RR Ties for $40

[paul case]

That how much really depends on the sawyer and how fat your slabs are and your target for opening face and on and on and on. I usually get a board on each side of a 12'' to 13'' tie log. sometimes an extra. I shoot for a 6'' face to start.

PC

[Ron Wenrich]

The toolbox has a handy log size to cant size calculator to figure out what size log you need to get to a desired cant.  Wane is not included.

https://forestryforum.com/calcs/log_size.htm

To get a 7x9, you need a minimum of a 11.4" log, and it needs to be straight.  I need some wiggle room.

[KnotBB]

The toolbox has a handy log size to cant size calculator to figure out what size log you need to get to a desired cant.  Wane is not included.

https://forestryforum.com/calcs/log_size.htm

To get a 7x9, you need a minimum of a 11.4" log, and it needs to be straight.  I need some wiggle room.

OK,

But aren't you allowed 1" of wane so the log size could go down to 11"?  Or is that a game you don't want to play?

[stavebuyer]

The toolbox has a handy log size to cant size calculator to figure out what size log you need to get to a desired cant.  Wane is not included.

https://forestryforum.com/calcs/log_size.htm

To get a 7x9, you need a minimum of a 11.4" log, and it needs to be straight.  I need some wiggle room.

OK,

But aren't you allowed 1" of wane so the log size could go down to 11"?  Or is that a game you don't want to play?

You can get some good 7x9's with allowable wane from 11" logs but I probably end up cutting 2 6x8's out of 12 and 13" logs for every good 7x9 I cut from an 11". Pine might be different; hardwoods tend to have just enough sweep and crook that unless the the 11" log is oval,straight, and slick I don't try for a 7x9.

[Ron Wenrich]

Our tie market has a minimum of wane, especially where the plate sits.  From a sawyer's standpoint, I never figured I was good enough to get that consistent 1" of wane to try and skin the market by their rules.  It takes time to do that, and time is money and a non-renewable resource.  Your results may vary.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

At $21.86, that is the same as getting over $600 per MBF for the lumber in the center of a log, considering that if you saw a tie into lumber you would get 36 BF.

[drobertson]

No doubt the better avg. is taking out the tie,, and I found that getting greedy will come back to bite, I have some clear logs I tried to get a few more clear boards and finish with a 6X8, only to reveal knots.  Gene you hit the low grade price pretty close. 

[Okrafarmer]

Maybe this is the wrong time or place to ask, but what about landscape timbers? If a log won't meet the grueling specs of a RR tie, what about timbers? Is there a market for them, and what do people generally get for them? Wholesale? Retail?

[drobertson]

Okra, I guess it would depend on the size of the timbers and what kinda treatment they would get,  I have cut many for raised beds for folks that want untreated timbers to be more green and organic.  But I'm not sure as to how this would go as far as a large market. I suppose anything is possible. 

[Ron Wenrich]

Do you have a market?  If not, how are you going to develop one?

I knew of a mill that used to make them.  They had their own tank to dip their landscape ties into and make them.  They also did clearcuts in front of strip mines, and had their own mines.  Money wasn't as much of an object.  They utilized small logs that were destined for the pulp mills.  Their millsite probably qualified for an EPA cleanup spot. 

[Jeff]

I went back and found this post I made not all that long ago on our experience with a landscape tie market

I'd say it works depending on the species.

  Back in the late 70's early 80's, I don't remember what years exactly, there was a big market for aspen landscape ties that were run through a dip tank with a similar mixture. I know there was tar and mineral spirits, and some other stuff.  Nasty stuff.  I remember one time our dip tank motor broke and we had to dip about a 10 bundles by hand.

Anyhow, we were not the innovators of this process, just one of many contractors sawing dipping and selling to the wholesalers.  This market boomed for 2 years. Then it died. Why? By the third year it turns out, there were a whole bunch of hollow crumbling tar shells around the country. The aspen ties rotted quicker with the "Waterproofing" barrier then they would have if they had simply been plain old ties.

So will any species work with that process?  Time will tell. ;)

We've tried roofing tar on Tamarack posts in the U.P. at the cabin for feeders, and they rot off faster then untreated.

[Okrafarmer]

Tis the truth, Jeff, and yet people continue to use them in their yards. I guess the way to market them is to find out who the landscape suppliers buy them from, and see if I can sell them to the producers. But maybe they do like you were saying, and only mill their own, don't buy any.

I'm wondering if the thing to do is mill them, offer them for sale, and let the customers find their own methods of treating them.  ??? I guess they mostly just buy recycled ties for the most part.

I have sold some 2X6 ERC boards for landscaping timbers. They were put in green last year. I wonder how long they will last? But ERC is too nice to do market it that way!

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

I recall one day a fellow showed up at our mill and want eight ties.  He was driving a station wagon and thought he could haul them.  At almost 200 pounds each, he certainly would have blown his tires, shocks, springs.  He also thought he could load them himself.

[Okrafarmer]

I recall one day a fellow showed up at our mill and want eight ties.  He was driving a station wagon and thought he could haul them.  At almost 200 pounds each, he certainly would have blown his tires, shocks, springs.  He also thought he could load them himself.

Hmm! Believe me, I seen worse, Doc! (especially when I visited China, but even in the US!)

[KnotBB]

At $21.86, that is the same as getting over $600 per MBF for the lumber in the center of a log, considering that if you saw a tie into lumber you would get 36 BF.

Huh?

Are you considering that soft wood is sold nominal size?  Wouldn't that allow at least an extra 1 x 6  (from the 9" width) and maybe an additional 1 x 8 with a band mill?

The actual price quoted was $490/m for an 8'6" tie.

[Kansas]

The last few years we have mostly got our logs from clearing operations where they want more farmground. I don't think at current prices I have any interest, but doing an internet search reveals that hackberry is apparently used as railroad ties. I can't find where cottonwood is used. We pass over a lot of 11 inch logs of both species. Anyone have experience cutting either one for ties? I still have the problem of finding a place to take them. If there was a market in the future that was good, it would beat cutting cants out of those smaller logs up around 12 or 13 inches that we do take for pallet.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

Jim Its a pretty big market and you can either sell direct or wholesale the direct approach with  durable species will net the best returns as you can just saw them when ordered or keep your own stock up most common sizes are 8x2 and 3" by 6-8-9 & 10' lengths Ill also be sawing alot of 6x2 &3" in the same lengths Mate

I am already booked in for sawing about 1.2 million bft of Pine ties for CCA & CCQ preasure treatment along with about 200000 bft of Cypress Pine and about another 2 to 400000bft of Hardwood Garden Sleepers 

I will also add I get a better price for sawing hardwood garden grade ties than I would if I was sawing for the railroad plus they are the ones that shafted us 10 yrs ago by swapping overnight to all concrete ties for the major lines that are failing now in sections as concrete dose not cope with extreme temps and traffic loads problem is when they go looking for timber sleepers they are not going to find them as Sawmillers have shifted to a whole new market with better returns and that are not as fussy on grade  ;) ;D ;D

Our ties here are most likely going to come from other countries if they do an about face and want to change the main lines back to timber and want alot of ties pronto  which is on the cards its not the first time we have imported ties either as I have resawn creo treated American Oak ties that came out of the city loop line in Melbourne back in about 01 or 02  as they where a trial batch to see how they held up 

Regards Chris

[Kansas]

Well now I am lost. If a tie is cut 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 but they paid for a full 7x9, then The docs math works. Do they do softwood ties differently than hardwoods, or do they do hardwoods the same way? Never having cut any, I guess I never actually measured a railroad tie. That would be paying for an 8 ft log, not 8'6".

[SwampDonkey]

Mom's uncle being a railroad man, and her brother being a rail switch sweeper had access to all kinds of ties (treated with creosote). Every building around both yards was propped up with ties and both used them as cribbing in the banks of hillsides near buildings to deter soil creep and erosion. They've been there all my life and then some. They would have been heavy hardwood ties. At times you could go along the rail line where they piled up the old ones for quite some time, so I gather a few walked off. Maybe they was hoping if they sat there long enough that they would walk off. ;D

Heck Kansas, even pulpmills wanted trim wood in the days of buying on cordage. And it's all pulp. I can see a sawmill wanting a little trim. Even that trim goes to their pulpmill. They use every morsel, even the freebies. ;D

[Ron Wenrich]

You can cut hackberry into ties.  Cottonwood is too soft. 

I think I had put the alternative prices in the beginning of the thread.  I don't know of any hardwood mills that saws logs all into lumber.  Might be a few sawing cherry, but I couldn't get that to work.  Usually its sawed to a pallet cant. That cant is worth about $5-6.  The balance would need about $830/Mbf for breakeven.

Kansas:  did you figure in saw kerf and oversized?  In tie logs, you buy the 8'6" for the 8' price and you sell the lumber the same way.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

If you saw a 7x9 hardwood tie (actual size is 7.0" by 9.0") into lumber, I was calculating that you would get 6 pieces of 4/4, 9" x 8-1/2' lumber (36 BF).  That is really tough to do, as you would get 1/16" kerf and 1-1/16" thick lumber, but many mills have more kerf and many customers want 1-1/8".  So, at 1-1/8" thick with 3/32" kerf, then you would only get 5 pieces of 9" x 8' (30 BF) or, if you saw the other direction, 6 pieces of 7" x 8' lumber (30 BF).  At a tie price of $21.50 per tie, that is $717 per MBF for what often would be No.2 Common and lower grades.

Note that different species are used for ties, with a premium (often $2 per tie) paid for red oak and sometimes white oak.  Most of the other ties are bought as mixed hardwood species, but not all species are acceptable.  As mentioned, there are restrictions on wane, as well as requirements for solid ends and minimal end splitting.  So, landscape timers (3x6 is one common size) is indeed an option, but many gardeners do want just any species, but prefer white oak or other naturally decay resistant species.

[Al_Smith]

  At times you could go along the rail line where they piled up the old ones for quite some time, so I gather a few walked off. Maybe they was hoping if they sat there long enough that they would walk off. ;D

They used to sell the old ties for a dollar a pop. Which I have little doubt that dollar most likely ended up in the local track foremans pocket or bought the track crew lunch and beer ,no big deal .

The way they do it now with machinery they cut the ties out most of the time and you just end up with about 3 foot pieces not good for much of anything .Might be good for building smokey bonfires to drive off mosquitoes maybe .

[drobertson]

I believe the best way to handle the tie market is to contact a buyer and have them give the low down on specs and species.  Unless someone has a buyer of cut through ties at a price  at or above 500/m, there is no way to make it buying the logs then selling it as it grades.  I'm not really an expert but have done about every conceivable combination as in relates to hardwood and green lumber.  The fellows with kilns have a bonus going for them for sure. But as is has been mentioned before, without sales, it is kinda pointless.   david

[Kansas]

Okay, I get it. You were talking lumber instead of a tie.

They are replacing a bunch of ties out along our property. They take these out in whole form. They have been dumping asphalt from road crossings on our place. They told me someone has a contract to pick up all the old ties, the good and the bad. They did haul me in some really nice used ties in exchange for me letting them dump the asphalt. Eventually, got to get a crusher in and send all this concrete and asphalt down the road.

Not sure where the nearest buying yard for ties is from me. Probably wherever Paul or Bibby goes. I won't mess with it anyway until the price was higher. We have been needing a lot of cants anyway for pallets and blocking.

[Okrafarmer]

Around here I keep hearing scuttlebut about a demand for sweetgum ties. And yet no one I know is actively selling (or buying them). Someone gave me the number for a tie buyer, but I haven't been able to get a hold of him.