please help...hire forester or not?

[mike_belben]

One issue with continual diameter limit cuts is that it harvests the fastest growers and leaves behind the slowest.  


Say youre on a 15" DLC and there are two white oaks at 13.5 inch that get left behind.  At the next DLC one has hit 16 and the other is at 14.  The fast growing healthy tree is harvested prematurely.  The stand retains the tree that grows very slow and probably will die and rot before it hits 20" dbh.   Three consecutive DLC's and youve got a stand full of stalled trees that shoulda been culled.  Size does not correlate to overall health. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Mike is exactly right cutting by diameter is terrible flawed. Just because a tree is over xxx diameter doesn't mean its mature or that it is done growing. Some of those trees have superior genetics that allowed them to grow bigger and faster than the others. Those are also the trees that I want producing seed for future generations. 

I'd rather see the stand marked down to a certain BA removing the worst trees first to reach your target. After a couple harvests the "worst " trees you are removing will be nice sawlogs.

[PoginyHill]

One issue with continual diameter limit cuts is that it harvests the fastest growers and leaves behind the slowest.  


Say youre on a 15" DLC and there are two white oaks at 13.5 inch that get left behind.  At the next DLC one has hit 16 and the other is at 14.  The fast growing healthy tree is harvested prematurely.  The stand retains the tree that grows very slow and probably will die and rot before it hits 20" dbh.   Three consecutive DLC's and youve got a stand full of stalled trees that shoulda been culled.  Size does not correlate to overall health.

Exactly. Tree diameter does not always correlate to age. A small diameter tree could be the same age as one twice its size. So many other factors are ignored when diameter is the only criterion. Akin to taking the best and leaving the rest. Will likely not result in a robust future for the stand.

[JBlain]

I have 3 tree cookies to demonstrate the issue with managing to a diameter in mixed deciduous eastern forests.  

Our property is in central PA and first cut around 1812.  They left some of the poorer formed trees as it was remote at the time.  

1st tree is 10 in Chestnut oak 

2nd is 14in  black oak

3rd is 24in red oak

I ask which one is the oldest.  Most answer the 24in red oak.  The oldest is the 10 in chestnut oak.  It was 270 years old and passed over likely 5 or 6 times in the last 200+ years.   The black oak was 90 and you can see it doubled in size when I released it at 75 and the red oak was only 50 years old.  

Lots of variables and management goes a long way over the long term.  

[nativewolf]

All good points, diameter limit cut = high grading.  Just always.  The best genetics grow the fastest.  In fact, what you want the logger to do is to actually leave the youngest fastest growing trees with the best genetics or those of smaller diameters but with crown of leaves at the top of the canopy of the forest.  You want to remove all the junk first.  If a sugar bush why not leave the sugar maple along for tapping?  that should pay a good lease rate, no?  You want the leave trees to be roughly spaced apart and with a minimum of 3 open sides for the canopy to grow evenly without causing twist in the trunk.  The tree spacing should account for areas of decline in which case small clearcuts are not bad.  If you are removing merchantable trees the first thing to look for is whether or not there is regeneration.   @JBlain has a good data point, that chestnut oak that was 270 years old would never be cut by a logger but is shading the ground, you need that energy (sunlight) on the ground triggering germination and that 10" chestnut oak is never ever going to yield income so cut it and all the ones that look like that and the increase in light in the understory will trigger vigorous germination which should be managed over time to create a strong stand of young trees.  In other words, remove as much of the mid story canopy as you can.  That is best done during the harvest.  

I would not confuse satisfied farmers that sold assets with good long term management of the forest.  The reason why the eastern forest of the US are in such horrible shape is that generations of landowners have been selling the assets rather than generating income.  Asset sales and income generation are very different things and a good harvest generates income while have little or no impact on the asset value.  

[rank]

Excellent point about genetics.  It's the same way with a herd of cattle but for some reason I didn't relate that concept to trees.

This brings up another question for me......when walking into a forest for the first time, how does a Forester determine which trees of the same species is the faster growing ones?

[mike_belben]

in time you get an eye for it.  the more trees you cut and look at the more you can correlate outward appearance that gives away large growth rings..  thats what fast growth is.  fat rings.  i made a thread on it not too long ago for the only one i can eyeball correctly, white oak.  

moss, blown out tops, dark color, lots of failed and rotted off epicormic branches, poor form or bunched up spindly tops instead of big spread out brocolli tops.. and certain bark textures can give away the losers.  


like nativewolf basically said, a forest is a soil based growth media fueled by sun.  you weed your garden.  weed your woods too.  if you let a stranger come and pick all the fruits you dont have a garden anymore, do you?  its time to till the greens in and replant when there arent any more fruits on the way.  the cycle time is just a lot longer. but a rotten squash doesnt bring what a fresh soft one does at the market.  same for trees. mature, big, ripe, fresh and cosmetically appealing.  thats what all markets want whether fruit or timber.   dented cans half off and rotten fruit goes to the hogs.  well, junk trees go to the stove. 

it is probably not possible to find a logger who will treat your land better than you would, thats just not their job.  and you will have a very hard time finding an economical way to get someone else to harvest the firewood without just giving it to them at best.  i am sorta in this line of work.

[Wudman]

Look at what a diameter limit cut will do to your species distribution.  Install a few plots yourself.  A 1/10th acre circular plot has a radius of 37.24 feet.  Note the species of the "remove" trees above 18 inches diameter and the species of trees that are smaller than that threshold.  Over time, you will progress to the sub-dominant species in your woodlot.  To properly manage, you need a diameter and species distribution for you woodlot.  Remove trees need to come from across this spectrum......not just the cream of the crop.

Wudman

[mike_belben]

found the thread.  "selecting culls."   hopefully it gets some more action because id like to learn how to eyeball red oaks. 

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=115283.0

[rank]

....junk trees go to the stove.

it is probably not possible to find a logger who will treat your land better than you would, thats just not their job.  and you will have a very hard time finding an economical way to get someone else to harvest the firewood without just giving it to them at best.  i am sorta in this line of work.

I've been taking fallen trees out of there for several years and selling them for firewood. One 24" dia log x 10 ft long is about 1/4 cord and worth about $100 CDN split, dried and delivered....approx $80 USD.

Just for a fun comparison, if a 24" x 10' log has 250 bdft and the logger is offering me $.85/bdft, then I get $212 for that log......so about $180 after taxes.  The firewood game is a cash deal so $100 vs $180.  Less work for sure, but still I'm left a little underwhelmed with the price of hardwood logs

[sealark37]

The private forester works for you, for his fee.  The logger works for himself, any way he can.  If you want to cut your trees, hire the forester.  Let him put it out for bids. You will be money and satisfaction ahead.

[barbender]

I'd skip the step of having the logger mark it, I think we all know which ones he's going to paint. He's going to take the highest value wood, if that's your goal as well I guess game on. Get a forester and have them set the sale up for you, and they paint it.

[mike_belben]

If 85cents a foot on the stump doesnt suit you,  try delivering them to the mill for 32cents a foot with a 16 cent share to the landowner.  Might change your perspective.  


Itll only take a few diameter limit cuts to land your woodlot there too.  You can tour tennessee for proof. 

[BargeMonkey]

35k ft over 65 acres is either the very best of the best or ? Has this been cut before ? Banging wood or scattered ? This oak job i just moved to is roughly 200ish thousand on 68acres and thats not hammering it. 

[Gary_C]

Or....He's planning to take 200 thousand ft and paying for 35 thousand. Without a forester he is not going to know.

[rank]

35k ft over 65 acres is either the very best of the best or ? Has this been cut before ? Banging wood or scattered ? This oak job i just moved to is roughly 200ish thousand on 68acres and thats not hammering it.

1. Same thing the Forester said.
2. One 15 acre lot was cut by a logger under the previous landowner in the lat '90's I'd guess.  My father brought a portable sawmill into a 30 acre lot back about 1969 and used some timber to build a barn.  The remaining 20 acres I don't know if it's ever been cut.
3. Not sure what you mean here.

[rank]

Or....He's planning to take 200 thousand ft and paying for 35 thousand. Without a forester he is not going to know.

My thoughts as well.  Why I asked him to mark what he wants.  Then when the Forester arrives he can tell me if the bdft is correct and at the same time he can give his opinion on tree selection.

[rank]

One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

[Clark]

One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

My guess is he sees foresters as competition for the wood. Or maybe a competition creator, which is less desirable for him and very desirable for you.

Anyone making the marking decisions can ruin a forest. Ask the forester for references and some pictures of other wood lots he has marked. If he talks about taking out the worst trees, giving room to the well-formed trees and harvesting some of the larger trees he's probably on the right track. Did the logger mention any of those things?

Clark

[cutterboy]

Rank, you are using your head and asking the right questions. Stay on this path, you're doing ok.

[PoginyHill]

One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

My guess is he sees foresters as competition for the wood. Or maybe a competition creator, which is less desirable for him and very desirable for you.

Anyone making the marking decisions can ruin a forest. Ask the forester for references and some pictures of other wood lots he has marked. If he talks about taking out the worst trees, giving room to the well-formed trees and harvesting some of the larger trees he's probably on the right track. Did the logger mention any of those things?

Clark

Normally the forester hires the logger. So if the job is given to the forester to manage, this logger knows he won't get the job.

[mike_belben]

What he means to say is a forestor will ruin his harvest plan and be a person to answer to that he cant BS his way around like an unknowing landowner.  

[rank]

One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

My guess is he sees foresters as competition for the wood. Or maybe a competition creator, which is less desirable for him and very desirable for you.

Anyone making the marking decisions can ruin a forest. Ask the forester for references and some pictures of other wood lots he has marked. If he talks about taking out the worst trees, giving room to the well-formed trees and harvesting some of the larger trees he's probably on the right track. Did the logger mention any of those things?

Clark

The Logger said thinning out the stand will allow more sunlight in.  He also said he wouldn't completely clear cut areas of larger trees.  He didn't mention anything about taking poor trees away and leaving nice ones though.  I suspect that runs counter to his goals.  However, when I toured a woodlot he cut two years ago, it was obvious he left many nice straight trees standing that were larger than 18".  Why he did that I don't know yet.  Perhaps he didn't want the species. 

[rank]

Rank, you are using your head and asking the right questions. Stay on this path, you're doing ok.

Thank you.  I appreciate the time you all have taken to answer many questions from a dumb Farmer .  To me, a forest and its' crop of trees should be managed with a long term view just like a field of grain of a herd of cattle. At age 54, I don't care if I never see another harvest from these forests.  What matters to me is the health of the crop.  I thought I was doing the right thing by letting nature take it's course and taking only the fallen trees for firewood but now I see there is room for improvement.

[rank]

One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

My guess is he sees foresters as competition for the wood. Or maybe a competition creator, which is less desirable for him and very desirable for you.

Anyone making the marking decisions can ruin a forest. Ask the forester for references and some pictures of other wood lots he has marked. If he talks about taking out the worst trees, giving room to the well-formed trees and harvesting some of the larger trees he's probably on the right track. Did the logger mention any of those things?

Clark

Normally the forester hires the logger. So if the job is given to the forester to manage, this logger knows he won't get the job.

He might get the job yet.  Another farming neigbour hired a Forester and put the job out for tender and this Logger won.  The Forester I spoke to said $30,000 for 35,000 bdft was a very good price.