Question of the week....
What is your Patriot act , inquiring mind would like to learn a bit more :P
The Patriot Act is a law that was passed after 9/11 to fight terrorism. It basically gives the government the right to put someone in jail without a trial or access to an attorney.
I was of the opinion that the constitution prevented things like that but who knows. :-[ :-[
The Patriot Act was passed soon after the trajedy of 9/11/01. It gives law enforcement broader freedom of surveillance, such as wire taps and other covert types of monitoring suspected criminals. The Patriot Act (I am still trying to understand why the name) directly adresses some of the freedoms people in this country enjoy, provided by the bill of rights to our US Constitution.
Some would say the Patriot Act goes too far, some say that law enforcement (whom has been seeking such permission for decades) should have the freedoms allowed by the Patriot Act.
The poll results on the title page to the forum shows the split...I for one am undecided.
Captain
'Quis custodiet ipsos custodios?'
'Who shall guard those same guardians?'
Along the same lines as the saying- 'power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'.
The world is dangerous, and as they say, mean people suck. Terrorism is a mega version of that. But giving up freedoms for supposed safety can be a question of out of the frying pan and into a far worse fire. There are predators at all levels of society, and the govenrment is no exception.
I say, keep your freedom. Guard it vigilantly.
Didn't the Marines say something about that? lw
Called it the "patriot act" because if you called it what it really is, everyone would sh*t.
Ok Here they call it the war measures act .... It was used here in 1970 to fight the FLQ
I can see why there would be debate if they did call it what it is
I for one ,not being from the state, thought it had something to do with an anscestral law of somekind go figure
Well thanks for letting me know a little bit more ...before going off to sleep....
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
Old Ben was a pretty smart guy.
Thanks for the quote Ron.
I don't like it >:( I agree with old Ben too ;)
GREAT quote Ron....also agree with 'Quis custodiet ipsos custodios?....I dont wanna start a political debate...BUT....the Bush family makes me VERY VERY scared. My sister was in the Army for years and worked ASA,...the things that go on that some of us dont see and most of us dont want to believe is most unsettling. Take a look at the manifest of the flights that did the 911 disaster. Tellme how many " foriegn" names you see on it. Also have ANY of you see ANY pictures from 1 of the MOST secured building in the country that has constant cameras running ( Pentagon) have any of you seen any pictures of the alledged plane that went into it? seems to me there would be alot of photos and footage. Also for a plane that size to hit where it did have any of you seen any evidence on the grassy area of a planne skidding in . That grassy area is totally untouched. Now Im not trying to start some conspiricy but like I said. The Bush family scares me....ALOT
> Also for a plane that size to hit where it did have any of
> you seen any evidence on the grassy area of a
> planne skidding in
It was flown directly by a pilot into the building at 100s of mph, at what looks like to me from the size hole punched into the building and where, at least 35 degrees. Why would there be skid marks?
BULLS**T LETS ELECT A PRESIDENT THAT WILL TURN OUR MILITARY OVER TO THE UN ..LETS ELECT ONE THAT WILL LET FRANCE , GERMANY OR EVEN CANADA TELL US WHAT TO DO AND WHEN TO DO IT ..I DONT KNOW WHAT FREEDOMS ANY OF YOU HAVE LOST OVER THE PATRIOT ACT BUT I HAVEN'T LOST A *DanG ONE AND IF THERES A RAG HEAD OR ARAB THATS LOST ANYTHING TOUGH..WHAT WILL WE SAY NEXT TIME SOMETHING HAPPENS..MY FREEDOMS AT ALL COSTS :'(
As I see it, it's to far reaching and that Ben Franklin was a sharp man indeed!!! I don't know what freedom I have lost and no one can but any is to much. I am less fearful of terrorists then what the FBI may do to me ten years down the road because I checked out a book on reloading ammo and looked up on the web how to use black powder to split a WRC log so I could mill it. Thats the stuff that living hells are made of. I still vote Bush as the other guys are just flat nuts and I like most of what the man stands for. I don't ever agree 100% with any one and if I did I would think they were not telling me there true feelings but what they think I want to hear. ;) I don't think we must like every thing some one is up to for them to be a good or even great president for us, even my wife gets my goat from time to time.
Andy
I figure they will catch bin ladin in Oct. Then that will tell all.
EZ
I'm with Ben, and the libertarians. What supposedly makes us so great are the freedoms that we have, that people all over the world envy, and many risk their lives to sneak in and enjoy. Why do we value it so little that we would trade it for a false sense of security? What is so conservative about giving expanded powers to a government that has proven itself so many times to be untrustworthy? Ben and the founders limited the powers of the federal govt for good reason. And here we are talking of rolling back those limitations, because our president has declared endless war on any who would oppose our ambitions. Have we caught Osama yet? We did finally bag Saddam who in the eighties was seen shaking hands with Don Rumsfeld and getting the key to the city of Detroit, among other perks and favors. Did we act against him when he gassed his own people? No, but then in 2003 the fact that he gassed his own people is brought out as one of the reasons to go to war against him. Oh and lets not forget that Osama used to be one of our pals as well, back when the Russians were getting mired down in Afghanistan.
One little bit of the Patriot Act: the government gets the right to look at anyone's library records, with no cause or warrant, and if the librarian tells you later that your records have been examined, then SHE can be arrested and charged with a crime. Is that something that free people need? I just don't buy the theory that our freedom is a weakness that we need to do away with in order to be "safe". I don't trust the current administration at all, and in fact, a couple of days after 9/11, there were adminstration people on the TV telling us that they would NOT be telling us the truth about future developments in the new "war", because we just didn't need to know the truth and weren't really able to understand the truth even if they were to tell us. That is something that free people need? A government that lies to them for its own secret reasons? And isn't ANYONE suspicious that this whole Patriot Act, voted on without even having been READ by our representatives, was all written up and ready to go just days after 9/11? Why is it called the Patriot Act? well, that seems obvious to me. That way you can label anyone who opposes or questions it, "unpatriotic". What representative would ever vote "no" on an act that calls itself "patriot"?
Before anyone out there calls me a spineless Democrat, no, I am not a Democrat, or spineless. I did not vote for Gore and thought that he would also be a crappy president, and I'm not impressed by any of the nominees this time around either. And its not like I can't imagine needing to go to war to defend the country either. Its just that what we did with Iraq was not a defensive war, it was a preemptive invasion of a country who used to be our ally and had not attacked or threatened us. wasn't that one of the things that got Germany in trouble at nuremberg? preemptive invasion? Its not a policy that I can support, sorry. And I don't think that as wealthy and powerful as we are, we can afford to invade, conquer and change the regime of any country whose leaders harbor ill will against our leaders.
I doubt that anyone really believes we would be at war in the middle east if there was no oil there. We have stood by many, many times and tolerated brutal dictators, ethnic "cleansing" and atrocities of all kinds all over the world and never marched to war to put a stop to those acts, to "liberate" those being oppressed. Instead we have often supported the brutal dictators if it suited our needs. We were trying to do business with the Taliban in the months leading up to 9/11, but they kept demanding gold plated limosines and the like (why not? the Saudis have oil to sell too and look how nice THEY live..) and then the Taliban went off and struck deals with the Russians and the French instead of US.
My opinions might not be too popular here, but hey, that's what living in a free country is all about, right? The right to assert unpopular opinions without going to jail or being spied on...lets hope we can hang on to those ideals that made us the most powerful country on the planet.
Loving my country, but fearing and mistrusting my government,
Mark
There's a rumor going around right now, today, that Bin Laden was captured in Afghanistan, quite a while back?????
Sure would be a coincidence if he turns up around Sept.-Oct. as EZ stated???
Woodrat:
You said it so much better than I could have, thanks, and you have my support.
What bothers me the most in these political discussions is that disagreement with the current administrations or its policies is seen as beeing unpatriotic.
Personally that is largely what moves me to disagree as I hate to see the direction this country it taking.
We are a macho, chest thumping, TV driven, materialistic culture. We need to see ourselves as part of this bigger world. Just because we can and have the money to do what we want doesn't make it right.
jwood, you're all backwards. My granddads both served in WWII, and I would too, if an evil army was on the march. But when we restrict our travel, close our airports, search our children's luggage, and arrest whomever whenever... well, the terrorists have won.
If we're not willing to die defending our rights, rather than just cave in and live in fear, checking identity papers etc, then we don't deserve our freedom.
It's not so silly to claim that you'd rather die on a plane filled with bombs than be stopped for 3 hours in the airport and have your rectum checked for c4 and detonators.
JMHO
How lond had we really had Saddam in custody before we told the rest of the world? ???
Woodrat this is a reply to your post, my answers follow your quotes..Don
" What supposedly makes us so great are the freedoms that we have, that people all over the world envy, and many risk their lives to sneak in and enjoy. Why do we value it so little that we would trade it for a false sense of security? What is so conservative about giving expanded powers to a government that has proven itself so many times to be untrustworthy?"
Well," Supposedly" despite the inevitable corruption that comes with Government....the greatest nation in history....the United States, is great because of the kind of people that founded, died and suffered to develope it....and they are still the finest , bravest and kindest people on the face of the earth!
"And here we are talking of rolling back those limitations, because our president has declared endless war on any who would oppose our ambitions. "
If we do not oppose those who are against our ambitions...then we will cease to exist as a nation....if you do not stand up for something then you stand for nothing.....
Osama used to be one of our pals as well, back when the Russians were getting mired down in Afghanistan.
It is overly simplistic to say he was our pal...in fact it has been a fairly effective policy to go to trouble spots and train the people of the region to fight arm and defend themselves against tyrany....HOW DOES THAT MAKE US WRONG >>> do you infer all our nations intent and policy is in some way evil?
'One little bit of the Patriot Act: the government gets the right to look at anyone's library records, with no cause or warrant,
'
I am not so nieve to believe the N.S.A doesnt do ANYTHING it wants as well as the C.I.A.....do you believe that this is the Slippery slop that leads to our ultimate demise...to become a totalitarian state?
"I don't trust the current administration at all, and in fact, a couple of days after 9/11, there were adminstration people on the TV telling us that they would NOT be telling us the truth about future developments in the new "war", because we just didn't need to know the truth and weren't really able to understand the truth even if they were to tell us. That is something that free people need?"
I am disgusted that govenment will violate any part of our constitutional liberties.....do you think this is something NEW...At no time in our history has this NOT happened
And isn't ANYONE suspicious that this whole Patriot Act, voted on without even having been READ by our representatives, was all written up and ready to go just days after 9/11? Why is it called the Patriot Act? well, that seems obvious to me. That way you can label anyone who opposes or questions it, "unpatriotic". What representative would ever vote "no" on an act that calls itself "patriot"?
Have you ever looked at the INCREDIBLE rstrictions and intrusive steps the Federal government took during WW2?
Harsh and strick control of daily life.....in order to protect in the BIG PICTURE the very freedoms that were temporarily taken.....I would NOT have enjoyed it but wouldnt enjoy speaking japanese german either....
Before anyone out there calls me a spineless Democrat,
No one cqalled you that ....in our system and style of Government the only people I call spineless are Middle of the roaders who offer defamatory, critical and subversive opinions without even the slightest wisp of a word of A BETTER WAY or a means of GETTING THERE
." Its just that what we did with Iraq was not a defensive war, it was a preemptive invasion of a country who used to be our ally and had not attacked or threatened us. wasn't that one of the things that got Germany in trouble at nuremberg? preemptive invasion? Its not a policy that I can support, sorry. And I don't think that as wealthy and powerful as we are, we can afford to invade, conquer and change the regime of any country whose leaders harbor ill will against our leaders. "
I suppose with the logic you are espousing that if you new a guy had the means and motive as well as oppertunity to do something horrific (say kidnap and rape) that you would not only refuse to do pre emptive action you would criticise those who stopped the aggressor?
I doubt that anyone really believes we would be at war in the middle east if there was no oil there. We have stood by many, many times and tolerated brutal dictators, ethnic "cleansing" and atrocities of all kinds all over the world and never marched to war to put a stop to those acts, to "liberate" those being oppressed.
Finally,
I see no logical argument against allying with those GREY dictators or like wise in latter putting an end to them....world politics are not a matter of black and white, rather making the difficult and morally challenging decissions of the "Lesser evil"
What is wrong with going to war to protect our way of life? For oil, water or food?
plenty of precedent in world and biblical history
Don
QuoteI doubt that anyone really believes we would be at war in the middle east if there was no oil there.
Mark
Now I hear this all the time so lets think on it some without what the party's have ranted on it.
1-The guy was very bad and we all believe that right?
2-The guy would have been happy to do any horrific thing to us that he was able to, do we all believe that?
Now there are other bad men in the world that fit #1 and #2 so why do we pick on him, right? Well yes it's the oil but it's not that we want cheep oil. So far we are around 100 billion in the hole and have received around 100 grand in oil that we also paid Iraq for. So if it's the oil thats the 3rd piece of this puzzle then why is that so? Answer, the oil made him a much greater threat than all the other guys that hates us!!! :P The man had huge bucks to buy bad stuff and pitch it at us in so many ways we could never hope to keep up with all he could be up to and that is something we could not stand for! The other bad men around the world are broke and that makes them very little real thereat to us. That is why we did what we did! Yes the Dem's are right it's about oil but they are wrong on the why, it's not about greed. They know that but it plays well for them so they keep pounding at it.
Andy
I'd like to go back to the government described in the plain language of the Constitution, with the goobermint's nose outa my business, and it's hand outa my pocket. I don't mind payin' for protection, but don't like payin' for lazy, or deliberatly ignorant folks fun and games.
Excerpts from the origional
THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION:
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
Section. 4.
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
__________________________________________________
Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
Clause 2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
Clause 4: To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
Clause 5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
Clause 6: To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
Clause 7: To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
Clause 8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
Clause 9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
Clause 10: To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
Clause 11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
Clause 12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
Clause 13: To provide and maintain a Navy;
Clause 14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
Clause 15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
Clause 16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
Clause 17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, byCession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And
Clause 18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
___________________________________________________
Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it
__________________________________________________
Stan, maybe it's not quite that simple, never has been.
What is amazing, the brilliance and foresight of the folks who drafted it, and got it approved and signed.
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html[
Woodrat this is a reply to your post, my answers follow your quotes..Don
<
Thanks Don, my responses are under the "<".
Well," Supposedly" despite the inevitable corruption that comes with Government....the greatest nation in history....the United States, is great because of the kind of people that founded, died and suffered to develope it....and they are still the finest , bravest and kindest people on the face of the earth!
<
That is something I just don't buy-that Americans are some special breed of homo sapiens, kinder, braver and just all around better than any other kind of humans on earth. And what makes us so special? the fact that our souls happened to be born into bodies located in what is called the USofA? Or at least into bodies that would get lucky enough to legally immigrate here, because I doubt that you're talking about illegal aliens here. There are kind and brave and very fine and upstanding people in every country on the globe, and there are mean, stingy, cruel and greedy humans spread across America as well. I always wince when I see the "proud to be an American" bumper stickers. Don't people remember that PRIDE is one of the seven Deadly sins? Wasn't there some literary reference about pride coming before a great fall? In religious and philosophical traditions the world over, Humility is generally considered a virtue and a strength, Pride a weakness and a sin.
"And here we are talking of rolling back those limitations, because our president has declared endless war on any who would oppose our ambitions. "
If we do not oppose those who are against our ambitions...then we will cease to exist as a nation....if you do not stand up for something then you stand for nothing.....
<
That doesn't justify any particular course of action. I don't believe that we were in imminent danger of disappearing as a nation if we did not go to immediate war against Iraq. And the Endless War Against All Who Would Resist is not the only realistic way to oppose those who are against us.
Relating back to my comment above, I don't think that we as Americans are so much wiser and better than all the other humans that a handful of our wealthiest individuals and corporations have the right to run the world, that our will and our lifestyle are so undeniably and purely superior to all others that we have a right to impose our way of life or our will wherever we please, by military invasion if necessary, and that any who would fight back are "evil" "bad guys" and "terrorists". And you know what? I don't think that thinking that way makes me an America-hater, a traitor, or unpatriotic.
Osama used to be one of our pals as well, back when the Russians were getting mired down in Afghanistan.
It is overly simplistic to say he was our pal...in fact it has been a fairly effective policy to go to trouble spots and train the people of the region to fight arm and defend themselves against tyrany....HOW DOES THAT MAKE US WRONG >>> do you infer all our nations intent and policy is in some way evil?
<
No I didn't say that, although I think that siding with , or supporting evil because it is financially or otherwise convenient is itself, evil. And speaking of fighting and resisting tyranny, maybe the citizens of
Iraq who are still fighting against our troops over there see themselves as justifyably resisting the invasion and destruction of their country. Not that there aren't now plenty of freelance jihadis who have joined the fray from all over the place, but there are undoubtedly some oridinary citizens and regular soldiers involved with violent resistance to our presence over there. And if someone were to invade and occupy America, then you can bet that ordinary Americans would resist with violence for as long as necessary or possible. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and vice versa. And sometimes those distinctions can change overnight, turning your freedom fighter into a terrorist just like that.
'One little bit of the Patriot Act: the government gets the right to look at anyone's library records, with no cause or warrant,
'
I am not so nieve to believe the N.S.A doesnt do ANYTHING it wants as well as the C.I.A.....do you believe that this is the Slippery slop that leads to our ultimate demise...to become a totalitarian state?
>
So, if the NSA and CIA already do anything they want, and they still didn't manage to prevent (or even imagine, if you listen to some of the excuses) 9/11, then what makes anyone think that giving them MORE power and money will fix the problem? I believe we have been on the slippery slope towards some kind of totalitarian state for many years now, although in the last few, I think we have slipped pretty far, pretty fast.
"I don't trust the current administration at all, and in fact, a couple of days after 9/11, there were adminstration people on the TV telling us that they would NOT be telling us the truth about future developments in the new "war", because we just didn't need to know the truth and weren't really able to understand the truth even if they were to tell us. That is something that free people need?"
I am disgusted that govenment will violate any part of our constitutional liberties.....do you think this is something NEW...At no time in our history has this NOT happened
>
That doesn't mean people shouldn't voice their opposition to it when it rears its ugly head. It doesn't mean that a lie is not a lie, and it doesn't mean that it is not wrong. And no, I don't think that this is something new.
Have you ever looked at the INCREDIBLE rstrictions and intrusive steps the Federal government took during WW2?
Harsh and strick control of daily life.....in order to protect in the BIG PICTURE the very freedoms that were temporarily taken.....I would NOT have enjoyed it but wouldnt enjoy speaking japanese german either....
>
Yes I have studied that period of history. Our government made some shameful decisions then. I live in Washington state, where many japanese americans had everything they owned stolen from them and they were put into detainment centers for the duration of the war. To be fighting under the banner of freedom and democarcy while a certain class of our own citizens are stripped of property and rights and put into camps... A real shining moment for American kindness, compassion and wisdom.
No one cqalled you that ....in our system and style of Government the only people I call spineless are Middle of the roaders who offer defamatory, critical and subversive opinions without even the slightest wisp of a word of A BETTER WAY or a means of GETTING THERE
>
The very idea that an opinion voiced in a supposedly free country could be considered "subversive" shows how far down that slope we've already slipped. Last I checked, I was still free to have "subversive" ideas, as long as I don't break the law while acting on them.
." Its just that what we did with Iraq was not a defensive war, it was a preemptive invasion of a country who used to be our ally and had not attacked or threatened us. wasn't that one of the things that got Germany in trouble at nuremberg? preemptive invasion? Its not a policy that I can support, sorry. And I don't think that as wealthy and powerful as we are, we can afford to invade, conquer and change the regime of any country whose leaders harbor ill will against our leaders. "
I suppose with the logic you are espousing that if you new a guy had the means and motive as well as oppertunity to do something horrific (say kidnap and rape) that you would not only refuse to do pre emptive action you would criticise those who stopped the aggressor?
>
Means and motive do not necessarily equal intent or action. And so far I haven't heard of any verifiable evidence that saddam actually possessed the "means", as in WMD. And if you allow that kind of logic to dictate foreign policies around the world, then the whole world would have to immediately set about annihilating each other, because every nation everywhere has at least one enemy with the means and the motive to do horrific things to one another, and if it is suddenly acceptable to attack anyone that you feel threatened by, well I think we can just kiss it all goodbye. Except that I'm guessing that you would not extend that right of preemptive attack to any other nations besides our own, since we are the only ones fit to make those kind of judgement calls...?
What is wrong with going to war to protect our way of life? For oil, water or food?
plenty of precedent in world and biblical history
>
Exactly. So why doesn't our president just cut to the chase? We are at war to protect our priveleged lifestyle and standard of living, and since we are Americans, we're better than everyone else and have a right to take what we want from whoever won't give it to us when we demand it.
Personally, since I think that oil will eventually run out anyway, and since we could have been working to wean ourselves from what we've known to be a finite resource for about 30 years, that it is a shameful and sad waste of human lives and potential to march to War without End over the last few puddles of the stuff. And that is coming from someone who drives over 35,000 miles/year and is totally dependent on cheap fossil fuels to keep my household economy going.
Cheers,
Mark
:o Humm, Ug, white man put 1 trailor behind truck, do 70 mph.. Indian put 450 trailors behind choo choo. do 60 mph. white man not real smart. he no learn. but wait he will see. Duh---Duane ;)
I wanted to know what the patriot act was ... sure found out ....but to tell you the truth i'd rather be debating wether it was black with white stripes or white whith black stripes...
Then again a good debate is always informative .... ;)
isawlogs, dare I be a smart a$$ but this law gives or enforcement offices the right to intervine in the lives of people if they have probable cause. this law can be seen by going to search bar and putting in "patriot act" this will help you understand it some, I hope this helps, Duh---Duane . :D kinda like the Zebra thing ;D
Actually, the police and other agencies have always had the right to intervene in the lives of citizens if they had probable cause. There are many parts of this law that give them the right to fish around in people's lives WITHOUT probable cause. To be fair, the law also organizes the flow of information between agencies better, so that they can and will communicate with each other about what they are up to. I have no compalint with that, although I think the problem of non-cooperation between agencies has alot more to do with "turf wars" and mutual mistrust than it did with the way the law was written.
Woodrat
So in viewing your response I can conclude you do not like America any better than any other nation?...
Is that what you are saying?....
If so,I defend your right to say that (IF you are) to the death....and many truly superior people have already sacrificed in order to afford you that rare priveledge...which is NOT a universally available right.
The reason Americans are most honorable and our Nation is a shinning experiment....is that though we suffer the same inherent maladies of human nature ....we have endevoured on a course of unparalled adventure for over 200 years...one in which INDIVIDUALS have rights that are ABOVE those of the State rights that are for ALL people given by GOD to live as free men.
QuoteActually, the police and other agencies have always had the right to intervene in the lives of citizens if they had probable cause.
True enough but now they can pull any of your records and kick your door in without a warrant or even real probable cause. They don't need probable cause to do none of it, they can now go fishing for a reason if they like and if they don't find one, oops sorry if your lucky!
Andy
Most of the law enforcement around here won't kick anybody's door in as they are likely to be met with a rifle bullet in the chest. That kind of welcome makes them pretty civil.
Hear also! ;)
Ck, like the congress you've left out the parts that begin with Congress shall make no laws.....
So, that gets ya back to square one. You either have to interpet the constitution as a whole, that's why I posted the link, the whold thing wouldn't fit, or just pick out the parts you want to use to make your points, just exactly as congress, who we elected, does. . As I said, not so simple language, but brillant ideas and concepts.
I'm a little reluctant to throw in my thoughts on this one, its startin' to run a little hot :o. But its still a free country, right?
I was a cop for seven years prior to going into the sawmill biz. The interesting aspect of the 9/11 saga is that the FBI had all the tools it needed to get these guys, yet didn't do it. You can not believe how incredibly political this organization is. As street cops, we distrusted them.
What the Patriot Act does is continue the long erosion of our liberties under the guise of security. To the fellas out there who've said they have not lost any of their freedoms since 9/11, I wonder if they've gone to an airport.
Study the history of Germany from 1933-1939. There are some interesting parallels that should give a person cause for concern. We have joined in a course of action from which there is no return. Does anyone really believe that there is a difference in the two political parties? We are voting for people who no longer do the will of the people, but that of the multi-national corporate executives. Folks, the correct political science definition for this is a fascist oligarchy. The worst thing about posting this is knowing that the FBI will now put this in my file. Who knows when they will bring it up? But if you're a Patriot, you've gotta love the Act :'(.
RevCant
Woodrat
So in viewing your response I can conclude you do not like America any better than any other nation?...
Is that what you are saying?....
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What I'm saying is that I don't believe that we are inherently superior people compared to people from other countries. I don't believe that our way of life is so superior that we have the right to impose it on other people, who may not want it. I don't believe that America's intentions are always innocent and for the good of all. I think that the American experiment has many things going for it, but I think that we have been moving further and further away from the orignal concept with each passing year, and I think that the Patriot Act is a perfect and somewhat extreme example of that.
If so,I defend your right to say that (IF you are) to the death....and many truly superior people have already sacrificed in order to afford you that rare priveledge...which is NOT a universally available right.
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It may not be universally available, but we are not the only country in the world that tolerates a little "subversive" speech like mine. And the most likely threat to freedom of speech and the other rights laid out in the bill of rights, is our own government, rather than anyone else's government.
The reason Americans are most honorable and our Nation is a shinning experiment....is that though we suffer the same inherent maladies of human nature ....we have endevoured on a course of unparalled adventure for over 200 years...one in which INDIVIDUALS have rights that are ABOVE those of the State rights that are for ALL people given by GOD to live as free men.
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So why should we be willing to turn that concept on its head in the name of "safety"? And truth be told, not ALL people have had the same set of rights in this country for over 200 years. Some kinds of people didn't get THEIR rights 'til much later. And speaking of 200 years, it makes us a relatively young country, by european and asian standards anyway. And I think a huge part of our success so far as a country has been that we managed to grab a pretty sweet chunk of real estate, rich in natural resources, spacious and relatively quickly cleared of its previous inhabitants. It remains to be seen how we will look as a country after we've been around for five hundred years or more, like many other older countries. Will we still be able to hang on to the concept of natural human rights and dignity? How crowded will it get, and how well will our bill of rights survive that crowding? How well will we have managed our wealth of natural resources? Plenty of clean water and forests and fields?
I sure hope so, but the spectre of unending war makes it seem unlikely that many of the things we cherish about America will still be around in fifty years, let alone 300.
Just my opinion,
Mark
Revcant
I can also see these erosions and have studied to the point of paranoia the negative effects of the liberalization of our wonderful nation ....and it is all true
Trilateralists,
, skull and bones, industrial complex elitist, government collusion, one world order, ....and yet I love AMERICA to a degree I cannot express properly.
I have made a conscious effort to turn my efforts and thoughts from the negative FACTS
I.E....
away from the decline in moral black and white, to moral relativism....from promiscuity in pop culture and a school system that propagates ultra liberal NEA agendas....revisionists who try to re write a politically correct US history ....or the GROWING cynicism shared by a voting public in the efforts of the elected.
And I CHOOSE to Express hope and Optimism that this Nation will do what it always has that proves it's different than any before it or since.......
Grow and change as a result of a praying God fearing base of good whole some people who care about other nations, have a grounded sense of compassion, and the GUTS to FIGHT when its crunch time and not wine or cower , rather fight to the death for RIGHT ......for HOME and the AMERICAN way of life!
I always hate to make the last post on any thread as it looks like no one is interested in what I have to say.
But I wouldn't mind being the last on this one.
;)
Haytrader I think I know what you mean soo I will post after you then I can be last ...which is only fair since I been expressing my opinions rather freely...I recently kinda posted a similiar comment to yours on another political thread.... :)
Fairs fair
;)