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Tree felling techniques and safety

Started by doc henderson, May 31, 2021, 01:25:11 PM

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Skeans1

Quote from: LeeB on June 02, 2021, 12:43:07 PM
I'm all for bore cutting and use it when I can, but what about trees too small for a bore cut that are leaners? The smaller ones are also hard to get a wedge in. Many of the trees I cut when clearing near the house and other structures are 8" or smaller.
Start your back cut first set wedge in tight then face it up like we do when jacking. This is a fast simple method that works very well on back leaners.

mike_belben

I cut small stuff constantly with just a tophandle and a shove by hand up to about 10 inch.   In 4" stems i will just blow right through in one pass if im carrying the 372.  Its faster than gravity. 
Praise The Lord

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: Skeans1 on June 02, 2021, 03:15:32 PM
Quote from: LeeB on June 02, 2021, 12:43:07 PM
I'm all for bore cutting and use it when I can, but what about trees too small for a bore cut that are leaners? The smaller ones are also hard to get a wedge in. Many of the trees I cut when clearing near the house and other structures are 8" or smaller.
Start your back cut first set wedge in tight then face it up like we do when jacking. This is a fast simple method that works very well on back leaners.
Hey, I like that! I'm gonna try it next chance I get. Thanks. There is still the issue of not having a deep enough back to take the wedge full depth, but one could bore through from the back side in that case. Neat idea, thanks.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

quilbilly

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on June 02, 2021, 04:01:26 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on June 02, 2021, 03:15:32 PM
Quote from: LeeB on June 02, 2021, 12:43:07 PM
I'm all for bore cutting and use it when I can, but what about trees too small for a bore cut that are leaners? The smaller ones are also hard to get a wedge in. Many of the trees I cut when clearing near the house and other structures are 8" or smaller.
Start your back cut first set wedge in tight then face it up like we do when jacking. This is a fast simple method that works very well on back leaners.
Hey, I like that! I'm gonna try it next chance I get. Thanks. There is still the issue of not having a deep enough back to take the wedge full depth, but one could bore through from the back side in that case. Neat idea, thanks.
Depending on size and how hard the lean is you can get pretty deep, when putting the wedge in put it at an angle or even sideways. Pound it up then move to the from and put in your face. You should not have a big face since you already put in a good size back cut. The face is just for direction. 
a man is strongest on his knees

LeeB

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on June 02, 2021, 01:08:23 PMmake your face cut as normal, then lay the bar flat on the bottom of the notch and perpendicular to the notch and bore straight through from front to back right through the center of the notch. Pull the bar out an move up 1/2" and just bore about 1-1/2" deep for a clearance cut.


Not sure I completely understand the second boar cut above the first. I guess you also make a front to back bore cut, then cut the notch, place the wedge and do the back cut from each side as above. I'm cheap and usually make wooden wedges anyway so wouldn't loose much if I nicked my wedge.

'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Tacotodd

OGH, you just have to remember that the plastic wedges were definitely designed to not be stronger than the chain that might hit them, therefore they are "sacrificial" to a point. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather not tear up my stuff either, but stuff happens. 
Trying harder everyday.

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: LeeB on June 02, 2021, 06:02:39 PM
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on June 02, 2021, 01:08:23 PMmake your face cut as normal, then lay the bar flat on the bottom of the notch and perpendicular to the notch and bore straight through from front to back right through the center of the notch. Pull the bar out an move up 1/2" and just bore about 1-1/2" deep for a clearance cut.


Not sure I completely understand the second boar cut above the first. I guess you also make a front to back bore cut, then cut the notch, place the wedge and do the back cut from each side as above. I'm cheap and usually make wooden wedges anyway so wouldn't loose much if I nicked my wedge.
OK, picture this: You make one bore cut through (single width, roughly 1/4" wide, right?) then you place a wedge and do the sidecuts. Now you start driving that wedge in and the tree starts moving over...until the wedge thickness going through that bore cut gets to 1/4" thick. Now you can't drive it any further unless the tree lifts straight up...not good. SO you add the second bore cut a little higher to allow clearance. Did I explain that better?
Yeah Todd I know they are expendable, but my wedges get nipped and clipped all the time and they don't last as long as I would like. I order mine from Madsen's and as much as I like them, I don't need to keep buying them all the time. By the way, hit them on the belt sander once in a while to repoint and clean off the burrs and they work better over time. Even with that and being careful, some of mine are pretty sad.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

firefighter ontheside

Quote from: doc henderson on June 02, 2021, 08:48:29 AM
I assume the pull happens most when the notch closes and pry's up on the hinge and fibers.  or on the back side of a thick hinge.  The CAT has worked well.  the wide tracks do well in the sand areas.  that log is 20 feet long and was a live cottonwood 20 minutes earlier.  the trailer was parked along side the road and on a slight tilt.  that hump let the log take a roll and broke my then oak stay pocket boards.  glad Jerry was not on the downhill side of the trailer.  Now I have the @YellowHammer system.
One of the benefits of the open faced notch used with the boring back cut method is that it takes longer to close up and may not break before the tree touches down.  The idea is that the hinge is able to control the direction of fall all the way to the ground, because the notch is more than 90 deg.  Something like a humboldt notch is more like 45 deg., so the notch closes up and the hinge breaks when the tree is only halfway to the ground.
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

LeeB

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on June 02, 2021, 07:56:29 PMOK, picture this: You make one bore cut through (single width, roughly 1/4" wide, right?) then you place a wedge and do the sidecuts. Now you start driving that wedge in and the tree starts moving over...until the wedge thickness going through that bore cut gets to 1/4" thick. Now you can't drive it any further unless the tree lifts straight up...not good. SO you add the second bore cut a little higher to allow clearance


Gotcha. Allows the back of the wedge to continue angling the tree at the back cut rather than trying to break the hinge. Right?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Skeans1

Quote from: firefighter ontheside on June 02, 2021, 10:26:51 PM
Quote from: doc henderson on June 02, 2021, 08:48:29 AM
I assume the pull happens most when the notch closes and pry's up on the hinge and fibers.  or on the back side of a thick hinge.  The CAT has worked well.  the wide tracks do well in the sand areas.  that log is 20 feet long and was a live cottonwood 20 minutes earlier.  the trailer was parked along side the road and on a slight tilt.  that hump let the log take a roll and broke my then oak stay pocket boards.  glad Jerry was not on the downhill side of the trailer.  Now I have the @YellowHammer system.
One of the benefits of the open faced notch used with the boring back cut method is that it takes longer to close up and may not break before the tree touches down.  The idea is that the hinge is able to control the direction of fall all the way to the ground, because the notch is more than 90 deg.  Something like a humboldt notch is more like 45 deg., so the notch closes up and the hinge breaks when the tree is only halfway to the ground.
Semi true the face controls direction if the tree is straight and weight is equal side to side. A humboldt will control a tree all the way to the ground as well this also is depending on conditions. One thing that I'm noticing is there's this huge push to have a black and white this is the only way to do this when in reality you guys should look at this as when in Roman do as the Romans do.

HemlockKing

Quote from: LeeB on June 02, 2021, 12:43:07 PM
I'm all for bore cutting and use it when I can, but what about trees too small for a bore cut that are leaners? The smaller ones are also hard to get a wedge in. Many of the trees I cut when clearing near the house and other structures are 8" or smaller.
I had this problem yesterday, luckily my stihl 170 has a “rolomatic mini” so it’s much smaller. If the tree is so small though like around 10 inches I just gun it to the hinge before the tree even moves much. On a big tree couldn’t make the hinge quick enough before it barbers. Am self taught and that’s the way I do, no a professional by any means.
A1

John Mc

Quote from: firefighter ontheside on May 31, 2021, 07:50:14 PM
I've been using chainsaws for about 33 years, but I really learned about them when I took S-212 Wildland Fire Chain Saws.  This is a Federal class for using saws on federal land.  It is put together by the NWCG or National Wildfire Coordinating Group.  If you can't take the class, maybe you can get ahold of the book to use as a reference.  The instructors were Forest Service and Conservation Dept guys from Missouri that I fought fire with out west.  When I took the picture of the book I realized it's been 15 years since I took the class.  I need to take it again.

The lead instructor taught us the mnemonic he uses to plan for falling a tree.  The biggest part of doing it safely is planning everything ahead of time.

H - look for hazards such as vines in the tree, dead limbs, hornet nests, health of the tree, etc

H - stands for hinge and includes deciding the intended lay direction, size of tree, width of hinge should be
   about 80% of diameter of tree, thickness of hinge about 10% of diameter

W - stands for weight and includes determining the lean and where is the weight of the tree.  Tree trunk      may not lean, but if all limbs are on one side it will fall that way.

E - escape route.  The escape route should be at a 45 deg angle away from the direction of intended lay.
   This route should be cleared ahead of time to make sure you do not trip.  Do not run.

T - Technique.  How will you fall the tree?  Which notch.  Will you bore it?


That's basically one of he same things the GOL instructors teach, though they dont use the HHWET mnemonic. The guys at Northeast Woodland Training (the GOL training organization here in VT) also point out that there are 5 points in that list to remember, just as there are 5 fingers on your hand. They also get you started on the list by counting them off on their fingers, extending their thumb first, which points up, reminding you to look for the hazards overhead. (Apparently, that's on a lot of newbies forget: they tend to want to dive right in to the cutting plan.)

Quote from: OntarioAl on May 31, 2021, 08:10:46 PMIf i lived closer to some of the posters asking the questions I would go and give them some assistance and hopefully pass on some of my knowledge
That's the approach I like to take. You can tell so much more when you are there in person. I'd much rather help in person, and either show them some pointers or take the opportunity to convince them that maybe this isn;t somethign they want to be tackling without some more help or training.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

HemlockKing

Quote from: John Mc on June 04, 2021, 11:22:14 AM
Quote from: firefighter ontheside on May 31, 2021, 07:50:14 PM
I've been using chainsaws for about 33 years, but I really learned about them when I took S-212 Wildland Fire Chain Saws.  This is a Federal class for using saws on federal land.  It is put together by the NWCG or National Wildfire Coordinating Group.  If you can't take the class, maybe you can get ahold of the book to use as a reference.  The instructors were Forest Service and Conservation Dept guys from Missouri that I fought fire with out west.  When I took the picture of the book I realized it's been 15 years since I took the class.  I need to take it again.

The lead instructor taught us the mnemonic he uses to plan for falling a tree.  The biggest part of doing it safely is planning everything ahead of time.

H - look for hazards such as vines in the tree, dead limbs, hornet nests, health of the tree, etc

H - stands for hinge and includes deciding the intended lay direction, size of tree, width of hinge should be
   about 80% of diameter of tree, thickness of hinge about 10% of diameter

W - stands for weight and includes determining the lean and where is the weight of the tree.  Tree trunk      may not lean, but if all limbs are on one side it will fall that way.

E - escape route.  The escape route should be at a 45 deg angle away from the direction of intended lay.
   This route should be cleared ahead of time to make sure you do not trip.  Do not run.

T - Technique.  How will you fall the tree?  Which notch.  Will you bore it?


That's basically one of he same things the GOL instructors teach, though they dont use the HHWET mnemonic. The guys at Northeast Woodland Training (the GOL training organization here in VT) also point out that there are 5 points in that list to remember, just as there are 5 fingers on your hand. They also get you started on the list by counting them off on their fingers, extending their thumb first, which points up, reminding you to look for the hazards overhead. (Apparently, that's on a lot of newbies forget: they tend to want to dive right in to the cutting plan.)

Quote from: OntarioAl on May 31, 2021, 08:10:46 PMIf i lived closer to some of the posters asking the questions I would go and give them some assistance and hopefully pass on some of my knowledge
That's the approach I like to take. You can tell so much more when you are there in person. I'd much rather help in person, and either show them some pointers or take the opportunity to convince them that maybe this isn;t somethign they want to be tackling without some more help or training.
Hello John, I understand you teach this stuff, I just wanted to say thanks for sharing lots of valuable information here for the posters, I have learned from you. 
A1

John Mc

Quote from: HemlockKing on June 04, 2021, 11:40:26 AMHello John, I understand you teach this stuff, I just wanted to say thanks for sharing lots of valuable information here for the posters, I have learned from you.


Hemlock King - Thanks, but I do not instruct in chainsaw use or felling, other than giving friends some pointers or helping them out to keep them out of trouble when they have some trees they need to take down.

I am an FAA certificated Flight Instructor (not actively instructing these days). Learning to do that and using it over the years has given me some insights on adult education and the different ways in which adults learn.

I don't consider myself an expert at tree felling and chainsaw use. (I suppose I should not be surprised that I've run into a number of people locally who know far less than I do, yet do consider themselves "experts".) I do make it a point to encourage people to seek out expertise - which is why I so often suggest people look in to one of the GOL training organizations (mostly in the Northeast US), or Tim Ard's Forest Applications Training (mostly in the SE, though he does get around a bit), or some other training in their area. I favor formal hands-on training, but I realize that is not the way everyone learns. It is one way to significantly reduce the risks involved as compared to learning through the "school of hard knocks". In chainsaw use and tree felling, the hard knocks can kill you or leave you maimed. I decided early on that I wanted to be around to see my kids grow up, and have full use of all my limbs when doing so.

I do try to keep learning: I've taken all of the chainsaw related classes the GOL folks in my area offer. I've repeated some, since I wanted to see how things changed when they were teaching more landowner-oriented classes vs pro-logger oriented ones. The second time through I was able to focus more on their approach to teaching  (which is interesting to me) rather than just absorbing all of the content. I also make a point of analyzing the situation when something did not go exactly as planned - hopefully, I can learn something that will help the next time.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Ianab

Quote from: Skeans1 on June 02, 2021, 11:54:46 PMOne thing that I'm noticing is there's this huge push to have a black and white this is the only way to do this when in reality you guys should look at this as when in Roman do as the Romans do.


I don't get that feeling. There is multiple ways to cut down a tree, some are relatively safe, others aren't. Some produce better results (direction control, less fibre pull etc). 

So it's not so much about what the rest of the Romans are up to. It's about knowing several (safe) methods or variations of cuts to get the safest and best result for the tree you are standing next to at the time. There are situations where the GOL style bore cutting can certainly save your life, even if the other 99 trees can be cut with a conventional notch and back cut. 

So the hazard ID, assessing the tree condition and lean and the ways that species of tree behave can certainly change the method you would use. Or sometimes, when to walk away ;)

No tree is worth enough to risk getting killed over. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: Gary_C on June 01, 2021, 03:55:13 AM
...,..

First of course is always wear your PPE at all times when cutting.

Second when approaching a tree you wish to cut always first look up to the top of the tree. OSHA claims to have numbers that say over 75 or 85 % of injuries are caused by being hit on the head. That's why it's always important to first look for any loose and broken limbs that might fall when the tree is disturbed.

.....
Just to reinforce this: 2 days ago I was out harvesting mushroom logs in very dense growth, which means almost none of the trees I felled actually hit the ground because they were hemmed in tight in all directions. So I cut this one tree and it went over about 10-15 degrees before it stopped. I did not step back as I should have when it started going because I knew dang well it wouldn't go far (compliancy, that's an 'error trap'). So when it stopped moving, I looked up to see how/where it was hung. Right as I got my head up, it hit me. A dead branch from another tree about 2" in diameter and 5' long caught me square across the forehead area. It hit right where the brim meets the crown of my hard hat and flung that hat far enough that I had to search a little to find it in the dense growth. It rung my bell a little bit, but not a lot. My helper was watching and saw it and tried to yell, but by the time noise came out of his mouth it had whacked me already. It was that quick. I am guessing about a 30 foot straight drop.
 Later that same day it was so hot that I was really dragging and considered swapping out my chainsaw pants for jeans, but I recalled the earlier incident and remembered what I used to teach in the Fire and EMS services: PPE does you NO good if you don't wear it.
 That was a pretty new skull bucket that I replaced my out of date plastic one with recently. No visible damage to the hat so I am glad I'm not out 70 bucks for a new one, but better than if I didn't have it on. I would have been a hurting unit for sure.
 Buy it, wear it, take care of it.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

HemlockKing

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on June 11, 2021, 05:36:24 PM
Quote from: Gary_C on June 01, 2021, 03:55:13 AM
...,..

First of course is always wear your PPE at all times when cutting.

Second when approaching a tree you wish to cut always first look up to the top of the tree. OSHA claims to have numbers that say over 75 or 85 % of injuries are caused by being hit on the head. That's why it's always important to first look for any loose and broken limbs that might fall when the tree is disturbed.

.....
Just to reinforce this: 2 days ago I was out harvesting mushroom logs in very dense growth, which means almost none of the trees I felled actually hit the ground because they were hemmed in tight in all directions. So I cut this one tree and it went over about 10-15 degrees before it stopped. I did not step back as I should have when it started going because I knew dang well it wouldn't go far (compliancy, that's an 'error trap'). So when it stopped moving, I looked up to see how/where it was hung. Right as I got my head up, it hit me. A dead branch from another tree about 2" in diameter and 5' long caught me square across the forehead area. It hit right where the brim meets the crown of my hard hat and flung that hat far enough that I had to search a little to find it in the dense growth. It rung my bell a little bit, but not a lot. My helper was watching and saw it and tried to yell, but by the time noise came out of his mouth it had whacked me already. It was that quick. I am guessing about a 30 foot straight drop.
Later that same day it was so hot that I was really dragging and considered swapping out my chainsaw pants for jeans, but I recalled the earlier incident and remembered what I used to teach in the Fire and EMS services: PPE does you NO good if you don't wear it.
That was a pretty new skull bucket that I replaced my out of date plastic one with recently. No visible damage to the hat so I am glad I'm not out 70 bucks for a new one, but better than if I didn't have it on. I would have been a hurting unit for sure.
Buy it, wear it, take care of it.
I can't cut in temps more than 85, I can beat the heat though by starting at 5 thankfully with warm weather comes longer hours, early mornings + evening Is full day of work. Take 11-5 off maybe hour or 2 in the evening. It's so exhausting it's definitely a hazard, I can't even keep the sweat of out my eyes stings badly too. 
A1

LeeB

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on June 11, 2021, 05:36:24 PMThat was a pretty new skull bucket that I replaced my out of date plastic one with recently. No visible damage to the hat so I am glad I'm not out 70 bucks for a new one


Probably be a smart move to replace the suspension in it. 
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Old Greenhorn



Yes, all that and more. It was in the mid 80's that day. I am old and start losing my wind in those conditions. The sweat in the eyes is another problem and on that afternoon I got some woodchips in my eyes when I (again) looked up and there were chips on the inside of my shield that fell directly into my eye.  That hurt liked the dickens and I didn't clear it until after my shower that night.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Old Greenhorn

Quote from: LeeB on June 11, 2021, 06:38:00 PM
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on June 11, 2021, 05:36:24 PMThat was a pretty new skull bucket that I replaced my out of date plastic one with recently. No visible damage to the hat so I am glad I'm not out 70 bucks for a new one


Probably be a smart move to replace the suspension in it.
Good Point. I don't think it was nearly a hard enough hit, I will check it out for sure and look closer for any damage or questionable spots. I hope its fine because I finally got that suspension to sit the way I want. Hate to start over, but I will if there is any sign. Thanks for pointing that out.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Ianab

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on June 11, 2021, 05:36:24 PMLater that same day it was so hot that I was really dragging and considered swapping out my chainsaw pants for jeans, but I recalled the earlier incident and remembered what I used to teach in the Fire and EMS services: PPE does you NO good if you don't wear it


Short pants and chaps are the go to here in summer. Still get the protection, but a lot cooler. Hot and humid makes heat exhaustion a real safety concern, and messes with your concentration. 
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

mike_belben

And who likes a swamp wedgie anyways?  
Praise The Lord

John Mc

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on June 11, 2021, 05:36:24 PMNo visible damage to the hat so I am glad I'm not out 70 bucks for a new one


I'm pretty sure that if a plastic helmet takes a hard hit, you are supposed to replace the whole thing
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Skeans1

Quote from: John Mc on June 11, 2021, 10:20:37 PM
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on June 11, 2021, 05:36:24 PMNo visible damage to the hat so I am glad I'm not out 70 bucks for a new one


I'm pretty sure that if a plastic helmet takes a hard hit, you are supposed to replace the whole thing
With the aluminum hats as long as the rivets aren't loose you're good to go.

Walnut Beast


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