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Thinning under brush

Started by charles mann, January 09, 2022, 04:17:37 PM

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charles mann

I need to define my property line and clear some underbrush out on 10ac and was thinking of renting either a forestry mulcher (CAT HM415B mulcher head and the Cat 299 high flow SS. Iv never ran rotary drum mulcher, only a fel brush mower on bobcat SS and it wasnt a fast pace operation. The mulcher and 299 hi flow is running around $1000 a day plus with cat rental, i have to provide my own equip insurance coverage, up to $275,000. 

The underbrush is thick and property line im sure has some 8-12" trees in the way. Is the production speed of a drum mulcher greater than that of a brush mower and if so, by how much? 
I want to make a "fire brake" in addition, making 2 passes with a total cut width of 10' on the boundary lines and several more through the rest of the acreage so i can get get in there with my tractor and a 500gal water tank skid with a pony motor and 1" hose to keep the fore under control or easier access for the volunteer FD to help get the fire under control. 

Suggestions and opinions from people with direct operational experience using both a mulcher and brush mower attachment is greatly appreciated. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

newoodguy78


treemuncher

Just my opinion: You will likely hear different from others. Think logically and make your own choices. 

I used to own a skid steer and will never go back to one of those for clearing work. They are fine for material up to 2" and maybe occasional 4" material. Yes, they can and will do larger material but I don't have the patience to sit there forever while they nibble a log to death. I'm coffee rich in the AM, and throughout the day, and with lots of caffeine, I don't work the Jersey Team - I never milk a job. If you plan to get much done in a day, look for 200 hp or larger with pumps and motors to match. Especially if you plan on a lot of 8" and larger material. I'll eat anything that I'm paid to do including stump balls, brush piles and anything vegetative.

If you want to get your work done by the most cost effective method, hire someone with the right equipment. If you are down there in Texas, you should be able to find local clearing contractors with big machines. If your ground is hard and relatively flat, get in a rubber tired machine like a Barko 930 or 937 for maximum ground coverage in a day's work, but that might be overkill for this little job. If the terrain is not suitable for one of those, a large tracked mulcher can access the majority of terrain available although at a slower pace. A good contractor will tell you which method and machine will be most efficient after looking over your job. Size, species, density, terrain and finish quality will dictate how much cost will be involved to do your work.

I had a customer last summer that gave up on waiting for me to get to his job. He rented a Kubota 95 with a clearing head on it. Between 2 days rental and repairs to the machine, I think he said he spent nearly $5k. He still had the SS on site when I called him, thinking that he had hired someone else and was no longer interested in my services. He could not get me in there fast enough so I started the next day. I got more done in the first 2 hours with my big tracked machine than he did in the 2 days that he worked it. Once he saw how productive I was with my machine, he knew I was worth the hourly cost and saved him a ton of money. It might be hard to justify in your head the higher up front cost to hire someone that does this for a living but you will save so much more money in the end game.

As for the production rates of drums vs disks, unless I'm cutting grass, I'll take the drum every time. Drums will cut any size material if you have the hp and patience. A disk only cuts on the peripheral edges. Drums are also typically safer because you can contain the discharge better. When I run a hoe unit, a disk or blade cutter is way too slow for me. I prefer a drum style as I have more cutting surface available and I'm not spinning a spindly tree top around in circles when I should be suckin' and shuckin' chips. Speaking of "suckin' & shuckin'", drums are more humane on the occasional cherry mud pies that pop out of a burrow at the wrong time. Once a critter goes through a drum, it will never move again. No chances for living through partial cut misery.

Drum mulchers will also allow a better finish quality by mixing the top inch or so of topsoil in with the chips if you have the horsepower and the depth set proper. Just throw down seed after and you're done. No need to blend or crimp seed into the soil. Rocks are terrible on blade style heads where carbides can live through an incredible amount of abuse. Every job and customer is different but I know what works best for me in my area. 

At 10 acres, you're likely looking at about 1/2 mile total perimeter, maybe less. Depending on the variables, that might even get knocked out in a day with a 150hp machine. Every job is different unless you are in a flatland plantation.
TreeMuncher.com  Where only the chosen remain standing

SwampDonkey

Are you looking to cut down any of those 8-12" trees or just the brush? A 12" tree is not brush. :D For me it's logical, if I'm just in brush, I swing a clearing saw. You're brushing a property line, not clearing farm fields. I do two 3/4 mile lines every few years with one, and it doesn't take a day to do it. Any blow downs, I usually cut with a chainsaw and toss aside. I like a nice path down the line. ;D Ok, now a fire break, that's not just cutting brush, so the clearing saw idea switches to heavy equipment. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Walnut Beast

That setup would be able to do it just fine. Go watch U tube of what skidsteers can do and tree size. Like I said before many guys run from one to several skidsteers day in and day out mulching and yes they also have big dedicated machines. 

Walnut Beast

Looks like the skidsteers do just fine along with the bigger ones and my friend would tell you the same 

 

SwampDonkey

Jeff had a skid steer guy come clear paths and stuff last year. His was mainly alder sized stuff, but there was some old dead logs it chewed up to, not green logs I don't think. Big difference between alder wood and 12" standing green wood. Also is it soft fir or hard oak?
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

charles mann

The property was select logged around 16-17 yrs ago and no other equip has been on it since then, except for my tractor and bush hog 2 yrs ago. Some of what i was cutting was 4", and when u shoved a limb into my radiator when backing up, i decided to not bring a farm tractor back in to clear up the property lines. 

I think a wheeled unit is to big for some of the areas and have a seasonal creek running through the middle with only 1 low water crossing i pushed in with a dozer about 12 yrs ago. Having someone come in that isnt familiar with the land and the inability to just walk the lines, makes it difficult to have a guy with a dedicated tracked mulcher and give me an honest ballpark quote. But im not beyond asking someone with the right equip for the right job to quote me a cost. 

Those 8-12" trees will come out, but not by a mulcher, ill use a saw and fell them, as any other sizes on the other property line will come out. 

When i said a fire break, i wasnt speak of turning the soil like a true fire break does, just a 10' swath of chipped brush and trees felled that ill drag out
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

charles mann

We have yopaun, which can get 4-6", but its a soft hard wood with the bulk of the hardwoods being oak, sweetgum, hickory and ash, and i think some sparse pines. 

Im gonna hit craigslist and market place and contact some folks that clear for a living and walk the property best we can and get quotes. I'll follow behind the mulcher with my tractor and saw take down and drag out any tree in the way after the mulcher clears me a path 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

YellowHammer

It sounds a lot like our property.  When I first cleared ours 20 years ago, it was such a grown up mess that I floated some large mylar party balloons on strings attached to the survey markers.   :D  I floated them up above the brushy tree canopy so I could see them.  It was the only way for me to get a straight line to know where I was going from on point to another.  This property line had a lot of zig zags and I couldn't just get a compass bearing, and even though it had been surveyed, the markers where so far away, I would loose sight of them.  It was a hokey idea but it worked. :D   
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

charles mann

Once i can find my SE line, im golden and i can get a survey guy in there to get exact locations. I did find my SW line and was going to attempt to run my western fence line, but mr. limb and mr. radiator had a disagreement and limb won. 

I am waiting on 2 call backs from some hydro mulchers in the area. I could rent a D5 or equivalent and push the brush around and make a burn pile, but even that may be to big of a machine to not scar up any trees i dont want cut down. I was gonna do the entire 20ac but personal reasons between former step mom and myself has now made it to taking care of my land and her land is not my problem. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

mike_belben

i do it with a quad, a clearing saw and a chainsaw.  tie flagging tape vertical to a good marker tree as high as ya can, say a loop at face height, a vertical ribbon, and another loop at full reach.  if i can get the quad to it i stand on the rack for extra height.  this is so you can tell thats for sure youre marker as all the pink specs can blend in when you get far but that vertical line stands alone.  now go through the woods to your next best marker.  if its crazy far, then yeah the ballon is an excellent idea because mine wont work beyond line of sight.  i also use climbing sticks to get up the marker tree and site in on my next target then have my son walk where i say and tie a ribbon here and there headed where i guide him.  

this gives a rough lined path with some swerves in it because the trees themselves block the view.  but little by little i remove the little flagged trees or any one that blocks a line of sight view.  i just keep walking that line back and forth and removing a little more, a little more, until i can tie a construction string with no zig zag from point to point and use it to pound a few fence posts.  now my longest line is 1300 feet and i know some of you guys are playing with miles but so far it works pretty well.  

if i come to a tree that has enough value for an ownership dispute or i dont wanna cut it but cant see down the line through it.. i make that my next line waypoint and flag it up the same way, swap the climbing sticks over and go forward from the new major tree. 
Praise The Lord

Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

charles mann

Going tomorrow to meet a guy with a dedicated hydro mulcher that he says has a gps unit. Im gonna see if the land tax folks have gps coordinates a d if so, i'll plot it on google maps and bring my handheld gps and see if we can get to the locations. 

Are those dedicated hydro mulchers any faster at production, compared to a SS with a forestry mulcher attachment? 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

charles mann

@Jeff 

How much land did they clear and about how long did it take? 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

Jeff

The cost was 200 an hour, but once you see the operation, you know that the operator is absolutely half of what any machine is capable of. I had a good operator.  Im not exactly sure how much was cleared, but for a total of around $1500 spread over 2 trips, that machine did more than I could ever do. It would grow up faster behind me.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Resonator

QuoteWhen I first cleared ours 20 years ago, it was such a grown up mess that I floated some large mylar party balloons on strings attached to the survey markers.    
What you saw was swamp gas from a weather balloon that was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus. (Old movie quote).;D
Under bark there's boards and beams, somewhere in between.
Cuttin' while its green, through a steady sawdust stream.
I'm chasing the sawdust dream.

Proud owner of a Wood-Mizer 2017 LT28G19

YellowHammer

Floating balloons was a bush league idea, but it worked.  We have lots of hills and valleys, and I couldn't use my transit to see anything anyway.  I even tried putting a bunch of PVC pipe together and holding that up as a tall sighting rod, but with our elevation changing 95 vertical feet from hill to hollow that didn't even work.  No luck.

So off to WalMArt, got some party balloons, tied them to a string, and up they went.  Worked like a charm.  I could see them from the cab of my tractor, and all I had to do was knock things down "Going that a way."




Quote from: Jeff on January 11, 2022, 10:28:14 AMIm not exactly sure how much was cleared, but for a total of around $1500 spread over 2 trips, that machine did more than I could ever do. It would grow up faster behind me.
Jeff's video is going to cost me more than that!  After watching it a few times, it certainly helped me make the decision to buy a CTL and mulcher like in his video.  

 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

LeeB

Quote from: YellowHammer on January 12, 2022, 08:38:19 AMI could see them from the cab of my tractor, and all I had to do was knock things down "Going that a way."


How much did wind affect the outcome?
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

Jeff

Im just excited someone actually watched a video!

Baloons. I remember in the late 1980s on some of our first gypsy moth Arial sprays, pre gps I suppose, spray areas were marked with big red balloons.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

charles mann

After getting several quotes for cutting the underbrush, it seems the cost between renting and hiring it done could be $500-1000 less for me to rent, which equates to an additional day of rental. Im no pro on a high flow skid steer and mulcher head, but im not such a novice i couldnt efficiently and effectively operate the unit. 

Opinions as to rent or hire it out are very much welcome. 
Temple, Tx
Fire Fighting and Heavy Lift Helicopter Mech
Helicopter and Fixed Wing Pilot

johndozer

When Hydro Quebec was building Bai James hydro in the 70's some of their survey points were tied in by shining a laser vertically then hovering a helicopter up the beam capturing the beam in a cone until they got high enough that surveyors could sight the helicopter and take a shot on it.

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