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Opinion on damaged white oak.

Started by ohiowoodchuck, September 27, 2022, 11:34:07 AM

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ohiowoodchuck

Aep cut a road thru my property to access the transmission line. They skinned the bark off on a spot on this white oak with the dozer blade. I want your guys opinion of will the damage affect the value of the log when ready to harvest. I'll add the picture. 

 
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doc henderson

It may form a scar.  how many years to harvest.  nothing that cannot be worked around in the near future.  i assume the tree is standing and the bark injury is "above" the yellow tape.  you can rotate the pic by clicking the turn arrow before adding.  if you want to you can modify, take out this pic and re-post.  Or we can figure it out and tip our heads.   :)
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

barbender

Yes that will cause a scar that will drop the grade on that face of the log.
Too many irons in the fire

ohiowoodchuck

Sorry here is the picture turned the correct way. How would you guy approach this. My agreement says the pay for all damages including trees. They had there forester look at it and he said that longevity wise it will be fine. I would have to measure it to get a accurate size, but I couldn't get my arms around it to tie the tape. They agreed to pay for the other tree they destroyed, but not this one. 

 
Education is the best defense against the media.

beenthere

Probably best you will get, unless you hire someone to represent you and file a formal complaint. Put a value on what you expect the loss to be for the one tree lowered by one grade (as it is in one face of the four used to grad a log). You can estimate, using the Forum toolbox, what the bdft volume is of the butt log and find some prices per bdft by grade to compare what you would lose. Probably not much, but it would be a good exercise for you and this forum to see the results of your calculations. Likely they have their butt covered in their agreement with you. 
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

barbender

The tree will probably heal, but a scar like is also often the entry point for bacteria and fungus. I would lean on them to pay for that tree as well. It all kind of depends on the contract. On a timber sale, that would be frowned on but on the ones I've worked a scar isn't fineable unless it is a certain size that is spelled out in the contract. Now in intensely managed hardwood stands like @ehp works in, I suspect the forester would assess a hefty fine for damaging a prime reserve tree. So I guess what I'm saying is, it depends🤷‍♂️ But I would try to get payment for it. 
Too many irons in the fire

Southside

That looks like an otherwise pretty clean log, I see one shed limb above the damage.  Now if that's a 3 side clear log and the diameter is there you would be looking at a stave or potentially veneer log, that makes it worth a decent chunk of change.  If the damage drops the grade to a saw log that's a pretty decent hit and like BB said, I would push for them to pay for it.  Ask them if you go to their office and break a big window and a small window if you can get off with only paying for the smaller window and see what they say.  

I have had a couple of dealings with our local utility company when they damaged things, so they kind of knew who they were dealing with when one of their contracted crews ran over a pile of 6" aluminum irrigation pipe that was 3' from a sign that said "No vehicle access beyond this point".  The skid steer tracks told the story, even the part where the guy tried to use the skid as a "get away" vehicle.  They paid that time, oh they really paid, and didn't argue over a single cent.  I take that back, they didn't pay - they bought, bought, and bought some more, then they delivered, and stacked, so technically I didn't get paid.  You have nothing to loose by pushing the issue.   
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ehp

yes that is now a defect and will hurt the trees value . If tree is cut today then not so bad but a year or more from now it effects tree value. 

kantuckid

Small Claims court?  
The entire Appalachian region is full of trees that are old but damaged by years ago when livestock and woods fires were common. Just to say it still has longevity is offensive simplicity? 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

ohiowoodchuck

I kind of thought the same. I guess I'll hire my own forester to come and take a look. They just pay a certain price for stuff. I'll spend 400 to win 200 just to prove a point. I'll go get some measurements and better pics this weekend and post the results here and see what you guys think again. Thanks for the help. 
Education is the best defense against the media.

Ron Wenrich

For an opposing point of view.  If you can't reach your arm around it, then its above a 18" tree.  I found that on an 18" tree, I can reach my arms around and touch my fingers.  Your arms probably aren't the same, but it serves as an approximation.

If that tree was harvested now, there would be no monetary damage.  A scar will form, but how much damage will that scar have?  You'll have a dead spot from bugs and bacteria in the current sapwood.  In all likelihood, the heartwood behind that will be fine, even after the tree heals.  But, you could also seal that spot off and the bugs and bacteria won't have much effect to the health of the wood in that area.

From a milling standpoint, with proper positioning, that defect would have minimal effect.  The defect is removed through edging.  I've sawed logs with similar defect.  It doesn't run that far.  If you sawed right through it, it would only effect a couple of boards. 

The best you can do is to figure out if it is currently a veneer tree.  Most of the value of timber is in the butt log.  If there is a 10' veneer cut and the diameter inside bark is 20", you're looking at about 160 bf.  I'm not real sure of log value in your area, but if veneer is selling for $3/bf, the highest value would be $480.  I would buy that log as a #1, considering there isn't any other defect.  If prices for #1 in the area is $1, then the value is $160 and the differential is $320.  The rest of the tree's value would remain the same.

I haven't seen the tree close up and don't know the values in your area, but that is the only way you'll be able to prove damages.  Somebody else will have to zero in on valuation.  The problem you'll have is in the speculation of future damages.  Even in its current state, you can't tell if there is veneer value.  Once the tree is cut down, a log buyer will spray the end to see if glass worm is present.  If it is, there is no veneer value.  The log value would remain the same.  Lots of speculation that can be argued against. 
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moodnacreek

That damage may or may not bother the tree in the years to come but any deviation in the bark pattern will down grade a clear butt log. If that was hard maple you would want to cut it soon as it could rot in faster than the tree could grow.

beenthere

Quote from: ohiowoodchuck on September 28, 2022, 06:36:39 PM
I kind of thought the same. I guess I'll hire my own forester to come and take a look. They just pay a certain price for stuff. I'll spend 400 to win 200 just to prove a point. I'll go get some measurements and better pics this weekend and post the results here and see what you guys think again. Thanks for the help.
owc
What do you think you should get for that tree damage? 
If $200, then I'd suggest putting that in a claim letter to Aep (?) and send it to them. It will be a document that they can decide if they'll just pay it or ignore it. Ron Wenrich has it pretty well spelled out, IMO.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Scott

It doesn't appear that the damage cuts into the cambium of the tree so as to affect

it much. What kind of agreement did you have with the power company for an access road across your property, is it a legal right of way with tree damages defined? How severe was the damaged tree that they paid for in comparison to this one? Is there much difference in the tree damages?

However, this damage will alter any veneer value that the tree might have had, and it is tree damage no matter how slight. If you have concerns, have an impartial professional forester value the tree for its possible damage for any loss of value.

Send the power company a bill if justified with notice that any future access across your property will be denied. I would assume that they would want to keep good landowner relations if your damage assessment is not too far out of line requiring them to seek their own impartial forester for a rebuttal. 

~Ron

ohiowoodchuck

There is no spelled out easement or road they can use to get from the highway to the powerline easement. I just went up and measured the trees at the butts. I'll post some pictures and I also took a video of both trees. They want me to give them a price for both trees. I'm trying to do this without out having to spend 500.00 for a forester. I will if I have to but there not going to reimburse me for it. 
Education is the best defense against the media.

ohiowoodchuck

Education is the best defense against the media.

ohiowoodchuck

Education is the best defense against the media.

ohiowoodchuck

Here is a video of tree #1. If you guys could help me out with the grade of the tree I'd be happy. If I need to get a stick or if you tell me how I can get a height measurement for the board foot. I'd appreciate it. https://youtu.be/YpWFGQO2yKM
Education is the best defense against the media.

doc henderson

so the DBH is 18 and 22 inches.  i used to estimate height by leaning a pole from my bull float know to be 18 feet for three sections against the tree.  you can stand back and see if the tree is 2 or 3 or 4 times the height.  but also if you are wanting saw logs, you can use it as a reference for the lumber bd. feet based on the saw log length estimate.  there are some trig. do dads that I am sure work, but are also and estimate.  
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

doc henderson

in fact, if you told us the height of the yellow tape on the tree and took a pic from a distance, you could use calipers on a printed pic to estimate height of the tree, or length of the log to be.  I watched the video and we need a straight on shot of the length you are interested in knowing.  then plug it into the calculator.  
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

doc henderson

so if the fist log was 10 feet long and 18 inches inside the bark at the small end, then 123 Doyle, 135 Scribner or 145 international
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

ohiowoodchuck

Education is the best defense against the media.

ohiowoodchuck

I took the videos so I could get a accurate idea of the grade of the logs. If there is a way to get the height of the useable footage in each tree I would be happy to go back up and get any measurement you guys need to help me out. I don't have no height stick but I can order one if needed. I appreciate any and all help. 
Education is the best defense against the media.

doc henderson

about 17 cubic feet and 1,130 pounds for the 18 inch 10 foot theoretical log.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

ohiowoodchuck

Thanks Doc, any idea on the grade of the logs. 
Education is the best defense against the media.

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