Reading about the ice storm has got me to thinking about my parents' situation. They have a small generator, but it isn't large enough to run their electric heating system. There is a fireplace that has never been used, but Dad is on oxygen, so that probably isn't an option. Does anyone have a suggestion for an elcheapo solution? As it stands now, they would have to be evacuated if they lose power on a cold night.
That's a tough question. No power means no electric heat at all, even space heat. Oxygen means no fires, which rules out fireplace, propane space heat and probably a woodstove. A large generator is expensive, but other than spending a lot of money on a different solution, may be the best alternative.
Are they mobile enough to spend the night with a neighbor or friend in another community with power? That evacuation may be the best solution. Only other thing I could think of would be to confine themselves to one room and pile up a lot of warm blankets, but that's probably only good for a single night. What part of the country do they live?
Just having oxygen should not rule out any combustion equipment as the air around has 21 percent oxygen in it. It cannot really explode or burn as oxygen is not a fuel.
Probably the best alternative is the fireplace. It should have an insert or you will send too much heat up the chimney if you do not have good control of the draft.
Some people have survived here in Minnesota with those kerosene heaters, but they are smelly and you need to be concerned with ventilation of fumes. Some are approved for closed spaces, but still stink.
A small propane space heater may work if you can get one for unventilated spaces.
Is this Florida you are talking about? ::)
When I built my house 4 years ago, i had it wired for a generator and have a propane fireplace as a backup! Never had to use it yet but New England is just down the road! :o
Sbishop
Yes, they are in extreme Northern Florida..Tallahassee. This ain't like Miami, it gets cold here. So far this fall, we have had several nights in the low 20s, expect to see a few in the teens, and it occasionally dips into single digits.
My folks are old and getting somewhat frail, so whatever we do will either have to be very easy to work, or someone will have to stay with them. They live in a large DW mobile home with a very open floor plan, so I don't think their 5500 watt generator can support enough space heaters to do much good.
I like the idea of a propane heater or converting the fireplace to propane. My Dad has COPD along with athsma, so a wood fire is not a good idea because of the smoke. How hard and how expensive is it to install a propane log in a woodburning metal fireplace? Would it put out enough heat to be worthwhile?
DanG, my emergency and back up heat is gas logs in the wood fire burning fire place. It does a good job, we have ventless, so the heat stays inside. It cut my electric winter bill by a third. There is a certain amount of "fumes" from the gas logs that may not be acceptable. But it works.
Can't say it's all that cheap @ $400, but what about one of those Edenpure heaters? They only pull 12.5 amps (1,483 watts), and work off of a 110v three-prong outlet. Some of my future in-laws have one, and they really seem to like it. You can just push it from room to room.
I think you can get a ventless portable kerosene heater for a little over $100. The main hazard with the kerosene heaters is putting the wrong fuel like gasoline in them.
For around the same price you can get a propane heater and run it off of those 20 lb cylinders.
I don't know anything about fireplace logs, but make sure you can burn them without opening the damper on the fireplace or the heat will go up the chimney.
Ohsoloco, what does that heater have that makes it so pricey? They already have an electric space heater that will make the bedroom inhabitable.
I like the gas log idea, so I'll be looking into that. Now for another question. I want to hook up their genset so they can use it without assistance. I'm thinking of building a box for it in their garage with the exhaust vented to the outside. Next step would be to run some circuits into the house and locate surface mounted outlets in strategic locations. It has four outlets on it but I'm not sure if they are 15 or 20 amp capacity. The longest run would be about 40 feet. What size wire should I use? I have a roll of 14ga on hand. Would that be big enough?
The Gas Log idea sounds like a good one. I wouldn't worry about he oxygen, unless he sticks the tube in the fire. It will make it hotter.
On another note.
Why don't you suggest that they pretend that they are 20 years old again and crawl into a comfortable double or queensized bed with 40 pounds of blankets on it. Between the blankets and the extra curriclular activities, the esprit de corps may be sufficient to get them through the night. Matter of fact, they might not want to get out of bed in the morning. :D :D
Will a new or used rv propane furnace work? I'm looking out the window at my 5th wheel and the thought hit me. It runs on 12vdc and 120, it seems to run along time on my propane bottles and I believe it kicks out 40,000btu. Maybe this is not a good idea, just a thought.
:D :D :D Ya, that might work for a while...a very short while. The old man is having enough trouble making it through the night in a hospital bed!
Quote from: bmill on December 15, 2008, 02:55:23 PM
Will a new or used rv propane furnace work? I'm looking out the window at my 5th wheel and the thought hit me. It runs on 12vdc and 120, it seems to run along time on my propane bottles and I believe it kicks out 40,000btu. Maybe this is not a good idea, just a thought.
That ain't a half-bad idea, bmill. I actually have one of those but I don't know if it's any good. Installation might be a little tricky though.
Another thought I had is putting a gas water heater in an outdoor enclosure, then pumping hot water through a heat exchanger in the house. That would be a little more involved than the gas log, but would be cleaner. Reckon how much heat it would generate?
Sounds like you are re-inventing steam radiators, Dang. :D
I like the use of the fireplace. It is already engineered for volatiles. Heaters, like electric space heaters and kerosene space heaters scare me in a home with young folks, much less a home with elderly who don't move to quickly, or not at all.
Steam heat would definitely be an option if you could put it together cheaply enough. I like the use of the fireplace best.
We heat the entire cabin, even in sub-zero weather with a ventless plaque infrared LP Gas heater. We have a carbon monoxide alarm for peace of mind, but in many years we have never had an issue. It doesn't need any electricity to run or light. but does have a blower if you want to use it. Has built in thermostat that also does not require juice. I think this is it HERE (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100594230)
Well, Jeff beat me to the punch. We ran into the same problem a few days ago. I will buy one of the ventless propane heaters, tie it to a portable propane bottle and have it for back up at the house. My Mom has them mounted in her house and they put out lots of heat. No electricity needed.
I like the propane heater idea. They might find they like it as well.
Here's another thought. We often stay in my Grandparent's guest house. It's a slab on grade concrete block building. When it gets cold, it stays cold for a while. We usually arrive after dark, and the heat's been kept on just enough so it won't freeze up. Even when we turn up the baseboard hot water heat and build a fire in the woodstove, the back bedroom stays cold until about the next day.
We've found an electric blanket does a real good job during those nights. I don't know how many watts it pulls, but I doubt it's over 1000.
Every time I go into the main house to eat, visit, or play cards with Granny, I have to start stripping down. She's 90, and feels best when the inside temperature matches her age!
I'd upgrade to a heavier wattage generator and run some space heaters with it. Fuel is easier to get than propane and no worries of any fumes to hurt your Dad's lungs.
QuoteWhat size wire should I use?
#14 is 15 amp and #12 is 20 amp, don't exceed the total wattage of the generator.
Bigger is better and shorter runs for least resistance just don't exceed the amperage of the breaker or the wire gauge.
I would install a vented LP gas heater that does not require electric. No worries of fumes or refueling a generator every few hours.
If the fireplace is masonry and on an outside wall it will put very little heat into the room with a propane log. Those "Eden Pure" heaters are a huge scam perpetrated on the elderly. They put out no more heat than a simple cube heater. The company selling them make fantastic claims that fall just short of being prosecutable. Paul Harvey has lost all of my respect for representing them on his radio show. Reminds me of Ed McMann hawking worthless life insurance to the elderly.
What about a 220v electric heater? There must be something that will put out some serious heat and would work off the existing genset. Your genset would probably run two.
Do they have a gas stove? I run the top burners when I get home from a trip to take the edge off until my wood boiler gets going. But that may create a fire hazard.
Are they close enough to you to check in on them? It is tough to grow older.
Keep us posted, Joe
DanG, I haven't a clue what makes them so pricey, other than marketing...If Paul Harvey endorses them, they gotta be good :D
Sorry about the rant but anybody that takes advantage of an older person ought to be strung up by there nails. Joe
I have one, and am elderly...by most standards. ;D ;D
It does the job I expected it to do...looks good and so far, no complaints on performance.
The largest one (1500 watts) is good for a bedroom size area. In a doublewide, probably not (may work in FL tho).
I like the oil-filled radiator style heaters better than the electric element ones. More even heat, less danger from catching something on fire, but they take a while to heat up.
I had the ventless propane wall heater in my garage for extra heat, and found that it gave off too much moisture burning the fuel. However, it was in the garage where snow and ice came in with the two vehicles, so there was extra amounts of moisture in the air to begin with.
No good shortcuts. All have something to be a catch-22.
The gas stove would be a great thing, but they're all electric. We use our range for auxiliary heat here with no ill effect, and my folks are quite lucid and capable of using that if it were available.
I don't know much about the fireplace, except it is one of those metal box types that comes in the mobile homes. They ordered the home without it but it was there anyway. ::) I'm not sure if it has blowers or not, but that would be helpful.
The biggest problem here is the open floor plan. The living and dining rooms and the kitchen are all basically one room, so it is a pretty big space. They do have one of those oil-filled radiator thingys, now that I think of it. Most likely, we could run both heaters on the generator and they could get by for a day or two. The likelyhood of an extended outage around here in the Winter is pretty remote, but I'd still like to be ready. ;) Thanks for all the help guys! There are some real good suggestions here, and I have a better idea of things to look into. :) :) :)
I like the idea of a propane heater because the fuel does not turn to varnish in a month or so like gasoline .
Great point, Don. We already have that problem with the generator. They have no use for it other than for emergency power, so the gas can get rather stale. They bought the genset in a panic when it looked like Hurricane Ike was coming here. As it stands now, I put enough gas in it to hold them until I can get there to fill it up. I do need to put some stabilizer in it though. How long will that extend the shelf life of gasoline, anyway? I'm thinking I need to drain it periodically and use it in the car before it goes bad.
DanG
I have put stabilizer in my snowmobile in the spring and started her up and drove her come the next winter ... Do the same with the outbord , might not be the thing to do but works for me . I never really stopped to look at the label far enough to see if they do word it out how long it is good for . ::) :P
I have had it work a year later and also had the gas go bad in three months with the Stabil. I think it depends on how good the gas is that you bought .
My dad bought a generator from a surplus supply catalog. We run it off the front pto on our 20 hp simplicity law tractor. Not sure about wattage, but it will run everything in the house. The only that challenges it is the electric stove, or running the water heater and well pump at the same time. It will run all lights and everything else. A tank of gas lasts several hours at least.
Several years ago we had a terrible ice storm. We were out of power for a week. We ran the generator for several hours a day, in order to keep food frozen, and so we could run water. We could've run it all day though.
Dang, probably 9 months with premium gas and Stabil.
A larger, "tri-fuel" or LPG generator is probably the best option. Do they have natural gas, or just propane? Either will work.
I have a 1965 vintage Onan 5500 watt propane generator with an automatic transfer switch backing up the critical outlets in our house. Our furnace is LPG, so the generator will run the furnace fan, bathroom lights, well pump, refridgerator, microwave, and the lights / ceiling fan in our bedroom. Also the TV.
If their HVAC system is fairly old, one option may be to replace it with new system that uses LPG for the furnace. The AC compressor efficiencies have gotten so high that the ROI is usually just a few years, and this would let you keep your existing generator.
Scott
I've been running it for a little while every couple of weeks to keep the carb from gumming up, and to keep the battery up. What do y'all think if I just fill the thing up, then drain it into the car every couple of months? That would give us about 10 hours of run time before somebody has to come refuel the thing.
Scott, that sounds like a good setup, but replacing major systems isn't in the budget. The home and all systems are only 6 years old, and they don't have propane at all. It is all electric. Any auxiliary heat beyond the two space heaters will have to be independently powered. So far, the gas logs in the fireplace seem to be winning out. We have enough 20lb bottles in the family to keep them going for a while. :) :)
That is really the best setup for emergency use. Starts up and shuts off automatically, no worries about bad fuel and it isolates the standby and line systems for safety. The only maintenance is oil changes and air filters. The new ones are quieter and have a battery minder.
DanG, the Sta-Bil in the fuel would be a wise and inexpensive addition. I recently pulled out my generator that hasn't been run since the '04 hurricanes. I wanted to fire it up and make sure it was good to go. It fired up and ran on 3.5 year old gas just fine, thanks to the Sta-Bil. I still drained it and replaced it with fresh fuel (and more Sta-Bil). Consider it cheap insurance if you forget to replace the fuel every few months.
Dang,
I put a propane log kit in my florida fireplace using a 20# tank. The 20 #er didn't allow enough flow, iced up so I connected it to the main tank and it works good. It is ventless.
Just a thought.
I vote for the inferred propane heaters instead of gas log or blue flame LP heaters.
I have both and like the inferred better .
Id say for 300 you could buy the heater and a 80 lb bottle
DanG, I use propane for back up. Central Al is colder than N. Fla. I also have an open floor plan and a large set of unvented gas logs can easily heat the open space. I would not use them in a closed room like a bedroom. No need to mess with them as they can be thermostatically controlled. 100 gal. tank will last a long time. Joe
The L.P, heater that I mentioned is such a simple solution. We get zero fumes and has proven itself over the years. It sets sometimes for months on end without use, then is ready to go within moments. It would excel in an open floor plan. Anything using a generator is going to require maintenance for at least the generator end of things. Our heater just hangs there in wait for the times we need it. The only thing you need to make sure of is that you have propane hooked to it, which does not require any stabilization.
I guess it's time to admit to my ignorance on this subject. I confess that I've always turned up my nose at gas logs, 'cause I felt that they were just a waste of a good fireplace. ::) :D As a result, I don't know much about them. My main question is, do they do anything to "enhance" the heat given off by the flame, like an infrared heater does? In other words, is there any advantage beyond aesthetics, to having the logs in there above just sticking the fish cooker in there? ::) ;)
I'm really leaning more and more toward the gas logs idea, mostly because it would not only provide the needed backup, but would be considered an asset when the time comes to sell the place. I would just have to recruit a little financial assistance from my Siblings. I ain't gonna broach this subject to my Folks yet, since this sort of thing can turn into an obsession most quick when they are approaching their nineties. :o :D
Jeff, I took a good look at the link you provided, and I like those heaters. In fact, I may get one of the smaller ones for myself. Believe me, they're running a close second to the gas logs in the fireplace idea. The only problem I can see with the heaters is the aesthetic challenge. Ya see, my Mom waited for a whole lot of years to have what she considers a nice attractive home, and she ain't gonna want something that doesn't "fit in." I've got all sorts of ideas circulating in my cranial vacuum right now, and none of them have been entirely eliminated. The simplest and cheapest of those ideas is to just take a pile of firewood over there for emergency use only, and hoping for the best. The fireplace is one of the Heatalator types with glass doors, and lined with firebrick, so we might could get away with that in a pinch. Another cheap option I've thought of is to just afix some sort of gas burner in there, and mask it with a little pile of firewood. All we'd have to do to activate it, is pull the wood out and stick a match to the burner.
One thing is for sure; If they get into a situation where any of these measures are necessary, I or one of my Siblings will be moving in with them for the duration of the problem. ;) :) :)
DanG, if aesthetics are an issue, the heaters weigh next to nothing and can be stowed away by unhooking the gas line and then either lifting the heater from the two screws it takes to hang it on the wall, or using the free standing optional legs that it comes with. You could install the gas line with a shut off in an inconspicuous location like we did, then have the heater connect to that with a quick disconnect.
Hi all,
I have friends that live on Blue hill,above Sunbury,pa-they have the same heater that Jeff talks about-they have a small cabin type house,with wood heater as main-but they like the wall hung propane heaters so much,they are becoming the main source of heat....Bert
Quote from: DanG on December 16, 2008, 01:19:33 PM
.................
One thing is for sure; If they get into a situation where any of these measures are necessary, I or one of my Siblings will be moving in with them for the duration of the problem. ;) :) :)
DanG
Isn't that threat enough for them to decide in favor of the wall-hanging heater, considering the aesthetics and all......
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I also have a heater similar to what Jeff linked to. I think it would be ideal as backup heat. They have a thermostat so iffen ya got the pilot lit the heater will come on when the house temperature drops. Would be quite nice if power goes out bout bedtime...your folks will still wake up to a somewhat warm house in the morning.
Use the generator to keep the beer cool in the fridge and the TV on football games. I just don't have a lot of confidence in generators for supplying heat. Having said that my generator kept my folks in there home during the Kansas City ice storm of 02. Power out 10 days and mom was on kidney dialysis.
Seeing as every body else has given his 2ยข here , might as well jump in two . ;D
I have a generator set up outside in its own little cabane , its a 5500 watts and it powers the house here when power goes out .. yes I wrote when .... We live at the end of the road , and the end of the line 14 poles from the neighbour , when power goes out in a storm , ya can bet we are not on the first to be serviced list .
The generator powers the fridge, the 2 freezers, the water pump, a light in each room , a few plugs and the furnace fan .
The furnace is a wood/electric/heat pump combo , when out of power we only use the wood once the generator is going . the generator has its own panel wich is run off the main panel , one must shut the incoming power from hydro breaker and connect the generator breaker.
I would get the propane heater that Jeff has in the cabine , and keep the generator for the lights and radio/tv , fridge /freezer and a few fans ... Well ya never know , it aint always cold out when power goes ... I would not touch the fire place , it can always be used to make a fire and cook on . one needs to eat at one point . Well I know I would be using it to make me some food ... ;D
Instead of installing a few outlets around to plug some items in why not install a small transfer switch or a Gen-Tran (brand name). This connects to the generator and is wired into the breaker box and powers up predetermined circuits like the ceiling paddle fans to bring down heat, microwave for food or instant coffee. The small systems have 6 circuits and all you do is move the toggle switch and it connected. They are very easy to connect up.
DanG My gas logs sit in an existing fireplace.
It doesn't have glass doors but I would guess you could leave them open.
Your folks will like the way they look.
You will like the ease of install.
Good luck.
Joe
Just follow the safety procedures, and you should be fine.
Propane Heaters: Carbon Monoxide Deaths
When a propane heater is lit, it consumes oxygen and produces carbon monoxide as a by-product. Carbon monoxide is an odorless tasteless gas that competes with oxygen binding molecules in our blood. Early symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning include headache and nausea. On prolonged exposure, it can cause cardiovascular collapse, coma and eventually death.
Deaths related to carbon monoxide are normally seen when people go out camping with indoor propane heaters. Inside the closed tents, there is no outlet for carbon monoxide and no inlet for oxygen. Further, campers, having spent the entire day hiking fall asleep immediately unaware of what is happening and some unfortunately never wake up.
It is always advisable to get a carbon monoxide detector fitted in the room like the garage or the green house where the propane heater will be used extensively. These days propane heaters fitted with oxygen detectors are also available. These detectors sound an alarm when the oxygen level falls under a pre-determined value. This will indicate that the carbon monoxide level is rising in the room.
I like my gas log set up too course I don't need it for heat but it does put out a considerable amount.
Mine has a remote control, push of a button and you have fire, can adjust it and it even has a timer which will turn on shut off at a predetermined time. Ebay $300, 3 years ago.
That infrared that Jeff mentioned looks to be the ticket for straight heat.
BT, I understand exactly where you are coming from, but the ventless heaters were designed to use indoors without the problems. My Mom has used them exclusively for a couple of years and never had a problem with Carbon Monoxide. Her heater does have a sensor and if oxygen levels get too low, the heater shuts off until levels are normal again. Her heater has never shut down. I think the sensors are required on the ventless heaters.
I've noticed that the only flame produced by her heaters are the pilot and an initial flame when the heater first comes on. After that, the flame is not apparent, just the glow of the heating grates.
The detector is good advice though.
Quote from: DanG on December 15, 2008, 02:38:14 PMIt has four outlets on it but I'm not sure if they are 15 or 20 amp capacity. The longest run would be about 40 feet. What size wire should I use? I have a roll of 14ga on hand. Would that be big enough?
DanG,
If it's a 5,500W generator, it's probably two 20A circuits... if the outlets have a "T" shaped spade on the left side, they're 20A. If they're just two parallel blades that look the same, they are 15A. The generator might even have a little push-button circuit breaker above each outlet pair that is labeled... my Generac is like that.
-N.
Hey DanG.
This probably isn't a solution for an easy generator connection for you but it worked for me since I had a surface-mount breaker box. Uses heavy-duty three-way switches and beats having to run special circuits for emergency/standby power or buying an expensive changeover switch. You can just see the generator cable coming in the top of the box.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12224/Sbox1a.jpg)
The little pink thingy on the back side of the door is a piece of flagging tape that I stick on a switch if I use it to isolate a circuit for maintenance. Reminds me to switch back when finished.
That would be pretty cool Slabs, but we got a little problem here. My Dad know's just enough about electricity to get it from here to yonder, in other words, enough to make him dangerous! :o When we got the generator, his idea was to rig an extension cord with two male plugs and just run it from the genset to an outlet in the house. He hadn't even thought about feeding juice back into the grid that way. ::) That is a good part of my decision to go with an entirely seperate wiring scheme. I don't want any chance that he is gonna try to use any sort of shortcut.
My dad has a cabin (tiny three bedroom house) in Maine, He lives two states away, and the bank wouldn't sign on the loan without a central heat source. The cabin is on york beach and is realy only for the summer.
He put in a propane "floor furnace" it is a vented gas heater that sits under the floor, it requires no power as the thermostat is powered by a thermocouple that sticks into the pilot light.
You would never have to worry about power or generators with this as a backup, he has heated the cabin with this since '95. When I got married we lived in the cabin for the first year and a half, we made it through two Maine winters with it as the heat source. We just had to put a fan blowing the cold air back from rooms we wanted warmer (much like a pellet stove), the heat comes out by convection. There is a grating that covers the heater and you can walk on it with no problems.
It also has an ignitor on it like a gas grill to light the pilot. I have thought of putting one in my house here as we get power outages every time a deer farts in the woods.