Kiln chamber design for Nyle L53

[blackhawk]

Hello All,

I'm in the planning stages of building a kiln chamber using the Nyle L53 dehumidification unit.  This is my first kiln of any sort.  I have went through the Nyle chamber build plans in their manual pretty thoroughly and they seem solid.  Here is a link to the plans, they start on page 4:   https://www.nyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/NDK-L53-Manual-2021-V4.2-qps-W-DATA-STICKERS.pdf

I plan to make mine 13 feet deep x 8 feet wide x 7 feet tall on the inside so that I can dry up to 12 foot lumber.  I will be pouring my slab with insulation underneath as shown in the plans.  

Does anyone have any tips or suggestions that aren't covered in the Nyle plans?  Maybe something that you wished you had done differently.

Other question is around adding heat lamps for sterilization.  Would I need to go with (4) 500 watt heat lamps to get up to those temps?  I am Virginia, so our Winters are not very extreme.  We rarely get into single digits (°F).  

[doc henderson]

You've Probably Never Seen A Concrete Pour Like This Before, Insulated Kiln Slab - YouTube

here is the slab video.  several others by Nathan or out of the woods.  lots of info here if you search, then ask specific questions.

[WDH]

From back wall to front if only 8 feet deep is not enough.  You need about 2 feet from the doors to the wood, then about 2 feet from the wood to the dehumidification unit, and the another foot and a half to the back wall for the dehumidification unit to sit in.  If your lumber packs are 4 foot wide, then make the depth from back wall to front a minimum of 10 feet. 

If you want to dry 12 foot lumber, and you have trim added on the lumber, say 4 to six inches, you need a minimum of 6 inches on each side to clear the wall, so 13 feet inside dimension is not enough.  You will tear up the side walls if you are loading with a piece of equipment. 

7 feet high is not high enough if you plan to load the kiln with a tractor with front end loader or skid steer or forklift  as you will not be able to load the kiln to capacity.  The mast on the forks with hit the top of the kiln if you try to load more than one or two packs of lumber.  If you plan to load the kiln by hand THAT IS A VERY BAD PLAN.  You will quickly find out that it way too labor intensive to load and unload by hand and using a tractor with FEL or skidsteer with pallet forks, etc. is much much faster and efficient.

[Larry]

Still making tweaks on my L53 to find out what works so only have two comments.

I couldn't find a box I liked to house the control unit so I made one out of metal.  Pretty simple when I have a plasma and welder.  I thought I made it plenty big enough but found out later it should be insulated and have a light bulb for winter heat.  A thermostat for the light bulb is also nice.  When I got the insulation and light bulb installed I was out of room.  Now I want to put in a controller for halogen light bulbs for auxiliary heat....no room left.

The L53 pretty much maxes out a 20 amp circuit.  Run an additional circuit for auxiliary heat.

[blackhawk]

WDH - I will be loading via a cart from the front.  The doors will be on the 8 feet wide end and I will push the loaded cart into the kiln.  It will be 13 feet deep on the inside, so if the 12' lumber is cut 12'6", it should still have room for it to fit.  This matches the Nyle plans that I linked.  The 7 feet height is to keep down the size of the kiln interior to have less volume to heat.  Since I won't have a tractor in there, 7 feet is enough to keep me from banging my head.

Larry - Good point on heating the control unit.  I saw that in the manual you were supposed to keep the control unit from freezing.  Kind of odd they designed it that way.  Tons of electronics are left out in the dead cold without problems, just look at all the electronics on cars these days.  Anyway, I'll make my box big enough for a light bulb like you suggest.

Brad

[K-Guy]

Kind of odd they designed it that way.

There is a reason for that...cost. We were trying to keep the cost down to make it affordable. We were afraid of moisture condensing and freezing on the circuit board and then shorting it out when you turn the kiln on. 

Other than a light on a t-stat you could wrap the control box in self-regulating heat tape of the type used on exposed water lines but it still needs to be in an insulated box.

[customsawyer]

I agree with WDH. For you to stick 12' 6" lumber in a 13' hole then every board has to be stacked perfectly even on the ends. This is do able if you stack up against a stop or plate on the end. Otherwise it could add extra work trimming everything just right. A extra foot in length and width isn't going to add very much to your cost per load to dry and even less in a cost per bf.
The most efficient way to run my kiln is to reload it right after I unload it. This keeps your chamber up to temp so you aren't having to heat all the walls and concrete back up.   

[YellowHammer]

I use waterproof truck tool boxes for our multiple Nyle kiln controller units.  Heavy gauge metal, not insulated, and plenty of room.  Mount them right to the side of the kiln unit with screws and done....

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/tractor-supply-36-in-steel-underbody-box

Protect the LCD display from wide temperature swings, or it will fail.  I've gone through several displays, about $500 each, and have one now that blacks out anytime the box temperature gets to about 95F which is most of summer in Alabama, otherwise it works fine.  So protect it.  I haven't replaced it yet, because now it will work all winter and it gives me an excuse to call Stan (K-Guy) at Nyle and chat with him occasionally.  

Install a wall mount outlet inside the controller box when you do the wiring and plug in a low wattage light bulb, which is also used as heat in the winter and keeps the unit from freezing.  No condensation.

Cut a 3" hole in the side of the box and install a computer cooling fan, $15.  That will keep it cool in the summer.

I agree, make the door chamber bigger.  The heart of the kiln chamber are the door seals.  If they are damaged, you are out of action until they get fixed because you can't run and heat the system with door leaks.  All it takes is one bump with the forklift or loader and it's a bad day.

Put blocks down on the floor for the lumber pack runners and pour 5 gallons of silver sealcoat on the concrete.  It's a horrible mess but it will cure out in time.  I have not found a better kiln floor sealer.

Use both manual and auto vents for the kiln chamber.  The auto vent louvers leak, so will not allow efficient high temerpature heating.  So mount the auto louvers on one side of the wall and then the Nyle manual closing lids to the other side.  So now they can be fully closed doing the sterilization cycle.  Or buy lots of duct tape and get ready to tape the vents closed during the winter.

Use 500 watt halogen work lights for aux heat, $15 each at Lowes.  I have 2,000 watts in mine and that works fine.  

When you think you've used enough insulation....use more.

Mount several extra fans on the fan deck to improve airflow, I have 4.

Cut a big hole in the bottom of the L53 similar to the front air hole to allow air to come on though the bottom, as well as the front.  it will greatly increase airflow through the unit and also increase moisture removal by about 30%.  

The L53 is a good machine.    

 

[WDH]

 

 

My control box is under a roof and mounted on the back of the kiln chamber.  This pic was before everything was painted Bulldog red.

Below is a pic of the hole in the bottom of the unit that Yellowhammer references allowing more airflow to the condenser. 



 


Below is a view of the bottom hole cutout in the bottom of the unit with the cover removed.




 

A baffled load.  You can see the 4 extra fans on the back fan deck. 



 

[blackhawk]

WDH and Yellowhammer - Thank you very much for the info and pictures!  Extremely helpful.

Do you know the model number of the extra Mechatronics fans that you used?  I read in another thread that these were the same as what is used inside the L53.  I couldn't find a thread that mentioned the model number though.

Yellowhammer - Could you elaborate a little more on the vent louvers?  First, the powered vent goes on the same wall as the L53 main unit near the floor, correct?  Are you saying to add an extra set of louvers to the powered vent opposite the existing louvers so that the powered vent can be sealed off better?

I found out from K-Guy that the temperature probes are 32 feet long and you can buy a control cable to match.  With that length, I may be able to reach my insulated garage and mount the controller in there, so it will always be dry and kept from extreme temps.

Brad

[WDH]

UF25HC12 BTH  Mechatronics fan with the metal backplate.  Do not buy the ones with the black plastic back plate. The black plastic back plate will get hot and the screws holding it on will wallow out and the fan might fall into your heater coils ruining them.  The UF25HC12 BTH fans are difficult to find. 

[YellowHammer]

Yes, use a manual vent to fully close the auto vents, they leak a lot, so two vents on each opening.  Actually, and this will make Stan cringe, I simply foamed up the non powered vent, the L53 doesn't need two fully functioning vents, no more than a pair of boxer underwear needs a trap door flap on the back. ;D ;D ;D

So I have only been using one vent for a couple years, as there is enough spillage to properly vent the kiln.  One less thing to worry about.

I don't have the model number of the upgraded fan motors handy, but WDH has them.  

[blackhawk]

WDH and Yellowhammer - Much thanks again.

Those Mechatronics fans look like they are out of stock everywhere until March 2023!!!!

I found an Orion fan on Digikey and it is actually rated to 176F and is all metal except for the fan blades.  (Called the manufacturer to confirm.)  I may try these:  axial fan with metal housing

[WDH]

blackhawk, most excellent.  Those 850 CFM fans are perfect.  I am going to order a couple too as the Mechatronics fans are on backorder. 

[Larry]

My plan was to load my kiln with one pack of 600 board foot plus some.  It was really difficult with 4' long forks on the forklift because the mast hit the top of the kiln.  I used web strapping to get the packs in and out but it was awkward and time consuming.  What I needed was fork extensions but something happened every time I ordered.  Out of stock or back ordered until the next century than I would forget until I had to unload the kiln.

Made a set 6' long a few weeks ago.  They work great!  Still have to weld on a chain on the back to hold them in place and a little paint would be nice. :

[K-Guy]

Larry
If you look online for fork extensions, you can see how the weld a loop on the back that holds them on but allows picking them up without having to get off your equipment.


Also for everybody, Yellowhammer can testify that a post to stop your pack from hitting the equipment is a good idea. Right Robert??  smiley_jester

[Don P]

I have intended to do that and drill a couple of those tall bike flags into the slab at the back stop point.

I was wondering something the other day. Assuming the same insulation levels in a container kiln and a site built kiln. Does the slab floor consume more energy?

[YellowHammer]

Yeah, it is possible, once in a while, to run the wood against the kiln machine and crush it like a beer can. Of course if Nyle built them out of 1/2" armor plate instead of tin foil, they would survive the crash. :D :D

[doc henderson]

Well Don, I am sure you know that the concrete floor and the container floor can both loose heat.  Insulation is the amount of resistance or slowing of that loss.  A concrete slab can be insulated and or at least have a "thermal break", so it is not in contact with soil.  this stops the direct transfer of heat.  the amount of transfer also is dependent on the gradient or difference in temp of the two items.  If you are heating a space in winter, it will lose heat to the cooler environment in an attempt to heat the entire world.  Our goal is to slow the loss to make a certain space conditioned to the specs we want and minimize the energy expenditure.  In the dead of winter, the temp below ground is somewhat constant.  so, a basement slab has a lesser gradient then say the exposed walls.  you can also heat the soil and decrease the gradient, but this takes more energy initially.  A thermal mass can also even out temp changes and why we like the floor heat systems in a shop.  if you open a big door and lose heat, it feels comfy again soon after you close the door as the floor is radiating heat.  Like stepping into the sunshine.  So, a floor does not consume heat but transfers it based on gradient.  We can try to mitigate this, but insulation material also has an expense.  

In my shop basement floor, I put down heavy plastic then covered it with sand.  I insulated the stem walls and placed a thermal break between the walls and floor slab.  I use dimple board and that provided and air space, that also serves as a French drain should there ever be water in the basement.  dry sand insulates, wet sand does not.

[Don P]

I'll ask it another way, does it take more energy to run the oven with a big turkey vs a small one or is it the same no matter the mass inside the insulated box?

[YellowHammer]

It will take a slightly but noticeably longer time to heat up the big turkey, but in reality, the length of time to cook the turkey will be based on whether it's thawed or still frozen, or how wet the wood is when you put it in.

If you use several thousand pounds of top weights, and do hot kiln swaps, then the heat up time is much faster because the mass of the weight will heat up the kiln much faster than the electric strips themselves.  Thermal ballast.

[K-Guy]

Robert is correct(I hate saying that. ;D) but another factor is if the slab is insulated or not. Insulated containers also do not have insulated floors and that can make a difference.

[doc henderson]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_thermal_unit

more water takes more heat to increase the temp.  so, more wood takes more heat, or same heat for more wood takes longer.  I think to compare the container vs the slab, you need to know more about the two in terms of insulation.  for things "mostly water" the btu definition helps.  more water takes more heat.  with thermal mass such as weight and concrete, there is energy to load it with heat that delays the temp rise in the kiln, and a prolonged cooling off (loss of heat) after it is turned off.  so, I like that many (Jake and Robert) try to quickly change out the kiln without letting things cool off.

[Larry]

When I built my kiln I put 1-1/2" of foam down before pouring the slab.  I also wrapped the edges of the slab with the same stuff.

Seemed like it was taking far too long to heat up especially in cold weather.  I bought the cheap Harbor Freight laser temperature gun.  Brought the kiln up to operating temperature for a couple of days.  Checked temperature of all the walls and ceiling.  They were all within a few degrees of each other.  The floor was about 10 degrees cooler.  I reasoned that the concrete was acting as a heat sink.  With this in mind I built a R-30 insulated floor on top the concrete....had extra height in the kiln to allow this.  Kiln comes up to temperature both for drying and heat treating much faster.  Walls, ceiling, and floor are now all the same temperature (within a couple degrees).  I thought this was a worth while improvement for my kiln.

[YellowHammer]

I sprayed foam insulation on the concrete floor and it helped my kiln also. 

[doc henderson]

YH did you have framing to spay into on the floor then cover with sheathing?

[YellowHammer]

No, I sprayed it directly onto the concrete floor including the oak leaves, the bark chips, even the dead bugs.  I had a couple extra cans left over and wasn't expecting to, so didn't clean the floor.  I just sprayed everything.  I have concrete riser blocks that are about 3" tall that the runners of the pallets sit on, so nothing really ever touches the floor.  I sprayed the floor between the risers and so it looks like it snowed inside.  the foam also glues the riser blocks down so locks them in place also.  One of the main reasons I wanted to use the spray foam was to completely and permanently seal up all the cracks on every joint, including the floor to ceiling, as well as all the other possible leaks.

As easy as it was to do, I wish I had done it years ago.    

[customsawyer]

I dry a good bit of pine. I don't have to air dry it before I put it in the kiln but it sure helps. The dryer it is going in allows me to get the temp up quicker or to put more wood in each load. I've broken so many of the Nyle rules that it isn't even funny. Keep in mind that pine is about as easy to dry as it gets.

[YellowHammer]

Rules are meant to be broken, because rules are usually just suggestions anyway. :D :D  
And @customsawyer Jake ain't one for coloring in the lines anyway!  Me either...so I said, "the heck with it" and sprayed the floor with foam before I could back out and say "This is crazy."  Lots of stink bugs are now entombed in the foam.   :D :D

[K-Guy]

I think Jake writes his contracts in crayon too. :D

Because that way there are no gray areas.

[customsawyer]

Some of them crayons don't taste bad either so I've been told from some of my Marine friends. :D

[blackhawk]

I wanted to see if anyone can see any faults with my plan for the power vent.  The way it is designed, it mounts with the fan side against the interior walls, blowing to the outside.  The whole thing will end up sticking out into my kiln about 12".  Plus the louvers will be on the inside of the kiln.  My plan is to remove the louvers and mount them with the flange side against the outside wall as shown in the 2nd pic below.  Then I will flip the fan over to blow in the opposite direction.  I am also going to rotate the connection box 90 degrees on the side.  Doing this, I can push the sheet metal frame into my wall all the way up against the connection box.  This will only leave about 4 inches sticking out into the kiln this way.  The fan will be blowing towards the louvers, pushing them open instead of sucking them open.  The louvers on the outside will now keep the critters out.  (May have to add a little flashing on the top of the louver frame for rain.)



 

[K-Guy]

I doubt it will work, your unit will not have enough airflow to keep critters out. I have spoken to people that tried an idea they had many times over the years and they rarely work.

[blackhawk]

Keeping the critters out is not my main goal.  The main purpose is to reduce the depth that the powered vent protrudes inside of my kiln.  I want to mount the louvers on the outside and have the fan push the louvers open.  Then I can mount the sheet metal shroud deeper into the wall cavity.  The 2nd benefit of this is having the louvers on the outside will provide a more finished look.

[Larry]

The design is a bit on the clunky side and like you I had the same thoughts.  After more thinking I didn't want to bury the electric connection box in the wall and the projection of the unit in the chamber is not a problem as it is unusable space.  My vent is on the same wall as the compressor.

I ended up mounting as Nyle intended.  I lined the hole to the outside with aluminum.  On the outside I fabricated a vent with a cedar frame, plexiglass fixed louvers, and backed with screen to keep bugs out.  If the fan quits, replacement will be fairly easy and quick.

After I got it installed, I put 3" of rigid foam around it with a flap for the intake if I want to completely shut it down, like for heat treating.

[blackhawk]

I went ahead and tried reversing the vent fan.  It works perfect in this orientation.  The louvers open right up with no problem.  Actually, the louvers are designed to open with a fan pushing them open per the manufacturer's instruction sheet that was in the box.  Here is a pic with the fan running showing the louvers open.  I rotated the connection box as shown in the pic.  I am not going to mount the connection box inside the wall but I will push the sheet metal into the wall until it hits the box.  

[Larry]

Looks good.

[trimguy]

@blackhawk , what size did you end up building your camber ? I'm doing plans now to build one and the size I came up with is bigger than what is in the Nyle manual. Or any one else?

[blackhawk]

I built mine to the largest size listed in the manual.  On the inside, I am 13 feet long x 8 feet wide x 7 feet tall.

[doc henderson]

the volume of wood is limited by the water removal rate and why you can do more Oak than Pine as the rate is slower.  the different dimensions are in part to accommodate longer boards, if that is in your future.  I believe the DH will be more efficient at higher RH and why you do not just put the DH in a warehouse.

[trimguy]

Thanks Blackhawk. Doc that makes sense with the high humidity here in Georgia. The L53 is rated for 300 ft of pine/ softwood, if it was air dried to say 15-20% what would be a realistic footage that you could put in it ? @K-Guy 

[doc henderson]

air dried I am sure it would/could be more, but I do not know a number.  starting wet it pine has to go fast and therefore less water/wood.  oak has to go slow so more wood and helps limit the rate per board foot and matching the removal rate for oak.  you might be able to look at a schedule and see the removal rate per day and settings for that wood and up the payload to use the max water removal for the kiln with what is needed from the wood.  

[trimguy]

I didn't think about looking at a schedule that way. I will see. I'm probably over thinking it, but I'm not sure if the L53 is large enough 
( probably is ) but wasn't wanting the extra expense of the 200 or of running it. If I build a chamber for the 53, it's not like I can just add on to it for an upgrade. 

[YellowHammer]

Thanks Blackhawk. Doc that makes sense with the high humidity here in Georgia. The L53 is rated for 300 ft of pine/ softwood, if it was air dried to say 15-20% what would be a realistic footage that you could put in it ? @K-Guy

1,000 bdft.  

[trimguy]

Thanks Robert.

[blackhawk]

I am finally ready to load some lumber in my kiln.  I put in four 2000 watt halogen work lights like YellowHammer suggested.  I mounted these to the ceiling with 1/2" conduit straps.  I thought this would distribute the heat better as the fans would blow across them.  They are still high enough that I don't hit my head and won't interfere with my baffle. 

Anyone know of any reason that this wouldn't work?


<br

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[YellowHammer]

They just need to be easy to access to change $3 bulbs occasionally.  

[firefighter ontheside]

Four 2000w lights or four 500w lights for a total of 2000?  I have four 500's based on Robert's suggestion a few years ago.  Mine are mounted on the wall.  I have mine pointed down at the pile and not at the wall.

[blackhawk]

Four 2000w lights or four 500w lights for a total of 2000?  I have four 500's based on Robert's suggestion a few years ago.  Mine are mounted on the wall.  I have mine pointed down at the pile and not at the wall.

Yea, my fingers were typing faster than my brain.  Four 500 watt lamps for a total of 2000 watts.  If I had 8000 watts, this kiln could double as a tanning bed!

[doc henderson]

My only suggestion (out of an abundance of caution) would be to shoot a non contact temp of the ceiling surface.  if concrete ok, but painted plywood may at least degrade, but unlikely worst senecio could be fire.  you could easily cover with a reflective meatal shield.

What is the fan type/ID.  if you do not mind

[Larry]

I haven't made it through a whole year using the halogen lights and still learning.  Just idle musings. 

I found it is no fun trying to change a light bulb in a hot kiln.  I'm going to change the way they are mounted so I can easily get them lower to change out a bulb.  I don't want to spend any more time than necessary in there.

With the lights mounted to a wood ceiling I would worry about fire....maybe I'm a worry wart.  I mounted my lights half way between the ceiling and my wood stack.

I'm controlling my lights with a Inkbird line voltage thermostat mounted near the Nyle controller.  They can be had with different inputs, the one I ordered has two temperature probes.  I mounted one high and one low so I can see if I have any temperature difference....I do and plan to correct it with improved air flow.  The Inkbird has been flawless and turns off right at my set temperature and comes back on when the temperature drops 3 degrees.  I could tighten up the swing.

Being the curious type I measured the amp draw of one light with my amp meter.  It was 4.4 amps which is a little higher than ohms law calculated so maybe my meter is off or something else.  In any case 4 lights pretty much use up a 20 amp circuit.  I was going to put another fan or two on the circuit but don't know if that is possible.  Actually it looks like I can heat up in the winter with just 2 lights, maybe 3 to get to sterilization temperature.  Need more experience before I'm sure.

[customsawyer]

I have been through a few of these lights. After you change the bulbs a few times something will happen where they mount, and they will quit working. I replaced the little ones with a set that is mounted on a stand with three legs. They are actually a little cheaper than buying two separate lights. The stand also makes it easier to move them around a little if needed. 

[blackhawk]

My only suggestion (out of an abundance of caution) would be to shoot a non contact temp of the ceiling surface.  if concrete ok, but painted plywood may at least degrade, but unlikely worst senecio could be fire.  you could easily cover with a reflective meatal shield.

What is the fan type/ID.  if you do not mind

Doc - The fans are made by Orion and I bought them from Digi-Key:  https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/orion-fans/OA254AN-11-1WBXC/2620965  They have more CFM and a higher temp rating than the ones that Nyle uses.  They are also a direct replacement for the Nyle ones, if they ever go out.

I ran one of the lights for over 2 hours last night before I read your post.  I never noticed or smelled anything getting hot.  I'll check tonight with my IR thermometer as your suggested.  When I mounted the lights, I kept them on the stand that came with them so they are the same distance from the ceiling as they would be from the top of a shelf.

Larry - I wired my lights via a relay to the Nyle controller heat output signal.  This way they only turn on when the Nyle calls for heat.  With K-Guy's help, I wired them in before the compressor contactor so they can turn on even when the compressor is running.  (The Nyle internal heater cuts off when the compressor is on so the unit doesn't overdraw on amperage.)

[doc henderson]

I know they get hot, and the bight light on the ceiling close to them caught my eye.  you could direct them down more also if it is hot.  what material is the ceiling constructed from?

[blackhawk]

1/2" CDX pressure treated plywood with 2 coats of aluminum roof paint.  The aluminum roof paint will also help to reflect the heat.

[doc henderson]

As a representative of the safety committee (not),  you get my blessing!  carry on!

[Larry]

Larry - I wired my lights via a relay to the Nyle controller heat output signal.  This way they only turn on when the Nyle calls for heat.

That's a great idea.

[YellowHammer]

The key to not having to change lights bulbs in a hot kiln is to mount spare light and keep them off until a bulb fails in the middle of a run.  Then activate a one of the spares and back up to full power.  Then change the bulb at the end of the cycle.  

[blackhawk]

My ceiling was right at 150F in the hottest spot with zero airflow.  That was with the light pointing down.  With the light facing the wall, it dropped down to 142F.  I think the reason for that is when the light is tilted down the back of the housing gets much closer to the ceiling.  I really don't think it was that hot though.  I think the aluminum paint was throwing off my IR thermometer reading.  The reason is that I could put my hand on the ceiling directly over the light and I could hold it there as long as I wanted.  From the internet, a true 140F surface can only be touched for 5 seconds or less.

I'm glad that I looked at this closer though.  I did notice that the cord on the two lights facing towards the fans was routed directly over the light so it was staying pretty hot.  I'm going to turn those two lights 180 degrees like the others so that the cord is away from the heat.

Yellowhammer - Good idea on having a spare light.

[blackhawk]

The key to not having to change lights bulbs in a hot kiln is to mount spare light and keep them off until a bulb fails in the middle of a run.  Then activate a one of the spares and back up to full power.  Then change the bulb at the end of the cycle.  

You jinxed me on this.  I looked in my kiln last night and 3 out of my 4 bulbs had already burned out!  I bought all 4 lights at Tractor Supply.  They probably had less than 30 hours of burn time before they burned out.  I changed them out inside the kiln.  I could reach them without too much trouble.  I changed out one at a time and cooled off outside the kiln for a few minutes between each change.  

I have the 4 lights divided between two circuits in my kiln.  I fixed the first 2, turned them on and then turned off the other circuit.  Got in there and of course, mistakenly opened up the light that had been working that I had just turned off.  Luckily I had on gloves to keep oil off my hands from getting on the bulbs.  I pulled out that hot bulb and it immediately started melting my cloth gloves.  I noticed right away before it melted through.  Laid the hot bulb on my foam baffle and it started melting through the foam!  Still had my glove on and grabbed it real quick and threw it on the floor.  

[doc henderson]

thanks for sharing your lessons learned.

[Don P]

I can't remember if I've mentioned it, this last load was well air dried but really little water out the tube. I started looking around in the chamber, we need to recoat, it has shrunk and popped joints all over the place. I suspect "heat and vent" works but that's probably a 'spensive and poorly controlled way to do it.

[YellowHammer]

The lights should last many months, 6 months to a year is what I normally get, sometimes more, not just a few days. 

[blackhawk]

One of my new light bulbs that I just put in has already burned out.  I bought those bulbs from Lowe's, some FEIT brand.  Local Wal-Mart sells Philips brand for $1.50 less per bulb than Lowe's.  Hopefully, the name brand ones will be better, at least they are cheaper.

[btulloh]

How are you handling the bulbs?  Hopefully using a rag or something so you don't touch the glass with bare skin.  That is usually mentioned on the package as direct contact with the glass envelope will cause premature failure. Pretty unusual to have so many failures that fast.

[blackhawk]

I was wearing gloves the whole time.

[YellowHammer]

Something isn't right, maybe you are getting voltage spikes or something that is shortening the life of the bulbs?  

I use these lights as heat during the wintertime in my well pump house to keep it from freezing, and they will last at least that long.  

Are you turning them off when regular drying?  The only time they should be on is for sterilization.  

[customsawyer]

I saw earlier you mentioned using cloth gloves. I think something has gotten on the gloves or your skin oils have traveled through them. I leave my lights on all the time and normally get 6 months or more out of them.

[Don P]

disable the hi limit and hang a baseboard heater?

[blackhawk]

I think the original set of bulbs were just low quality.  Each light cost only $25 which included the bulb, so I expect the bulbs were the cheapest in China.  The one new bulb that burned out from Lowes, I'm not sure.  I remember that one barely touched my bare skin on the back of my knuckle for a half second.  I was using a glove on my right hand and I lost my grip and kept the bulb from falling by steadying with my bare knuckle of my left hand.  That took half a second but maybe they are that sensitive or it could have just been a bad bulb from the get go.  

I just finished up my sterilization cycle and all 4 bulbs survived that at 140F.  I have the lights tied in with the heat relay in the L53 control so they only turn on when the unit calls for heat.  Yellowhammer mentioned that he only used his lights for sterilization.  That got me thinking, so I turned off my lights the day before I started sterilizing.  It was a cool day in the low 40s and just the L53 heat strip was able to maintain the kiln at 120F.  In my next run, I'm just going to try using the heat strips to maintain temperature and see how it goes.  I wonder if that will use less electricity over the full kiln run.  The heat strips will be on longer without the help of the lights but it will be a good experiment.  I tracked my KWh usage so I can compare.

[K-Guy]

I use these lights as heat during the wintertime

During those bitterly cold blizzards you get during the winter in Alabama?  smiley_nananana

[YellowHammer]

Yep, I think it's supposed to drop into the high 70's this week.  Can't be too careful.

[Don P]

Resistance heat is the same no matter how you do it. If the unit can keep up there is no advantage to running the lights, there is no penalty either. It can be oil filled radiators, electric baseboard, five 100 watt incandescent bulbs or one 500 watt halogen... despite what the electric heater of the year this year says, resistance heat is all the same heat production per kw. 

[Larry]

So....I load a cold kiln and turn on the Nyle heater along with the lights to reach operating temperature.  Much faster than relying on the Nyle heater by itself.

Which method is the cheapest way?  I don't think any difference in quality.  I'm usually not in any hurry to get a load done.

[GBar]

Blackhawk and others,

I'm new to this forum, but wanted to chime in here on heating. First, you guys are well ahead of me with the L53 system, I'm jealous.  I have a small DH kiln in northern VA with a home DH unit, but considering the L53 for increased performance...but that is another issue.

Here is a tip to advance all your systems and throw away the light bulbs.  I have a small PTC heater on a PENN /Johnson controller.  PTC stands for Positive Temperature Coefficient.  It is an electric heating technology that is much safer than light bulbs, baseboard heaters, standard space heaters, and strip/tape heating.

The concept works like this (from the company): "PTC has a unique heating property that allows the PTC heat output to be regulated by the airflow applied. The higher the airflow, the higher the heat output and power (wattage). Therefore, depending on the end design, if the ambient temperature is high, the PTC output power will decrease; if the airflow is high with low ambient
temperature, then the PTC output power will increase."

The cost of the PTC was just north of $50. I worked with the company rep for what was on hand for my prototyping. It is a 1000 watt unit.  The Johnson controller cost $68, 3 yrs ago. My next unit will be 1500 watts, if they have an extra unit from a production run.

The PTC technology is used in the automotive industry - school buses use PTC heaters.  Some DH units put PTC heaters in the system for cold environment operations.  Honeywell has a home DH unit that has a PTC integrated into it.

I can set the Johnson controller to what values I want and it nails it to a degree. Have three independent thermistor temp probe systems and all are within a degree.  When sterilizing for bugs, I set the controller at low end to 138 F and high end to 140 F.  My temp recordings show a nice Sine wave with an (on/off) interval approximately 3 to 5 minutes. Since the PTC prototype unit is only 1000 watts, it can take some time to bring to temp (e.g. 50 to 120 degrees)...depending on outside temp, kiln size, insulation, wood mass temp at start, etc., etc. 

One advantage is when doing Oak, I can set the temp to 90 degrees F at the beginning of the green wood schedule and then control the humidity to 90% by other means (small steam generator or venting).  Don't need the DH unit until near 30% MC at the core of the wood with my lignomat PK probe readouts. 

I use AC infinity controller for fans, DH, and steam.  Will be adding automated power venting soon.  Controller is BT & WIFI and can monitor anywhere and control the systems remotely with both temp and humidity triggers.  Other system is an old Fireboard BBQ thermometer with 6 temp probes at key points in the kiln and for temp probe verification of the AC infinity and Johnson probes. AC infinity and Fireboard are charted and recorded on phone/PC.  I do have a lot of challenges with humidity control and this is where the L53 probably excels.

Have one Fireboard temp probe in the Kiln Control Cabinet (affectionately known as the KCC by my wife) on the outside wall.  In the dead of winter, there is enough heat transfer via electrical PVC conduit to the KCC so the temps never hit freezing. there is a water trap for condensed humidity to keep the KCC free from high humidity.

Interested in your thoughts.  This is just a hobby for me.  I'm a test engineer for the DoD/former USAF test pilot on aerospace systems. 

George
P.S. tried to attach photo of the heater, but post exceeded 60K characters. PTC heater with Fan on backside is 5" x 5" x 4"

[doc henderson]

Nice thread and good info.  you can just hit reply again and post the pic.  it should downsize as needed to post.

[Larry]

The heater sounds interesting.  I wouldn't mind replacing my lights with one.  I see Amazon has a bunch of them.  Do you have a name or better yet a link to the one you are using?

[GBar]

Trying to add pictures of the PTC heater.  the "click here to add Photos to Post" requires album to be made.  so I made one and posted to pics.  they do not appear here.
The icons at the top of the msg editor window has one that says,"Insert Image" but it wants a hyperlink, for which there is none.
any help is appreciated.

[GBar]

Larry and all,

My PTC Heater is made by Pelonis in PA.  Here is a link to the company. Pelonis Technologies | Fans, Blowers, Heaters & Motors | Pelonis Technologies, Inc.  In the top of the page (currently), you will see a bunch of products laid out.  In the back is a round black disk with 5 gold small circles.  The PTC I have is just to the right of that disk.  It is about 5X5 and a little less than 3" deep.  mine has one of the small black fans (just to the left and forward of the disk).  The fan is fastened on the back side of the PTC cube.  Mine has a constant speed fan, so control temp with the Penn (Johnson) controller...not variable speed fan.  Go to Supply House and search for A421.  You will see several Johnson controllers.  mine is the A421ABC-02c, which is now $98.03...I paid $68. Johnson is the affiliate company under PENN.

Johnson also makes a controller with a cycle timer for refrigeration, but I just used a Macromatic (www.Macromatic.com) THR-3 Series, programmable multi-function, multi-time range, multi-voltage relay. Wired it inline from the A421, then THR-3, then to the PTC heater.  I set it to a 30 second fan delay to run the fan after the heater is cycled off, just to be safe and have no residual heat in the PTC or housing.  Works very reliable.  All controls and relays are in the Kiln control cabinet outside. Search THR-3816U on Grainger.  it is now $58.81, but again paid way less 2yrs ago. I have a wiring diagram I drew up in PowerPoint, I can share, if someone is interested.  private msg me/email me.  I think I turned that feature on correctly.

I will also reach out to my contact at Pelonis and say others are interested, and see how he wants to proceed.  He is an engineer and not a sales guy...but very helpful.  I just emailed him 2 days ago to see if he has any 1500 watt units left over on production runs.

Here is a link to the PTC heater test in the Taiwan factor. KLC is a Pelonis partner.  I posted it on Youtube.   Pelonis PTC at KLC Factory - YouTube

George
P.S. I'm still looking at the L53.  maybe someday my wife will let me drop the coin.  would be good to have a "real" DH unit made for the harsh environment of acidic oak.

[beenthere]

Trying to add pictures of the PTC heater.  the "click here to add Photos to Post" requires album to be made.  so I made one and posted to pics.  they do not appear here.
The icons at the top of the msg editor window has one that says,"Insert Image" but it wants a hyperlink, for which there is none.
any help is appreciated.

Your pics are in your gallery, and loaded well. Just ready to link to them, as you're just missing the obvious. Easy to do. 

[GBar]

 

 

Thanks Beenthere for the help!
Above, is the Pelonis PTC Heater in the initial testing phase.

Below is last fall's load of white oak


 



 

[blackhawk]

I have not had any more trouble with my halogen lights since I replaced the original set of bulbs.  The bulbs that came with the lights were just very low quality.  With the built in 1000W heater in the Nyle DH unit, I don't have to run the lights once I get up to temperature.  The other plus for me with the lights are the fact that they are "lights".  In the winter, when it gets dark early in the evenings, I need them to be able to see inside the kiln. 

[GBar]

Blackhawk,
Cool. Glad it is working out...and dual purpose is a plus!

G

[TBrown99]

- The fans are made by Orion and I bought them from Digi-Key:  https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/orion-fans/OA254AN-11-1WBXC/2620965  

Are you able to run these at variable speed?

Thanks,

[blackhawk]

Are you able to run these at variable speed?

No idea, you'd need to call the manufacturer.

[Sod saw]

.   


Don,  In your reply # 72 you were talking about resistance heat.

To clear up a common misunderstanding I offer these thoughts.  Nit picky thoughts.

Your statement that all "resistance heat" is the same in not wrong.  If the heat source is strictly resistance, commercially available heaters.  All the energy goes towards making heat.

If there is a fan in said heater then the fan's electric consumption is not producing heat but drawing power and that small power draw is part of the overall "heater" load.

If we look at a light bulb (incandescent) and we touch that bulb we will see that a lot of the power that the electric company is supplying is waisted in heat output.  (not good in the summer when we have air conditioning on).

Let's have the same light as that incandescent bulb without that waisted heat output by replacing that bulb with a florescent light bulb.  We now have fewer watts being used and getting the same useful light, but still a little waisted heat.

Let's change out that florescent bulb and its waisted heat for a LED bulb.  We now have the same useful light brightness as the florescent bulb as well as the incandescent bulb but with almost no waisted heat and very few watts and less expensive to operate.

Let's now look at those quartz halogen lights.  We already know that they are very bright and put out a lot of waisted heat that might be a big load on your air conditioning system.  And you can get the same light out put by changing to LED bulbs for a lot less wattage used and therefore a lot less expensive to operate, , ,  if you are looking for brightness-light.

Let's now flip this waist-versus-function idea upside down.   Let's try to generate heat, not light.

Using those (I do use them in my kiln, thank you Yellowhammer) halogen lights to produce heat is not as economical as using a real heat source.  The high bright light output from those halogen bulbs is considered waisted power since we only need the heat.  All that energy that is being used for light out put is money burned up. 

BUT those quartz halogen lights are cheep to buy and easy to move around as needed and are also easy to store out of the way.  Even though they would not be considered resistance type of heat source.


.

[doc henderson]

SS very good accounting of energy.  Yes the maxim is energy is neither created or destroyed.  so even an old fluorescent ballast that gets hot and makes a humming sound, is wasting energy. unwanted work costs us energy.