deer repellent

[Qweaver]

We are back in WV and planting Norway spruce, Douglas Fir and Japanese Larch.  How do I keep the deer from eating these?  Tractor Supply stocks a couple of brands that are supposed to do the trick but they seem to be a bit pricy for treating 500 trees.
Quinton

[Pilot]

The problem with deer repellant is that you have to repeatedly apply it as it washes off the trees in the rain.

When I was working for the Forest Service, we put plastic tubes over the trees.  They weren't tubes actually, but looked like a piece of net woven into a tube shape.  These had to be placed over each tree, a stake put into the ground beside it and then the tube had to be attached to the tree somehow.  We used twist ties.  This process worked, but it about doubled the reforestation cost.  The plastic was formulated to degrade in the sun over a few years, but 3 year plastic, which might have lasted just 3 years on the east side of the mountains where they get more sun and more UV radiation, lasted about twice that long on the west side.

Now we have bud caps, which I am using.  They come in several styles.  You can simply staple "Write in the Rain" paper over the terminal bud, or you can use regular paper which will last for a few weeks, maybe long enough to protect the trees this season.  Then you'll need to apply them all over again each year until the trees grow above browsing height.

Having been retired for about 13 years now, I am out of the loop a bit on the latest developments, but we just planted 1180 trees on my place and I am bud capping my trees.  However, I am using a netting material from Terra Tech (Google them, then search for netting) that is lighter weight than the tubes we used and it comes in a continuous roll, 1000 ft. long.  It is lightweight, the whole roll weighing maybe10-15 lbs.  Cost is somewhere around $30-50.

Here's my procedure for what it is worth.  I have a bucket to carry everything in.  I have a little piece of plastic tubing (you could use PVC pipe or a tin can--anything 2 or 3" in diameter and lightweight) which I insert into the end of netting.  Shoving it in expands the netting so I can get my hand into it.  I shove it in about 10" with my arm inside the netting.  Then I cut the netting with scissors between my hand and the plastic tube, leaving the tube in the remaining netting.  At this point the netting which I have cut off is around my arm.  I put my hand down over the top of the tree and slide my hand out, leaving the netting over the tree.  Then I staple the netting at the top and down along the side so I won't come off easily.  I can cap about 80 trees per hour.

This netting is lightweight so it should degrade in the sun in a few years.  If not, at least it will always be at the top of the tree as the tree grows, keeping it in the sun.

This is the first year I have done this, so I can't report on effectiveness.  Also, our deer activity varies.  Sometimes we get one that hangs around a lot, then we might not see evidence of one for a year or two.  But considering the cost of protection vs. the reforestation investment, it was an easy decision for me to try it.

Richard Scott
Retired Silviculturist

[Phorester]

In my end of Virginia we use the chemical deer repellants.  In locations where we know we will get bad deer chewing on newly planted seedlings, we will top dip them in the repellent the day before they are planted. We mix the repellent according to directions, in a big trash can.  If we have many thousands to dip we will build a trough that slopes into the can.  When we dip a bundle of seedlings, we lay it on the trough so the excess will drain back into the can.   If it's just a few thousand, we will just hold the dipped trees over the edge of the can and let it drain back in.  But this gets hard on your back pretty quick.

After the trees are planted you just have to spray each one. Landowners will spray the repellent starting in late fall, about the end of November.  They might have to respray 2, 3, or 4  times until April the next year because it comes off in winter rains or snow as Scott says.

If you go this route, you will just have to find out which brand works in your area.  Here we get good results with Deer-Away.  But the Forester east of me doesn't like it. He has much more of a deer problem than I do, and he says the deer just ignore this brand.  Other brands that work are Hinder and Hot-Sauz.  There's others on the market.

The important thing though is to use 2 or 3 different brands.  Deer will get use to one brand and ignore it.  Switch brands at least every year, wouldn't hurt to do it each time you spray.

Things to keep in mind with these:  They are actually retardants, not repellents.  In other words the deer have to eat a few trees to get the taste in their mouth before they shy away from it.  So you will still get a little nibbling, it's not 100% perfect.  Second,  you only have to spray the terminal bud of each tree.  Spray until the repellent runs down 6 inches or so. Browsing the lateral buds won't hurt the tree. Third, you only have to spray 3 or 4 years until the seedling is 4 - 5 feet tall.  Then the deer might still browse it, but they usually don't touch the terminal bud at that point, and there's so many lateral buds then that they don't hurt the tree.

About the cost and time, what's the alternative of not protecting the trees from deer damage, voles, insects, etc?  Probably loosing all the trees you planted.  It just part of the cost of establishing the trees.  Even a few dollars spent per tree will be looked upon as a good investment 20 years after the trees are planted when you will have a lot of nice tall trees.

Remember you're converting a field to a forest.  It ain't easy.   ;D  But it's worth it.

[Qweaver]

Now that I've done a fair amount of reading on the subject, I think I'm going to fence the main one acre area where I'm planting the bulk of the trees. Expensive but I really want these trees to survive.   Areas where I'm planting just a few trees I'll try Pilots method.  We won't be here for most of the winter months to tend to them so I think fencing is my only option.  Just what I didn't need was another job to take me away from working on the cabin. 
Thanks for the replies, good info!
Quinton

[bitternut]

Quinton if you planted white spruce I don't believe you would have any problem with deer browsing. I have never seen any damage to white spruce from deer browsing. I also don't think they will bother the larch since they drop their needles every fall. I have never planted any myself but there are several blocks of them planted and growing quite well in my area. I am positive that they have had no preventive measures taken to prevent deer browsing.

On the other hand though the deer will destroy every douglas fir tree that I have ever tried to grow. Some have survived but they have been eaten back so bad that they look like bottle brushes. I think you will need some serious measures to keep them away from the firs.

The only deer damage I do get to the white spruce is in the fall from the bucks. They like to beat the crap out of the end tree in the rows.

[Pilot]

Fencing!  Man, you need a good fence.  If you planted 1 acre and it was square, you would need 835 ft. of fencing.  I would guess the cost per tree saved would be pretty darn high, although a solar powered electric fence might do the trick.  Don't know if it's been tried.

Tall rigid tubes might be a cheaper option.  You only need to protect the trees until they get about 3-4 ft. tall, then they only browse the laterals, unless they are really hungry.  The terminal bud is what you need to protect.  The most expensive tubes that Terra Tech sells, 4" in diameter and 36" tall go for $.90 each, and installation costs may run the total cost up to about $1.50 per tree, giving you a cost of $750 for the most expensive tubing option.  Can you fence it for that?

I am not thrilled with the tubing option, but unless you need the fence anyway, I would tube before fencing, and as I have mentioned, I am bud capping before tubing.  BTW, my entire planting cost for my 1180 seedlings ran me about $750, including paying a guy to plant 960 trees (I planted the rest--OK, I'm a wimp ).  For the cost of tubing, I could replant the whole place, which would not likely be needed.

Another thing--As bitternut mentioned, deer are not likely to go after all 3 species.  Ask around.  You may only need to protect the DF.  Deer really like the nursery stock DF, but don't go after the wild stock much and after a year or 2, don't seem to damage the nursery stock any more.  Probably they taste better when full of nutrients from the nursery.

[Tom]

Yes, one must have fence.  A fence strong enough to hang a hide on every morning.  If you religiously follow that regimen, the deer will eventually get the idea and quit eating the trees.


I tried solar powered electric fence.  In the morning you could see the area where the herd had milled around as they "odd manned" to see who was going to tear the fence down.  Sending one through the others would follow and decimate the garden.

I've heard that the next best thing for a small area is dogs.

[Left Coast Chris]

I have not tried this but a neighbor mentioned to try a electric wire and put peanut butter on it for them to lick.  As kids we all tryed the 9v battery on the toung.......you could imagine that the voltage from the fence would leave a lasting impression.

Another method being marketed out here are the motion sensor sprinklers that come on in a burst that scares the deer away.   Not sure they are intended for the hordes of deer you probably have.   May be worth a try for smaller areas.

[stonebroke]

Farmer
You have it almost right. You take aluminum pie tins and hang them from the electric wire and smear peanut butter on them. Makes a much bigger target.

Stonebroke

[Qweaver]

I have definitely decided to fence and I'm now just trying to find the best price for fence.  I can get 75" game fence with 12" verticle spacing for $275 per 333' roll here locally.  I've not had much luck finding a way to buy it on the web.
  We'll fence enough to make a garden spot for our cousins to have a community garden also and when the trees are big enough I'll move the fence to an adjacent area to make a more permanent community garden area.  I hear everyone complain about the deer eating their gardens...maybe I'll just rent out garden plots. :D
Quinton

[scgargoyle]

Is that 75" tall fencing? My nephew in upstate NY put up 8' fencing, and they went right over it. He added another 4', and so far, so good. I didn't think a deer could jump 8', and neither did he until he saw one do it. When I was a kid, a lot more deer died of 'lead poisoning', and people didn't have these problems (or Lyme disease).

[LT40HDD51]

Has anyone tried using human or unnatural scents around the planted areas? Ive heard tell of using human hair (from a barbershop  ;)) or soap or dryer sheets, stuff like that to keep deer out of gardens. Dont really know if theres anything to this...

[Tom]

I've tried human hair, soap, electric fence and radio.  The only scent I thing might really work is Human scent attached to a 12 gauge such that the aroma of gunpowder wafts over the bodies    carcasses roast

A dog might work if they don't become friends.

[thecfarm]

On a small scale,like a garden,newspapers work.When my Father had a garden here he fought the deer all the time.Tired all the tricks,some helped but nothing worked.When I took the garden over I layed down newspaper and hay for weed control.This works,no deer on my garden.Does take a lot of time to put it all down.Have to wet the ground,put down the newspaper,wet it again,put down the hay,wet it again.This keeps away thing from blowing away.But you do have to plant the things they don't like around the edge,like tomatoes.The deer here will not eat them,so far.One year I planted beans on the outside rows,as far as the deer could reach into the garden,without stepping on the newspaper,they mowed the beans down.I find out they will not step into the garden.Been working for 7 years now.

[Phorester]

Deer can jump straight up for quite a ways, but can't jump forward very far at the same time.  Years ago Westvaco installed a research plot on a property in one of my counties.  They fenced it with an 8 feet tall fence, but built it on a 45 degree angle, slanted outward. So the deer would have to jump 8 feet high and 12 feet forward at the same time.  No deer ever got inside.

Hair, dryer sheets, etc., seem to work for small numbers of deer.  But as with commercial repellents, deer will get used to it so you have to substitute from time to time.  I've also heard that human hair must have the follicle attached to repel deer.  If that's the case, barber shop clippings won't work.

[jim king]

Lion and jaguar crap works great but probably a little hard to find.

[thecfarm]

Probaly a little hard to manage too.   :D

[Corley5]

But you do have to plant the things they don't like around the edge,like tomatoes.

Maine deer don't like tomatoes  eh eh  Michigan deer will eat both the vine and fruit green or ripe 

[Tony_T]

Small pieces of lead at high velocities directed just behind the shoulder.

[bitternut]

New York deer love tomatoes also. So far I have only witnessed two things that deer don't eat in my area. They definitely won't eat the white spruce or iron wood seedlings. I have witnessed deer pawing up and eating leeks several times while spring turkey hunting. I did not realize they liked golden rod till one spring day I observed a very pregnant doe walk slowly across a field. About every other step she bent her head down to the ground and snipped off a stalk of fresh golden rod. Then she would stand there with the stalk sticking out of her mouth and as her jaw moved it would slowly disappear. When the stalk was gone she would take a few more steps and reach down for another stalk. The golden rod was only up about a foot or so and must have been at just the right stage for eating. Deer seem to adapt to what food is available and seem to readily adjust their browsing to what is at hand at the moment. If preferred foods are in reach they will leave some things alone but when hungry most anything is food to them.

I agree that a 75" fence is way to low. I have done a lot of deer hunting in Bradford County PA at my friends place and we used to do a lot of spotlighting before the rifle season opened. There was a fellow down the road that had a small garden ( maybe 20 x 40 ) that was fenced with a wire fence at least 7' high. I don't think that we ever put a light on that garden that there wasn't at least one deer inside it. :D Better go with 8' height.

[Corley5]

I use the electric fence ribbon that's white with stainless threads in it around my pumpkin patch.  I put the top strand at 50" and the bottom at 30".  It works  8)  I dont' stretch it up super tight as I was told that the white ribbon fluttering in the breeze would also serve as deterent.  It does work.  I put it up around Labor Day normally but last year there must have been enough preffered foods available as they didn't work on the punkins much and I didn't string up fence.  I also don't have a lot of deer.  I saw the same family group of six all last summer and fall.

[thecfarm]

I can't ever recall my Father saying the DanG deer ate the tomatoes or the plants in his 70 or so years.Everything else,yes. have not had any trouble in 6 years with my tomatoes plants,YET.Now that being said those DanG deer will come and stripe them all.  :D I have heard of a few gardeners having trouble,but not me.

[PineNut]

For a garden area, I have had success with an electric fence and then some cross fences to divide the garden up into smaller areas.  Seems the deer don't like getting inside a small fenced area. Using removable fences, they can be moved when you need access to the garden. 

[Furby]

Lion and jaguar scrappola works great but probably a little hard to find.

Hmmm....... My nextdoor neighbor works at the zoo...............

[Fla._Deadheader]

  My experience shows that deer will not jump a fence, if they can't see through it.

  Not an option for a large area, though.