Narrow Kerf Chains and Bars

[SawTroll]

Standard .375 (3/8) sprocket nose Niko.

Surely, but my question was about the size (number of teeth in nose sprocket).

[HolmenTree]

Standard .375 (3/8) sprocket nose Niko.

Surely, but my question was about the size (number of teeth in nose sprocket).

Niko, my eye sight must be going. I re-read that question you asked me about that Cannon bar.
I thought you said 91 nose (Oregon 91 pitch chain).Now I see the t :D
Yes the nose is a 9 tooth  sprocket tip.

[SawTroll]

Thanks - it looked that way. 

I assume they are relatively light then, with the slim profile - but there are of course disadvantages with small bar noses.

[HolmenTree]

Thanks - it looked that way. 

I assume they are relatively light then, with the slim profile - but there are of course disadvantages with small bar noses.

The forestry company I worked for back in the day when we were logging with chainsaws had a safety policy, that only small radius bar noses were to be used.
Kickback injuries were non existent with our high powered saws with short bars.  Bore cutting with this b/c setup is very smooth and agile, anyone who differs in opinion doesn't know what they're talking about or just never have tried them.
Only drawback with small radius noses is durability and chain derailing when using standard 3/8 chain.
That's why we used the lower profile  Oregon 76/77LG and Stihl 33TS chain to curb the problem.

[CR888]

In Stihl's Australian 2015 catalogue they have a performance kit for the ms261 which is an 8tooth picco rim (silly micro spline size), 18" rollermatic e picco bar and a loop of PS3(full chisel picco). I think they claim it gives a twenty percent increase in cutting speed. Unless cutting clean green wood with top handles ect our wood down under gives picco chain a hard time.

[HolmenTree]

In Stihl's Australian 2015 catalogue they have a performance kit for the ms261 which is an 8tooth picco rim (silly micro spline size), 18" rollermatic e picco bar and a loop of PS3(full chisel picco). I think they claim it gives a twenty percent increase in cutting speed. Unless cutting clean green wood with top handles ect our wood down under gives picco chain a hard time.

Here in Canada the MS241CM is available with that kit too but in 7tooth Picco rim though. Great setup for harvesting conifer pulpwood.
I have a 8Tooth Picco rim [part#0000 642 1241] and it's a good 1/16" in diameter larger then a standard 3/8 rim.
Part # for the 7Tooth rim is 0000 642 1240.

[Rex Renolds]

What size (tooth) Picco rim would you recommend using with the 9 tooth nose sprocket of the Cannon Super Mini bar mounted on a MS261 C-M?   are there different size noses sprockets available for the super mini in the picco pitch and if so what would be the ideal rim and nose sprocket to run on my saw with the picco setup?

    Thanks
         -Rex

[SawTroll]

In Stihl's Australian 2015 catalogue they have a performance kit for the ms261 which is an 8tooth picco rim (silly micro spline size), 18" rollermatic e picco bar and a loop of PS3(full chisel picco). I think they claim it gives a twenty percent increase in cutting speed. Unless cutting clean green wood with top handles ect our wood down under gives picco chain a hard time.

In my book there are two flaws with that kit;

1) The 8-pin rim should have been a 7-pin
2) Putting "green" chain in a "performance" kit is an insult.

[HolmenTree]

What size (tooth) Picco rim would you recommend using with the 9 tooth nose sprocket of the Cannon Super Mini bar mounted on a MS261 C-M?   are there different size noses sprockets available for the super mini in the picco pitch and if so what would be the ideal rim and nose sprocket to run on my saw with the picco setup?

    Thanks
         -Rex

The Cannon Super Mini bar is a rebadged Windsor Mini Pro design.
I replaced the nose on my 18" Cannon Super Mini bar with a Windsor Mini Pro tip.
The Cannon bar is definitely better quality then the Windsor bars but the Chinese made tips on the Cannons are crap.

Windsor Mini Pro bars came in 1/4", .325, 3/8 , 3/8 LoPro  (Picco). I got all those tips and a small inventory of new Mini Pro bars.

8 tooth Picco rims are too large for the 261 size saws, run the 7 tooth.

[SawTroll]

The Cannon Super Mini bar is a rebadged Windsor Mini Pro design.
I replaced the nose on my 18" Cannon Super Mini bar with a Windsor Mini Pro tip.
The Cannon bar is definitely better quality then the Windsor bars but the Chinese made tips on the Cannons are crap.

Are the dl counts that Cannon currently is listing for those 18" bars (75dl in .325 and 66dl in 3/8") correct in your experience?

It is a pity with the Chinese noses of course, and it is hard to understand why they do it on otherwise excellent bars?

[HolmenTree]

DL count depends on make like Stihl versus Husky.
On my 562 XP with 18" Super Mini .325 I'm running a 74DL 23RS chain. Fits perfectly as the Windsor Mini Pro tip is shorter then the tip Cannon originally supplied.
Shorter nose profile design offers a stronger bar-nose joint connection . Something Windsor figured out years ago.

[SawTroll]

DL count depends on make like Stihl versus Husky.
On my 562 XP with 18" Super Mini .325 I'm running a 74DL 23RS chain. Fits perfectly as the Windsor Mini Pro tip is shorter then the tip Cannon originally supplied.
Shorter nose profile design offers a stronger bar-nose joint connection . Something Windsor figured out years ago.

I figured it might vary slightly with saw brand, but it doesn't according to Cannon?

As 74 is with the shorter Windsor tip (the way I read it), 75 may be accurate with the original tip, or maybe even 76, on the Husky?

I assume you are using a .325x7, as that's what you recommend?

[HolmenTree]

DL count depends on make like Stihl versus Husky.
On my 562 XP with 18" Super Mini .325 I'm running a 74DL 23RS chain. Fits perfectly as the Windsor Mini Pro tip is shorter then the tip Cannon originally supplied.
Shorter nose profile design offers a stronger bar-nose joint connection . Something Windsor figured out years ago.

I figured it might vary slightly with saw brand, but it goesn't according to Cannon?

As 74 is with the shorter Windsor tip (the way I read it), 75 may be accurate with the original tip, or maybe even 76, on the Husky?

I assume you are using a .325x7, as that's what you recommend?

Here's a few pics Niko.
Yep running 7 Tooth. 325 rim. Cannon is probably specing for a 8T.
As you can see lots of slot adjustment  for the bar with the 74 DL chain.
Yes Windsor tip is shorter.
Cannon tip is shoddy, raised rivet heads and weak sprocket bearing.



  

 

[SawTroll]

How much difference do the Windsor tip vs. the Cannon one make? As it looks to me in the pictures, it should be at least one dl?

[SawTroll]

Thanks for the pictures! 

Have you measuredHow much difference do the Windsor tip vs. the Cannon one make? As it looks to me in the pictures, it should be at least one dl?

[HolmenTree]

My pleasure to post pics Niko
Not sure about DL it's been a while since I changed the tip. It just so happened Stihl's 74DL loops works out fine.
I'll have to go back to the old Oregon loops hanging on the wall to see what I was running for DL

[SawTroll]

Anyway, 74dl is a more "likeable" dl count than 75 - but 76 is even more "likeable" as it makes a "perfect loop" (all sequences are complete). This hardly matters in practical use though... :D

I have a slightly uneasy feeling about Cannon dl counts though, as they aren't always "logic", and have been changed too often (in their listings). When you aren't cutting and spinning your own loops, this is an uncertainty that you (or I in this case) don't need.

Also, Cannon may be destroying their own reputation with those Chinese bar tips, and I don't understand why they do it.

[HolmenTree]

Also, Cannon may be destroying their own reputation with those Chinese bar tips, and I don't understand why they do it.

I have had Cannon make me special order guide bars for over 30 years.
They specialize in making a high quality bar but they are not in the business making sprocket nose tips.
Seeing Windsor/Sandvik have been out of business manufacturing Mini Pro bars there is no longer a supply of those sprocket tips
So a Chinese copy cat supply can be bought.

I did get not bad service out of the Chinese tip but luckily I have a supply of OEM Windsor tips and I'm good to go.
I think Chinese product can be good quality under the right quality control. Stihl and Husqvarna have plants in China.

Remember back in the 1960s when a Japan made product was called "copy cat cheap"?
Well those Japanese Honda motorcycles that were copies of the British Nortons, BSA motorcycle turned out to be a better product then what the British could build.
Honda today owns the biggest share of Harley Davidson.
Can the Chinese do the same?

Here's a 1979 ad of the newly introduced Windsor Mini Pro bar.
Next pic compares the Windsor OEM tip to the aftermarket tip.


  

 

[SawTroll]

Well, the Windsor tip obviously is much shorter, and tapers much more abruptly as well. Is that nose a nine-pin in .325, vs, the "normal" ten-pin?

As it looks, it will "steal" effective bar length, in addition to what difference the length makes, as it tapers off too abruptly for any part of the tip to be considered for actual (effective) cutting length. As it looks to me, the Windsor "mini-pro" tips really is a very bad design, as they make you need a longer bar than other tips do (it is the same with the Oregon "double guard" tips - wasted bar length.

[HolmenTree]

Well, the Windsor tip obviously is much shorter, and tapers much more abruptly as well. Is that nose a nine-pin in .325, vs, the "normal" ten-pin?

Actually Niko that Windsor tip has a 12 tooth 1/4" sprocket.
But my .325 noses are a "normal" 10 Tooth.
What's with the "pin" terminology? We're not talking about Danzco pin sprockets here :D

As it looks, it will "steal" effective bar length, in addition to what difference the length makes, as it tapers off too abruptly for any part of the tip to be considered for actual (effective) cutting length. As it looks to me, the Windsor "mini-pro" tips really is a very bad design, as they make you need a longer bar than other tips do (it is the same with the Oregon "double guard" tips - wasted bar length.

The Windsor Mini Pro tip is only 7/16" (10mm) shorter then the Cannon Chinese tip. Hardly noticeable in my opinion.
Take another look at the Cannon tip, notice how ugly high the rivets are and how they would snag and pinch in the wood kerf.
The shorter design of the Windsor is far more superior for durability, less flex with less chance of breakage at the bar joint.
Plus less chance of the sprocket and bearings getting pinched and burning out.
Notice how the Chinese tip needed 3 extra rivets.
The shorter tip also offers less chance of chain derailing.

Now to the Oregon PowerMatch tips , the small radius 9 Tooth 3/8" Double Guard PowerMatch tip is longer then the standard 11 tooth tip, so a longer bar is not needed.

I love those Double Guard PowerMatch bars, super smooth in limbing and bore cutting and near zero  kickback energy. ;D

Awesome last pic of a low top Husqvarna 576XP AutoTune with a 20" Double Guard bar 8)


  

  

  

 

[SawTroll]

I follow you in most of what you wrote there, particularly the comments on the Chinese bar noses (tips) - but I just can't agree that "pointed" bar noses are an asset.

Of course a short bar nose will be stronger at the joint, as you say - but it also means that more of the "slap wear" from the chain ends up on the bar body itself, instead of on the replaceable nose. At least Oregon used to say that, related to their own relatively long replaceable bar noses, and I'm fairly sure that their point is valid.
This isn't something that will keep me away from this or that - just something to be aware of.

One thing is for sure though, after seeing your pictures of the Cannon noses, I am not going to buy any Cannon bars until they come up with something better - they look horrible!

10mm difference should normally mean one dl (actually slightly more, but far from two) - meaning that 75 dl likely is correct with the original nose - at least with a 7-pin drive rim.

[HolmenTree]

I follow you in most of what you wrote there, particularly the comments on the Chinese bar noses (tips) - but I just can't agree that "pointed" bar noses are an asset.

Well small radius bar noses are a great asset when they are proven to reduce kickback energy significantly preventing countless potential injuries.
Let the pro grade safety bar nose do the safety work rather then using a poor cutting yellow chain.

Of course a short bar nose will be stronger at the joint, as you say - but it also means that more of the "slap wear" from the chain ends up on the bar body itself, instead of on the replaceable nose. At least Oregon used to say that, related to their own relatively long replaceable bar noses, and I'm fairly sure that their point is valid.
This isn't something that will keep me away from this or that - just something to be aware of.

One method to prevent that.....proper chain tension.
The middle Windsor Mini Pro bar in the pic has alot of hours on it and no evidence of damage to the bar rails from "chain slap".


 

[HolmenTree]

Here's a closeup of the high hour Windsor Mini Pro bar.
You can notice a bit of indentation wear from the chain coming over the bar nose. But no where near the bar rails.
Proves the Oregon theory is a bit full of wind.
The chain wear from rotation only follows the diameter radius of the sprocket nose.
But I have seen wear and chipping of the bar rails near the joint, but that was from limbing spruce in freezing temps. Loose chain tension was the major cause.


 

[SawTroll]

I see.

[HolmenTree]

I see said the blind man :D