

I was quoted 1 common White oak at 35 cents a couple of weeks ago by a local mill, they were wanting to buy mine. That would take a great big jump to get the price up to $1.20, not counting the 2 and 3 common. I would like to sell some ties for $40.00, but, I am not holding my breath.
Bill

rmack

Quote
It is not too likely that NEW pipelines will be built for crude oil.

I disagree, I am a pipe welder and I believe the projections for the next decade include an enormous expansion of the North American pipeline system, enough so that I am putting together a welding rig to take advantage of upcoming pipeline work. I am not a particular fan of either the Keystone or Northern Gateway projects, but there are many others that I will be happy to work on.

QuoteIt is my understanding that concrete is not yet used for high weight train rails.

both Canadian National and Canadian Pacific started experimenting with concrete ties back in the 1970's, (when I was a brakeman) they are in extensive use on both mainlines today. I am not up to speed on the exact specifics but I do know that concrete has a solid hold on much of this market now.

Don't get me wrong, I understand you probably have forgotten more about Forestry than I will ever know. ;)

I don't know where the price of ties/lumber is going, but I didn't buy my mill doubting that it would be well worth the price at some point, then again I could be wrong.

Every big operator that fails in BC opens the door for a lot of little guys, at the same time the beetle kill problem has resulted in projected annual cut allowances that will soon be dropping by upwards of 80% in many areas of BC. All I can say is that, right now, I'm glad I don't have to rely on my mill to eat.
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
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1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

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Bill
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Larry

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 30, 2012, 12:04:34 PM
It is my understanding that concrete is not yet used for high weight train rails.

Twenty years ago I watched BNSF convert from wood ties to concrete on their mainline from the coal fields of Montana/N Dakota into the south.

We lived close to the tracks in N.  Missouri and on many winter nights we could hear the coal trains running.  Sometimes from 4 to 6 trains per hour.  I don't know how the weight of a coal train compares to a tank train, but probably weighs more than my F-350 with a load of wood ;D.

I was told one time concrete ties were cheaper, with less maintenance than wood.  The down side was the roadbed required a lot more ballast and was harder to maintain.

Of course maybe BNSF was just doing a test as a way to find out the most economical way to run a railroad. :D
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

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