wood Chips

[Chansey]

Hi All,

I'm in Northern New Mexico and have been lurking the forum for a long time. 

I have access to chips/shavings from a log peeler at the local lumber mill.  Problem is that the wood chips are not uniform in size or shape and would like to process them further so that I can use the material as mulch and soil amendment.

Any recommendations as to what economical mulcher/grinder/pulverizer is best to reduce the the size of the wood chips?

Currently using 100% slab wood for heat.

Thanks

[WDH]

Wood chips have limitations as a soil amendment.  The issue is the high carbon to nitrogen ratio in the wood.  Because there is so much carbon in relation to nitrogen in the chips, the bugs that break down the carbon steal nitrogen from the surrounding soil, deleting it of nitrogen.  This seriously affects the plants in the vicinity, starving them for nitrogen.  To make this work, you would have to add supplemental nitrogen fertilizer to offset what the bugs steal from the soil.

Reducing the particle size of the wood residue will help speed up the breakdown of the carbon.

[Chansey]

I own 6 acres along the Chama River.  In years past, before the Abiquiu Dam was built, the land was in a flood plane and the first 12" to 14" of soil is a very dense clay and does not drain.  Water will sit on the surface for months.  Below the clay is sand/gravel.

My aim is to add the chips and plow the material into the clay to break it up and get some drainage.  Salt grass is the only thing that will grow on it now.  Would like to develop a pasture for the horses.

The mill also has piles of bark/dirt from the log laydown area (scaled logs) that is also available.

[thecfarm]

Chansey,welcome to the forum. I suppose what you want to do is on a big scale,6 acres in size? I have no idea,but I would think it would be pricey for a grinder,chipper like what you want,due to the volume I would think you need. You must have the equipment to move all these chips and bark and get them into the ground. I have no idea either,but in my state of Maine,doing something like what you want to do along a water shed I would have to get the state involved too.They would have to agree with what ever I was doing,be it right or wrong.

[sandhills]

Welcome to the forum Chansey, would tiling be an option where you're located?

[Randy88]

First off what kind of clay are you dealing with, theres a lot of different kinds of clay out there, second, what you want to do can be done but maybe a little different than how you are thinking, not to be critical but heres an idea instead, is there any compost yards around you or any city mulch yards that they grind it and its free for the taking, around here most cities have free mulch and compost available to take and its free, key word there is free, they have the expense in it not you.    If thats not an option then I'd recommend you to compost it yourself first before spreading it out, that way a lot of the problems you'll encounter with the nitrogen thing is over and you have a product to mix with the soil.   

Depending on the type of clay you have will determine your sucess or not, if its blue clay your pretty much wasting your time and money, if its the bright yellow tight stuff, your in about the same boat, if its a softer or less dense version thats better, if you can get a soils book and a soil type thats the place to start with, next is the area prone to high water table levels or is it prone to flooding or having water sit on top of the ground for a long period of time, say weeks at a time and if so does the water sit on top or is it saturated and the level of water is there and nowhere to run?   Tiling might be your best bet if the water table isn't at or above the top of the ground, the next problem you have is it probably doesn't freeze down there to help fracture the soil like it does in the midwest, if tiling would help I'd recommend it to be trenched in not plowed in to help mix the layers of soil in the tile trench or it won't help at all, the water won't make it through the topsoil to get to the tile lines to drain.   

You can use the compost to basically add organic matter to the soil but if it were composted that would be better because its already to apply and mix, now for six acres your gonna need hundreds of truck laods of the stuff and a way to mix it in, your talking major expense, probably more than its worth in the long run and a grinder, probably a tub grinder to mix it and way to spread it like a manure spreader and a plow to mix it in or a chisel plow and keep adding as you go but I'd imagine it would cost thousands per acre to do if you had to buy the equipment yourself, now if you had access to a compost yard where its free then you just haul it home and spead it out and mix it in, so its mainly time and a few machines to do it.    Before I'd  ever get carried away with spending a lot of money I'd have a lot of experts or shall I say someone with knowledge look at it and come up with a plan first.   

You could always just use the chips as they are and spread them out and mix them in and wait, letting mother nature work her magic of breaking them down for you and then mix it in or do it as you go and let the land sit idle for a few years, its no different than a timber, it will all decompose and rot down and mix in the topsoil eventually after a logging opertion is done, the chips would rot faster but the principle is the same but your still looking at a lot of loads to make it work, you need to basically add about half and half soil to wood chips so if the soil is one foot deep you need to spread over a foot deep of chips because it will rot down and you'll lose a lot of depth due to rot and add more as you go kinda thing.  Is there any ag extension services out there that could help you, there services is free and they could at least advise you on  a direction to go.   

[Magicman]

First, Welcome Chansey, to the Forestry Forum.  As WDH indicated, wood products have to compost before they are of any value to the soil.  I've seen customers virtually kill their vegetable gardens by tilling sawdust into the soil.

There are sawdust piles throughout our National Forest from our logging/sawmill era.  Some over 75 years old.  Dig into them 6" and the sawdust seems fresh.  The stuff just doesn't rot and nothing eats it.

[Chansey]

Thanks for the welcome.  One of the reasons I joined is that from reading the various posts, all seem to be level headed, sincere and VERY helpful.

A little more info..........

Being right on the river with 300 ft of frontage, the water table is 6" at the river to 5"-0" at the far west end (1500 ft from the river).  The water table is seasonal and in early spring it is at 2'-6".  I have a 1/4 acre pond on the property and the freeboard is at 5'-0".

As for the amount of property to be treated, the house, barns and storage buildings take up about 2 acres.  That leaves about 4 acres.

I agree that composting the wood chips is the way to go.  I too have noticed that on their own, they do not breakdown very well.  We do not have much in the way of mulch or top soil in our area.  I  don't have too many alternatives.

As to the clay, It is very dense and I believe you could make pottery with it.  When wetted and worked with the hands, it's a bear to wash off.  In a few areas where I wanted drainage, I took the backhoe and removed all the clay down to the sand layer.  I took arroyo sand (aluvial wash and loam) and blended the material with the clay.  The ratio was 6 parts sand to 1 part clay. It's working well.

When I put the access road in for the property, I placed 400 tons of river pit run material (gravely sand, gravel and rock up to 3" in diameter just so I could drive on to the property. It only got me about 800 lineal feet of road.

Can someone give me some pointers on the compost process.  I don't mind adding fertilizer (nitrogen), manure or other amendents to make this happen.  I need some basic info such as how high, how deep and how often to turn the material.  I have a JCB 1700b backhoe and a Case 1155E track loader (absolutely necessary when the surface is wet). I don't mind the work and will do what is necessary. 

Thanks for all the help.

[beenthere]

As WDH suggested, go heavy on the Nitrogen fertilizer. Mix the chips in well with the clay and you should give a big boost to your potential for pasture. I think you are on the right track.  Ammonium nitrate fertilizer would work well for you. The lbs per acre would need to be calculated.

[Randy88]

Whats freeboard?  How much slope is on the property from one end to the other and when you dig down is the sand waterlogged and if so how deep do you dig before its waterlogged.    If your going to compost and do it before mixing it in you need to mix or turn it often, say once a week and I wouldn't start with sawdust, I'd go with chips instead with some sawdust mixed in, you need to continuously work air and turn it to get it to decompose or else put other things in with it, study composing and how it works and what it takes.  You can spread the sawdust out real thin and work it in or also use the chips the same way, you can use manure, straw, anything and mix it in, what you wanting is organic matter and a pretty good amount of it added to the soil.  Has any soil samples been taken to find the fertility level of the ground and lastly how much rain do you get a year in your area.   As for tiling to work it depends on how much slope and how waterlogged if any it is and how much sand is in the subsoil, the sandier it is the more you'll have to use covered tile or have a sock wrapped around the tile to keep sand out.   As for mixing something into the top soil I think your on the right track but it'll take years and a lot of material to make it work.   What was growing on the property before? grass, weeds, nothing

[Chansey]

FREEBOARD--•height of the crest of a structure above the still water level

The property is 1780 ft long and drop from west to east is only 3'-0"--basically flat.  East end drops down into thee Chama River.

Rainfall or snow is only 5 to 10" per year.  We need to irrigate.  I have a sprinkler system available but not installed.   I can pump the pond day after day and water level will only drop 6" or so.  If I much out the bottom, it refills immediately.

The  only waterlogged portion is the upper 1'-0"  of clay.  Next two to three feet is dry gravely sand until you hit water.

I have manure, straw and moldy hay available.  I am also willing to purchase commercial fertilizer as necessary.

From the input received, I will be adding organic material, horse manure and sand/loam to the chips.  I've given up on making it all saw dust.  I will also have to sprinkle the compost to add moisture.  All through Nov and into Dec , humidity has been less than 25%.  Even though the AM temps are 19 to 28 degrees, there is practically no frost on windshields.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

And Welcome to The Forum Chansey  ;) ;D ;D 8)

When I was a  Kid Dad my Uncles and my Grandfather use to dump sawdust and bark from a ring debarker and bark/shavings from a morbark style planer head post debarker on a couple of local farmers paddocks that the farmer use to just spread it out and plow it in on as we have a heavy clay n rock mix that starts 2 to 6" under the topsoil the farmers where using it to improve the top soil and water retension I was talikng to one of the farmers afew years ago about it and he said they are his best and most productive paddocks now  ;)

It dose take awhile and if the bark chips or sawdust are fresh they will take abit of nitrogen out of the soil in the first few years of decomposition which you would have to allow for if you wanted to plant anything to make it productive Mate   ;)

Regards Chris

[Chansey]

Thanks for the positive response.

I've owned the property since 2006 and leaving it "as is" will not improve anything.  I'm willing to work it and wait 3 years for results.  I was not expecting instant results.

Not having worked with any wood products in the past, this is a new experience for me and I'm looking for ideas and information on what I have available to me.

How will moldy hay work with the chips??  I have about 20 semi truck loads of horse manure available as well.  Will start hauling next week.

Cheers all.

[Randy88]

Sorry I've been gone and not around to read this, first I think your on the right track, you need to add something and mix it in the topsoil, if you have that much horse manure your headed the right direction, now spread it out and also spread out the chips and work them in as you go, say a layer of chips and also a layer of manure or two and work it in and repeat the process again, maybe even chisel it a few times and just keep adding chips and manure and chisel it again, the manure will work fine with the chips and that should have enough nitrogen to help with decompositon and make things work, your also fertilizing the ground as you go and adding nutrients so its a added bonus.    From what you described I don't think tile is the way to go, if you have a sandy layer just under the topsoil and the sand is dry or on the drier side then don't mess with tile, you need somthing to add organic matter and dilute the tight clay so it drains and lets water through it.   I've done simular things with old grub ground thats just been cleared and ready to go into crops, I've even spread the manure up to and over a foot thick and let it partially decompose and then work it in and do it again and again to build up fertility levels and also lime the ground and whatever else.    The moldy hay will decompose just fine over time, the key is getting it spread evenly out and working it into the soil as you go.    The chips will break down over time and end up as compost so don't worry about trying to get them into sawdust, thats just added expense and speeds up the process some, but for the cost its not worth it for what your doing.     You could try subsoiling to help mix it up, most go about a foot deep or up to say 15 inches or so that would mix it up too, it depends on what you have available but the key is mix it in as you go.     Best of luck

[SwampDonkey]

Humous or peat is about the best thing to mix in that composting operation for your field along with your ammonium nitrate because of it's cation exchange capacity, the interaction that goes on in the soil to make nutrients available to plants. I would also think the high level of clay would help retain the nitrate. Real porous ground will loose that nitrate in rain and through/lateral water flow in the soil. You don't face that in your situation. Vermicullite, if added, can bind the ammonium and the microbes break this bond and make nitrate for plants to use. Might need some lime if PH falls below 5.6. Soil tests are important in your project.

Are the horses worth the expense?

[Chansey]

Thanks for the input.

No, the horses are not worth the expense---just sold all 3 of them

[Kansas]

I don't know if this helps you any or not. Several years ago a local feedlot needed a place to put cow manure from its feedlot. He hauled in a bunch and dumped it. After it had been sitting about a year, I got the idea to take sawdust and mix with some of the manure and compost it. I turned it on occasion. After close to a year I had both the manure and compost tested. Turns out the straight cow manure was completely composted down. I was also surprised at how low of level of nitrogen it tested. We sold some as well as used some on our garden at work. The sawdust/manure combo pretty well had the nitrogen sucked out of it. In retrospect, I should have gone much higher on the manure to sawdust mix. I think if I were you, I would use a lot heavier ratio manure to chips or sawdust than I did. I don't know what you have for feedlots, chicken or hog operations in your area.  I would use what you have and if you can get some other material cheap,  I don't think you can over do it.

I know it doesn't help you any, but that same feedlot hauled in about 600 farm truck loads this summer. Thought about trying it again, but going about 3/4 manure and 1/4 sawdust this time.