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General Forestry => Drying and Processing => Topic started by: Sedgehammer on July 02, 2021, 05:06:43 PM

Title: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 02, 2021, 05:06:43 PM
I had posted this also in general and realized that this might be the better place for it.

I know if one kilns a post that size to dry, you don't have a post. Just wondering if there is any amount of time that one could dry it and not ruin the post. Some checks are fine

No, the post doesn't need to be that big, but because it can be, it shall be...... ;D

Thanks
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: doc henderson on July 03, 2021, 04:34:36 PM
I assume this is for a post and beam, not a fence post.   :) 
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: btulloh on July 03, 2021, 04:48:10 PM
Perhaps a sho shugi ban treatment would toast the sap on the outside. It would look good at least. 
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 03, 2021, 05:05:13 PM
@btulloh (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29962) negatory ghost rider. A rub whether on purpose or not wood render one charred..... ;D


@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) yes post and metal beam. It needn't be that big, but why not....... ;D


No matter the size, still wonder how to set the sap
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Don P on July 03, 2021, 09:06:45 PM
Saturated steam, not real DIY friendly.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 03, 2021, 10:37:59 PM
Saturated steam, not real DIY friendly.
Agreed. Have a place I've bought our rc. They have a kiln. Any thoughts on a short duration heating ???
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Don P on July 04, 2021, 06:32:22 AM
I only know the theory. In a commercial steam kiln you would run up the temp in a very high humidity environment to avoid drying and checking but "boiling" the volatiles in the pitch. I seriously doubt anyone has done it with that dimension or would be willing to try, nor would it be affordable for one.

In green log homes if the pitch runs or beads you "freeze" it by rubbing it with ice and scrape it off.

Running low heat and high humidity the first couple of winters will help with checking till the core catches up. A surface finish that can breathe but slows surface drying will help as well, an oil rather than a film. We used to use "Seasonite" from Flood but it is no longer available. Heritage is probably the closest.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 04, 2021, 08:11:55 AM
I only know the theory. In a commercial steam kiln you would run up the temp in a very high humidity environment to avoid drying and checking but "boiling" the volatiles in the pitch. I seriously doubt anyone has done it with that dimension or would be willing to try, nor would it be affordable for one.

In green log homes if the pitch runs or beads you "freeze" it by rubbing it with ice and scrape it off.

Running low heat and high humidity the first couple of winters will help with checking till the core catches up. A surface finish that can breathe but slows surface drying will help as well, an oil rather than a film. We used to use "Seasonite" from Flood but it is no longer available. Heritage is probably the closest.
What do you think wood happen if it was put in a kiln for a few days or a week or so?
How big of a deal wood the sap bleed in your opine?
Will not be sealing it. Staining perhaps

What is the advantage of Heritage do you think?
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: WDH on July 04, 2021, 08:38:31 AM
I think that much heat and high humidity would damage my kiln so a
I would never ever do that for a post.

However, my kiln is a dehumidification kiln, not a steam kiln.   Might be ok to do in a steam kiln if you can find one.  
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Stephen1 on July 04, 2021, 08:41:13 AM
I do lots of EWP pine beams, fireplace mantles. The IDRY goes to 160 which sets the pitch. I would put your post in for 1-2 weeks and run the regular cycle. The pitch get set and the checking starts on the beam. It alos sterilizes it. This is still all experimental to me, but the customers like it also and I haven't had any complaints.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 04, 2021, 10:49:05 AM
I do lots of EWP pine beams, fireplace mantles. The IDRY goes to 160 which sets the pitch. I would put your post in for 1-2 weeks and run the regular cycle. The pitch get set and the checking starts on the beam. It alos sterilizes it. This is still all experimental to me, but the customers like it also and I haven't had any complaints.
I have read lots of reports saying same about that type of kiln for posts. Trouble is finding one. None local as far as I can search

What wood happen if just a conventional kiln for a shorter period of time of a week or so ?
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Stephen1 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:20 PM
That I donít know. 
Why do you need to set the pitch? Is it going in your house? 
What would happen if you set up a small insulated box with a heater and cooked the post for a few days? 
Can you saw it oversized, heat it for a few days get it up to the 160 range . 
Then resaw It?
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 04, 2021, 11:50:52 PM
That I don’t know.
Why do you need to set the pitch? Is it going in your house?
What would happen if you set up a small insulated box with a heater and cooked the post for a few days?
Can you saw it oversized, heat it for a few days get it up to the 160 range .
Then resaw It?
In my shop which is our temporary home until the house is done. I'd say 5 years or so
Thoughtin. That's an idea
Negative on the re-saw
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 07, 2021, 12:20:06 PM
anyone else have any thoughts on kiln drying this sized post for a week or so on how it wood affect it ? thanks
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: doc henderson on July 07, 2021, 12:44:44 PM
I wonder if using a propane torch on the surface would dry up the outside and set pitch for a quarter inch or so.  might allow some finish.  how many of the posts will you be doing?  can you get and old culvert pipe, paint it black and put a fan in the end?  rapid dry.  the biggest problem is the small surface area to volume ratio.  by nature takes more time.  you can also add heat to set the pitch but then be good to insulate.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Don P on July 07, 2021, 05:55:29 PM
By heating and drying the shell over a still green core you're setting up a serious checking scenario. That is the purpose of a very high humidity environment at that temp. I'd let it go and deal with the pitch, if its even a problem, later.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: cabindoc on July 08, 2021, 05:29:09 AM
I do lots of EWP pine beams, fireplace mantles. The IDRY goes to 160 which sets the pitch. I would put your post in for 1-2 weeks and run the regular cycle. The pitch get set and the checking starts on the beam. It alos sterilizes it. This is still all experimental to me, but the customers like it also and I haven't had any complaints.
I agree with Stephen1 
I do nothing but big pine posts in my kiln.  Granted I am a newb to kilnology, but I have been in the log home industry for over 20 years.  I know some mfr's who would kiln said posts and I know of a majority of those who would ship and build wet.  shrinkage is minimal as a post.  I just spoke to Kguy about this yesterday.  run though dehum process until you get to 12% on the surface, I think he said like 25% in the core and then set your temp to 160.  1 day per inch for 1-3" after that, 1/2 day per inch.  so a load of 10" posts would be at that temp for about 6 1/2 days.  Even if you don't get the core to 160, sap only needs to be set a few inches of the surface.  Not likely going to bleed out from 4" under the surface unless you have a check that deep and temps are above room temp....you never said if this is interior?  or outside facing south...?
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 08, 2021, 08:49:00 AM
@Don P (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=17) oh, so it's not an automatic that there's going to be a sap?

@cabindoc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=47964) interior. I don't have access to a vacuum kiln. My understanding is that is the only type of kiln to use for posts, so was wondering what wood happen and if any benefit to just putting it in a conventional kiln for a short period of time
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: K-Guy on July 08, 2021, 09:21:35 AM

For something that put in a kiln for a 7 days at 160įF you would set the pitch for most of the beam but depending on moisture content and species, you may not get the core set. That is what is usually done with beams this thick, they count on the outside pitch be set to seal in the unset pitch but and holes for bolts or tenons could allow some to seep out. While you are doing this the heat would also be pushing water out and stressing it due to uncontrolled drying and you will probably have defects from this. I will guarantee you will have more cracking than would if you dried properly over a long period.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: doc henderson on July 08, 2021, 10:45:57 AM
that said, you can make them oversized, and saw down to size after.  if possible.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: florida on July 08, 2021, 11:49:28 AM
I've built dozens of piling houses with 8 X 8 and 12 X 12 treated pine posts. I've never noted any serious bleeding from any of them and never had a customer complaint about it either. I think it's a non-issue.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 08, 2021, 09:04:29 PM
I've built dozens of piling houses with 8 X 8 and 12 X 12 treated pine posts. I've never noted any serious bleeding from any of them and never had a customer complaint about it either. I think it's a non-issue.
You're my friend....... ;D

@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) I really don't have anything to recut something this big and 18" sq take a pretty big log to begin with

@K-Guy (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=35658) don't the more beat up and twisted the better to a point, but don't want to ruin the integrity of the post either. i'll just leave it like Don and florida mentioned
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: doc henderson on July 08, 2021, 09:20:02 PM
I did say "if possible".  and I agree you can just go with it.  If you do not plan to mill your own, then not sure you can find that "theoretical 18 x 18 anyway.  good luck!  :)
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Southside on July 08, 2021, 09:37:42 PM
Ok - but treated posts are dried down to below 26% MC before being placed into a vacuum chamber, being drawn down more, then having treatment applied under pressure into the now dry wood fiber.  Not really the same comparison.   
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 08, 2021, 09:41:43 PM
I did say "if possible".  and I agree you can just go with it.  If you do not plan to mill your own, then not sure you can find that "theoretical 18 x 18 anyway.  good luck!  :)
Yup, you did
Already found it..... ;D
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Don P on July 08, 2021, 10:18:25 PM
Basically with any drying, if surface tension perpendicular to grain, caused by shrinkage of the shell over the swollen green core, exceeds tensile strength of the wood perp to grain (which is the weak direction in wood) checking begins. In a radical drying scenario like this one surface checking begins all over the timber. There would be many "tears" in the fabric of the wood. They wouldn't necessarily be all that apparent immediately, the core moisture would rise, swell the shell and close them but the tear has occurred. Later as the timber continues to dry those tears continue to enlarge and severe checking shows itself. Remilling won't cure that. Too aggressive a drying schedule or mishandling wood early on bites you later.

I sawed some white oak one time in early June. Clear, dry conditions, a highly refractory (check prone, low tension perp strength) species. I stickered onto my trailer then drove uncovered about 10 miles to deliver the wood. When I arrived it was all checked. I acknowledged my mistake to the farmer and luckily he was fine with it saying it was just fence boards. By the time we had unloaded, the moisture rose from the wet core to the dry surface. The checks closed and the wood appeared fine. No, the tears were there and just like the initial tear in fabric, hard to start but once begun it runs easily. I had ruined that lumber by mishandling it at high moisture.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: cabindoc on July 09, 2021, 05:31:26 AM
that said, you can make them oversized, and saw down to size after.  if possible.
Definitely!  even an inch bigger.  
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: K-Guy on July 09, 2021, 08:19:03 AM
don't the more beat up and twisted the better to a point, but don't want to ruin the integrity of the post either


That character you are talking about often weakens the wood.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 09, 2021, 08:39:21 AM
don't the more beat up and twisted the better to a point, but don't want to ruin the integrity of the post either


That character you are talking about often weakens the wood.
Yes it does. I like some of that, but not too much due to what you mentioned
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: doc henderson on July 09, 2021, 08:59:39 AM
so what did you find in an 18 inch square size?  any pics of these beams.
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: Sedgehammer on July 13, 2021, 10:00:40 AM
so what did you find in an 18 inch square size?  any pics of these beams.
SYP. Picking up in a couple of weeks or so
Title: Re: Can a 18" sq SYP post be kiln dried for a short period of time to help set sap ?
Post by: cabindoc on July 23, 2021, 05:20:24 AM
Since it has not been brought up, ask the seller of your big beams when the tree was felled.  If cut down in winter months, sap will be down and will be minimal.  If cut down summer months, sap will be plentiful and you will likely get sap all over yourself just handling the beam.   We expect pics when u pick it up.....just sayin.....