How do they get away with this?

azmtnman · December 09, 2015, 11:01:22 PM

I know nothing about grading but I know it has to do with quality and strength. I also know this is a sour subject for some but why do we (the consumer and the competition) let them get away with this sloppy grading?

This is clearly an inferior 2x4 yet because it is "graded" the building inspectors would have to accept it if you used it in a wall. I understand things slip by, but these aren't hard to find in your big box stores.

Ianab · December 09, 2015, 11:13:32 PM

Machine grading. They aren't even looked at in the mill, just run through a machine that tests them for weak spots.

So although that board is poor quality, the machine determines that it's strong enough to hold up a wall, so it gets a stamp and goes in the stack. Of course it indicates that the grading standards are pretty low in the first place.

This is what the major complaint about HAVING to use graded lumber for buildings in many places. Any of us with a mill would look at the board, and put it aside for something unimportant, like the fire pit.

beenthere · December 09, 2015, 11:45:31 PM

As users, we don't have to use what is not up to our own standards.
But expect those shown either do meet the grade or are in the % that is allowed which does not meet the grade.

Stamped a stud grade, it only needs to hold the wall a certain distance apart and very little strength is needed to do that. Once the wall is finished and nailed/screwed together as a composite structure, it's good to go for ages.

And Ianab said it well.

As an aside, I buy unsalted whole almonds to eat as snack food. Amazing what ends up in that bag that I don't consider edible. So I sort them out and don't eat them. But I don't quit buying them by the bag either. ;)

DMcCoy · December 10, 2015, 08:14:48 AM

NOT defending big mills here or their grading practices.
But STUD grade is very low, vertical use only -this surprised me, learned something new today.

I always ask for #2 btr. which will cost a bit more. As my father in law once said -
"code - is a minimum standard".

WWPA - lumber grades.

http://www.wwpa.org/TECHGUIDE/Grades/tabid/849/Default.aspx

Ron Wenrich · December 10, 2015, 08:28:54 AM

The last time I was at Lowe's and bought lumber, I remarked to the teller that their definition of premium lumber and mine are different. In my area, Home Depot has better quality lumber, for the most part.

Magicman · December 10, 2015, 08:35:14 AM

Since they are "allowed" a certain % that is below grade you can rest assured that the lower % is in there. :P

DMcCoy · December 10, 2015, 08:40:45 AM

Quote from: Magicman on December 10, 2015, 08:35:14 AM
Since they are "allowed" a certain % that is below grade you can rest assured that the lower % is in there. :P

Just like hotdogs...or...OSB

Larch · December 10, 2015, 09:35:48 AM

Buying framing lumber is not a pleasant experience. I've taken to using engineered products like versa lams and versa studs to avoid the heartache. I can't believe the stuff they sell.

woodmills1 · December 10, 2015, 06:55:24 PM

there is no maximum amount of rat hairs or turds in framing lumber, as there is in hot dogs. >:(

beenthere · December 10, 2015, 07:02:13 PM

There are higher grades of framing lumber... but likely few people really want to pay the price.

Those higher grades go into trusses, and engineered products such as laminated beams and laminated arches.

What doesn't meet the higher grade for those products, falls to a lower grade. And then the next lower grade.
At some point, no one will buy the poor quality lumber.
But still there are many who still shop at the box stores that have it for sale.

But whose fault is it, if someone will still buy it?

I don't see it as being the box stores fault.

tburch · December 10, 2015, 07:31:48 PM

I see it as part of the big box stores fault. They are consciously segregating lumber.

For example, Home Depot. Home Depot has different markets for lumber. Houston is quite different than Dallas. If you scrutinized all the #2 grade studs, there are those studs that might be at the bottom of the grade and those at the top. For Home Depot, the top grade #2s go to Dallas. The bottom grade go to Houston.

Living near the Houston market, I feel cheated.

sawguy21 · December 10, 2015, 07:49:05 PM

I can't find better quality studs, nobody stocks them. Here at least, the majority go to the Port of Vancouver for the overseas market. I wouldn't build a garden shed let alone a house with most of what I see.

beenthere · December 10, 2015, 08:12:47 PM

Right, those higher grades are sold off to the high-end users long before Home Depot see's hide nor hair of them. ;D But a lumber broker will likely be able to find you a few Mbf in maybe a minimum carload of the high grade.. just sayin...

Large contractors get some of the cream off the top of the quality range of stud grades. The HD and Lowe's consumer doesn't get to pick when buying one's and two'zies.

We have a local lumber yard that stocks better quality framing lumber but the price is higher per MBF than the Box stores. I shop local because I want to see them stay in business, although that has been rough with the down-turn in building.

Darrel · December 10, 2015, 10:16:34 PM

I was the planer an in a stud mill on the west coast in the days before electronic grading. In those days, the standard allowed for 10% to be below grade and the owner would get very upset with the grader if that 10% wasn't there. So I'm sure that management still has a way to make sure that they get their 10%.

Larch · December 10, 2015, 11:50:57 PM

Obviously this is just opinion but my experience is that if I went down to my lumber yard and got 2 and better framing lumber, the best they have (I'm not afraid to pay for good wood -- if I'm buying engineered lumber that says enough), they could give me a unit off the truck from the mill and I would be happy to see 3 out of every 10 pieces workable after two days being unstickered and out of the stack without having been used. They sell it slightly green so it looks nice and a day in the sun will ruin 4 out of 10 and 3 out of 10 will have been garbage to begin with.

Don't get me wrong. I couldn't deliver planed and kiln dried lumber at that price. And I still buy it. But what a joke.

beenthere · December 11, 2015, 12:23:37 AM

Larch
When I buy framing lumber, I bring it home and sticker it so that it can dry evenly on both faces.
Makes a world of difference in how straight the lumber ends up.

schmism · December 11, 2015, 02:16:23 AM

Quote from: DMcCoy on December 10, 2015, 08:14:48 AM

But STUD grade is very low, vertical use only -this surprised me, learned something new today.
http://www.wwpa.org/TECHGUIDE/Grades/tabid/849/Default.aspx

Intended use does not imply only use.

I know for a fact it is frequently used in trusses. Both tension and compression members. In addition its also an accepted grade for purlins (horizontal members frequently used on top of trusses). Again not a joist or rafter condition but not a "only vertical" use either.

While the included photos indicate a stud grade, MSR lumber (machine stress rated) is not graded visually and therefore can have any "look" to it as it pleases. (as long as it pasted the MSR rating its good)

beenthere · December 11, 2015, 02:52:06 AM

schmism
Interesting comments.
Do you have any pics of using stud grade in trusses? As well as purlins?

Some huge settlements in courts from falls due to workers walking on purlins that failed. Whoever does this should have some heavy liability insurance or some disclaimers that will hold up in court. Knot size allowed in a stud grade is pretty large.

And looked like some of the OP photo's were not 2x4 studs, so not sure if the grade stamps were specific to the end grain pics.

longtime lurker · December 11, 2015, 02:58:09 AM

Quote from: schmism on December 11, 2015, 02:16:23 AM
Quote from: DMcCoy on December 10, 2015, 08:14:48 AM

But STUD grade is very low, vertical use only -this surprised me, learned something new today.
http://www.wwpa.org/TECHGUIDE/Grades/tabid/849/Default.aspx

Intended use does not imply only use.

I know for a fact it is frequently used in trusses. Both tension and compression members. In addition its also an accepted grade for purlins (horizontal members frequently used on top of trusses). Again not a joist or rafter condition but not a "only vertical" use either.

While the included photos indicate a stud grade, MSR lumber (machine stress rated) is not graded visually and therefore can have any "look" to it as it pleases. (as long as it pasted the MSR rating its good)

This!!!

Here's the thing. It's graded (by either visual or machine is irrelevant) to meet a certain standard for a certain application. It's good for that grade at time of assesment/testing and thats all it has to be good for.

Grade a week or a month or a year later is beyond the control of the grader. Theres a whole lot of things that can happen to timber that meets grade post asessment that can change the grade - bad storage, insect attack, mechanical damage in transit - but that is beyond the graders purview.

The other thing is that useage for applications other then its graded for are beyond the control of the grader too. It's graded for studs... if someone chooses to use it for something other then studs then whos fault is that? If it fails as a truss then guess what - it aint the graders fault because it wasnt supposed to be used in a truss.

Both visual grading and machine testing are quite conservative: there is a pretty significant margin between the test/grade rule and the actual in service strength of a piece.

But when guys complain because they bought stud grade and it fails to be anything but stud grade... well its like the guy who buys a Volkswagen Beetle then complains that it can't do 200 mph. If you wanted a Ferrari you shoulda bought a Ferrari.

SwampDonkey · December 11, 2015, 05:32:17 AM

There's other shinnanigans to that have nothing to do with the mill. Often the local yards here bill for #1 lumber and it's clearly stamped otherwise. >:( Then the lumber still in it's wrapper opened to the elements to, like being in a bath tub. :

Ianab · December 11, 2015, 07:05:23 AM

Fair complaint if it DOESN'T meet the grade.

But in this case the grade is.. "If I use this in my house wall, will the wall fall down?"

The answer is no. Because although it's not a "good" board, it's in no danger of spontaneously breaking into pieces without more stress than any regular building should handle. It's still "fit for purpose"

Can't really blame the mills for the quality. If it was a better board, it would have gone into the #2 or #1 stack, and been sold for more $$. So any "good" board in there is really a mistake on the mills part.

Want better quality boards? They are over there in the #1 and #2 stacks, and priced accordingly.

DMcCoy · December 11, 2015, 07:24:17 AM

schmism- Good catch - "intended" not "only" correction duly noted.

Woodsmill1- ....easy
so much bad lumber per unit like so much junk in hotdogs -it will be there like MM stated. ;)
If you put chipmunks in the rat family where they belong my lumber has rat turds and hair on it.

Of the OP pictures only 1 had the official grade stamp the other just said 'Hampton Premium' which is just marketing. You don't know for sure it might be really good "stud grade" when compared to other stud grade, just like hotdogs. I personally like to pull my own lumber so I go to H depot or Lowes. I take about 50% of what I see if the unit is fresh.

Code is a 'minimum' standard, if it meets the minimum standard then it legally passes.

Dodgy Loner · December 11, 2015, 09:24:23 AM

Been a while since I took the relevant class in forestry school, but as I recall, in the U.S. framing lumber is required to meet an average strength to meet grade. In other words, you can get some pieces weaker than the target strength in a shipment, but as long as there are enough stronger pieces to make up for it - on average - the grading is still considered accurate. So that's how they get away with it.

I recall that New Zealand and Australia had different code standards that required every piece to meet the minimum standards for strength. But that was almost a decade ago when I learned this stuff so don't quote me on it

azmtnman · December 11, 2015, 10:01:41 AM

Quote from: beenthere on December 11, 2015, 02:52:06 AM
And looked like some of the OP photo's were not 2x4 studs, so not sure if the grade stamps were specific to the end grain pics.

Those pics are all one board. The knots are 2 different ones in that same board. I could break this board over my knee and it's marked "premium" by the company. I thought they deserved credit for that since this is not an unusual occurrence. ;D

beenthere · December 11, 2015, 10:22:25 AM

Quotein the U.S. framing lumber is required to meet an average strength to meet grade. In other words, you can get some pieces weaker than the target strength in a shipment, but as long as there are enough stronger pieces to make up for it - on average - the grading is still considered accurate. So that's how they get away with it.

I believe any allowable strength assignment is way more conservative than that "average" you recall.
Something to do with 5% exclusion limit in the bell curve and then strength is 1.5 times that limit. Very conservative.

But stud grade is a different animal than machine stress rated, IIRC.

Still the bottom line, is not expecting to use every piece in the pile for your framing project.. some final sorting is needed.

For some light reading about stress rated lumber, check out this link.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_07.pdf