please help...hire forester or not?

[mike_belben]

He might be great. None of us can know without looking at before and after. All we can do is make assumptions from here.   

Heck he might even be a FF member.   I trust that you are a wise enough steward to handle this pretty well with or without a forestor.  There is nothing wrong with not reaping every possible dollar but getting a really good job done. Best price AND best practice are certainly good goals.  


Youre right to see it as a crop.  A pine plantation is like a corn field while a native forest is more like a crowded garden.  Theres relationships and interactions and competititons between everything under the sun.  

If you want really tall skinny clover youd interseed together with a tall straight fast growing crop so it has no choice but to stand tall or die.  Oaks together with poplar is that sort of relationship.  Dense poplar wont allow an oak to stay short and live.  

[mudfarmer]

One thing the Logger said that I can't figure...."A Forester will ruin your woods".  In what ways can a Forester ruin a woodlot?

However, when I toured a woodlot he cut two years ago, it was obvious he left many nice straight trees standing that were larger than 18".  Why he did that I don't know yet.  Perhaps he didn't want the species.

You are likely closer to the answer than you think. A lot of forest parcels around here you can tell approximately when they were harvested based on the age and species distribution of current trees vs historic market prices and demand, without looking at stumps trails etc. A lot of these folks could probably tell me when some of the nearby Mills closed without any historical knowledge of the area.

[rank]

I spoke to a 3rd reference today.  This fellow is another farmer that's dealt with the Logger on three cuts since 1984.  He's hired Foresters on two different occasions early on when he was like me....he knew he wanted to treat his woodlot like a sustainable crop but didn't know how.  First experience with the Forester was an excellent one.   He made good money and the junior trees "exploded" after some big ones were taken.

2nd Forester was a bust.  They selected trees not based on "basal area" (whatever that is) with a goal of allowing sunlight in.  There was no market for the trees that were marked.  He paid the Forester $3500 and the highest tender was $4000 so he elected to do nothing.

Now he knows a lot more about the process.  He doesn't use Foresters anymore and trusts the Logger.  I'm paraphrasing him but this is what he told me......"this is a multi generational logging family and they take multiple harvests from the same wood lots over several decades.  They need a quality product for their buyers and they can't stay in business long term if they screw the land owners and ruin the wood lots".

The Logger marked my woodlots today.  We meet tomorrow to see what he marked.
The Forester visits Fri-Sat

[Skeans1]

Basal area is off a triangle with a set number you're looking for, another way to thin is a set tree count per acre. When I thin hardwoods I shoot for around two to two and half open sides with the first coming out being the dead/diseased, then select the ugly. I've been in fights with foresters over this practice because they're loosing money if you're not making saw logs either.

[stavebuyer]

I spoke to a 3rd reference today.  This fellow is another farmer that's dealt with the Logger on three cuts since 1984.  He's hired Foresters on two different occasions early on when he was like me....he knew he wanted to treat his woodlot like a sustainable crop but didn't know how.  First experience with the Forester was an excellent one.   He made good money and the junior trees "exploded" after some big ones were taken.

2nd Forester was a bust.  They selected trees not based on "basal area" (whatever that is) with a goal of allowing sunlight in.  There was no market for the trees that were marked.  He paid the Forester $3500 and the highest tender was $4000 so he elected to do nothing.

Now he knows a lot more about the process.  He doesn't use Foresters anymore and trusts the Logger.  I'm paraphrasing him but this is what he told me......"this is a multi generational logging family and they take multiple harvests from the same wood lots over several decades.  They need a quality product for their buyers and they can't stay in business long term if they screw the land owners and ruin the wood lots".

The Logger marked my woodlots today.  We meet tomorrow to see what he marked.
The Forester visits Fri-Sat

Farmer #3 might be a fine fellow but not whose advice I would follow regarding forest management. Quite likely the stand was not ready for harvest at round two but may have benefitted from some paid TSI. He hired a professional whose stated goal was allowing in light to promote regeneration. Forester 2 gets the blame when in reality he could have been trying to correct an under-harvest in sale #1. Most likely not following through cost the landowner a good bit of regrowth and regeneration of growing stock for potential sale #4 in addition to the $3500 cash wasted. The crooked Beech marked 20 years ago are still worthless.

[Ianab]

I thought I was doing the right thing by letting nature take it's course and taking only the fallen trees for firewood but now I see there is room for improvement.

That's not a "wrong" management policy. The forest will do it's own natural thing and change it's character over time if simply left alone. It will still be a forest, just it might not end up how you hoped. 

Any harvesting or management changes things about how the forest develops. You can manage for short term profit, or long term profit, or wildlife, or aesthetics, or conservation, or any combination. But the thing is you need that plan and an understanding of how your particular forest develops over time. If I do this now, then it will have that effect...  And there is no "One size fits all" model. Climate / soil / local species / what stage you are starting from, all change what's gong to happen in that forest. That sort of complex interaction is why Forestry is a Degree course, coupled with local experience. 

Again I'm not knocking the logger, he's probably honest and fully competent as a logger. But a logger might look at an 18" tree and say, "Yup, that's worth $100, we take that one". Forester looks at the same tree, and says, "Leave that and it will be a $1,000 veneer log in 20 years. Take out those crap trees that are shading it."  See where the conflict sets in?

Do you need $100 now to pay your bills, or leave a $1,000 tree for your kids? Neither answer is "wrong" 

[Jeff]

Always treat northern hardwoods like an investment. Collect the interest, don't deplete the principal unless you are ready to close the account

[rank]

Well......

I walked another 15 acre parcel today that he painted. This hardwood bush was logged pretty hard I'm guessing ~30 years ago by the previous landowner and has never been a sugar bush.  The landowner was a cheap old coot and this looks like he did a liquidation cut.  I counted 79 painted trees measuring 15"-24" DBH x 25'-35' of usable stem.  His offer for this was/is $6000.  I think one of us counted wrong .

This parcel is a disaster I would say.  Lots of space with nothing but 4 ft high twigs.  Someone must have taken everything over 6" dia 30 years ago.  I have no explanation for why there hasn't been more regrowth,  Maybe the Foresters can figure it out.  It's a *DanG shame.

[mike_belben]

Without knowing species and quality of the marked trees its hard to make heads or tails of the offer.  Could be great or an insult.

[rank]

Without knowing species and quality of the marked trees its hard to make heads or tails of the offer.  Could be great or an insult.

red oak, white oak and hard maple

[Plankton]

Sounds like that 15 acre patch should be mowed and let start again. Hard to tell without being there.

With your cut I would get a tally from a forester or the logger etc.. have the stumps painted and get a copy of the mill slips if your not going to do it through a forester. Without knowing him or seeing his work he could be and excellent logger looking out for future harvest and the landowner or he could be taking you for a ride.

[barbender]

I don't care how good of a logger he is (and I am one😁) there is often just not enough incentive monetarily to "do what is right for the forest". We see it all the time where people have poor quality wood that needs help. The wood is not worth much or anything, or your just not going to get anything out. So how are you going to pay for the forestry machines that run at $150/hour? It's a rare landowner who is willing to actually pay to have their woodlot improved. They'll pay big money for mulching/grinding and food plot work, but when trees start coming down they're worth money and they expect to be paid for it. So I guess you could say I see both sides of this, and I certainly don't want to make this logger's motivation seem suspect. I can just guarantee that his motivation at the end of the day is to make money or he wouldn't be in business. In light of that, I feel confident that what he is going to take is not what would be best for the future of your forest. It may be a compromise between what is best and what is profitable. The bottom line is you need to decide what you want out of your forest, and if you are willing to take a lot less money, or even none, to get it there. It sounds like your timber is of a quality high enough that just taking full trees should be profitable, but I don't know your area or markets. 

[mike_belben]

The old saying goes that if you want a job done right youd better do it yourself.  If you can farm, you can probably log too.  Many here are both. 

If its something youd consider doing, jump on it fast. The money is good and you can presently sell your UGLY trees while keeping your diamonds on the stump to ripen even more.  Good timber will sell in any market but right now trash can be sold.  Since youd have no logger share to pay youd pocket all of it and do fine.   And obviously youd end up with the exact results you want with no fuss or sellers remorse.  


Just something to consider.  If youve got a CDL and truck/ trailer thats a huge leap forward.  I presume you have a decent saw and tractor.  

[Southside]

Funny- because what Mike says is exactly why I got into logging.  There was never a desire to do so, rather it was clear that an opportunity to come out financially better, and achieve the goals I wanted on my own ground were only available if I did it myself.   Not going to say it was easy, made some mistakes along the way, then somehow it morphed into a sawmill operation and now I have more quality timber on my ground than when I started.  

[mike_belben]

Same here.  Extension forestor said my woodlot was junk needing a 70% haircut.  Well.. Turns out everyone else's little woodlot is highgraded junk too and no one is in the woodlot fixit business.  now im trying to make the economics of repairing highgrades work. 

[BargeMonkey]

 The problen I see with this is like 99% of the private jobs I encounter, the landowner wants the most money possible BUT the best possible situation for the woodlot, sometimes those 2 things don't mix. TSI or "Timber stand improvement" work is literally rare here or paid for, if you see a logger show up in a pickup with a chainsaw and a cable skidder throw that idea out the window, this is about cutting good wood and moving, dont confuse the 2 things. I agree with paying a forester sometimes, but like you've said this guy "or company" has been vetted and isn't fly by night. Honestly even from a logger stand point i wouldn't sell wood flat out, sell off % scaled on the landing, it keeps things honest and simple. Ive had landowners literally ride in the log truck, watch the logs dropped off at the mill and watch the check get cut, seen this play out. Right now wood is up, wait 6 months and it maybe a diff circumstance 🤷‍♂️. 

[Ed_K]

 Can someone try an figure out how much $$ per bf with what numbers have been given? I guessed an average of 45k. Would that = to a little over $.13 bf?

[stavebuyer]

Well......

I walked another 15 acre parcel today that he painted. This hardwood bush was logged pretty hard I'm guessing ~30 years ago by the previous landowner and has never been a sugar bush.  The landowner was a cheap old coot and this looks like he did a liquidation cut.  I counted 79 painted trees measuring 15"-24" DBH x 25'-35' of usable stem.  His offer for this was/is $6000.  I think one of us counted wrong .

This parcel is a disaster I would say.  Lots of space with nothing but 4 ft high twigs.  Someone must have taken everything over 6" dia 30 years ago.  I have no explanation for why there hasn't been more regrowth,  Maybe the Foresters can figure it out.  It's a *DanG shame.

Typical result of a "high grade". Selecting the cash trees looks really good at the time. Typically the conversation runs like this:
Logger: "We only cut the trees ready for harvest so in 15 years we can do it again"
Landowner " I got paid $400/tree and the woods looks about the same; in 15 years I will call the guy back and cut it again"
Reality: The logger does a neat and tidy job. In and out fast and cleans up his landing. Everybody is all smiles. In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond. If they do its often with epicormic branches that ruin the log grade and value. You start looking close after the tops are rotted away and you see the little bark patches missing where the skidder tire, cable, or tree length logs bumped it. Woods looks like a park but the larger diameter trees almost all either damaged, hollow, deformed, or low value species. Most of the desirable species will either be suppressed, deformed, or show subtle signs of logging damage from when their cohorts were cut.
Agree that there is little to no incentive for a logger to run around fixing past greed. Two common answers are to clear cut it and let nature fix it or take the job on yourself a firewood tree at a time. The mid story is no problem. The big ugly hollow stuff is dangerous and can do a lot of damage coming down. Often times marked culls are left standing even when marked and included in the sale as they are just a cost to the logger to fell. A good forester will include contract terms that all marked trees must be felled.

[rank]

Can someone try an figure out how much $$ per bf with what numbers have been given? I guessed an average of 45k. Would that = to a little over $.13 bf?

I tried but had a difficult time finding a chart that converts dia x height to bdft of STANDING trees.  anywhere from 12,000 to 17,000 bdft in 79 trees and he's offering $6,000 for that.  That does not compute for me. 

[stavebuyer]

DBH tables

18-20" DBH  form class 78 trees with 24'-32' merchantable height will come in at around 200 bd/tree depending on the scale being used.

80 trees @ 200'+/- 16000ft or .375 on the stump in this example. 

I generally wouldn't buy a job for crew to cut that didn't run at least 3000/ft acre.

[rank]

Well......

I walked another 15 acre parcel today that he painted. This hardwood bush was logged pretty hard I'm guessing ~30 years ago by the previous landowner and has never been a sugar bush.  The landowner was a cheap old coot and this looks like he did a liquidation cut.  I counted 79 painted trees measuring 15"-24" DBH x 25'-35' of usable stem.  His offer for this was/is $6000.  I think one of us counted wrong .

This parcel is a disaster I would say.  Lots of space with nothing but 4 ft high twigs.  Someone must have taken everything over 6" dia 30 years ago.  I have no explanation for why there hasn't been more regrowth,  Maybe the Foresters can figure it out.  It's a *DanG shame.

Typical result of a "high grade". Selecting the cash trees looks really good at the time. Typically the conversation runs like this:
Logger: "We only cut the trees ready for harvest so in 15 years we can do it again"
Landowner " I got paid $400/tree and the woods looks about the same; in 15 years I will call the guy back and cut it again"
Reality: The logger does a neat and tidy job. In and out fast and cleans up his landing. Everybody is all smiles. In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond. If they do its often with epicormic branches that ruin the log grade and value. You start looking close after the tops are rotted away and you see the little bark patches missing where the skidder tire, cable, or tree length logs bumped it. Woods looks like a park but the larger diameter trees almost all either damaged, hollow, deformed, or low value species. Most of the desirable species will either be suppressed, deformed, or show subtle signs of logging damage from when their cohorts were cut.
Agree that there is little to no incentive for a logger to run around fixing past greed. Two common answers are to clear cut it and let nature fix it or take the job on yourself a firewood tree at a time. The mid story is no problem. The big ugly hollow stuff is dangerous and can do a lot of damage coming down. Often times marked culls are left standing even when marked and included in the sale as they are just a cost to the logger to fell. A good forester will include contract terms that all marked trees must be felled.

Yep....the mature trees in this high graded bush are 50-60 ft tall I would guess and spaced 20-60 ft apart.  Canopy completely filled in forest floor completely shaded.

[rank]

Honestly even from a logger stand point i wouldn't sell wood flat out, sell off % scaled on the landing, it keeps things honest and simple. Ive had landowners literally ride in the log truck, watch the logs dropped off at the mill and watch the check get cut, seen this play out. Right now wood is up, wait 6 months and it maybe a diff circumstance 🤷‍♂️.

I talked to a Forester yesterday that recommended selling a % of mill scale.  He said veneer logs are going for $2300/MBFT picked up at the landing. I think I have decided whatever happens I will sell by weight.  And not by the mill's weight either.  I will run the trucks across the grain elevator scale in town the same way I scale my grain.  I know enough to know that mill weights scales are never in the seller's favor.

[rank]

The old saying goes that if you want a job done right youd better do it yourself.  If you can farm, you can probably log too.  Many here are both.

If its something youd consider doing, jump on it fast. The money is good and you can presently sell your UGLY trees while keeping your diamonds on the stump to ripen even more.  Good timber will sell in any market but right now trash can be sold.  Since youd have no logger share to pay youd pocket all of it and do fine.   And obviously youd end up with the exact results you want with no fuss or sellers remorse.  


Just something to consider.  If youve got a CDL and truck/ trailer thats a huge leap forward.  I presume you have a decent saw and tractor.  

I have 5 saws, 18 farm tractors, 3 highway tractors, 4 flatbed trailers with stake pockets, a CDL but no time .  Falling a 50 ft tree in some of these dense forests is no job for an amateur though.  They catch alot of wind up there.  Plus every one will hang up.  They will all have to be dragged  by the butt until they fall flat.  I need a helicopter.

I would like to do it myself but there is more work even just culling than I can handle.  We will see what the Foresters say when they come in.  Whatever happens, there is no way I am going to let this untouched forest turn into what I saw at the old high grade job yesterday.  

[stavebuyer]

I would also add that many loggers and landowners involved in high grades didn't know enough about forest management to realize that most forests are actually even aged and that you need lots of sunlight for regeneration of most species. They honestly thought that the smaller trees were just younger and would just replace the bigger ones given a little time and space. 

[stavebuyer]

Consulting Foresters generally push for lump sum sealed bid. Is your forester an independent consulting forester or a mill employed procurement forester?