I have seen talk on bugs in the wood here on the FF.
I sell green wood to a ton of people.
And will always, My timber framers want as green as I can get.
Most don't care, [Farmers.]
So I have to order some slips for next year. I was thinking of putting a line on it, saying something like.
Lumber is not KD, customer is responsible for end use of green lumber.
Lumber is not KD, customer is responsible for the outcome using green lumber.
Any answers out there, or how to word it so i;m not at fault for
what green will do.
All or most know how to use it, I don't get big box stores customers.
Thanks and :new_year:
Any lawyers out there? ???
In an effort to cover my butt, my sawing contract states that I make no guarantees as to the suitability of the lumber for its end use.
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Be careful appearing to be all lawyered up.
I found several websites that sell wood and used words from many of their disclaimers. I've never had any person complain about mine, but I have had people ask "What happens if ??" and I say "Look on the bottom of your receipt." Then they say "Oh, OK."
Disclaimers allow some peace of mind for the business owner. If a customer balks at a basic liability disclaimer, it means they want the right to sue you later.
My receipt says this simply on the bottom margin of the page and it doesn't cost anything to put it on, but it may save my business. I don't have an opinion about being lawyered up, but this proves to the customers I'm not going to be their free lottery ticket.
"All sales final. Not responsible for any claims or damage, direct or indirect, for use of this product."
I don't know if this is the best phrasing but I ran it my my lawyers years ago and they said it was suitable (I've changed it little, but kept the key words in there."
Don't forget, many times, it's the insurance company that wants to sue. This was also to protect me from the insurance company if somebody builds a simple stir tread or handrail and somebody gets injured.
There may be some better phrasing out there, I'd be interested to know.
When I developed my sawing contract I handed it to my attorney. He read it and said that if they signed it, I was OK.
I realize that trust is trust, a handshake is a handshake, but business is business.
I have customers who occasionally want to return or exchange wood for one reason or another.
Many times they will start the conversation with "I know it says all sales are final, but.." and I will listen to them. If they have a real complaint our concern, sure I will help them, not because I have to, but because it's the right thing to do. On the other hand, there are people who think I'm Amazon or Wal Mart and can return anything just because they want to.
Just yesterday a guy complained that our "Red oak was too red, and did I have any red oak that was lighter colored?" Over Martha's laughter, I told him that he better make the decision before he pays for it, because all sales are final, and it's printed on the receipt. That was another "Oh, OK" moments.
I agree, business is business. Handshakes and "He said, she said" won't work if the poop hits the fan, but the phrasing also stops the stupid stuff right out of the gate.
It's short and to the point, I like it :).
I think I put something similar on the bottom of the beam calcs here.
I had a lawyer look over our basic construction contract one time. His comment was it was little more than a handshake.
Quote from: Magicman on December 31, 2022, 08:01:04 AM. . He read it and said that if they signed it, I was OK. . .
There seems to be a difference there.
MM appears to have a milling estimate or contract that his customers sign before milling begins.
YH and Don may have the same or similar words on the receipt or next to the beam calc. However, there isn't a signature next to it.
Would you think that MM has the better protection from knuckleheads when it comes time to see Judge Judy?
:new_year: To all, Thanks for all the ideas. I do like YH line and may use it.
Signatures are good. We used to have the little yellow and white carbonless receipt books printed up by any number of companies by the dozens and they printed our company logo at the top and the disclaimer at the bottom. They didn't cost much more than generic ones. Any local print shop can make them or order on line. When the customer signed the paper receipt we each had a copy. Signing receipts is common, every single load or lumber I buy I have to sign a receipt that the truck drivers hands me.
Now I use a credit card reader and customers sign it just like at Wal Mart.
For the beam calc, putting the disclaimer where the user has to see it to perform the calculation falls under under "reasonable intent" where Don reasonably expects the user to see it and the user would have to reasonably see it to get to the calcs. For example, instead of putting it at the bottom of the page, it would be glaringly obvious at the top of the page or title. Any reasonable person would be expected to see it. Of course you could go full Monty and put in an "I accept" screen in order to navigate to the actual calculations.
As our lawyer explained to us, because sometimes we would forget to have a customer sign their receipt, if a signature is not done, and a receipt of the transaction is handed to the customer, then their acceptance of it by the customer is also acceptance of what is written on it. Whether or not they actually read it is their problem as long as it is put in a reasonable place and not hidden. That is what judges are for, to judge that as a seller you did everything to inform the customer that were not hiding or concealing the terms of the transaction. The terms are clearly written on the reciept they accepted. It says "All sales final."
Ultimately, and realistically, if it's a small claims case, it would be decided by a judge, and if it's large claim, most likely the two insurance companies will settle out of court, and it's best to have enough ammo for your mean as heck insurance attorneys to fight their mean as heck insurance attorneys. It's also good to have as much ammo as possible to help justify coverage by your umbrella policy.
I think the real key is to be upfront and do what is conventionally done by any business, which is give receipts, have them sign or initial using my of several means, and just go about running a business like a business. We don't make a big fuss over it, and where it really pays off is allowing our business to explain our position the same way, every time, to every customer.
If we have 100 customers a week then every customer gets the exact same information.
Also, remember, I'm not a lawyer, I'm just explaining what I've been told and what we do.
The power of a receipt to explain things in black and white is undeniable. As I've said before, when questioned by our policies by a customer, I just say "look at your receipt, it's on there."
Everyone keep in mind just because your told by your attorney that something is fine doesn't mean it is. Many lawyers are not even on the same level as ones that are specialized in a particular field. That's why many firms have several lawyers specializing in a specific field.
Good post YH.
We should all be aware that bugs in the lumber is just one of many risks involved in dealing with the public.
As you said, being upfront and making every client aware of where your business boundaries are, goes a long way to running a secure business.