Upgrades & More Equipment

boonesyard · March 23, 2023, 12:09:05 PM

We've been providing some custom doors and flooring that a few customers have been very happy with. Word of mouth gets around and wham bam! I'm not very good at saying no and ended up with a couple large orders for new homes. I was using a router table with a power feeder for the T&G stuff and a Supermax 25-50 drum sander. It all worked well for the small orders I was dealing with, but things needed to change for the quantities I was going to tackle, so justification for new equipment!

Timing is everything, and I was fortunate in that a good customer of mine had a very lightly used Grizzly G0819 15" belt sander and just upgraded to a larger wide belt sander. We made a good deal for both of us, and it's now in my shop

. This thing is wonderful for the narrow stock I deal with, the finish and speed are excellent. The Supermax 25-50 is a very good drum sander, but this belt sander is just a whole different thing.

I new I needed to get some relief cuts in the back of the flooring for for the wide profiles we were going to provide and I've been looking at molders for some time. There's some great 4 sided options out there, but I just didn't want to commit to the $$$'s. I visited with Woodmaster (great people there) and came up with a compromise that works well. Ended up with a 721 system with the C2 molder head and router setup for 3-sided molding.

Lots of cords and power circuits and hoses needed for dust collection, molder head, feed rollers and the routers but we got-er-done. Took some time to set up, but with the stock thickness established, the 3-sided single pass did a nice job.

Also upgrading our 22" Powermatic straight knife planer to a Byrd shelix head, should be here in April. Really looking forward to this upgrade. The changes should help a bunch.

If anyone has any tips or tricks for the 721 molding set-up, I'm all ears, or I guess eyes.

Mattjohndeere2 · March 23, 2023, 01:21:23 PM

That's awesome. Nice machines!!!

What do the relief cuts on the back side of the flooring do? I see you did lots of small reliefs, I've seen other flooring with just a wide flat relief cut?

blackhawk · March 23, 2023, 02:36:24 PM

My goto source for Woodmaster molding knives is http://moldingknives.com/ Craig is the owner and he is great to work with. I've bought all my knives from him over the past 10 years. He is super quick and less expensive than buying direct from Woodmaster.

I don't have the C2 head but use a spare planer head with the 3 slots. Whenever I setup more than one knife, I use a dial indicator to align all the knives. I rarely use more than one knife though. For short runs, which is what I mostly do, a single knife at slower speeds still produces a great finish. Craig can set you up with a balance kit whenever you want to only run one knife.

Larry · March 23, 2023, 03:28:02 PM

I bought that sander a couple of years ago. Much better than any drum sander. It would be perfect if it had 10 HP under the hood. I've been buying belts from Maverick Abrasives The Zirconia belts last forever, wish they made some with a little finer grit.

Long time ago I ran lots of moulding on the Granddaddy of Woodmaster, the Belsaw. At that time the only head was the planer head with three slots. To do moulding a knife went in one slot and counterweights in the other two. I was amazed at the quality I could get using only one knife.

At one time I had three of the machines as they were cheap on craigslist. Kept one sat up with a casing knife on one side and a back relief on the other side.

I found I could sell lots of short run mouldings to folks restoring old houses that were missing a few feet of moulding. I had a knife grinding place that I could fax a drawing to before noon and have a knife in hand the next day. I also learned how to grind my own knives.

I think you will be pleased with your WM making moulding.

barbender · March 23, 2023, 04:57:32 PM

The relief cuts on the back help to reduce cup and bow across the width of the plank.

I had some flooring planed by a guy, and he used the wide casing relief on the back. It was afraid that would be a bad idea and I was right. You have a piece of 4, 5, or 6" wide flooring with no support in the middle of it, it's going to give when you step on it. And it does. It also bowed and cupped🤦 The casing relief cut is to make sure the outside edges are always in contact, with casing trim.

boonesyard · March 23, 2023, 09:59:51 PM

Blackhawk, thanks for the tip on the knife supplier.

Larry, thanks for the tip on abrasives.

Mattjohndeere2 · March 24, 2023, 07:58:15 AM

Quote from: barbender on March 23, 2023, 04:57:32 PM
The relief cuts on the back help to reduce cup and bow across the width of the plank.

I had some flooring planed by a guy, and he used the wide casing relief on the back. It was afraid that would be a bad idea and I was right. You have a piece of 4, 5, or 6" wide flooring with no support in the middle of it, it's going to give when you step on it. And it does. It also bowed and cupped🤦 The casing relief cut is to make sure the outside edges are always in contact, with casing trim.

Copy that, thanks for the explanation.

trimguy · March 24, 2023, 10:27:05 AM

Nice machine. All of the flooring that I have installed had radius relief cuts in the back. If I was to put relief cuts in the back of some flooring with a tablesaw would the square edge relief cuts cause a problem ?

boonesyard · March 24, 2023, 03:37:50 PM

Quote from: trimguy on March 24, 2023, 10:27:05 AM
Nice machine. All of the flooring that I have installed had radius relief cuts in the back. If I was to put relief cuts in the back of some flooring with a tablesaw would the square edge relief cuts cause a problem ?

I don't think so.

tmbrcruiser · March 25, 2023, 08:07:40 AM

I have a mill and a small shop where I make custom flooring from time to time. My question is how many passes does it take for your finished flooring? I found a used Weinig 5 spindle moulder and it changed my world.

trimguy · March 25, 2023, 11:58:07 AM

I haven't actually made any yet. But
- 2-3 thru a one sided planer
- straight line with a track saw
- rip to width on the table saw
- thru shaper for the groove
- thru different shaper for tongue
- thru table saw for relief cuts
( depends on width )
Wow , that sounds like a lot of work.
I'm just a hobby guy and this is for personal use. My wife wants denim pine flooring in a cabin we are working on. I guess I better get busy if I'm going to take it north in May.

trimguy · March 25, 2023, 02:55:43 PM

Also, if your making flooring with a shaper , like I am above, do you run it thru the shaper face up or face down ?

Larry · March 25, 2023, 05:09:29 PM

I've made some flooring similar to what you described except I cut the back relief on the Belsaw, Williams & Hussey, or the shaper. Shaper was by far the fastest method. After a while I decided I did not like making flooring at all....referred out the last job I was offered.

I ran the flooring through the shaper face down as I thought it might make it more accurately. In reality I don't think it makes any difference. I did climb cut most of it with a power feeder running pretty fast, seems like 40-50 fpm.

firefighter ontheside · March 25, 2023, 10:42:27 PM

That's interesting that you say you climb cut it. I used a Jet shaper to make my flooring and I thought the forward and backward indicators were backwards on the front. Was I supposed to be climb cutting with it? I ran it all like I would at my router table and I used a power feeder. Is it ok to climb cut with a feeder?

tmbrcruiser · March 26, 2023, 04:07:17 AM

Good luck with your project, making flooring for yourself may justify the time. One thing for sure you will always look upon the the floor with pride and memories of the hard work. Please share pictures.

Larry · March 26, 2023, 01:51:40 PM

Quote from: firefighter ontheside on March 25, 2023, 10:42:27 PM
Is it ok to climb cut with a feeder?

Yes, the only safe way to climb cut.

Either way is ok, just depends on the wood. If you have lots of knots conventional cutting can pull the knots out, especially with ERC. If the wood is too dry or splintery you can often get a better cut climb cutting.

teakwood · March 27, 2023, 12:45:42 AM

What's climb cutting??

beenthere · March 27, 2023, 01:23:03 AM

Climb cutting is where the cutters (knives, saw teeth, etc) are grabbing at the piece and drawing it in. Can be very dangerous if not holding the wood to resist being grabbed.
This video discusses the method.
Mastering the MOST DANGEROUS Cut in Woodworking / Climb Cutting on a Router Table - YouTube

Ianab · March 27, 2023, 03:17:07 AM

Yeah, climb cutting can actually give a better finish, but there is a tendency for the cutter to "grab", and then throw the work piece in random direction, or pull your hand into the cutter. If the board is held down by some serious feed rollers, then risk is low.

You have to watch for it with a swing blade mill because if you get distracted and enter the log without swinging the blade it will be climb cutting. Usual result is a jam and smoke from the clutch / drive belts until you hit the e-stop. Don't ask me how I know this. :-\

teakwood · March 27, 2023, 07:52:25 AM

I get it now, just wasn't aware of the thermology.

when i made furnitures i had to sometimes made a climb cut on the spindle shaper, that is very dangerous.

boonesyard · March 27, 2023, 11:49:29 AM

Larry is spot on. Highly figured or knotty wood can benefit from the climb cutting approach, but you've really got to have your head in the game when tackling it.

The best way, and now only way I'll do it on the router table is with the power feeder. Even with this method, making sure you've got good downward pressure, pressure against the fence and clean/sticky feed rollers are important. Even then, I'm careful when using big bits and will use multiple passes. Can make a very nice finish when handled correctly, but there is no middle ground. Mishandling can be disastrous.