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Author Topic: please help...hire orester or not?  (Read 4351 times)

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Offline Plankton

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2021, 09:52:01 PM »
Sounds like that 15 acre patch should be mowed and let start again. Hard to tell without being there.

With your cut I would get a tally from a forester or the logger etc.. have the stumps painted and get a copy of the mill slips if your not going to do it through a forester. Without knowing him or seeing his work he could be and excellent logger looking out for future harvest and the landowner or he could be taking you for a ride.

Offline barbender

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2021, 10:22:37 PM »
I don't care how good of a logger he is (and I am one😁) there is often just not enough incentive monetarily to "do what is right for the forest". We see it all the time where people have poor quality wood that needs help. The wood is not worth much or anything, or your just not going to get anything out. So how are you going to pay for the forestry machines that run at $150/hour? It's a rare landowner who is willing to actually pay to have their woodlot improved. They'll pay big money for mulching/grinding and food plot work, but when trees start coming down they're worth money and they expect to be paid for it. So I guess you could say I see both sides of this, and I certainly don't want to make this logger's motivation seem suspect. I can just guarantee that his motivation at the end of the day is to make money or he wouldn't be in business. In light of that, I feel confident that what he is going to take is not what would be best for the future of your forest. It may be a compromise between what is best and what is profitable. The bottom line is you need to decide what you want out of your forest, and if you are willing to take a lot less money, or even none, to get it there. It sounds like your timber is of a quality high enough that just taking full trees should be profitable, but I don't know your area or markets. 
Too many irons in the fire

Offline mike_belben

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2021, 11:20:48 PM »
The old saying goes that if you want a job done right youd better do it yourself.  If you can farm, you can probably log too.  Many here are both. 

If its something youd consider doing, jump on it fast. The money is good and you can presently sell your UGLY trees while keeping your diamonds on the stump to ripen even more.  Good timber will sell in any market but right now trash can be sold.  Since youd have no logger share to pay youd pocket all of it and do fine.   And obviously youd end up with the exact results you want with no fuss or sellers remorse.  


Just something to consider.  If youve got a CDL and truck/ trailer thats a huge leap forward.  I presume you have a decent saw and tractor.  
Psalm 37:16

Offline Southside

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2021, 11:26:30 PM »
Funny- because what Mike says is exactly why I got into logging.  There was never a desire to do so, rather it was clear that an opportunity to come out financially better, and achieve the goals I wanted on my own ground were only available if I did it myself.   Not going to say it was easy, made some mistakes along the way, then somehow it morphed into a sawmill operation and now I have more quality timber on my ground than when I started.  
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White Oak Meadows

Offline mike_belben

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2021, 11:34:11 PM »
Same here.  Extension forestor said my woodlot was junk needing a 70% haircut.  Well.. Turns out everyone else's little woodlot is highgraded junk too and no one is in the woodlot fixit business.  now im trying to make the economics of repairing highgrades work. 
Psalm 37:16

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2021, 12:40:15 AM »
 The problen I see with this is like 99% of the private jobs I encounter, the landowner wants the most money possible BUT the best possible situation for the woodlot, sometimes those 2 things don't mix. TSI or "Timber stand improvement" work is literally rare here or paid for, if you see a logger show up in a pickup with a chainsaw and a cable skidder throw that idea out the window, this is about cutting good wood and moving, dont confuse the 2 things. I agree with paying a forester sometimes, but like you've said this guy "or company" has been vetted and isn't fly by night. Honestly even from a logger stand point i wouldn't sell wood flat out, sell off % scaled on the landing, it keeps things honest and simple. Ive had landowners literally ride in the log truck, watch the logs dropped off at the mill and watch the check get cut, seen this play out. Right now wood is up, wait 6 months and it maybe a diff circumstance 🤷‍♂️. 

Offline Ed_K

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2021, 08:28:52 AM »
 Can someone try an figure out how much $$ per bf with what numbers have been given? I guessed an average of 45k. Would that = to a little over $.13 bf?

Offline stavebuyer

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2021, 10:15:01 AM »
Well......

I walked another 15 acre parcel today that he painted. This hardwood bush was logged pretty hard I'm guessing ~30 years ago by the previous landowner and has never been a sugar bush.  The landowner was a cheap old coot and this looks like he did a liquidation cut.  I counted 79 painted trees measuring 15"-24" DBH x 25'-35' of usable stem.  His offer for this was/is $6000.  I think one of us counted wrong LOL.

This parcel is a disaster I would say.  Lots of space with nothing but 4 ft high twigs.  Someone must have taken everything over 6" dia 30 years ago.  I have no explanation for why there hasn't been more regrowth,  Maybe the Foresters can figure it out.  It's a *DanG shame.
Typical result of a "high grade". Selecting the cash trees looks really good at the time. Typically the conversation runs like this:
Logger: "We only cut the trees ready for harvest so in 15 years we can do it again"
Landowner " I got paid $400/tree and the woods looks about the same; in 15 years I will call the guy back and cut it again"
Reality: The logger does a neat and tidy job. In and out fast and cleans up his landing. Everybody is all smiles. In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond. If they do its often with epicormic branches that ruin the log grade and value. You start looking close after the tops are rotted away and you see the little bark patches missing where the skidder tire, cable, or tree length logs bumped it. Woods looks like a park but the larger diameter trees almost all either damaged, hollow, deformed, or low value species. Most of the desirable species will either be suppressed, deformed, or show subtle signs of logging damage from when their cohorts were cut.
Agree that there is little to no incentive for a logger to run around fixing past greed. Two common answers are to clear cut it and let nature fix it or take the job on yourself a firewood tree at a time. The mid story is no problem. The big ugly hollow stuff is dangerous and can do a lot of damage coming down. Often times marked culls are left standing even when marked and included in the sale as they are just a cost to the logger to fell. A good forester will include contract terms that all marked trees must be felled.


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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2021, 10:19:24 AM »
Can someone try an figure out how much $$ per bf with what numbers have been given? I guessed an average of 45k. Would that = to a little over $.13 bf?
I tried but had a difficult time finding a chart that converts dia x height to bdft of STANDING trees.  anywhere from 12,000 to 17,000 bdft in 79 trees and he's offering $6,000 for that.  That does not compute for me. 

Offline stavebuyer

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2021, 10:28:52 AM »
DBH tables

18-20" DBH  form class 78 trees with 24'-32' merchantable height will come in at around 200 bd/tree depending on the scale being used.

80 trees @ 200'+/- 16000ft or .375 on the stump in this example. 

I generally wouldn't buy a job for crew to cut that didn't run at least 3000/ft acre.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2021, 10:32:27 AM »
Well......

I walked another 15 acre parcel today that he painted. This hardwood bush was logged pretty hard I'm guessing ~30 years ago by the previous landowner and has never been a sugar bush.  The landowner was a cheap old coot and this looks like he did a liquidation cut.  I counted 79 painted trees measuring 15"-24" DBH x 25'-35' of usable stem.  His offer for this was/is $6000.  I think one of us counted wrong LOL.

This parcel is a disaster I would say.  Lots of space with nothing but 4 ft high twigs.  Someone must have taken everything over 6" dia 30 years ago.  I have no explanation for why there hasn't been more regrowth,  Maybe the Foresters can figure it out.  It's a *DanG shame.
Typical result of a "high grade". Selecting the cash trees looks really good at the time. Typically the conversation runs like this:
Logger: "We only cut the trees ready for harvest so in 15 years we can do it again"
Landowner " I got paid $400/tree and the woods looks about the same; in 15 years I will call the guy back and cut it again"
Reality: The logger does a neat and tidy job. In and out fast and cleans up his landing. Everybody is all smiles. In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond. If they do its often with epicormic branches that ruin the log grade and value. You start looking close after the tops are rotted away and you see the little bark patches missing where the skidder tire, cable, or tree length logs bumped it. Woods looks like a park but the larger diameter trees almost all either damaged, hollow, deformed, or low value species. Most of the desirable species will either be suppressed, deformed, or show subtle signs of logging damage from when their cohorts were cut.
Agree that there is little to no incentive for a logger to run around fixing past greed. Two common answers are to clear cut it and let nature fix it or take the job on yourself a firewood tree at a time. The mid story is no problem. The big ugly hollow stuff is dangerous and can do a lot of damage coming down. Often times marked culls are left standing even when marked and included in the sale as they are just a cost to the logger to fell. A good forester will include contract terms that all marked trees must be felled.
Yep....the mature trees in this high graded bush are 50-60 ft tall I would guess and spaced 20-60 ft apart.  Canopy completely filled in forest floor completely shaded.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2021, 10:38:29 AM »
Honestly even from a logger stand point i wouldn't sell wood flat out, sell off % scaled on the landing, it keeps things honest and simple. Ive had landowners literally ride in the log truck, watch the logs dropped off at the mill and watch the check get cut, seen this play out. Right now wood is up, wait 6 months and it maybe a diff circumstance 🤷‍♂️.
I talked to a Forester yesterday that recommended selling a % of mill scale.  He said veneer logs are going for $2300/MBFT picked up at the landing. I think I have decided whatever happens I will sell by weight.  And not by the mill's weight either.  I will run the trucks across the grain elevator scale in town the same way I scale my grain.  I know enough to know that mill weights scales are never in the seller's favor.

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2021, 10:47:34 AM »
The old saying goes that if you want a job done right youd better do it yourself.  If you can farm, you can probably log too.  Many here are both.

If its something youd consider doing, jump on it fast. The money is good and you can presently sell your UGLY trees while keeping your diamonds on the stump to ripen even more.  Good timber will sell in any market but right now trash can be sold.  Since youd have no logger share to pay youd pocket all of it and do fine.   And obviously youd end up with the exact results you want with no fuss or sellers remorse.  


Just something to consider.  If youve got a CDL and truck/ trailer thats a huge leap forward.  I presume you have a decent saw and tractor.  
I have 5 saws, 18 farm tractors, 3 highway tractors, 4 flatbed trailers with stake pockets, a CDL but no time LOL.  Falling a 50 ft tree in some of these dense forests is no job for an amateur though.  They catch alot of wind up there.  Plus every one will hang up.  They will all have to be dragged  by the butt until they fall flat.  I need a helicopter.

I would like to do it myself but there is more work even just culling than I can handle.  We will see what the Foresters say when they come in.  Whatever happens, there is no way I am going to let this untouched forest turn into what I saw at the old high grade job yesterday.  

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2021, 11:04:38 AM »
I would also add that many loggers and landowners involved in high grades didn't know enough about forest management to realize that most forests are actually even aged and that you need lots of sunlight for regeneration of most species. They honestly thought that the smaller trees were just younger and would just replace the bigger ones given a little time and space. 


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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2021, 11:08:02 AM »
Consulting Foresters generally push for lump sum sealed bid. Is your forester an independent consulting forester or a mill employed procurement forester?

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2021, 11:10:57 AM »
Consulting Foresters generally push for lump sum sealed bid. Is your forester an independent consulting forester or a mill employed procurement forester?
I've spoken to two and neither are employed by a mill I think they are private.  Both were recommended by neighbors who own woodlots. 

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2021, 11:43:41 AM »
Quote
I have 5 saws, 18 farm tractors, 3 highway tractors, 4 flatbed trailers with stake pockets, a CDL but no time (Image hidden from quote, click to view.).  


I understand.  Youve only got one life to live.  Just gotta make the best of it and not get hung up on the little details.  


Regarding hardwood forests theres sorta two ways to manage them.  One is based on me me me and the other is based on the forest forest forest.. Obviously one can straddle the two extremes, and Naturally.. most people are strapped for cash and all are influenced by their self interest.  

Humans and forests have mismatched lifecycles so theres always the concept of where does the owners lifecycle fall in relation to the forest's?  

A take-the-best-now approach ..aka highgrade...is, in my opinion, ME based.  Precisely as stavebuyer explained, it leads to continually declining subsequent harvests until the "forest" that remains is a tree covered wasteland of solar unproductivity with no clear reset date. Its just a perpetual decline and shift to other organic matter without any market demand.  These are routinely subdivided.  If you dont like mcmansions you better be teaching good forestry!  Productive land stays producing and fallow land gets asphalt.  


With managment type 1, the first payout is the best however these are rarely done at peak maturity potential so its not that great.. Because there simply are no magnificent forests waiting to be discovered and logged off anymore.  The old growth is extinct and whats standing is meh.. Average.   So a me harvest produces less money over the life cycle of the stand for the lifecycle of the owner however what ever it does produce is assured to be available while the owner is living. It does not consider ones posterity or the unborn stranger.  one in the hand, settle for less, take what you can get and dont worry about tomorrow type of "management."  Im not judging, its a freeish country.

Thats not management though.. There are no inputs like planting cover crop or liming or manuring or fertilizing for next season like a short rotation crop. Or even learning about trees.  A person who employs high grading practices only knows about the money.  

Highgrade harvest is a purely extractive activity.  I like loggers just fine but theyre cutters, not managers. Its a profession centered on efficient extaction and marketing. It isnt their job to weed your flowerbed so to speak and i would not ask them to.



The other management style is what that landowner guide i linked is about.  It is focused more on the forests gain than its owners immediate gain, and is how one arrives at that "society grows great" quote.  It is for people who somehow dont need money but do need to feel they have done right by the future generation or the stand itself or the planet or whatever their reasonings. I know only ONE standing forest with mature noble species that is not being cut and it is a 3rd gen farm trust where the farmers were the forest managers.  And it is INCREDIBLE to stand in.  Just magnificent.  Twice the ceiling height of the adjoining forests. 5 logs to a limb.. Straight.  Beautiful.  And extremely valuable.

In this situation youre initial harvests are literally weeding operations.  They are labor inputs with no immediate reward.  The rewards are tremendous, but may not go in the accounting ledger until the unborn have houses. It produces an entire stand of supreme winners that are harvested all at once at staggering per/acre volumes of prime fiber.  Then the cycle starts over in an explosion of solar regen.. A sappling jungle of tall thin competitors rqces up like a starter pistol just went off.  

No one really does this and thats why its almost just a fantasy about old men planting trees for after they depart.  


You get to choose, but you dont get to go back and unchoose if you end up cutting the winners first. Its forever as far as your lifetime is concerned.


For those that seem capable, as you do, i advocate for the management of your own forest, no matter how small, with a goal of perfection.  It feels better than the money it will bring...a relaxing free hobby right in your own yard.  The thing i reserve for myself as a day off when im burned out on everyone and everything else.  There is no narrow market timing window on management type 2.  It will sit and wait patiently for you.  Little here, little there is fine. Day by day the results unfold.

Psalm 37:16

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2021, 11:49:02 AM »
"..... In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond."

What is the solution to this?  Cut some trees every 5 years once the canopy closes? Sounds like this is the purpose of a basal area cut.  Also sounds like a DIY job because not many loggers would want such a small job?
 
EDIT: Sorry I screwed the quote function up

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2021, 11:52:12 AM »
Quote
Whatever happens, there is no way I am going to let this untouched forest turn into what I saw at the old high grade job yesterday.  





Amen!
Psalm 37:16

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Re: please help...hire orester or not?
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2021, 11:58:03 AM »
"..... In five years the canopy is closed where the trees were cut. The regrowth that sprouted is shaded out and stunted. The trees left were not dominant at the time of harvest. Most likely the stand is even aged and the suppressed trees will not respond."

What is the solution to this?  Cut some trees every 5 years once the canopy closes? Sounds like this is the purpose of a basal area cut.  Also sounds like a DIY job because not many loggers would want such a small job?
  
EDIT: Sorry I screwed the quote function up
It is easy to do.  There are some glitches you will get used to in time.  Losing lengthy posts before you finish is the most chaffing.


Youve gotta get an eye for which trees are responding to release and which arent. Remove the losers.


When youve got enough light in to support continual replacement, You wont be able to walk through the regen.  There will be some degradation of the remaining mature trees from epicormic branching and that takes some time to figure out how to deal with, how to minimize etc. 


Not all trees will sprout trunk branching when released -for whatever reason- so when possible you want to favor keeping those, as they are more likely to produce a veener than any other.
Psalm 37:16


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