How should I handle this?

[Bruno of NH]

My neighbor stopped last week he's been building a house for 3 years.
Wanted an order for a screen room.
Needed asap
I don't like the guy he's a know it all, cheap and mouthy.
Knowing better I took the job.
Got him his 4x6 beams.
Told him I had the 2x8x12 ready. 
Said next week.
Shows up today and asked if I had them cut ( he know they are cut , I told him when we delivered the beams. 
The topper he wants the 2x8 now 2x7.5
I'm *pithed they are all banded up + wants them asap.
I know he wants it free.
What should I do?
I don't need neighbor issues 
With the way the business has grown.
But he is cheap did I say that already

[YellowHammer]

How many are there to trim?

Can you sell the others?

Depending on this,

I'd probably start with a strategy of "This is what you asked for, this is what I cut, I got it done ahead of schedule because I had to bump back my other customers, because you are my neighbor, but if you want them redone, I'll have to put you at the back of the line.  It may take weeks or months to get you on the next cycle.  Do you want these or not?"

If not, then I'd wait a few weeks or months trying to sell them, and when I did, I'd cut him some new ones.

Or ask him to pay the difference for you to put them through the edger.

I wouldn't lose money on the deal.

[Dana Stanley]

I would cut them and hand him the bill. If he questions it just tell him, you said 2x8, then changed it after they were cut. If he don't pay take it on the chin, but next time he asks, let him know he didn't pay for the last job! What ever he is trying to match he could pad it out, or trim the 2x8s himself in the same time it will take you to rework it!

[Southside]

All my custom orders come with a PO that details exactly what the customer ordered, doesn't help you with this one but in the future it would eliminate this from happening again. 

[Bruno of NH]

This guy is always running a scam.
He knows I was a builder for 35 years.
I told him your carpenter can't make the birds mouth deeper.
He said no would mess up the whole job.
I say BS 
Being a good carpenter you can make thing happen

[doc henderson]

how long will it take.  if they can go on the mill and be trimmed quick.  has he paid for the order yet?  I guess you can add the time on the bill.  make a work order and let him sign off on it.  Is it his personal home?   some builder think they will get a pro discount.  he does not sound much of a pro.  a good neighbor and professional would be trying to make sure you get paid, as you are not a hobby guy.  what ever happens, never forget. 

[SawyerTed]

I had a similar situation last summer.  Guy orders 80 1x6x16 SYP on Thursday. I told him they would be ready Monday.  I let him know Monday at 10 am they were done.

He tells me he wants 1x4 in white oak.  I told him he had one of two choices.  Take the 1x6s for the agreed to price or find some other person to cut oak 1x4x16.

I sold the 1x6s to another customer by the end of the week.  

I don't saw for the guy anymore.

So tell the guy you cut what he ordered on a rush basis as a favor to a neighbor.  He can take it at the agreed price or it will be a month or so before you can get to him because you put him in front of other orders.  His carpenter can rip them down to whatever he wants.

Sell the stuff to somebody else.  Don't do business with him without a written order.

[esteadle]

Find out who his carpenter is, and ask the carpenter if he needs 2x7.5 for real. 
If not, deliver them as is. 

[SawyerTed]

I have to disagree with talking to the other guy's carpenter.  That is getting to somebody else's business.  Suggesting to the customer to cut the birds mouth deeper is about as far as that should go.  The lumber order is all Bruno of NH can control.

[goose63]

Up to him take it or get out

[sprucebunny]

So they don't have a circular saw on the job to fix HIS mistake ???

[Gere Flewelling]

Bruno, I have a little different perspective on you predicament.  I think that in this instance you should consider just putting the 2x8x12 back on the mill and trim it down.  He is your neighbor, he apparently has a big mouth, and he is cheap.  That combination can have a detrimental on your well run business that you have worked so hard to establish.  Not that there are many that can supply the quality that you provide your customers in NH, but there is an awful lot of bandsaw mills in NH. ( I never realized that until I purchased one.)  This sacrifice on your part this one time might prevent a gossiping neighbor from possibly giving another sawyer a foot in the door in your area.  I am sure you will be wiser next time, but this way there is a better chance to be a "next time".  I had an old shop teacher in high school that drilled it into us that "It takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, but only an instant to ruin it".  He was talking about stealing and lying back then, but I think something similar can be applied to this subject.  Having a disgruntled customer may not be a concern in other parts of the country, but I think it might be worth considering in this area with all those band mills itching to find there nitch here in NH.  This is just a thought from one of your NH neighbors that wish you the best.  Good Luck!

[WV Sawmiller]

   I think I would remind him he ordered 2X8 and that is what I cut. I'd tell him I could resaw them but it would cost him ___ much more and ask him if the extra work is worth the change in cost to him. I he agrees, resaw them, if not let him make the changes. If he cancels the order I'd suck it up and sell them elsewhere. I would not go through life worrying about what he may say to others. If they know he is a cheapskate they will ignore him. if they are like him you don't want their business anyway so you can assume you are just weeding out future problem customers.

[doc henderson]

this is meant to be for fun, but between your employees and neighbors, you need to find more grown ups to play with.  

[doc henderson]

he will respect you more if you  charge him.  if he refuses to pay, then no more work for him, or add that charge to the next job.  

[Magicman]

I am questioning why 2X7.5.  That is an odd dimension because a "factory" 2X8 is 7.25.  ??

Somebody had better be sure of exactly what they want because something is mighty strange.

[Bruno of NH]

I agree Mr Lynn
Makes little sense to me.

[moodnacreek]

That nonsense when on around here for years. I used to cut beams and trailer decks to order, part time.  I have alot of rough lumber on hand. I never planed it that way. What started it was being stuck with orders never picked up.    These days I don't need the $ like a few years back and other than the customers that I really like, I don't care. Yes I have quite the attitude and people know it and I am treated so much better than when I was struggling . I feel bad for those trying to make a living with there sawmills and I can offer much advise but I never figured out how to deal with most people. If it was my neighbor, that would be tough. I think I would tell him I was too busy.

[mike_belben]

Easiest way to shed yourself of a turd is loan them a little bit of money that he wont pay back so you can be done with him forever.  This unpaid lumber order might be your golden ticket.  


Resaw them and staple an invoice on the packet with an itemized charge for the lumber then a full rate by the hour unband, resaw, reband charge.  


Either he pays it and resents you, never coming back.. Or he gripes.. And you waive the fee on the spot with a disclaimer.. Dont ask me to saw anymore lumber for you.. I have too many customers eager to pay my rate and wait patiently for it.  They pay my mortgage.  doing you rush favors to make your house nicer is gonna cost me mine.  



If it has to get ugly.. Youve got the high ground.  He never paid his bill. You never said it was free.

[Brad_bb]

One thing I don't think Bruno was clear about, was whether there was a written order that specified the dimensions?  If you can't back it up- like if it was only word of mouth, then it's hard to hold someone to it.  Documentation is important for situations like this.  It leaves no wiggle room.  Sounds like the neighbor has wiggle room.  

Bruno also was clear he didn't want neighbor issues.  So this tells me it's better to buck up and get it done and move on.  Kill the guy with kindness.  Bruno said he knew better, so this is yet again a learning lesson.  Never cut for the guy again.  

We'd all like to stand our ground with a guy like this, but it looks like the other considerations win out.  I wonder how many 2x8's (or 2x7.5's) we are talking about.  If it's 10 and you can gang edge them on the mill, not so bad -30-45minutes?.  If it's 20 or more, Now it's time and work.  If it's the latter, and you had written proof, then you'd have to stand your ground and tell them take as is or pay to re-cut.

Lesson 1- written contract with the details
Lesson 2- Don't agree to work with someone you know is trouble and you'll regret.
Lesson 3- It costs you to learn lessons 1&2  :D :D :D

[Bruno of NH]

The order was for (35) 2x8x12
I have his hand written cut list he gave me.
If he called I would have said no.
He stopped in and made like he was doing me a favor because my prices are 8% higher than a big mill 50 minutes away.
Piles of lumber every place waiting to be picked up and he says is this all you do for work now.
Like its easy or something, then brings up what does the town think of all this. 
I'm going to recut them but I won't do business with him again.

[Southside]

One thing I have learned is that when dealing with folks who really have no idea what we do is that you need to pull teeth.  They will talk like they know what they are saying "I need 2x8's" or "I need 4/4 oak", which in reality they may want nominal sized, not full dimension 2x lumber, and they want 1" oak, not 1 1/8", or they order "200 BF of 1x2 cedar" only to about drop dead of a heart attack when they hear the quote as they figured that means 200 linear feet of 1x2.  

Not defending this guy in any way - just saying that as sawyers we speak a different language than many customers and it falls upon us as business owners to make sure that we produce what it is the customer is expecting.  

I even had a customer tell me one time that we don't have any yellow pine in this area :- it all has to come from Florida, and he accused me of "faking" my product.  After a few minutes I figured out that what he wanted was long leaf pine, but he was too dumb and set in his ways to realize that he had no idea what he was talking about.  

[YellowHammer]

then brings up what does the town think of all this.

So he's threatening you?

I'm going to recut them.

Why wouldn't you run them on the edger?  I saw your other post where you got it running.

The order was for (35) 2x8x12

Was he expecting nominal dimension?  So did he really want them 1.5" thick instead of 2"?

[Cedarman]

I agree with Southside.  I want to know if the lumber needs to be planed, if so which faces, or left with band sawn texture. If planed, what exact thickness, width and lengths.
If 2x, then store bought size , 1 1/2" or full size 2".  How many of each. I will ask what will the lumber be used for. Porch posts means a different appearance quality than fence posts.  I ask that orders be emailed if possible.  This protects me and them.  Keeps us from having issues.
I can't remember a customer asking me to resaw lumber for free.  They always preface their request with "what would you charge me to etc. etc" .  I do my best to be very reasonable. 
If asked to resaw a bundle for free, I would say, be glad to when I finished sawing these 30 paying orders.  Then I will have time to work for free.  If I do it for free, word will get around that I can be badgered into sawing for free. 
My guess is most people know your reputation and know your neighbors. 

[mike_belben]

It does sound like a veiled reminder to hook him up or have the code man sicced on you.  


 answer those sort of questions with "they love the extra tax revenue!" and go on like its nothing.  

[WV Sawmiller]

    Yeah or tell him your cousin on the board says everything is fine. Or you might have asked him how they felt about him using ungraded lumber on his project.

    I can tell you that you are being nicer than I would be. Once he started to threaten me all bets would be off.

[Bruno of NH]

2 of the board members are customers of mine.

[Bruno of NH]

I called him today and asked who was going to eat this re cut of his lumber ?
Told him I get $100 an hour to run the edger with my helper.
We need to cut the banding , split the load , edger cut to 7.5 , sticker again and band up.
He said what!!!
I told him he could have his carpenter cut it down on the table saw , that could be cheaper.
Says oh no do it please it was my mistake.
I'm tired of doing stuff for free unless I chose who the recipient is.
This guys not one.
Tonight I gave (10) 1x8x8 to my friends son who worked some for me while on break from welding school.
He just got his first home and was doing some repairs.
He asked how much I said $0.00 my choice. That's the stuff I like to do.
Sorry for the rant

[SawyerTed]

Gotta stand up for yourself then, if you choose, let the customer get the win.

I think you've waited it out and made your case without bending over backward.  You won't have a rouge out there badmouthing and you will be in the driver's seat.

[barbender]

Bruno I'll do stuff like that too- I'm charitable at my discretion, not theirs.

[teakwood]

I can tell you that you are being nicer than I would be. Once he started to threaten me all bets would be off.

X2 on that, Bruno you are way too nice. if people now you are a pushover they will take advantage over you

[WV Sawmiller]

Easiest way to shed yourself of a turd is loan them a little bit of money that he wont pay back so you can be done with him forever.  This unpaid lumber order might be your golden ticket.  

Mike,
    I missed this earlier but I agree. I have a trashy 1st Cousin who used to live across the road from a buddy of mine and would come over and want to use his phone and such all the time. Finally my cousin asked him to borrow $20 and he loaned it to him and he never saw him again. My buddy said that was the best money he ever spent. 

[mike_belben]

What sucks is when they pay you back and think its establishing good credit for future requests.  Then you just have to man up and run them off. 


Sun tsu said 'Know your enemy and know yourself and you will not be imperiled in 100 battles.'Bruno is the only one who knows his own strengths and weaknesses in this unique situation, so he has to craft his own battle plan to win this one. 


 I wouldnt give away too much on the internet.  My friend had stuff he posted on a 4wd forum read at his sentencing.  Served 2 years out of 7-15 so far for a non crime so it isnt a joke.  Be careful what you say and where you say it. 

[barbender]

Haha here's a story, you'll have to appreciate it from the vantage point of my Native American family. My Dad, very obviously Native, gets hit up for money wherever he goes (there's 2 Reservations close, we live on one and another close by) There will be Natives hitchhiking around fairly often, I will usually stop and give people rides. My experiences range from receiving a lot of gratitude and hand made infant moccasins for our newborn, to having a knife pulled on me or getting locked out of my truck after helping someone get gas and getting their rig going. Maybe I like the adventure? 😁 Anyhow, one night I stopped by to visit my Dad, he says, "yeah, I had someone show me a new Indian trick tonight". "Oh, what was that?" "Well, I was driving home from work and saw an Indian guy hitchhiking (my Dad would never call himself Native American, he's just Indian) so I thought, what the heck so I picked him up. He needed a ride to Ball Club (local village, out of his way) but again, what the heck. So he's really appreciative, and set $5 bill on the console for gas (this is out of the ordinary) So I brought him to Ball Club, he wanted dropped off at the store. So I pull in, and the guy turns to me and says, 'hey could I borrow a few bucks for cigarettes?' I just pointed to his $5 bill on the console, he took it and left"😂😂 He figured it was kind of a "trolling" operation, put in a $5 and maybe get a $10 or even a $20 back?😂

[mike_belben]

I was 17 or so washing dishes at a retirement home in south hadley mass.  I had signed up for the marines already and was headed home on a saturday probably when i pass a guy in full usmc cammies [not allow in public] headed west on 202 while im headed east to go home.  Curiousity got me so i bust a U turn and pick him up.  


He stinks like all get out.. Story was his home of record is alaska and just finished a deployment in like africa or an island duty or something idk.. But his large paycheck for a long stretch of duty just got sent accidentally to his home of record and he cant get ahold of family.. Hes got 30 days of leave and had gotten off a plane at logan in boston the night before.. Some sort of location snafu that isnt hard to believe with uncle same.. He had the airport tag.  Covered about 90 miles or so in one night so he wasnt playing. Was gonna thumb up through canada in like november without cold weather gear. I was scared FOR him.  He had no cash or food or jacket and didnt want any.  I drove him to holyoke and he just pointed to a restaraunt and said drop me off there ill do some dishes or something for a sandwich.   Wasnt phased at all, i got 30 days and nothing else to do, im not gonna sit here and cry, ill hike across the country this month.. No big deal.

I was like yeah i wanna be that capable and self reliant.  Hope he made it.  Semper Fi Marine.

[Brad_bb]

I'm glad Bruno stood up and handled it right. Takes away some of the frustration we were feeling for you. I've been in that same position and it is darn frustrating.  A lesson for us all.

[WV Sawmiller]

Mike,

   Thanks for being a nice guy but you know the guy was lying. He might have been UA or a deserter. Too easy to see his CO or First Sgt and they'd have got him on a Space A flight or Navy Relief or USO would have gotten him a ticket. They'd have routed him to any military disbursing office and gotten him an emergency advance pay if needed. I'm not saying the military doesn't get things fouled up (They thought my cousin Priscilla was a Purcival and sent her to Quantico instead of Cherry point. Quantico had no facilities for WMs at the time. But they fixed it all in short order.) and they will fix it. The fastest way for any young officer or Senior Staff NCO to limit their career is leave a young trooper/Marine/Sailor in a lurch.

[Bruno of NH]

I edged the 2x8x12 today and delivered them by skid loader.
Placed one foot next to the cut station.
Charged him $80 extra , should have been a $100.
He didn't say a word.

[woodyone.john]

Bruno,sounds like after your recent tribulations your moving on up.

[Andries]

. . .  He didn't say a word.

That says it all Bruno, well done.
• He now knows that he can't threaten you with zoning or business code crap.
• He now knows that he can't pull cheap shots to cover his mistakes.
• He now knows that you'll deliver the goods and he pays the quoted price. 
• He now knows not to expect a free ride from you . . with a guy like him, that's a close you can expect to getting some respect. 👍

[YellowHammer]

Yep, good job.  You handled it well.  

[cutterboy]

Bruno, you were put into a difficult situation and you handled it well. Good for you.

[SawyerTed]

That's a win-win.  

[teakwood]

Did he already pay?

[Bruno of NH]

Yes he paid on delivery