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log arch build

Started by Revival Sawmill, May 17, 2019, 04:55:00 PM

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Crusarius

your problem with the I beam is it offers no or very little torsional rigidity. you have a single vertical that is supporting 2 horizontals. the x's may stiffen it a little but not enough to make doing it worthwhile. and if it does stiffen it that little bit over time I guarantee you will get cracks from the heat affected zones on your x bracing across your tongue. 

There are only 2 ways to fix this that I can think of. Replace it with that bent box that you tried to straighten or full box it. If you are going to full box it, paint the I first. Then weld the plating on the outside and paint again. It will minimize rust. or box it in and seal it.

Since you will be lifting the logs up between the wheels the load will be centered there. The super stiff tongue may not even be necessary.

Whats the width inside the wheels? and length from inside tongue to wheels?

doc henderson

I assume Cru is wanting to calculate you max. poss. load.  if you get it welded up, you could do some careful test runs to see how it works.  add more steel as is needed.  If this is going into sloped rocky back wood applications, it may require the full box beam tongue treatment.  once you bend an I beam, it will never be the same.  quite impressive.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Revival Sawmill

I'm out of town today, but when I get back to the computer, I can put some sketches up. From memory, the inside of the arch is right around 30-31" (pretty sure I set it for the tires to be 48" apart, and to be able to haul the biggest log I want on the LT35),  the tongue is 119", the down section another 4", and the load will hang an inch or two off the back of the arch, mostly, so another 6" there?
Thanks again for all the help with this!

Crusarius

your definitely more than strong enough for the load you could possibly have. Not sure if I would worry about boxing the tongue. the only real reason I could think of is if the log is hanging from that part and swinging back and forth. The I beam was designed for a straight vertical load on it so side loading would not be ideal.

I probably would still box the tongue. but no need top use anymore than 1/8"

Revival Sawmill

Quote from: Crusarius on May 21, 2019, 12:34:11 PM
your definitely more than strong enough for the load you could possibly have. Not sure if I would worry about boxing the tongue. the only real reason I could think of is if the log is hanging from that part and swinging back and forth. The I beam was designed for a straight vertical load on it so side loading would not be ideal.

I probably would still box the tongue. but no need top use anymore than 1/8"
Thanks!  I'm less concerned about the tongue as I am the welds at the top of the 'down' portion of it right at the front, by the hitch.  In my mind, as I'm going down the road with a log, whenever I go around a curve or turn a corner, there will be some inertia from the front half of the log (chained to the horizontal portion of the tongue) pushing to the side; currently, I think this will cause the beam to twist a bit as the weight of the log tries to overshoot the direction I'm pulling the vertical/hitch part...? That's bound to fail eventually. 
I'm leaning towards boxing the tongue at this point - waiting for some prices from the steel guy, and trying to carve out some time to get back to this! 
I'll try to get some sketches of the arch up in a couple of minutes, and see if that makes any difference...  ;)

doc henderson

I have seen a few with a downward V to trap the front part of the log, or at least if it was chained to the tongue tightly would help.  I am not as worried with the simple inertia of the log that should move with the tongue, but if you developed a motion, like a resonance oscillation that could amplify, with movement and then abrupt forces when it swings and then hits the end of  a chain.  so I would develop a way to clamp the front of the log well.  also in a post I thought you said something about only going 6 inches past the arch.  but I think you want the log nearly centered at the arch with maybe a little forward for tongue wt.   all in all looking very good.  Without an engineering dept. and prototypes it is hard to fab up just enough, without going overboard.  As well, asking all of us tends to push in the overboard direction as well  :).  thanks for letting us participation in your build! 8).  so if the tongue is 10 feet, you could carry a 20 foot log.  I bet you could do a triangle inside the area of the log at the front of the tongue.  If not it can be outside the area of the log, but may look more clunky.  Regards!
addendum: went back and looked, you have it well triangulated at the front! looks great
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Revival Sawmill

Ok - here's the initial sketches from librecad - It changed a bit in construction (about 1/2" wider arch, the upper diagonal brace is longer/lower angle, etc) but this is basically it.  
Again, I can't claim any credit for the design, so don't take this as original/use it commercially/get me in trouble!  :o



 


 


 
Thanks,

Revival Sawmill

Quote from: doc henderson on May 22, 2019, 09:34:45 AM
I have seen a few with a downward V to trap the front part of the log, or at least if it was chained to the tongue tightly would help.  I am not as worried with the simple inertia of the log that should move with the tongue, but if you developed a motion, like a resonance oscillation that could amplify, with movement and then abrupt forces when it swings and then hits the end of  a chain.  so I would develop a way to clamp the front of the log well.  also in a post I thought you said something about only going 6 inches past the arch.  but I think you want the log nearly centered at the arch with maybe a little forward for tongue wt.   all in all looking very good.  Without an engineering dept. and prototypes it is hard to fab up just enough, without going overboard.  As well, asking all of us tends to push in the overboard direction as well  :).  thanks for letting us participation in your build! 8).  so if the tongue is 10 feet, you could carry a 20 foot log.  I bet you could do a triangle inside the area of the log at the front of the tongue.  If not it can be outside the area of the log, but may look more clunky.  Regards!
addendum: went back and looked, you have it well triangulated at the front! looks great
Thanks!  
I think I'll only be able to get about 16' under it, since the front bracing eats up some of that capacity - The couple of inches behind the arch should be the hoist point, if I've gotten this right, so a little less than half the log will stick out the back.  I'm planning to chain the front of the log to the tongue (a foot or two back from the front end of the log), but had thought to just hook it on there directly; do you think I need some sort of jaws/triangular recess/studs sticking down on either side to help trap it?
Thanks again,

doc henderson

I think as long as you can stop it from swinging and swaying you are fine.  The only other concern is if the front of the log is chained up, and that makes it higher than the center, then the back may drag the ground.  It could always be added later if that is a problem.  It could be something that slides forward and back on the square tongue to accommodate longer or shorter logs.  not all logs are strait so may help with that.  again, I would get it up and going and you then have a working prototype.  If you do not have spindles/hubs yet, could consider electric brakes with and actuator if you work on inclines ect.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Crusarius

any type of V notch is going to hold the front of the log from swaying and keep it straight. I would think about adding that. You will not be sorry.

Revival Sawmill

Then I'll rig up some way to snub the front of the log side to side!  Already have spindles, no electric brakes; hopefully the tractor (and someday the truck) is heavy enough to hold it!  They're the heaviest-duty ones I could find that didn't put me into an ag tire, from etrailer's website.  Showed up with the bearings in the same box with the hubs, all smashed up. 







 
 
 They were speedy with a replacement, so I'm pretty happy with that end of things so far.  We'll see how the spindles/bearings/hubs/tires work out once they're on there.
The plan now is to wrap the bearing surfaces of the spindles in some scrap canvas, tack-weld them into a piece of stainless angle a buddy loaned me at the correct spacing, flip the arch over, position the tips of the spindles equidistant from the hitch, tack them onto the bottoms of the 'foot' plates, grind the angle off, and weld a couple of pieces of 2"x1/2" bar on either side of each spindle to box them in.  If anyone knows a better way to get them aligned/straight/attached, I'm all ears!
Thanks,


Ljohnsaw

Quote from: Revival Sawmill on May 22, 2019, 11:35:14 AMIf anyone knows a better way to get them aligned/straight/attached, I'm all ears!

Are you planning on going down the highway?  Going fast?  In all reality, its not going to matter much on the alignment.  Sure, its nice to be perfect but if you are hauling through the woods on muddy, loose dirt or gravel, the tracking is not going to matter all that much.  Your excellent idea with the angle iron will result in alignment that will be 200% better than what is needed for this application! ;)

If you want to forgo the tacking of the spindles to angle iron, just clamp the angle to your pads and clamp the spindles to the angle and pads.  Then tack the spindles in place.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Revival Sawmill

Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 22, 2019, 11:42:41 AM
Quote from: Revival Sawmill on May 22, 2019, 11:35:14 AMIf anyone knows a better way to get them aligned/straight/attached, I'm all ears!

Are you planning on going down the highway?  Going fast?  In all reality, its not going to matter much on the alignment.  Sure, its nice to be perfect but if you are hauling through the woods on muddy, loose dirt or gravel, the tracking is not going to matter all that much.  Your excellent idea with the angle iron will result in alignment that will be 200% better than what is needed for this application! ;)

If you want to forgo the tacking of the spindles to angle iron, just clamp the angle to your pads and clamp the spindles to the angle and pads.  Then tack the spindles in place.
Glad to hear my plan should work! 
I'm going to register this with NCDOT/DMV as a home-built trailer, so I'll be able to drive down the road with it, but I hope to never get it on a highway, and if I do so, it'll be SLOW... 

Revival Sawmill

Here's a video of me cleaning up the tree that *almost* got the woodmizer, if you're bored. 
Time lapse of fallen tree cleanup - YouTube

Revival Sawmill

Steel to box the beam is on order.  My buddy at the steel place mentioned welding gussets into either side of the ibeam as a way to stiffen without ending up with enclosed spaces; anyone have any experience with this?  

I'm envisioning something like this:



 

Thanks,

Crusarius

Will help but will still twist and with those plates you will get cracking along the welds.

Plus that looks like an awful lot of places for crap to collect and cause rust.

doc henderson

I did this at key points on my log spliter.  8 x 8x 1/2 inch H beam.  back beside the wedge ect.  Mine are symmetrical.  your tongue is long enough that there can be huge forces.  no prob. as long as it is free rolling and the log is near balanced.  i.e. not forward and putting a lot of wt. on the tongue.  the problem with that (your pic) potentially is it locates the damage between the braces.  you could put triangles along the sides as well either solid with points down or rod like a radio tower.  solid along the edge with be the easiest and strongest in my opinion.  in a sudden situation under load, the physics involved will find the weakest link in your system.  so even if you are on flat ground, but rolling through the trees and catch a tire on a standing tree the torques the arch and tongue, this is what you are trying to prevent.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Revival Sawmill

Boxed in those sections of ibeam - much stiffer!  Used 3/16x4 bar - more difficult to weld than I was expecting, but it's on there, and not going anywhere.  Painted the back and inside of beam before I welded them on, and left the ends open, so hopefully that cuts down on the rot some. 




 


 

Revival Sawmill

Got going on the spindles - tried clamping to start with:



 

Wrapped the bearing surfaces to keep weld spatter and paint off:



 

There was daylight between the spindles and pads, so clamping/and the previous post about clamping the angle iron to the pads and welding that way to avoid tacking the spindles to the angle wouldn't work.



 

Spindles tacked to the angle, triangulated to the tongue, and angle tacked to the pads:



 

Let that cool, and tacked the spindles directly to the pads:



 

zipped the tacks, knocked the angle iron off, put many more tacks between both sides of the spindles and the pads, and ran a bead (let it cool between each step): 



 

Boxed in the spindles to give a bit more strength:



 

Got them both boxed, turned the thing sideways with the tractor to fix that hitch mount (so the mig gun would reach that end), and sure as heck, the power went out.  I went ahead and hosed what I could with Ospho, and sprayed the spindle cylinders / boxing/ pads with primer.  I'll paint what I can reach, fix that hitch mount, paint that, put the tires on, flip it upright, add some chain hooks, paint the top, and start using it! 8)



 

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: Revival Sawmill on May 27, 2019, 03:35:24 PMThere was daylight between the spindles and pads, so clamping/and the previous post about clamping the angle iron to the pads and welding that way to avoid tacking the spindles to the angle wouldn't work.


Well, you got-r-dun so that's the important part!  My thought was to clamp the angle so a flat side was against the pads and the other flat against the spindle.  Then clamp the spindle tight to the pad.  But, what you did worked and I like the additional boxing of the spindles!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

doc henderson

they make a rust converter, inhibitor, so maybe after welding you could flood/atomize  the back sides of your boxing if you are worried.  If not it might rust out in 50 years lol
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

Crusarius

Looks good. Now can you move it into position by hand? Or is it to heavy to move by hand?

I finally used a tow dolly I scored a long time ago to go retrieve a log tonight. Worked pretty good.

Revival Sawmill

Quote from: Crusarius on May 27, 2019, 09:43:27 PM
Looks good. Now can you move it into position by hand? Or is it to heavy to move by hand?

I finally used a tow dolly I scored a long time ago to go retrieve a log tonight. Worked pretty good.
Way too heavy to move around by hand!  I can lift the tongue, but have no desire to try moving it.  I'm figuring the steel weighs right around 600#.  I'll hook it to the tractor in the next couple of days and give it a test-run

Revival Sawmill

I'm sure everyone has seen enough of this thing, but I'll keep posting updates until I get it done.

fixed the hitch attachment



 

Got some paint on the bottom of everything, using the little air-compressor and an HVLP gun.  That turned a 30 minute job into a three hour struggle!  I'm going to have to brush paint the rest of it, or rig up a way to get more air to it.



 




 




 




 

Greased the bearings and got the hubs and tires mounted. 



 




 



 
(don't worry - I put the little caps over these)




 

The backs of the bearings had these odd grease-retainer things (below) they can't be on there correctly- not completely inside the hub recess, but not riding on the back of the hub either.  They kept squishing out of the hubs while I turned the tires.  It seems like they would melt with the friction of the hub rotating around them at any kind of speed?



 

Managed to flip it over with the tractor this morning, no injuries or damage! 8)




 

I'll have to do a bit more welding here and there, and finish the paint, then it's time to try using it!

Crusarius


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