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Future of Southern Yellow Pine?

Started by GATreeGrower, December 07, 2012, 11:37:17 AM

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Okefenokee_D

Quote from: WDH on July 17, 2019, 09:37:01 PM
There are consequences of baling and removing pine straw.  Much of the recycled nutrients available to the trees are in the needles.  As the needles break down, the nutrients are released and again available for tree growth.  Repeated, frequent removals of straw removes these nutrients and will impact the site fertility over time.

I worked for the largest private (corporate) timberland owner in North America and no pine strawing was allowed on any of the property.  Not to say that you should not do it, but you might want to consider some supplemental fertilization with some of the straw sales proceeds.

The issue with using fertilizers can cause cankers on pines if you arent careful.


Erosion in pine stands can come from pine straw operation.

But like I said $200/acre for longleaf is good money.

Most people dont even thin the pine when it is around 13-15 years old when the canopy is closing like they should.

They mainly rake it and once the trees start dying off...most either clearcut or thin then, but the diameter is small

Okefenokee_D

Quote from: nativewolf on July 18, 2019, 08:04:50 AM
Quote from: WDH on July 17, 2019, 09:37:01 PM
There are consequences of baling and removing pine straw.  Much of the recycled nutrients available to the trees are in the needles.  As the needles break down, the nutrients are released and again available for tree growth.  Repeated, frequent removals of straw removes these nutrients and will impact the site fertility over time.

I worked for the largest private (corporate) timberland owner in North America and no pine strawing was allowed on any of the property.  Not to say that you should not do it, but you might want to consider some supplemental fertilization with some of the straw sales proceeds.
While transitioning to grad school I did some research on pine straw raking and disposal of treated municipal biosolids to replace the nutrients and organic matter.  However, LL pine sites are used to pine needle removal anyway so maybe it is not needed.  In fact, if you are raking that's the real cash crop, not the trees. 
I think W concerns on raking were not well thought out, the old coastal LL pine forest were fire ecosystems, that organic matter mostly coooked off every other year or every 5 years anyway.  The fires not only volatilized organic matter but also changed nutrient content of the topsoil.  But that's just LL pine's story.  Lob was just a wetland/swamp oriented pine with a limited range on the coast, compared to ll pine.  Some people rake lob straw but I never got that as it rots so quickly.

No one wants loblolly pinestraw...slash straw is cheap. People want that longleaf.

WDH

It is superior, that is for sure.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

nativewolf

Quote from: WDH on July 18, 2019, 08:36:50 PM
It is superior, that is for sure.
Absolutely, I think it is the most attractive mulch around.  Just expensive but for bedded residential landscapes it is just the best.  I wonder if W has changed tack now?  Before our family left the coast we planted our last farm in Longleaf.  It came in great (90 site index) but later owners never burned the site so sweetgum really invaded and I doubt the straw is any good.  100 acres of longleaf pine straw gone to heck.  Breaks my heart.
Liking Walnut

WDH

W fertilizes a lot of acres so strawing would take away some of the benefits of that for sure.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

TimW

My vote is for Long Leaf Pine.  We need more if it.  Long leaf forests down here were almost wiped out by early loggers.
hugs,  Brandi
Mahindra 6520 4WD with loader/backhoe and a Caterpiller E70 Excavator.  My mill is a Woodmizer LT40HD Wide 35hp Yanmar Diesel. An old Lull 644D-34 called Bull

wisconsitom

May as well say it again, but in the north, I think the hybrid larch is a serious tree to consider.  It will simply outperform most any other softwood.  It will also tend to yield valuable fiber.

This is yet another case of a tree producing wide growth rings, this time in the north.  But we tend to find great qualities in this wood.  Time will tell and the blocks need thinning but I think these are going to be good.  So far, a disease and pest-free tree that wants to put on right around 4 feet of height increment each growing season.  This on land that would be classified as good for forestry.  
Ask me about hybrid larch!

Klunker

Quote from: PC-Urban-Sawyer on December 12, 2012, 10:54:37 AM
Quote from: Claybraker on December 10, 2012, 10:16:08 PM
... Atlanta was established as a railroad town at the bottom of the Appalachian Mountains, unfortunately that mean it was also located on the Continental Divide. ...

As I was taught geography in the early 1960's, things may have changed a bit since then, but I thought THE Continental Divide in North America was the one running roughly North and South along the Rocky Mountains. I've never heard of the term being applied to the Smokey Mountains chain, although I suppose it does divide that section of the continent into northern and southern watersheds...

Just struck me funny, using that terminology in this case.

Herb
There is a Continental divide in WI also. Divides water flowing into the Mississippi which ends up in the Gulf or The Great lakes which end up in the Atlantic on the East Coast.

SwampDonkey

Tom, good for firewood if nothing else. ;D



Finger for scale. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

wisconsitom

What do you have there, Swamp?  Tamarack?
Ask me about hybrid larch!

Don P

Headin out the door to have some grading done, not meaning to step on your Q Tom just sticking it up on my way out, carry on :)

This is from my pocket grading handbook;






SYP strength properties were re-evaluated and reduced, IIRC in '13 for #2 it is very close to SPF numbers. If I need spanning strength I have to hunt down #1. Aside from more juvenile I see more compression wood in all fast growth dimensional softwood lumber nowadays whether ours or from Europe.
E, stiffness, will go up but Fb, bending strength crashes.

More divide trivia. The New River is our watershed. Although I'm east of the continental divide the New predates the Appalachians and cut through them as they rose. I believe it is the only river with headwaters on the east of the divide that drains into the Gulf.

wisconsitom

Some real good info there, Don P.  Thanks!
Ask me about hybrid larch!

SwampDonkey

Tom, plantation tamarack. Grows fast, but not very straight and full of spiral. Axe won't even split it and it is not huge diameter, so I am getting it before it gets big. :D It was over topping some natural white spruce, so I removed the tamarack to let the spruce grow free.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

wisconsitom

Funny how I've always felt that you guys to our east have it better.  What I mean is that more precip is associated with more tree growth generally and I always think that you guys can grow better stuff than us here in the north-central US.  But we're now at New England precip levels here in the so-called Upper Midwest, coming to right around  50 inches on the year.  I associate Places like NB with New England tendencies.

But we can grow great tamarack in Wisconsin.  I'm not talking about stressed-out stuff growing in bogs that never allow their roots to breather decently, but just upshore a bit, where the better drainage really lets the tree take off.  On good sites here, tamarack is a straight-boled tree with the ability to rapidly attain size.

I traveled through the state of Maine with my family as a kid.  I was already a tree geek then.  Where the Holiday Inn in Bangor's parking lot ended, the tamaracks began.  In that long-ago day, it looked like tamaracks could grow all over Maine.
Ask me about hybrid larch!

SwampDonkey

I've seen it grow fairly straight in thick stands. But if spaced out, limby and crooked. Bears like to climb them to and bend them to the ground, after them cones. They think they are squirrels and monkeys up here.  :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Clark

Quote from: wisconsitom on December 11, 2019, 11:39:48 AM
Funny how I've always felt that you guys to our east have it better.  What I mean is that more precip is associated with more tree growth generally and I always think that you guys can grow better stuff...

But we can grow great tamarack in Wisconsin.  I'm not talking about stressed-out stuff growing in bogs that never allow their roots to breather decently...
If you're growing veneer quality maple (which WI does and MN does not) I've often wondered if it got better than that? Looking at EHP's photos apparently it does.

If WI can grow great tamarack then MN must grow earth-shattering tamarack. While it is rare, there are bog sites where tamarack can do very close to 1 cord/acre/year, at least through year 40 or so. It doesn't naturally occur on uplands here but does grow well when it happens, usually after human-induced disturbance.
Now, back to the future of SYP...
Clark
SAF Certified Forester

WDH

Quote from: Clark on December 11, 2019, 06:01:08 PM
Now, back to the future of SYP...
Clark
It definitely will not be replaced with tamarack. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Southside

Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 11, 2019, 08:24:14 AM
Tom, good for firewood if nothing else. ;D



Finger for scale. :)
I guarantee you that I could not sell flooring made from that log.  I don't even think my lap siding would turn out very well with grain like that.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
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SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Quote from: Southside on December 11, 2019, 08:49:02 PM
Quote from: SwampDonkey on December 11, 2019, 08:24:14 AM
Tom, good for firewood if nothing else. ;D



Finger for scale. :)
I guarantee you that I could not sell flooring made from that log.  I don't even think my lap siding would turn out very well with grain like that.  
That would be a wise decision. :D :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

wisconsitom

My initial comparison was to that of the hybrid larch, not tamarack.  I did discuss tamarack later, but the tree that I will always tout-and with good reason-is the hybrid larch, which gets planted on upland sites in cool climate areas.

Carry on, gentlemen.
Ask me about hybrid larch!

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