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Author Topic: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level  (Read 5367 times)

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Offline fishfighter

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Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« on: March 02, 2015, 07:21:49 AM »
OK, this is what I have. 8x8 post, then I have two beams 6 1/2x 6 1/2 and a third that is 6 1/2x 8 wide. I need these to join together at the same level on top of the post.

What joint would be best to use in this case?

Thanks

Offline beenthere

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2015, 10:09:29 AM »
Sorry, I don't visualize what you are wanting. Maybe others will. A pic or two of your design would help.

   Are all three beams joining together like a T on top of the one post?

What is happening?
south central Wisconsin
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Offline Dave Shepard

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 10:32:42 AM »
There really is no good joint to do that. It really weakens the post. There may be some ways around it, like a larger post or possibly a spline connecting two opposite timbers. Without a lot more information, it is hard to say.
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Offline fishfighter

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2015, 02:01:09 PM »
Was going to do a "T" over the post. I could splice the 6 1/2 x 6 1/2 beams as one before the top of the post which I was planning, but I still have the problem jointing the cross beam that is 6 1/2 x 8.

Another thing I been kicking around is instead of a post, I was thinking of getting a oak tree, dig it up and cutting just above the root ball and then mill about 1/3 off the back side. I could used something a bit bigger then 8x8 if need be. The span across the area is going to be 13 1/2'. If I do the tree/post, I will want to do the other side the same. The cross beam will not be a bearing weight beam other then 3x8 rafters every 36" and 3/4" red oak ceiling t&g. Going above that, I will be installing truss's that will not be touching the cross beam.

Offline Heartwood

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2015, 03:55:44 PM »
As Dave says, a spline joint might work, or you can check out the various "tie at plate level" solutions from the Historic American Timber Joinery graphic guide available for free on the Timber Framers Guild website. We really need to see the configuration and orientation of the beams to make a recommendation.

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2015, 05:18:34 PM »
A spline joint will not work. I'm trying to get all beams on the same level. By cutting into the post to make the spline joint, there wouldn't be enough wood left to set the cross beam, or so I think so.

Back to the drawing board. I will figure out something. ;D

Was thinking maybe doing a kneebrace for the 6x6 beam and then do a tenon on the cross beam into the 6x6 beam. The post being 8x8 and the cross beam being 6x8, that would give the cross beam 2" to rest on the post. Of course I will have braces tied in too!

Offline Heartwood

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2015, 05:50:22 PM »
Splines don't just go through posts, The post shouldn't extend up into the plane of the beams. One option:


Lot's more options in Historic American Timber Joinery.

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2015, 08:14:17 PM »
Went there and checked. Nothing at all. Didn't see anything that even comes close. But instead of a tenon for the cross beam, maybe a joint something like a joist/sill joint. Then pin it into the other beam.

More rain again tomorrow. 4.5" so far today and mud everywhere.

I had went to harbor freight today looking for some wheel casters. I was planning on building some small dolly's. 2 of them. Was going to take a 2x6x12 and screw the caster wheels at the  bottom ends on one side, then take another 2x6x12, drill a hole in the center and thru the center of the other 2x, then counter sink the top 2x and run a bolt thru both, adding a washer in between. Was going to build two. Add a eye hook to the sides to put a ratchet belt to go across. This was for moving post and beams around as needed on concrete. But they had something already made up. A 3 wheel plant caster. Not strong, but should last long enough for what I have to do and cost $4 each. ;D

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2015, 08:56:12 PM »
The first problem I have with your idea about joining three pieces at one point, the top of a post, is that you're asking the pieces to be as strong as they can be at this point to hold the load that they will hold. And then you cut away part of them to make the joint. This weakens the timber at the point where you need it to be as strong as it can be.

How can you ask it to be as strong as it can be and then cut away part of it.

We normally move the joint to the side of the post not directly over it.
Then the piece is as strong as it can be over the post.

I have written a lot about this here on the forum. About the placing of the scarf.

If you move the end to end joint of the two 6x6 timbers off to the side of the post, you can put a short tenon on the top of the post to secure these joined two 6x6's to the post. Then above that you can put in a horizontal tenon to hold the 6x8 to them like this:

 

 

As both end to end joined pieces are 6x6 there is, as you have mentioned 2" of post left to sit the 6x8 onto. The tenon will hold the piece there.

Just my idea about this.

Jim Rogers
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Offline Roger Nair

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2015, 10:03:24 PM »
Without frame details any suggestions just might be worthless, however I'm very ill at ease with the small sections, so I might go in the direction of capping the post with a braced 8 x 8  bolster with a vertical half-lapped scarf with a wedged tenon of the third beam lock the scarf.
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Offline Dave Shepard

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2015, 10:06:25 PM »
At this point, we don't even know what these timbers are doing. It sounds like a tie at plate, as heartwood suggested. Can we get a rough sketch of what you are trying to do?
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Offline shinnlinger

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2015, 10:20:09 PM »
Like this?
Shinnlinger
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34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2015, 05:42:36 AM »
Like this?
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

BINGO! What joints were used? And thanks all for y'all's input.

Jim, I was going to scarf the 6x6's over a brace, not over the post. I did read up on as to why doing it there from one of your posts. In fact, I had read all posting in this section of the forum. A lot of great info. Bad thing is that as one gets closer to the end, more info is lost or just not there anymore.

Offline Hilltop366

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2015, 08:36:10 AM »
Wondering about a gunstock post?  This one is 8x8 on the bottom and 8x12 on top, the tree (post) is upside down from the way it was grown.

I know I know... there are no braces because all but one would have been in the way, the house is enclosed with well braced 2x6 stick framed walls as well as braces in the interior dividing walls.

 

 

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2015, 08:56:06 AM »
I could do that too! Nice. Now some good ideas are coming. Thanks a bunch.

I will be starting my lay out today if the rain holds out.

I never did a timber build and this is going to be my first. I did stick build my house from the ground up. Woodworking is something I been doing all my life, more so in boat building. I give free classes on building pirogues for first time boat builder twice a year. Trying to past on something I learn at 8 years old.

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2015, 08:45:48 PM »
Got a couple post lay out and cut the bottoms that will go into the sills and mortised the brace areas.

My power buy at Harbor Freight coaster wheel/plant dolly worked like a champ moving the post. Heck, they say it's rated at 180Lbs. Like to know what a 8x8x10' red oak fresh fell weights in at, but had no problem moving them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Coaster wheels to move the post.

 

 

And of course area around my mill. 4 1/2" of rain yesterday with more to come. Got to the point that I'm throwing scrap cut off's on top of fresh dirt that I moved in.

 

 

Offline shinnlinger

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2015, 09:18:01 PM »
OK,

My posts go thru the floor for a knee wall but I tied my 5 bents together with what I called eve ties as I had access to a crane and my sawmill couldn't make 50 footers. 
The posts are 8x10, the floor beams are 8x8 and the ties are 6x10.
MY tenons are 2" and the beam pocket is notched in.









 
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34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2015, 09:47:52 PM »
Thanks, kind of what I though you did. If I go with a post there, I will do the same. I'm really still kicking the idea of using a tree log there and across. I would mill one side flat about 1/4- 1/3 of the way towards the walls.

Thanks again.

Oh, the post will set into the sills that will be 8x8's if I can get to some white Oak trees on my place. I have a lot of water everywhere right now.

Offline shinnlinger

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2015, 09:53:32 PM »
When I milled my frame I tried to have full dimensioned sticks but now wish I had done more things like tree logs, live edge curved braces and stuff like that.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Best joint to use on tieing three beams at same level
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2015, 07:00:01 AM »
On my braces, they will be curved. My stock for them is 3x8. I will try to lay one out maybe tomorrow. 81F today and another cold front tomorrow coming. Backwards day were the temp suppose to drop fast and they giving a chance of sleet/snow here. That is something that don't happen here often.

Hospital/infusion day. :'(


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