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The Elusive Virgin Tract

Started by mike_belben, August 02, 2021, 09:22:27 AM

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WDH

To understand the Native American impact on the landscape in the Southeast where they created savanna's with fire, read " Bartram's Travels".  He explored the area in the late 1760's before the native Americans were exiled to reservations in Oklahoma. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Kodiakmac

Most surviving old growth bush in this part of Ontario has been protected by its terrain: it is either marooned by swampland or has grown between huge shoulder-to-shoulder boulders that sit on top of glacial eskers.

The Province and municipalities dangle the bait of much-reduced property taxes for those landowners who wish to declare the "natural heritage features" of their lands; and old-growth bush along with wetlands certainly qualify for these tax exemptions.  

But once you declare your lands as Conservation Lands, you effectively lose control over them and open them up to very critical examination by a host of bureaucrats from various government ministries and quasi-government agencies such as Conservation Authorities.   The end result is invariably a multitude of land-use restrictions that not only encompass the actual heritage feature, but a large, ever-expanding protection zone around it that limits anything that falls under the broad-brush definition of "development".  

Another unintended consequence is that while walking the property boundaries, the bureaucrats get to see what is on adjoining lands - and if they see that any of the natural heritage features (and it's an incredibly long list) exist on the other side of the man-made border, they have no hesitation about slapping land-use restrictions on the neighbour.

The glitter of immediate property tax relief blinds people to the long-term reality of land-use restrictions that affect resale values and can sour relationships with neighbours.

So in these parts, wise folks stay vewy, vewy quiet about their old-growth.   fudd-smiley fudd-smiley fudd-smiley



Robin Hood had it just about right:  as long as a man has family, friends, deer and beer...he needs very little government!
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mike_belben

Praise The Lord

kantuckid

Here in E KY we have the Lilley Cornett ( he was a man) Woods  in Letcher County. It's managed by Eastern Kentucky University as the Appalachian Ecological research Station. It's open to the public under a controlled process through the ranger station on site. My wife & I hiked it in the late 1970's-it's a magical place for a tree freak like me! 
It's called a mesophytic forest. To qualify as an "old growth forest" 150 years untouched is the criteria I've read. Many of the huge trees in there are not as tall of trunks as in my own forest but some have record size overall diameters of the upper growth. Maybe the result of falls opening the canopy?  I've worked several Chestnut oaks on our land that counted out to ~ 135 years or so. There's another virgin tract not too far south of me near the Red River Gorge Geological Area. I forget it's size, seems like it was under a 100 acres and no where near the 554 acres of Lilley Cornett Woods. 
Lots of hickory is found up high as they left them behind.
Hickory:  I came onto two ballpeen hammer heads and was looking on Amazon a few days back for replacement handles. One was listed for $64.30. Most were more than a used ball peen hammers worth at around $12-16 per handle. I will make my own as I've done before (turn them on three centers) but tried to be lazy and it didn't work.  ;D 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

LogPup


WV Sawmiller

  I don't know about the rest of this thread but either I need to resize my screen or the admins need add more space on  the subject line. After all this is a family site and every time I look at this category this one keeps flashing up as: "Re: The elusive virgin ..." :D
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

hacknchop

I think it's called "clickbait".:)
Often wrong never indoubt

kantuckid

I'd call it wandering minds? ;D
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Don P

Thanks David, I don't think I've seen that map before, really cool. 

After reading Lewis and Clark, I've been reading an account of exploring the Great Lakes and upper Mississippi by Jonathan Carver in the late 1760's.
https://ia800203.us.archive.org/25/items/travelsthroughin00carv/travelsthroughin00carv.pdf
 He predated Lewis and Clark's Voyage of Discovery of around 1804, they had read Carver's account. They were all looking for the northwest passage. There are references to Father Hennepin's account of travels with LaSalle from Niagra Falls through the same area in 1688 although Hennepin's accounts apparently venture into incredible tales told him and has some factual problems. Anyway, Carver is tedious but interesting reading, good accounts of who and what he was seeing at that time. 

barbender

I'll have to check that one out, Don. I love history, I've been through "Undaunted Couragec several times and I e got a few others to read it as well. The Lewis and Clark expedition was really so different from the picture that I had in my mind I could almost say I was shocked by it. I had always pictured Captains Lewis and Clark, led by Sacagawea because that is the narrative that is out there. Even on road signs and such. Not that she wasn't an important part of the expedition, especially for translating. But to say she was there "guide" is really doing violence to the historical record, IMO.
Too many irons in the fire

SwampDonkey

:D As to conservation ground, I've seen it used as a payback scheme. Old clearcut mill ground someone had dreams of selling off as camp lots in remote areas of the Renous and Bartholomew. The heyday of remote big game guiding and fishing has been done for decades. It was maybe 3 years ago now, that someone found a way to make a buck of said lands by asking them if they were interested in it, they was, and said land owner cashed in for far more than was paid when he purchased it. Old mill ground goes for about $250/acre and I believe he got $1000/acre in return. :D He had every logger around here looking at it for timber harvest. A couple crossed my path. All you needed was photos and you could see 95% was all clear cut, just riparian edge left with trees falling down in every wind event. Of course the photos in the 'news' was of old trees that were non touch in the riparian zone along the creek. Look at all the old growth, let's save it. There's more money scams out there than you can shake a stick at. And don't think that he didn't have buddies in that conservation group, probably a member. Actually, indirectly linked by the Miramichi Salmon Association. These are salmon streams. ;) :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Don P

@barbender I had to go look up the link to Lewis and Clark, I think this was prepared for their bicentennial, it was a good read;
The Way to the Western Sea Lewis and Clark across the Continent | Journals of the Lewis and Clark Expedition (unl.edu)

mike_belben









neighbor buddy came over hot and bothered about some $3k per acre land out in the woods so we went and hiked all over.  wasnt until the end that we realized (ahem.. that he finally believe me) that the realtor showed him the wrong starting point altogether.  that the piece she was selling was next door and completely cut over bad with a timbco, skidder, KB and L9000 literally parked there for months. it was outrageously steep wet clay.  there was nothing left to access and the only building site was looking at the back of a trash dump nasty single wide and a highway. 


but, the wrong parcel we walked and greedily counted board feet on sure was purdy! these are pics from his phone.. there were hundreds of trees this size we passed in an hour.  i measured a 120" circumference buttcut.  it was a north facing slope entirely, very heavy to poplar and beach.  saw my first borer infested ash.. boy that stuff is ugly!   this is the first job i can sincerely say the only right piece of iron for it is a yarder. you could just about load a truck right next to one.  we saw no stumps on the 35 acre parcel.. and no brush, no greenbriar.  completely mature mature mature canopy starting to decline.  walk 50 feet over and it was a dying crap thicket because only prime trees had been removed.  thats how fast a diameter limit can ruin a place.  1 flipping cut. theyre side by side.
Praise The Lord

Southside

Had a realtor do the same thing to me once, showed me a farm, the wrong farm.  Found out when I went back to look at things a second time and there was a guy there cutting hay.  Sure was an odd conversation for a minute there.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
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SwampDonkey

Never go to a realtor for anything timber. That is your first mistake. :D They only see what is near the road, if they are even on the right lot. Up here their chances of being at the right lot improve because on their phones they can load up the map and aerial image in real time as long as they have 'service'. And assuming they know how to find the PID number off the property owner's tax bill. :D




"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Don P

That's sure better than Mike's realtor ... but I only trust our online county map so far.

mike_belben

the states online mapper has every boundary shifted about 12 feet east in my neighborhood.  
Praise The Lord

barbender

I don't know if anyone has seen where I shared my opinion of attorneys elsewhere, realtors don't land far from that for me.
Too many irons in the fire

SwampDonkey

Quote from: mike_belben on December 02, 2021, 08:58:22 AM
the states online mapper has every boundary shifted about 12 feet east in my neighborhood.  
You might not be using the right projection for the map. Most handhelds use WGS-84. The province here is on a NAD83 Double Stereographic projection. If that isn't projected properly it could be up in the middle of northern Quebec by 400 miles. :D The maps however are not meant to be legal boundaries, just to find the lot. 12 feet is better than 1000 feet.  If you used an online map here to attempt to be a 'surveyor', it would be thrown out as invalid anyway. Plus a nice fine if prosecuted. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

mudfarmer

So what did the owner of the nice timber have to say when you called and offered to start cutting??  ;D

mike_belben

hes in ohio.  im gonna write him a letter and tell him he has a super prime forest in decline at peak prices and needs to cut it so he can put some money in a trust for his grandkids. the ash is bad with borer and the poplars are biiiig and sick looking.  beech will take over entirely if its high graded.

maybe he will ask me how much my management fee is to farm it out for him and go over it with a fine tooth clearing saw after?   ;D
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

Supposed to be west virginia before the industrial revolution.










Amazing.
Praise The Lord

stavebuyer

Most of the "old growth" and re-growth in the east is on sites that don't have the potential to grow those trees. Someone else will no doubt "undo" my decision but I am in the process of returning my river bottom crop ground to native hardwoods.

mudfarmer

Quote from: stavebuyer on December 06, 2021, 06:44:47 PM
Most of the "old growth" and re-growth in the east is on sites that don't have the potential to grow those trees. Someone else will no doubt "undo" my decision but I am in the process of returning my river bottom crop ground to native hardwoods.
It's worth a shot! Thanks for trying.

livemusic

Quote from: stavebuyer on December 06, 2021, 06:44:47 PM
Most of the "old growth" and re-growth in the east is on sites that don't have the potential to grow those trees. Someone else will no doubt "undo" my decision but I am in the process of returning my river bottom crop ground to native hardwoods.
What is your purpose of returning it to hardwoods? Just curious, as my brother and I have discussed this very thing! We were raised in the "river bottoms." Only a few tracts of woods are left, scarce as hen's teeth. Do you have heirs that will continue or do you have a trust set up?
~~~
Bill

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