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Author Topic: please help...hire orester or not?  (Read 8481 times)

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please help...hire orester or not?
« on: June 07, 2021, 12:43:39 PM »
I don't know if this is the right forum but here goes....

Last week I was approached by a logger that wants to cut hardwoods (maple, red oak, white oak, cherry. ash) from approx 65 ac in 4 parcels.  Some of this bush has been logged approx 25 years ago and other other hasn't been cut since 50 years.  He wants to take more or less everything over 18" diameter and say it will be ready again in 15 years if I don't allow the neighbor to tap it again.  Neighbor has had a maple syrup pipeline in one 15 acre parcel for 7 years and the logger says it has cost me $10,000 in lost value because the wood is now stained.

I told him I was thinking about hiring a forester to mark the trees and he said it was a bad idea because they only ruin your bush.  He said they mark way to many small trees and leave too many big ones and their #1 goal is for them to come back in a few years and charge again for marking.

The logger has given me several references.  I have talked to two of them and both are happy.  They say he pays before he starts falling and he does a good job.  Talked to a forester and he said a diameter limit cut is a bad idea because be may wind up clear cutting small sections where all the trees are mature.  I went to look at a job he did and it seems like he opened the bush up nicely to let sunlight in.  Not clear cut by any stretch.  There is alot of brush lying on the floor but this is the owner's responsibility to clean up.

The logger is offering $30,000 CDN dollars for an estimated 35,000 bdft over approx 65 acres.  The logs are destined for over seas.

Interested in any thoughts, opinions or advice you all may have.

Thanks

Offline mike_belben

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2021, 12:54:11 PM »
boy youve got a hot button question there and i dont think any blanket answer will work.  it could go east or west and you probably wont know until after the timber is gone.  


your age, the forests maturity, and your market timing suggest a pretty big harvest is wise right now, the prices are up and you arent getting younger. but the quality of the wood vs the offer price and local market conditions require an experienced eye to determine with certainty if it is a great, fair, or poor offer.  this is part of what a forestor is for. just like loggers,  there are good, bad and indifferent forestors too.

good on you for the diligence, it will pay off.  youve seen his jobsites, called his references and are still seeking more education.  seriously, good for you. not many do all that and it can cost them dearly.  i think you are just the person to read this exceptional publication.  it is 100 pages and will learn you up fast.  click the brick colored link to download the PDF

Your Woodlands Portfolio - Woodland Owner's Forestry Guide | Tennessee Timber Consultants, LLC
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Offline Blue Noser

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2021, 12:55:37 PM »
Listen to the forester.

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2021, 12:56:17 PM »
 Ive got a mixed opinion on this, 80%+ of what I buy is private stumpage similar to what you've described so im not going to say you HAVE TO have a forester BUT ive seen so many people get ripped off and your left holding the bag or having a mess. How much is the forester going to charge ? Be my first question. 

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2021, 01:04:37 PM »
Would you blindly invest your retirement money into an account run by someone you have never done business with? Who tells you the other guy is the one after your money, and you really don't know the financial world inner workings? 

That is what you are facing. Could be the best move you ever made. Without someone representing your interest, it could be a disaster.

Personally if I am in unfamiliar territory then I find it worthwhile to hire a professional guide. 
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Offline PoginyHill

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2021, 01:25:05 PM »
Loggers have their own biases too. They prefer to spend their time cutting and hauling timber they'll make money on. It is hard to go wrong with a reputable forester. It can go wrong without one. In many states foresters are licensed. I don't think loggers are licensed.
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Offline Autocar

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2021, 01:27:11 PM »
Never Never sell on a diameter cut, sell ten tree's a hundred tree's or what you feel should come out . I am not big on foresters ask around and get some other loggers to walk it with you . But again never sell on a diameter cut if you want a woods !

Offline stavebuyer

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2021, 03:36:58 PM »
The trees need to be marked and measured prior to agreeing to any sale. Unless you have that data you have no idea what you are selling. Solicit sealed bids, lump sum up front with a damage deposit by invitation only. If you need to ask; than please hire a professional forester(and check their references as well) to mark and manage your sale.

The market is at record high pricing for many species. It would be an excellent time to sell.




Offline Claybraker

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2021, 04:23:35 PM »

Last week I was approached by a logger that wants to cut 
Loggers always want to cut. It's what they do. Not a bad thing. What do you want to do? What does your management plan say? I get unsolicited offers all the time.

Offline JBlain

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2021, 04:35:39 PM »
I see you are in New York.  If you don't have a plan,  I would recommend putting one together.  It assesses what you have, what condition and what your goals are over time.  Nothing wrong with a heavy harvest.  When I here a blanket 18in and up diameter cut that is a red flag to me.  Forester or a good knowledgeable logger could meet your goals.  My personal preference on high quality sales is to put them out to bid.   

Offline BradMarks

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2021, 05:55:36 PM »
A good logger and a good forester would have respect for the others position, they often times are dependent on EACH other. My take is your "logger to be" doesn't respect the forestry aspect of management, but understands the cutting quite well. I'd find another logger if you truly intend to log.

Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2021, 06:04:39 PM »
 There is a market for tap hole maple.
The logger needs to find the right buyer. 
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Offline bluthum

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2021, 06:10:04 PM »
Do you not have a state forestry department?  Their general opinions are usually free and the more info you have the better.

Online Texas Ranger

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2021, 06:36:21 PM »
I compare raising trees to raising cows.  You have a herd and you want to sell some.  Buyer hears about it and comes in, looks at cattle, and says, I will give you $.50 cents a pound for my choice of head.  You know your cows, but not the market. Do you take them to market and pay a fee, or let the buyer take what he wants at that Price? 

The forester should be the middle man market, he knows the values, he can judge/mark the trees, keeping a good growing manageable stand, he can draw up a contract to protect you and the land.  The contract has to be more than " I agree to sell and you agree to buy".  Are there good loggers?  Yes.  Are there good foresters? Yes. And there are the other kind?  Yes.

Do your research.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2021, 06:40:24 PM »
There is a market for tap hole maple.
The logger needs to find the right buyer.
Indeed !   Agree with the general advice to hire a forester.  If the logger does not know there is a market for tapped  maple that is not good, of course he could be right in that you have tap stains in former veneer logs.  
Dont worry if it looks messy on the ground, nature takes care if that.  Better messy than the leave trees scraped.  Very good idea to cut lots of poorly formed trees during the harvest, work for the logger but good for the future of the stand.  
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Offline Ianab

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2021, 07:28:04 PM »
A logger and a forester have different skill sets. Some overlap, and the best guys in both fields have some understanding of the other's work. But someone can be a "good" logger (safe / tidy / efficient) with little knowledge of actual forestry. Like how trees grow and forests regenerate. Likewise a forester should have some knowledge of the mechanics of actual harvesting, simply so they can mark out the harvest / skid trails / leave trees in a way that makes the harvest practical. 


The disagreements might come when a forester marks some "junk" trees for removal. The forester knows they are suppressed / stunted / overcrowded etc, and are never going to be a decent tree. So they mark them for removal, even though they are only "firewood" value. The logger doesn't actually want them, but has to take them anyway. Likewise they may leave a healthy and marketable tree as seed or shelter, knowing it will help the regeneration, and be even larger and more valuable in the next harvest. Hence why a diameter limit cut isn't usually the best option. 


So the OP's logger is probably both honest and competent, as a logger, based on the reference jobs. But is his harvesting plan what's best for the forest (and the OP)? That's the question that a Forester can answer. 
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Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2021, 08:13:38 PM »
Would you sell your families prized jewels to first guy that came along with cash or would you seek out someone skilled in appraising jewels to determine their value first? Once their value is established you can access weather the offer is a "good deal" or not.


Offline dgdrls

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2021, 08:32:22 PM »
60 Miles north of Rochester So, Northumberland Ontario area I'm guessing?

IMHO I would get a forester in to at least have a conversation
and learn what the markets are doing and what average splits
are paying.    

best
D

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2021, 09:48:15 PM »
Thanks for all the replies.

Update:
I asked the Logger to come and mark the trees he wants.  That should happen the in the next couple of days.  The Forester is supposed to come on Friday so he will be able to see  what the Logger wants.  Hopefully the two agree.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2021, 09:48:57 PM »
60 Miles north of Rochester So, Northumberland Ontario area I'm guessing?

IMHO I would get a forester in to at least have a conversation
and learn what the markets are doing and what average splits
are paying.    

best
D
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