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Couple of basic questions

Started by bartfc, August 08, 2006, 12:52:19 PM

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bartfc

I am planning to build a 26' wide 2 story TF building - I am going to saw my own timbers. My current mill can saw up to a 21' long timber. In your opinion, would I be better in designing the bents using shorter timbers (up to 21') or should I get an extension for my mill that will allow me to saw 26'+ timbers so I can have a continuous tie beam?? Anybody have any basic bent designs that they would recommend using either approach? I am planning on designing my own frame, and then have it checked by a PE. This will be my first full blown frame so I would llike to keep the joinery as simple as possible.

Also - do you guys make your own wooden pegs? On a lathe? I don't have access to a lathe so is there some other (relatively easy) way to make them or is their a recommended supplier people use?

Thanks in advance for any help!!

Raphael

Quote from: bartfc on August 08, 2006, 12:52:19 PM
I am planning to build a 26' wide 2 story TF building

  From the rest of your question it sounds like you may mean 26' deep, what's the other dimension going to be?
If your really mean the structure is going to be 26' deep then an extension may be worth your while depending on it's cost and the final design of the structure.

I got my pegs from Scott Northcott: http://www.pegs.us/
I gave some thought to making my own as I had to modify his 1" pegs to custom fit ~7/8" peg holes in my existing frame, but there are over 150 ¾" pegs in the frame in addition to another 100 or so of the larger pegs.  I figure the time saved is well worth the money spent.

  A good way to make you own is start with short (~16") straight grained hardwood logs rive them into ~peg diameter squares and then shave them into shape (round or octagonal) with a plane, chisel or drawknife.  For octagonal pegs you usually rive the squares a little undersized so the finished produce is a little undersized on the flats and oversized at the corners.  A shaving horse and drawknife are ideal for this and a simple plank with one to three holes (for drawbore pegs) to test the finished pegs.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

bartfc

Overall building is going to be 26' x 48'. I was thinking probably 5 bents.

Raphael

  Sounds like 5 bents depending on how you space them to fit the floor plan and you'll probably need three posts in each bent to handle the second floor load, four will work without looking too cluttered.  The bents don't have to all have the same number of posts, some could have three and others four.  I think at this point you need to look at how you want your rooms layed out and see if it suggests spacing of bents and positions for interior posts, this will help in determining the final form of your bents.  Graph paper is really handy for this step.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

mark davidson

at this size I would suggest a queenpost frame.
full length tiebeam with single post in the center
two posts above the tie beam supporting purlins which support the center of the rafters
I recently build my own mill extension at very low cost... If I was you I would go for at least 32 ft of bed

I like octagonal pegs
rip straight grained hardwood on a table saw to .95 of your hole size
then pass the square pieces over a router table/chamfer bit to take off the corners.


MSU_Keith

Is there a general guideline for the most efficient frame type for a given footprint?  I understand species, timber sizes, appearence, etc all play a role but what about purely from a cost/time standpoint.

When I first read Barts initial post I envisioned a full two story, the queenpost frame sounds more like a raised cape or 1.5 story.  Lets say for this size frame (26' x 48') is there a 'most efficient' frame design from an amount of timbers/ joint cutting time standpoint assuming you still want some useable second floor space?

Raphael

Quote from: MSU_Keith on August 09, 2006, 09:43:02 AM
Is there a general guideline for the most efficient frame type for a given footprint?  I understand species, timber sizes, appearence, etc all play a role but what about purely from a cost/time standpoint.

  I'd say that whatever design used the fewest elements without posing a material supply problem is the most efficient.  One way to get an idea what this will look like is find an old working storage barn of the same size and see how it was framed, generally speaking nobody is investing any extra time or materials when they build a barn for general storage.  Livestock barns have other considerations and are designed to be efficient to work in rather than build.

QuoteWhen I first read Barts initial post I envisioned a full two story, the queenpost frame sounds more like a raised cape or 1.5 story.  Lets say for this size frame (26' x 48') is there a 'most efficient' frame design from an amount of timbers/ joint cutting time standpoint assuming you still want some useable second floor space?

  Actually what Mark described is a full two story frame, the queens would be in the attic space sitting on the full length tie below the attic floor.  Below that level the height of the frame is determined by the height of the posts.
  I think I'd make the second floor beam full length as well, that's mainly a raising consideration, it can raise as H bents then slip the prick posts in or raise with lower prick installed.  I have a friend with a Volvo excavator I can call on for raisings, plenty of power but not stabilized for high heavy loads, otherwise I'm hand raising.
  This also gives you the option of placing the upper ties above the plates which expands your roof line options (mine cantilevers 1' for a nice soffit detail and a bit more attic space) and opens the possibility of raising assembled trusses with a crane for a principle rafter/common purlin type roof system.
... he was middle aged,
and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
--Godley & Creme

Stihl 066, MS 362 C-M & 24+ feet of Logosol M7 mill

TW

Arkansawyer published a peg making setup for tablesaw on this forum a while ago. It was for oktangonal pegs. How can it be found in the archives?
I do not timberframe so i cannot give proper advice on the rest of the questions.

Jim_Rogers

I used the search page and entered pegs.
Then clicked on check all and removed all checks but timber framing and archives.
It listed several but on number 14 I found the picture of the jig.

Here is the link to the story:

Click here for link to peg jig story....

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Thomas-in-Kentucky

Bart,

octagonal pegs ripped on a table saw work great.  I found that black locust pegs are superior to white oak pegs (we used them both).  Black locust is stronger and has less tendency to split.

Definitely go for a continuous tie beam, and maybe see if you can fit your dreams into 24 feet instead of 26 feet.  I really like the queen post bent too... redundancy is a good thing.

I sawed 26' timbers on my 21' woodmizer without a bed extension.  For my frame, I needed less than 12 timbers that were longer than 21 feet, so I did not buy the bed extension.  I sawed 21 feet, then used a chainsaw (and then a handsaw) to cut the slab or board from the log.  Rolled the log, did the same thing for all four sides.  Timber at that point looked like a regular timber with a 5' stump glued to the end of it.  Then, you raise the bed rollers and shove the timber/log onto the mill 5 more feet.  Continue cutting four more times (or 8 times if you cut each face at least twice, which I always did).

It works.  I would not want to try going more than 26 or 27 feet.  24 feet is pretty easy.  25 feet is not bad.  At 27 feet (I did 2 of these - and they were five sided timbers!), the log end of the timber wants to sag (and tip off the end of your mill! be careful!) - I temporarily supported it with backhoe forks.  Also, over 27 feet, you'll have to worry about the stump or finished timber interfering with bed rails or the control station when you try to slide it further up on the mill.

If money is tight, and you don't need more than half a dozen 21' to 26' timbers in the next 4 years, I'd recommend sawing the timbers like I did and buying yourself a chain mortiser with the money you would have spent on the bed extension.  The bed extension can save you maybe 10 hours on your project and the chain mortiser can save you hundreds of hours- they are about the same price.

-Thomas


Engineer

I used a combination queenpost/kingpost design.  It's somewhat unusual.  Jim Rogers has seen it and might comment - I can send you a picture if you want.    I span 32' with my trusses, I used four bents over 42' length.

I used octagonal white oak peg stock premade on a molding machine.  We cut the pegs to length, pointed them on a table saw jig and rejected any that had squirrely grain.    Next frame (barn/shop) will use octagonal stock as well.

hayton1960

Hi Bart

I just made about 120+ pegs in a day from ash. Some 1 inch some 3/4 inch
Rived them out the log with axe and beetle, the blanks follow the grain usually if its clear decent wood, use my sharp axe to square them to >3/4" or >1", then used sharp opinel knife to whittle octagonal shape, test fitted in holes in an oak plank, sharpened with axe, tapered slightly. After a while you can feel the correct size even without a test fit. Theyre now drying out. I left them rough arrises as the frame will be soft wood (spruce or pine) My instinct is to rive (split) for max strength, sawing might give you short grain, same as with windsor chair spindles and legs.

Good luck with your project

PS some of the pegs at Coggeshall barn are 1 1/2 inch diameter, its a BIG frame :D

hayton1960


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