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Author Topic: please help...hire orester or not?  (Read 5510 times)

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Offline ehp

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #180 on: June 18, 2021, 02:25:28 PM »
Rank , you better check those tax laws again , I know more than a few that put money in kids names thinking they were getting around paying money and the answer is NO

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #181 on: June 18, 2021, 07:13:48 PM »
Rank , you better check those tax laws again , I know more than a few that put money in kids names thinking they were getting around paying money and the answer is NO
I believe the tax law reads that, if employed, they need to be collecting a reasonable wage for the work being done.  Alternatively, they could also run their own business and not choose to be employed at all.  The kids are 16 yrs and 12 yrs.  I suppose if they weren't actually doing the work there would be a problem.  What's next in this country, criminalizing lemonade stands and car washes?

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #182 on: June 18, 2021, 07:16:04 PM »
my kids are keeping my earnings below the taxable limit too!  :D
HA! Exactly, they're going to get it one way or the other so I say they should earn it.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #183 on: June 18, 2021, 09:22:47 PM »
Maybe I should start another thread for this but you guys already know what I want to do so I'll try this first.  If I decide to pick away at this cull/select cut job myself, what should I use for a skidder?  I'm thinking something that utilizes a 3PH on one of my smaller tractors.....a 8,000 lb winch off an old tow truck?  Tractor is 100 hp x 7.5 feet wide x 10,000 lbs + 1,000 lbs of weights hanging on the front.  Flat ground.

Offline Andries

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #184 on: June 18, 2021, 10:31:20 PM »
I'd fit up a grapple on the FEL of that tractor.
Wallenstein just North of you makes very good forestry winches for three point hitches.
Use one that has a receiver hitch in it, and use it to pull a four wheel farm wagon with stake pockets on the rub rails.
Set up skidder trails that are tractor/wagon friendly and spaced so that they are separated by twice the length of your winch cable.
A couple of landings are where you park your wagon - fill it with your cuttings using the grapple after you skid them out of the woods between the trails.
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Offline Southside

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #185 on: June 18, 2021, 10:42:20 PM »
Ever try to disc a field with a skidder?  They can pull like nobodys business, but they make horrible row crop machines.  Likewise farm tractors and logging don't mix well.  Lots of hazards jumping up from the ground, and more coming from the sky that John Deere Sound Guard cabs never planned for.  You think BT corn is tough on tires?  You ain't seen nothing compared to what the woods will do to them.  Plastic saddle fuel tank?  Oopsie!!

Can it be done with a tractor?  Of course.  Would it be money well spent to find and old Timber Jack for $15K that you can sell for $15K when you are done with it?  In my opinion yes.  You can use your tractor and loader on a nice, flat, landing to load logs and it won't get beat up and let the actual skidder do the woods work.  
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Online mike_belben

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #186 on: June 18, 2021, 10:52:59 PM »
A genuine 3 point pto winch with a nice easy freewheel, a high pulley, and a load holding brake.

Dont get a setup where you have to winch in then switch the chokers to hooks on your attachment.  You want to skid the whole wack on the mainline using sliders and chokers. 

Dont graft on a hydraulic winch, and especially not an electric. And dont fall for some monsterous braden salvage crane unit with no freewheel so that you have to power the cable out every time.  


A skidder is obviously the right tool for the job if u have then means. Dozers are too slow unless youre in very steep or swampy. 
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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #187 on: June 19, 2021, 12:57:53 AM »
A genuine 3 point pto winch with a nice easy freewheel, a high pulley, and a load holding brake.
Wallenstein just North of you makes very good forestry winches for three point hitches.

I saw one of those on my neighbor's tractor and always wondered what it was now I know lol  Thanks for the idea

Offline thecfarm

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #188 on: June 19, 2021, 05:34:48 AM »
How much time you got?
Them mills wants the logs fresh. They don't want the logs sitting around for 2 months. I have done what you want. Takes A LOT of time to cut wood. Do you have a 40 hour job? You won't be seeing the wife and kids much if you do. Now you can drop the trees and take the logs and do good. But I always cleaned up the small stuff, meaning pulp and any trees that I knocked down too.
Than you need to know the market, or someone that does. 
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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #189 on: June 19, 2021, 09:43:54 AM »
How much time you got?
Them mills wants the logs fresh. They don't want the logs sitting around for 2 months. I have done what you want. Takes A LOT of time to cut wood. Do you have a 40 hour job? You won't be seeing the wife and kids much if you do. Now you can drop the trees and take the logs and do good. But I always cleaned up the small stuff, meaning pulp and any trees that I knocked down too.
Than you need to know the market, or someone that does.
The culls are less time sensitive.

>Do you have a 40 hour job?
Now that's funny.  Closer to 80 than 40.  Sometimes the winters are less.  Sometimes not.
>Them mills wants the logs fresh. They don't want the logs sitting around for 2 months.
Yeah I have a tendency to bite off more than I can chew.  A 7000 bdft load of ash would be about 25 trees....4 trees a day....I'd guess I could do that in a week if I made the time.  Clean up and processing the tops would take forever.
It might make sense to pay a careful logger to log the veneer (if he doesn't mark the standing tress all up) but the firewood culls I doubt makes economic sense. I have skidded logs out with a tractor, a rope and pulleys where I couldn't get a straight pull before....no winch....rig....drive ahead...rig again....drive ahead....rig again.  To heck with that.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #190 on: July 03, 2021, 10:50:33 PM »
The Forester's came and marked what they thought should be taken without letting in too much light.  Heavy on the ash before the borer takes them.   Here's the tally from this ~22 ac parcel:

Red oak grade 1        79 trees   16,021 bfdt
Red oak grade 2        26 trees     4,916 bdft
Hard maple grade 1   24 trees     4,644 bdft
Hard maple grade 2   31 trees     5,799 bdft
White ash                118 trees   22,599 bdft
Basswood                    2 trees       374 bdft

TOTAL                      280 trees   54,353 bdft

*definition of grade 1 is a tree that should yield at least one veneer log




Online stavebuyer

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #191 on: July 04, 2021, 04:42:26 AM »
rank Thank you for the update.

A couple of questions; Did the Forester provide you with any valuation estimate? How many trees "marked" by the logger ended up being retained as "leave trees" by the Forester?

 

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #192 on: July 04, 2021, 11:06:11 AM »
rank Thank you for the update.

A couple of questions; Did the Forester provide you with any valuation estimate? How many trees "marked" by the logger ended up being retained as "leave trees" by the Forester?

 
No I didn't get a valuation estimate.  Unfortunately I am left to translate the Forester's definition of grade 1 and grade 2 into Amex's grading system of Prime, select etc.  This is basically a poorly educated guess by me and in the end, I assumed that none of my saw logs will grade higher than #1.  I assume this because most of the maples are tapped and many of the oak butt logs have mysterious creases/splits in them on one side from many years ago that have healed over but will probably be a defect.

Using the Amex price list an assuming none of my saw logs go better than grade #1, I estimate ~10,000 bdft of veneer worth $13,000 and 44,000 bdft of saw logs worth $38,000 for a total of $51,000 CDN.

The Logger and the Forester marked many of the same trees....let's say 60%.  They said the Logger marked more trees than they did....that is to say he marked more than 280.

I had a 2nd Logger come in and look at what the Foresters marked.   He said he would pay me 50% of the veneer value and 33% of saw log value.  Based on my guestimates above, that equals $20,000 to me for 54,000 bdft.......$360/mbdft.  He would get ~$32,000 for the logging work.  He's a one man show I think....said it would take him a couple months.....that's 7 trees a day for 40 days and $115/tree in dollar terms.

Online chep

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #193 on: July 04, 2021, 02:18:40 PM »
Prices and volumes for Logger 2 seem very reasonable to me. Sounds like he takes his time and that's a good thing for your forest

Online stavebuyer

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #194 on: July 04, 2021, 08:07:54 PM »
Sometimes terminology can get confusing. True "veneer" ie 4 sides clear logs with no apparent defects which is destined to be sliced or peeled seldom makes a large percentage of any sale. Also to meet most buyers top saw log price you usually must have a minimum scaling diameter(typically 18").

Looking at your figures from 500-600 miles south I thought the initial logger was inflating the price per foot. I also thought you were being unrealistic to expect a $1 or more on the stump for a properly marked sale(non high grade)

Appalachian pricing generally is a little behind the Northern market; especially on Hard Maple and Cherry. Easy to log timber here would none the less seldom bring less than 50% of mill pricing if cut on shares and good tracts would net the landowner 60%. 

Solicit sealed bids and retain the right to reject them.


Offline ehp

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #195 on: July 04, 2021, 10:18:05 PM »
your loggers are paying quite abit less than around here , most it works out to be around the 60% to 70% to land owner on logs

Online BargeMonkey

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #196 on: July 04, 2021, 10:30:52 PM »
your loggers are paying quite abit less than around here , most it works out to be around the 60% to 70% to land owner on logs
ED I got the call today from the buyer, couple weeks and its going the other way again, get it out as fast as i can, thats on good sawlogs and everything except GOOD HM. Hickory is shut right off, SM is going to crash.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #197 on: July 05, 2021, 12:45:29 AM »
 laundry-smiley 

Sounds like loggers are gonna get hung out to dry already if thats the case.  Yet itll probably take years for retail lumber to come back to sanity




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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #198 on: July 05, 2021, 08:30:42 AM »
ED I got the call today from the buyer, couple weeks and its going the other way again, get it out as fast as i can, thats on good sawlogs and everything except GOOD HM. Hickory is shut right off, SM is going to crash.
Maybe that's why I haven't heard from Logger 1 in over a week.



Offline Big_eddy

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #199 on: July 05, 2021, 12:40:50 PM »
Rank

I've just now read the entire thread and a few thoughts come to mind. I'm northeast of Belleville so not too far away from you.

EHP / Mike/ Stavebuyer and the others are giving you good advice. Listen to them. They have no dog in this hunt, so they are on your side and your side alone.

Tell logger 1 to take a hike. He came to you with an opportunistic lowball offer and has been backpedaling ever since. His "ready to harvest again in 15 years" is pure and utter pulp.

I suggest you look up and consider joining the Ontario Woodlot Association. Lot's of good member in this area and good inputs to be had from property owners like you who are not desperate for cash, but want to plan for a sustainable harvest now and again in the future.

I agree 100% on your 15 acre parcel. It does not sound ready to harvest again.

Seriously look at being more aggressive on your ash. My 75 acres has little to no ash borer signs, but I have ash trees dying all around me - as little as 1/4 mile away. 5 miles away, EVERY ash is dead. You may have a year or two, but not much longer. PEC council had a presentation just the other week about the impact of the EAB on forests in the county. 80% of the firewood logs my logger is bringing us these days are ash - landowners around here are cutting most or all while there is still some value left in them.


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