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wavy cuts on my B-16

Started by mike phillips, January 31, 2021, 09:28:49 PM

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mike phillips

hey guys. i just posted but wasnt logged in so here goes again. i have a b-16 that i dont use very often cause its so much trouble. wavy cuts and such. mill is exactly level and wheels exactly plumb. blade is perfectly level with frame without the guide rollers but i have guide rollers that are set right too. mike at timberking has been helping me (great customer service) but i wondered if yall also had any experience like this. i see on you tube videos b-20 guys have great sucess with their saws and i cant figure out why i have all these problems. i have new idle side bearing which has tiny bit of slack but jason at timberking says thats normal. i noticed when i was changing blades my drive side wheel had some slack and i saw where the set screws were a little loose so i tightened them and got rid of most of it but i can tell theres a very small amount of play still there. the wheel rotates smoothly and i dont hear any noises or grinding. after i tightened the 2 set screws and replaced the belts i adjusted the tracking again and it was pretty easy(for the first time). surprised me as its always taken a while to set tracking. i can spin wheels both ways and blade stays flush with back of wheel. seems like with most b-20 owners alignment is for the most part a one time deal. get that right and you just go from log to log, all day long, with a very minimum amount of problems. i believe i have a great saw, i just cant put my finger on my problem. unless maybe tightening those set screws may have fixed it. i just dont know. glad you guys are here even though i dont post very much. thanks for any help. im STUMPED. 

Southside

Well, are these new bands? Sharp? Set OK?  It happens that a new box of bands have issues now and then.  Can you try out a different batch of bands and eliminate that from the equation?  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

farmfromkansas

Wavy cuts is usually the first sign of a dull blade.  What blades are you using? Do you sharpen your own? Might want to increase the set on your blades. Just read on this forum that shallow gullet blades cut straighter than deep gullet blades.  How about blade tension?
Most everything I enjoy doing turns out to be work

ladylake

 Back off the guide wheels and make sure the blade is level with the deck, then with the movable guide all the way open have the guide wheels push the blade down 1/4 " on both guide wheels.  Set the flange 1/4 " behind the blade.  With that done if it still saws wavy get different blades,  make sure they have enough set as some coming out lately are set too little.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

terrifictimbersllc

I dont know how the adjustments you've made in the first post, we have different mills.

But on mine where I pay regular attention to the roller and most other adjustments, the first cause of waviness is a dull band.  The second is drive belt tension.  The belt from the engine that drives the band wheel regularly stretches and needs to be kept at a certain tension.  Lower tension leads to slippage and the first sign of that is wavy cuts from the blade slowing down due to being pushed too hard or going through wider or harder areas in the wood.  

Check your drive belt tension and tighten it up to the spec that the manufacturer gives.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Stephen1

I vote on drive belt tension also. It is my go to for a wavey cut right after I change to a new sharp blade. 
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

Brad_bb

Other common causes are 
...feeding too fast such that it can't clear the chips fast enough.  
...the particular band you're using versus the HP of your mill.  On my LT15 I have a 19hp gas and that is considered low HP so for cutting hardwood I need to use woodmizer's 4° bands.  It's like taking off in first gear versus trying to take off in 4th gear(more aggressive band), you don't have enough power to get going and you stall it.
...cutting very hard wood or cutting into knots where grain direction is changing a lot.  I need to slow down and let the sharp teeth cut and clear.  If you feed too fast, the band will try to follow the grain change (path of least resistance).  

I cut Osage orange which is very very hard wood with changing grain direction.  I have to keep sharp bands on and be very careful how I feed.  I go through a band a log on average, sometimes 1.5.
You didn't say what wood you're cutting, what HP your mill is, or what blade you're using?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

mike phillips

hello guys. been outside working on my saw. sorry, i have a 25 hp kohler on my saw and have been using cooks bands but right now i have a timberking band on it. i ordered belts for it from mike and got a couple of bands too. right now i am making sure my moveable guide roller is dead on. i dont have a way to check belt tension but my motor is adjusted as far as it will go i think and right now i have been cutting pecan. my blade is perfectly level with frame so i wonder if you even have to use guide rollers to get a good straight cut. also my feed is very slow. im wondering if i have a tiny bit of slack on drive side wheel if that would cause me problems? its not much but i can feel it. also, i dont know why but when i start into a cut my motor always bogs down, even cutting cedar. listening to mills on you tube it seems like i dont hear them bog down. i put a new carb on mine a while back, and a fuel pump, and i think i got all the linkage and governor springs back in the right place. i was thinking the governor kept it from doing that. and when i throttle up before i start a cut the choke handle comes out like im choking it for some reason. i always just push it back in and then it stays. a friend of mine knows small engines pretty good and he said he will look at it before too long. seems like engine should stay revved up though. maybe thats part of my problem? thank yall. i appreciate the help.

Southside

Well, that just might be the problem. When band speed in FPM drops performance suffers, waves happen, etc. That drop in FPM is often from a loose drive belt, but your engine loosing it's torque and RPM would accomplish the same thing. Add onto that sawing Pecan, especially if it's dry, can present challenges when everything with the mill is perfect. I have stalled my 55HP turbo diesel in dry Hickory, which saws just like Pecan.

I would get your engine running right and eliminate that as a possible cause. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

trapper

I need a drive belt tension gauge but cant find one on woodmizer website. any recomentations? 
stihl ms241cm ms261cm  echo 310 400 suzuki  log arch made by stepson several logrite tools woodmizer LT30

Southside

Have you just tried to find a belt deflection gauge or belt tension checker on line?  A quick search and they show up.
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

barbender

You might need to call WM and ask for it, but I'm sure they have them.
Too many irons in the fire

ladylake

 Mike

 You have to run 1/4" down pressure, that's important  . Get that governor working good to keep the RPM up.  The rod that pushes the motor up is adjustable, are you using that. If its to the end of adjustment you need a new belt.  If you have a 3 groove pulley they don't slip very easy.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

esteadle

I think this is a blade sharpness and setting issue.

Is this a brand new band? If not, how many board feet / hours has it cut since it was sharpened? 

Who sharpened it and did they also set it when they did so? 

What happened when you tried a different band in the same log? 

Can you take a very close up picture of the band you are using when this waviness happens and post it here? 


mike phillips

hey guys. first off, thanks for all of your advice and help. been trying to tune in my saw and may be doing something right , or else its the new timberking blade i just put on. i made sure both wheels were plumb and that both guide rollers were set  up right. on a b-16 the moveable guide roller must be a little different than a b-20. to make mine work i had to make the moveable guide arm that hangs down out of plumb and let it go to the rear of saw to have the 1/4 in clearance to back of the blade as i didnt have that on my b-16. then i plumbed the adjustable block and i think i got it set up ok when i move it either direction. and the drive side roller is ok. about 3/16 deflection and clearance to back of blade. i cant go 1/4 in deflection or my blade almost hits the frame under drive side wheel. anyway, i made perfectly flat cuts on a 5ft by 24 in pecan log. i wonder why no one has mentioned the slack i had in drive side wheel until i tightened up the set screws on the shaft. now there is just a tiny bit of slack but i was able to make wheels track spinning them both ways fairly easy which used to take a long time. i wonder if its because i took out the play or maybe its the new belts i put on the wheels? anyway it is staying adjusted after cutting only 2-3 logs so far so im hoping for the best. also, i cant tell if motor is bogging down as bad as it was but i straightened out some carb linkage that was bent a little and it seemed to help some, and my b-16 doesnt have a rod i can tighten up to adjust motor. i just have it as tight as it will go right now.

ladylake

 Mike
  Try and send some pics of the movable guide,  the drive side wheel and set screws that was loose and the arm that engages the motor.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

mike phillips

hello again. ok steve, i will try and take some pictures and put them on here although im not too smart on doing that. there are 2 set screws on my drive side shaft right behind the wheel 90 degrees to each other and those are what i tightened up. it used to be very hard for me to set tracking by spinning wheels both ways but i didnt have a problem this time. i kind of think its because i tightened up drive side wheel a little. hard to believe that a couple of minor adjustments straightened out all my problems but i dont know what else it could be. i think my idle side moveable guide roller will stay adjusted now with me using the adjustable guide block and i may put some loctite on the 2 set screws on drive side to make sure it stays good. i had to tilt moveable guide bar back to rear of saw and not worry about it being plumb, i just made sure it was the same distance to back of blade whichever way i moved it and then i was able to get roller plumb by plumbing the adjustable block. i dont know if thats how you do a b-20 or not but i think theyre set up a little different and thats the only way i could do it on my b-16 so i would have adequate clearance from back of blade to guide roller. i only hope it keeps cutting like it is as i have always had to mess with it and it was a pain. the way i understand it once you get one set up right you shouldnt have to mess with it all the time. only thing i can maybe do now is get a new drive belt cause mine is adjusted as far as it will go. maybe it would give my saw more pep? mine is a 1994 model and i have heard of people doing a flywheel and coil conversion kit on a 25 hp kohler motor. its an ignition system update. has anyone here done this conversion? its kohler part # 24755308S. at least for my motor it is. i would do it if it would give my motor more pep but i dont know if i would gain that much. thanks to everyone for all of your help and advice.

Brad_bb

It took me years to start to understand the relationship between band sharpness, feed speed, grain of the wood/knots, drive belt tension etc and how to minimize waves.  I still get them from time time, but it's usually for one of the reasons noted and due to experience I can quickly adjust by changing bands, or checking drive belt tension, or slowing down the feed speed around changing grain direction.  Heck, dirt in the bark can quickly take the edge off a bunch of teeth (i don't have a debarker) and if your cutting something with hard or significant knots or changing grain direction, you'll get waves.  You have to recognize and adjust.  Bigger Horsepower mills might not have the same issues to the extent I do because of more blade speed and power and wider bands.  I'm sure they have to deal with it some too though.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Stephen1

BB your right, we all have to deal with waves, and only experience and knowledge reduce the amount of bad boards you saw. 
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

mike phillips

hello guys. here is an update. i got the tool to adjust the guide rollers with from cooks and got them adjusted dead on. i had been cutting a 22 in by 6 ft pecan log and it cut good till i was almost done and it started cutting wavy so i assumed it was dull and changed it and it cut perfect again. my motor seems not to bog down too bad, maybe a little. the tracking is set to where i can spin the wheels both ways and the band stays in the same place. so i dont know but i am using timberking blades and so far its been going really good. the cuts on the pecan were extremely flat. so i want to thank all of you for your advice and help. so far so good and im hoping for the best. thanks.

alan gage

Glad things are looking up!

If I'm not mistaken Timberking sells 10* blades and I'm guessing most people would recommend 4* for hardwoods like pecan. Maybe something to try if you still have troubles.

I mostly cut hardwoods or knotty softwoods and 4* is all I run on my B-16. Not saying it's best but I've been happy.

Alan
Timberking B-16, a few chainsaws from small to large, and a Bobcat 873 Skidloader.

Woodpecker52

Woodmizer recommended 10 degree on solfwood, 4 degree on hard, works great for me.
Woodmizer LT-15, Ross Pony #1 planner, Ford 2600 tractor, Stihl chainsaws, Kubota rtv900 Kubota L3830F tractor

ladylake



 Thanks for the update, too many post a problem and never report back.  Sounds like you got it fixed except for dull blades.  4° cut straighter longer in tough wood.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

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