Outrigger Wave

Bruno of NH · June 11, 2021, 09:35:28 PM

JB
I'm not a fan of your band of choice or their style of sales,
Not all weld them up shops are the same.

DPatton · June 11, 2021, 10:54:13 PM

YH,
You have potentially shed some light on an issue I've been trying to figure out for some time. Our mills are nothing alike but I too on occasion have a similar blade vibration/oscillation issue that I've not yet been able to pin point.

Unlike you almost all of my sawing is done on a mobile basis. So almost each and every day I saw is a new setup in a new location. I used to travel with 3 OSHA planks that I used for a base under my 3 pairs of outriggers. However In more recent times I have chosen to just carry and utilize a chunk of 5/4" x 12" x12" under each individual outrigger jack for ease of travel and transport.

Some days I have no issues at all with my 4* Kasco blades from Cutting Edge. Usually I can cut perfect, smooth, lumber all day long. I use 4* Kasco's because of my horsepower limitations. My mill cuts real nice with Woodmizer turbo 7's in 18" and narrower cuts but I cut a lot of wide material and the Kasco 4*'s do well for me. However some days I get that wave. It drives me nuts and in the past I've gone as far as replacing blades, belts, bearings, adjusting belt tension, etc..... to try and make it go away. You may have just answered my problem regarding this issue.

More to come!

JB Griffin · June 11, 2021, 11:26:51 PM

My blade of choice is 1.25x.045 7/35 Kasco for those who are interested.

I've tried turbo7, 7/47 among others that failed my expectations of what a blade should be. The deep gullet blades DEMAND high torque and my 33hp Kubota ain't got it to give, the BP Dominator had plenty, 50 3phase thoroughbreds.

I am a HUGE fan, you don't have to be, plenty of other blades out there.

I haven't found silvertips anywhere cheap enough to justify the inconsistencies.

Nope, all weld em up shops aren't the same, but they all get the exact same coil stock.

In my previous post I said that I saw the same things from the weld em up shops AND from WM.

All that to say I don't think it was just an outrigger problem.

barbender · June 11, 2021, 11:55:48 PM

I have never ran into inconsistency of any sort with Silvertips, or any WM band for that matter. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I've not seen it. My band usage is low enough that I would be more like "random samples"😁

YellowHammer · June 12, 2021, 12:50:44 AM

Moral of the story. It's important to firmly and properly set the outriggers into the ground to fully support the mill to reduce its flex. Solid ground, base, or pads. That's what the outriggers are there for, and they make a difference, more so than I thought. Start with the basics.

As I mentioned earlier, I did the trouble shooting with the mill not running, and it's a process I'll repeat routinely if I start seeing waves where there were none.

Grab the idle side wheel cover or whatever, and flex the head hard, up and down, up and down, by hand, and look for frame flexing. There will be some, but not a lot. See if the outriggers are pumping into the ground. If they are, adjust them down or put a base on them until they are not. Repeat the process of flexing the head up and down by hand until it is minimized. If the flex has been reduced, you'll saw flatter boards, no matter what bands are used.

I think this is so easy, I've overlooked it's importance.

There are many, many other causes of wavy sawing, this certainly isn't the only one to watch out for. However, making sure my outriggers are solid and secure has been added to my list. I had never really considered it a potential problem because my mill is stationary, but things happen.

I am very familiar with wavy cuts caused by blade resonance issues that look very similar to this, caused by a poor match of band to the wood, slow sawing speed, sawdust under the band wheel belt, etc. We've all had many discussions on the subject. However, this is not that.

As far as bands, on this mill alone (my third) I've used DH 055-10's, DH 045-9's, DH 055-9s, DH 055-7's, DH 055 Turbos, DH 055-4's, Kasco 055 7's, Kasco 055 7/40 (basically the WM Turbo), WM carbides, the DH 055 747's and Silvertip 055 Turbos. I routinely saw maybe two dozen different hardwood species, some very hard, (pecan) and some very soft (basswood). This mill does like pretty much all of the band geometries, it's pretty forgiving, although the carbide and the Turbo style, both in Kasco and WM consistently perform best, with faster and smoother cuts. I get very good performance and have selected the 055 x 1.5" Turbo Silvertips as my standard band now.

ladylake · June 12, 2021, 04:00:41 AM

Quote from: DPatton on June 11, 2021, 10:54:13 PM
YH,
You have potentially shed some light on an issue I've been trying to figure out for some time. Our mills are nothing alike but I too on occasion have a similar blade vibration/oscillation issue that I've not yet been able to pin point.

Unlike you almost all of my sawing is done on a mobile basis. So almost each and every day I saw is a new setup in a new location. I used to travel with 3 OSHA planks that I used for a base under my 3 pairs of outriggers. However In more recent times I have chosen to just carry and utilize a chunk of 5/4" x 12" x12" under each individual outrigger jack for ease of travel and transport.

Some days I have no issues at all with my 4* Kasco blades from Cutting Edge. Usually I can cut perfect, smooth, lumber all day long. I use 4* Kasco's because of my horsepower limitations. My mill cuts real nice with Woodmizer turbo 7's in 18" and narrower cuts but I cut a lot of wide material and the Kasco 4*'s do well for me. However some days I get that wave. It drives me nuts and in the past I've gone as far as replacing blades, belts, bearings, adjusting belt tension, etc..... to try and make it go away. You may have just answered my problem regarding this issue.

More to come!

Do you have the down pressure set at least 1/4". Steve

Bruno of NH · June 12, 2021, 07:12:06 AM

I pay $16.00 delivered to my mill for WM 1.25 t7's
I can buy 5 to 50 any quantity and pay the same.
Not 15 blades at once
Weld em up boys

JB Griffin · June 12, 2021, 10:55:45 AM

I've said my piece, my experience tells me otherwise.
Having sawn millions of bdft with 5 different mills (1 keenerbuilt, 1 WM, 3 Bakers) I have never seen that even when the mill was loose from the ground/concrete even so much that outriggers came off the ground when the log hit the backstops when loading.

Bruno of NH · June 12, 2021, 03:58:28 PM

@JB Griffin
O'Doyle Rules :D :D

Gere Flewelling · June 12, 2021, 07:55:43 PM

YH- The timing of this post is great. I was at a customers site today sawing large white pine logs and noticed the diagonal waves starting to show up on the cuts. Went and checked the jacks and found they were not applying enough ground pressure in the center and one on the further end. I was set up in a sandy gravel driveway that seemed hard enough at first, but rolling 16'x 30" dia. logs slams down pretty hard and apparently hammered out the dirt under the jacks. When I adjusted the loose jacks, the lines went away. Hit a couple of nails today, :embarassed: wish I could find an answer to that issue like for the diagonal waves. Metal detector didn't catch them. Thanks for the help. GF

YellowHammer · June 12, 2021, 11:12:06 PM

That is great news. I'm glad it helped. 8) 8)

DPatton · June 13, 2021, 08:30:43 AM

Quote from: ladylake on June 12, 2021, 04:00:41 AM
Quote from: DPatton on June 11, 2021, 10:54:13 PM
YH,
You have potentially shed some light on an issue I've been trying to figure out for some time. Our mills are nothing alike but I too on occasion have a similar blade vibration/oscillation issue that I've not yet been able to pin point.

Unlike you almost all of my sawing is done on a mobile basis. So almost each and every day I saw is a new setup in a new location. I used to travel with 3 OSHA planks that I used for a base under my 3 pairs of outriggers. However In more recent times I have chosen to just carry and utilize a chunk of 5/4" x 12" x12" under each individual outrigger jack for ease of travel and transport.

Some days I have no issues at all with my 4* Kasco blades from Cutting Edge. Usually I can cut perfect, smooth, lumber all day long. I use 4* Kasco's because of my horsepower limitations. My mill cuts real nice with Woodmizer turbo 7's in 18" and narrower cuts but I cut a lot of wide material and the Kasco 4*'s do well for me. However some days I get that wave. It drives me nuts and in the past I've gone as far as replacing blades, belts, bearings, adjusting belt tension, etc..... to try and make it go away. You may have just answered my problem regarding this issue.

More to come!
Do you have the down pressure set at least 1/4". Steve

Yes, I have been running the 1/4" down pressure for several years after reading about it here on the FF.
However this topic got me to thinking about times that I have seen wave occur at what I can only explain as as certain point of saw head travel down the deck. It wouldn't be reoccurring or repeat itself anywhere else in the cut like it does if it's the blade, or sawdust buildup on or under the belts. I check for buildup or debris on the track and chain rail as well but have never really pinpointed what may have been the cause. Like I said every day I saw is a different setup. Some days it's frozen, some days thawing, some muddy, and some dry and solid under the mill. Sometimes The client bumps the mill around while loading a log onto the lifting arms with support equipment. All of these can change how firmly the jacks are planted and how straight the mill bed stays at any given time.
I'm happy to say that I ran all day yesterday sawing 4000 bf of walnut slabs without any waves.

TroyC · June 13, 2021, 08:53:20 AM

Glad to see this post. Last time I set my EZ40 up I had several washboards like the photo. I'll check the pressure on the jacks next time. Thanks!

Stephen1 · June 13, 2021, 11:01:33 AM

Interesting for sure and something I will watch for. I get it all the time, on and off of course. I have chalked it up to not sawing fast enough, so I would speed up if I could on the next pass, you mention you slowed down and it appeared. I am going to start checking my outriggers more, in fact I think I will invest in 4 FAOR. I also find I have trouble putting blocking under my outriggers. unless I put the wheels up on the blocking also. The outriggers are too tall and so match the bunks if not a little higher. I set my mill up every day. I am at different sites, in my yard I set up every day and put my mill away every night. I do not leave my mill out at night as my shop is in a industrial setting and machinery does dissapear.
I have switched to .55 silvertips 7/39. I just started using them last week. I like them so far, I can now hear the motor work consistently,the govenor kicking in. 1st time really since I bought the mill. I can push the mill now. The cuts were flat. All the sawing I did this week was 26" plus logs, soft and hardwood. I do have a question on the sawdust left though. Should I widen the set when I sharpen? What set are you using?
This is the 1st log I used the new blades on at a customers, good test, dead and semi dried out big ugly ash. A little trimming and pushing to get the mill through it.

Satamax · June 13, 2021, 02:49:57 PM

Yellowhammer. I don't know if this can be of any use.

But when i set up my saw. A friend of mine dug the ground, into which we set 12 barrels, at approximately the same height. I did check with my laser. He backfilled around, and we filled up those with lean concrete. You can vaguely make the barrels out in the following photos.

They're about right under the freezing line over here. Which is about a yard down.

YellowHammer · June 13, 2021, 10:47:14 PM

Satamax, thanks, I'll look into, it.

Stephen1, I don't do much about the set. I just set them to .023, you can see how much sawdust I have on my boards. They are pretty clean and dry.

Stephen1 · June 19, 2021, 07:22:40 AM

I have started using the new to me wider thicker blades. 1.5" .55 silvertips 7/39 turbo's.
I also read this post at the same time I started the new blades.
Here are my observations about this issue.
I called it corduroy, from sawing to slow or what we have been told by a lot of people.
YH brings up and observes and names it. " Outrigger Wave" or OW
I set up this week at my shop on uneven pavement as I always do. The 4 inner outriggers have to be shimmed as the pavement is not level under the mill. I do not have the FAOR on the inner 4
I used to leave them loose, give them a kick wiggle loose. I would get the corduroy on and off using the 1.25" blades.
I observed corduroy this week using the new stronger blades very consistantly. I actually sawed some wedges from the log I was sawing and hammered them under the 4 outriggers. The corduroy or OW dissapeared.
I think the stronger blades, result's in us pushing the mill's to motor's limits. The bigger motors give us more torque? You then need to do what YH says and set your mill up to utilize the design of the mill. make sure the outriggers are solid.
I will have to buy the FAOR for my mill, especially if I continue to use the stronger blades.

John S · June 19, 2021, 09:22:16 AM

The FAOS make quite a difference in set up, especially for mobile jobs. Shims are a thing of the past. I will be making wide pads to place below each one for more stability. This is a welcome thread.

YellowHammer · June 19, 2021, 02:01:25 PM

Quote from: Stephen1 on June 19, 2021, 07:22:40 AM
I called it corduroy, from sawing too slow or what we have been told by a lot of people.
YH brings up and observes and names it. " Outrigger Wave" or OW

I observed corduroy this week using the new stronger blades very consistantly. I actually sawed some wedges from the log I was sawing and hammered them under the 4 outriggers.

The corduroy or OW dissapeared.

That is OUTSTANDING! 8) 8)