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Author Topic: Outrigger Wave  (Read 1723 times)

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Offline YellowHammer

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Outrigger Wave
« on: June 09, 2021, 09:50:57 PM »
Occasionally, I have been the subject of periodic waves in my milled wood.  The pattern is very similar but not exactly like, a band resonance wave, with which I am very familiar and can easily adjust out.  Sometimes this particular wave pattern is very bad, it's unpredictable, and it always bothered me that I couldn't pin it down.  I've eliminated cam followers, bandwheel belts, loose blade guide arm, pretty much everything I could.  The good news is that my saw is generally well dialed in, and can cut as flat as a chalkboard, so when these waves would manifest themselves, they were really distinctive and would really puzzle me, as well as light me up.  My mill is an LT70, set under a barn roof, on clay ground.  Its flat, level and probably hasn't moved 2 feet in as many years.

So a couple days ago, the waves magically appeared after days of flat, no wave sawing. Here's a picture of what these waves looked like.  These are in the mid way point of the board, and I could make them occur any time I changed feed speeds, any time I engaged the debarker, etc.    





Since I was sawing walnut, I didn't want these to happen so I stopped and really started going over everything with a fine tooth comb.  I noticed that as the head was traveling, I could actually see the head wobble up and down a little, and tried to repeat the effect.  So I turned everything off, elevated the head as high as it would go, grabbed the outboard side of the head and started forcing it up and dawn with a vengeance, and noticed there was a good deal of frame flex.  This flex was allowing the head to rock up and down, and would take several seconds to dampen out. Then I noticed that the log loader outriggers that appeared to be were very tight to the ground were also flexing.  How could that be?  This made me take a serious think.

All the outriggers were firm enough into the ground that even when I kicked them, they felt solid.  There was no slack that I could see in any of them, as I check them routinely.  Then the lightbulb in my brain went off.  The rain we've been having routinely off and on had moistened the ground under the outriggers, and the outriggers were setting on slightly soft ground, even though the ground appeared hard.  I simply didn't have enough support.

I have the fine adjust outriggers, and proceeded to adjusted every single one down, only 1/2 turn, until I felt them fetch up.  Thats right, only 1/2 turn on each, equally.  I could feel them land on the solid base under where they had been.

So on the exact same log, the very next cut, success! Flat as a pancake.  No waves, anywhere, at any speed.  Amazing.  1/2 turn down on the outriggers went from unacceptable to sweet. 




 

The board (slab) on the right is the "before" picture.  Notice the waves on the face in some areas.  

The board on the left is the "after" picture.  Zero waves, same band, same log, same feed rate, same everything.  Very smooth cut.  This shows how critical even the small things can be to get flat wood.  I sawed the rest of the afternoon, zero issues.   

Ball game.

Maybe this experience will help others.       
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Online mike_belben

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2021, 09:58:15 PM »
Good info yh.  Thx for sharing.


Isaiah 48:10

Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2021, 05:40:12 AM »
I have the same issues when the frost comes out of the ground in the spring time.
Mud season
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Offline jpassardi

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2021, 07:05:29 AM »
Nice diagnostic work. An easy long term solution may be to put timbers under the feet to displace the load and vibrations as the clay swells and shrinks back from moisture.
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Offline customsawyer

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2021, 07:09:43 AM »
Good find.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head planer, 30" double surface planer, Lucus dedicated slaber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2021, 07:28:56 AM »
Big timbers should work in the mean time if it keeps raining every day but what do you mud season guys do?

Looks like a good place for for me to put a heavy concrete pad in this whole area.  Then add a few rubber mats to stand on.  The clay is generally so hard, I already use them at my console.  

What problems can I expect with the mill on concrete?  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline Percy

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2021, 10:29:51 AM »
Big timbers should work in the mean time if it keeps raining every day but what do you mud season guys do?

Looks like a good place for for me to put a heavy concrete pad in this whole area.  Then add a few rubber mats to stand on.  The clay is generally so hard, I already use them at my console.  

What problems can I expect with the mill on concrete?  
I've had my LT70 with a 6 foot extension mounted on a concrete slab with a steel frame for elevation. After carefully leveling, I bolted it down solid to the built up frame on advice from Woodmizer Salmon Arm. It is one of the best things I've done as all that constant adjusting is a thing of the past.Im hunting for pics.....https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=85674.msg1313016#msg1313016
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Online mike_belben

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2021, 11:47:39 AM »
Mass dampens vibration.  Its why high speed, high precision milling and turning centers are so darn heavy.  They wont produce a good finish if the whole chassis has random resonant frequency vibrations.  They used to be full of extra cast iron.. Now its a lot more epoxy granite. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2021, 12:51:02 PM »
With any sawmill not on or in concrete this sort of thing should be expected. That mill must be otherwise in very good shape to do such smooth work.

Offline csmall61

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2021, 01:23:56 PM »
YH, you can make out rigger pads just like the ones used on mobile cranes.

Take 1 x 6 hardwood, use a two layered cross pattern to make a 2ft square, and add rope handles and use 1 x 2 to make a box in the center for the foot to set in.

With these under every out rigger, it won't matter how muddy it gets.  I will try to get a picture of mine and post.

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2021, 02:55:31 PM »
Yep, the rig can cut as flat as a pancake.

If it happens more Ill make some of those crane outrigger pads. 

Its amazing how when the clay got moist it had some give and as I was rocking the saw head around by hand, it would flex like it was on rubber pads.  The legs were heavily loaded by the the weight of the mill, but the ground was elastic and was just bouncing around.

It makes me wonder how many others have had this problem and tried to readjust their mill until they got fed up when all they had to do was take a half crank down on every outrigger.  

In case anybody is wondering the cuts were made with a 1.5 inch .055 Turbo Silvertip.  It had been sharpened once but not set.  

I only set every other sharpen.  



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline woodyone.john

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2021, 04:43:19 PM »
My standards for finish aren't as high as yours, but on some softer sites I've used 2 X8 or 10 spanning under the mill to land the 2 middle out riggers on them. For me this saved lots of time readjusting especially on heavier logs. Might work for you if a concrete slab is a way off.
Saw millers are just carpenters with bigger bits of wood

Offline Sixacresand

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2021, 05:05:10 PM »
I set up at a customer's concrete pad today quickly realized the pad was not flat or all in one plane.  I don't have the fine adjust deals, but attempted to used wood shims make all the mill supports firm.  

I have seen that issue and assumed it just was an out of set blade a splinter stuck to a wheel belt.  

Thanks for sharing,  YH
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Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2021, 07:17:30 PM »
I have crane type mats under some and 16"16"4" concrete masonary units under others.
I test the frost level with an iron bar daily during mud season.
I have hopes of pouring a pad this summer.
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Offline KenMac

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2021, 09:03:59 PM »
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I have noticed on a few YouTube videos this same appearing ripple effect. It seemed to occur at the start of the cut or, as you said, when feed speed slowed. Apparently, the guys just accepted it as normal and let it slide. Thanks for the interesting story YH.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2021, 11:16:10 PM »
When my mill isnt cutting right, it just bothers me. :D

Not to mention its embarrassing.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it wont roll, its not a log; its still a piece of tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not pieces of trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, theyre burned, and you cant fix them.  Dont burn the cookies.

Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2021, 11:52:23 PM »
Robert,

I have had it both ways, on dirt and on concrete.  Concrete wins hands down, in my circumstances.  My mill is under cover, the roof of a lean-to on my barn, 10'x60', concrete full length. Slight slope to the concrete away from the barn.  I still offer mobile appointments so I may set the mill up under the lean-to once a week or so.  It is quick to set up and maintains its level (6 crank down 5000 lb Bulldog trailer swivel jacks).  

With the metal building wall and concrete surface, cleaning up the sawdust is easy, usually before setting up after a mobile appointment and, unlike dirt, I can get it clean.  I move it in and out with the skid steer or tractor and have painted the concrete under each wheel and the tongue jack so placement is repeatable.  Under the operators station I have a 4'x6' rubber stall mat that has been there about 10 years with no signs of deterioration, the mill and skid steer go over it every time I move the mill.  With the stall mat and accumulating sawdust, I have not had any foot issues from working on concrete.
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Offline Crossroads

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2021, 12:48:26 AM »
I m another one who thought it was caused y a tooth or 2 out of set. Thank you for sharing what you found! One more reason for me to order the FAOs
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Offline Gere Flewelling

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2021, 08:18:53 AM »
YH- This is impressive solution to the previously unexplained occurrence (for me anyway).  I am curious if you think it might affect a 4 post mill in a similar fashion.  I have a portable mill that sets on 6 jacks when set up.  I run into this issue occasionally, but mostly when sawing hemlock and pine.  I first noticed it when I tried a Timber Wolf band for the first time.  I just figured it was a characteristic of that brand of band.  Since I have noticed it from time to time with the Cook's bands I usually use.  I can't honestly say if the ground was soft under the mill when it happens.  I do set the jacks on hardwood boards in my yard when setting it up as in the spring the ground will allow the jacks to settle in to the dirt.   It is set up on turf and not compacted gravel.  Yours or anyone else's opinion on the would be appreciated.  Thanks, GF
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Offline Tin Horse

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Re: Outrigger Wave
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2021, 01:29:41 PM »
YH- This is impressive solution to the previously unexplained occurrence (for me anyway).  I am curious if you think it might affect a 4 post mill in a similar fashion.  I have a portable mill that sets on 6 jacks when set up.  I run into this issue occasionally, but mostly when sawing hemlock and pine.  I first noticed it when I tried a Timber Wolf band for the first time.  I just figured it was a characteristic of that brand of band.  Since I have noticed it from time to time with the Cook's bands I usually use.  I can't honestly say if the ground was soft under the mill when it happens.  I do set the jacks on hardwood boards in my yard when setting it up as in the spring the ground will allow the jacks to settle in to the dirt.   It is set up on turf and not compacted gravel.  Yours or anyone else's opinion on the would be appreciated.  Thanks, GF
On my 4 post Enercraft the frame work is very heavy. It is also supported on 6 outriggers. However when it sat on the ground with large planks under the feet it still moved. Log weight. I noticed when the head was up high and then lowered it would jitter downward. Took a while to figure out why. I always check the rails with a sight level ( transit). There would eventually be some twist or flex in the frame causing this. Problem gone now with mill under a roof and on pads to the bedrock. 8)
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